The aluminum head issue

[Darryl Roederer]

OK, I knew this one was going to pop up sooner or later.
Let's get the discussion going again, see if we can make these a reality.

There's also a proposal on the table from Mike Tweedy [sp?] of Year-one to have a centrifigual supercharger kit made up for the buick 350, let's discuss this one too.

It all comes down to a money issue, if someone is gonna make these parts for us, it has to be a profitable investment for them.

While were at it, we may as well discuss the [only] weak part in the B-350, the rods.... A 600 horsepower aluminum headed, centrifigual supercharged buick 350 wont due us any good if it will puke up the rods the first time you get on it...

Discussion is now open:laugh:

[72 87 buick]

I really like the idea of the supercharger, "would be cheaper or very close to my roller cam idea" read my other thread on that. Like you said its all about the money, A few months ago memebers of the Turbo Buick commuity wanted billet cranks and everyone wanted one but when it comes down to putting up the money it fell short, And that is where the problem lies getting enough people to say yes and having the money on time. But about the rods "which is what the tread is about" Does anyone know how strong TA's 350 HP Beamed rods are, and how hard would it be for them to make a set of steel billet ones? One other idea might be if we could find a set of chevy, or mopar rod that could fit.... I know I know i commited a sin sorry. :jd:

Sorry for being so long

Robert

[Darryl Roederer]

Mike Tweedy told me he thinks the supercharger could be done for about $2500 for the complete kit.
I'v gotta wonder about that, as the same kit for more popular engines [read SBC, 5.0] run into the $2900-3500 range.

All that's really required for the supercharger kit is a new set of "brackets" to hold it onto the front of the engine, as it would use the same charger, carb box, etc from other apps.

Mike seems to think 500 hp would be a reality, maybe he's right, dunno...

At the 500 hp level, the rods become the issue.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but arent T/A's rods just standard production "cap screw" rods with the side beams polished???

I saw a post on the old board where someone had inquired about a custom set of billett rods from a manufacturer, and got a quote of somewhere in the $1100-1600 range, depending on how many sets they ordered... Volume discount, the more you order, the more you save.

I think if we get the heads or the supercharger to become a reality, the rods will "naturally" follow. The first few sets may be expensive, but once volume begins to flow, the prices will come down.

Wont it be cool when there's a "super 350" class at the nats with 600+ hp GS's, apollo's, and skyhawks running 10's, and still be streetable ??!!??!!

[72 87 buick]

Hey Darryl, I guess I'm up again. The price I think could be very close to that, If you think about it you could use the air box and pipping from another setup "like a chevy, mopar or ford" the only real work would be making up a bracket to hold everything together, like you had said before And your right on the rod thing, I just flipped through my TA book and they are reconditioned steel rods. But like said in my post before what if we found a way around the rod issue by using another set of rod out of another motor, My dad used a set of chevy big block rods in his 440 mopar and hasn't had any trouble with them, but granted i am not sure if he did anything to the crank or not i will have to ask. 1100 to 1600 is a large chunk of change for a set of rods but more than likely worth it, the only problem is the rod price and then the blower price on top. I am still very interested in this though.

Ok enough of my ramblings for now :grin:

Robert

[buick535]

Rods are not a problem, I had a set of aftermarket rods made up several years ago for the 350. They were some very nice forged steel units . The problem on the 350 is rod to cam clearance as the crank swings around. We cured this problem on the aftermarket rods , and believe me , it is a problem on the 350. They were expensive, about $1100, but that was a one off set, doing more quantity would help bring the price down, so if any one really wants some good aftermarket rods, step up to the plate, we can get them done. Jim Burek P.A.E ENTERPRISES

[Darryl Roederer]

Hey there Jim:)
Glad to see you in on this one, as your imput would be most appreciated.
Please tell us a little more about the rods...
Is the cam clearance issue one that could be addressed with a reduced base circle cam? Would that allow for more "meat" to be put on the rods, where it's needed?

Thanks

[TuBBeD]

Hi,
I was reading your post's about the cylinder head's and supercharger's. There might be a few items missed on these subjects as far as the supercharging goes. Does anyone make pistons and cams that are suitable for a Buick 350 blower combination? If they don't, how hard would it be for manufactures to make? And, how expensive would it be, if there was enough interest for the manufacture to do so? Also, would the "stock" bottom-end of a buick 350 withstand that kind of abuse that a blower puts out? I'm asking because, I don't really see anyone manufacturing aftermarket crank's and connecting rod's for handling extreme amounts of horsepower? Also, with the higher compression ratio's of the earlier short block's and factory head's, how hard would it be to lower the compression ratio for the supercharger to run "efficiently" without changing to an aftermarket cylinder head, or installing new pistons? Well, I guess you can run a later year cylinder head to compensate for the compression but, how much work would need to be done? And, how expensive would it be on top the cost of supercharging itself? What I'm trying to get at is, would it be worth-while to do this modification to a Buick 350? If they do make a supercharger but, not the parts' needed to make the engine reliable enough to withstand the horsepower, what good is having a blower? I know it worth a chance to you and me but, would it be to the manufacturer's who are able to produce the parts' needed to make this happen? Also, if a company decides to make a supercharger for the buick 350, how many other manufacturer's are willing to jump on the "bandwagon" to help support this new venture? The more manufacture's involved, the greater chance of this dream becoming a reality! Plus, with this engine being 30+ years old, why didn't they do this earlier? I'm just trying to approach this subject in a down-to-earth, realistic manner. I know there is alot to cover on this subject and it's definitely worth researching. Who know's, maybe if this does get done in the future and they are able to start out-powering the competition, you'll see alot more people interested enough to research farther into making higher-performing 350 buick's. :pp Well, I guess I said enough,LOL. Thanks,
Rob

[GSXMEN]

Darryl - I brought up the billet rods back on the GSCA board. I got a quote from Pauter Machine out in Chula Vista, CA (east of San Diego). They gave pricing as follows:
1 set................$1400
3-8 sets...........$1296
9 or more sets $1066

I'm sure with the right person doing the negotiating, the price could be brought down even more!

Since Jim Burek has already gone down this path, I would defer to his experiences on the 350 rods - especially the rod to cam clearances.

*If anyone wants to check out Pauter's website - http://www.pauter.com/billetrod.htm - they look like they are more than capable of handling all the power any 350 will ever dish out!!

SUPERCHARGER

I believe Mike T. (TA) said he would like to do an Eaton supercharger for the 350. Since I currently drive a 96 SC3800 Riviera, I can only imagine how a SC5700 would drive!! I can't wait to find out though!!!

If someone is going to do a centrifugal supercharger, I would hope that they would go with the ATI Procharger. Something like the P-1SC which is a self-contained unit (you don't need a dedicated oil line). The P-1SC will support 825HP - that should be enough!?! I believe that ATI has the best centrifugal superchargers out there. They also were the first to promote the advantages of intercoolers!! (Looks like Paxton and Vortech have joined in on the intercooling, finally)

With the intercooled Procharger, running 16 lbs. of boost is no big deal-ON 91 octane PUMP GAS!!! You could do this with the 8 or 8.5:1 forged pistons that are already available!! The Chevy LT1 with 10.5 compression runs 10-14 PSI with the P600B or P-1SC!!! Of course the LT1 has reverse cooling - cools the heads first - definitely more boost friendly!!

If we ever get aluminum heads for the 350, I would love to see reverse cooling on them. Smokey Yunick hooked up with AFR years ago, and put out reverse cooled 350 Chevy heads - they work!!

ALUMINUM HEADS

I hope these won't be just an aluminum version of the current head. I believe Mike has the molds for the Stage II V-6 heads. Hopefully, we'll end up with something in the medium to wild range regarding flow and HP capabilities!! Anything less and we might as well stick with what we have now!

350 BLOCK GIRDLE

Can't have a discussion about superchargers, Billet Rods, and Aluminum Heads without discussing a girdle for the 350 mains!!!!

I don't know if anyone is producing one yet, or maybe gearing up for one, but, it DEFINITELY NEEDS DOING!!! Once the rod situation is cured, this 'could' be the next weak link!!

That's enough from me...Next!!

Scott

[Darryl Roederer]

Originally posted by TuBBeD
Does anyone make pistons and cams that are suitable for a Buick 350 blower combination?

Yes, lots of them, Mike T. told me he could do custom grinds, no problem...

Also, would the "stock" bottom-end of a buick 350 withstand that kind of abuse that a blower puts out

The buick 350 is a Y-block configuration, deeeep main skirted, the crank is good and beefey, only the stock cast rods need upgrading.

And, how expensive would it be on top the cost of supercharging itself?

Honestly, not too much more than a regular 350 buildup, just use the 8:1 pistons instead of the 10:1's,,, Mike's "new" blower cam should cost about the same as a regular street cam. The only big expense would be the "new" rods.

Also, if a company decides to make a supercharger for the buick 350, how many other manufacturer's are willing to jump on the "bandwagon" to help support this new venture

T/A is talking about the aluminum heads, Year-1 is talking about the supercharger... The "bandwaggon" already has most of the bigger names on it.

Plus, with this engine being 30+ years old, why didn't they do this earlier

[/b]There simply was no need before now, 455's were in every junk yard in america, SBC's ruled the streets.... People are just now realizing the tremendous potential of the 350, and how it's been overlooked all these years.


Originally posted by GSXMEN
[B]I believe Mike T. (TA) said he would like to do an Eaton supercharger for the 350.

Yes, he does... Just as soon as the aluminum heads come out. He also wants to do a turbo manifold so the GN/T-type boys can quite literally bolt in a 350 in place of their 231's:eek2:
But he wants to wait and do the new manifolds for the aluminum heads to get the most possible HP from the combination

The Chevy LT1 with 10.5 compression runs 10-14 PSI with the P600B or P-1SC!!!

Mike Tweedy seems to think a buick 350 is good for about 20 psi:eek2: and 500 hp.

If we ever get aluminum heads for the 350, I would love to see reverse cooling on them.

More engineering, more custom parts, more $$$, more time...
I'd like reverse cooling too, but for now, I'd be happy to just get the heads or supercharger!!!

I hope these won't be just an aluminum version of the current head. I believe Mike has the molds for the Stage II V-6 heads. Hopefully, we'll end up with something in the medium to wild range regarding flow and HP capabilities!! Anything less and we might as well stick with what we have now!

That's why we dont already have the SC and turbo manifolds, he wants to wait and do them for the new heads, and yes, they would most likely be done based on the stage-2 indy V-6 castings.

Can't have a discussion about superchargers, Billet Rods, and Aluminum Heads without discussing a girdle for the 350 mains!!!!

T/A Mike said he would/could do one once the heads become reality, but it might not be nessecary. The 350 is not a 455's "little brother", it's a much better block all around... Just have to see if one is nessecary once we get these hard core parts:)

[TuBBeD]

Thanks Darryl,
I was asking these questions because, I would really like to see this become a reality and I wasn't sure if people were exploring all the avenues needed for this to become so. But, after reading your post, I see that it will happen soon! It will be sooooo sweet when everything is done, keep the curiosity going!!:pp Also, you said that the 350 is a better block than the 455? How is this so? Thanks, Rob

[btc]

Piston availability shouldn't be a problem. In addition to the selection that TA has, remember that the 350 uses the same pistons as the 231. I don't know about the vavle angles on thw two, but custom valve-reliefs are a fairly minor detail if you already have a high-quality piston available from someone like JE or BME.

[72 87 buick]

The small block is a Y or deep skirt design much like the FE motors of Ford. Where as the 455 isn't. Making the small block more rigid, and also you can make it lighter that way also. Hope this helps a lil bit

Robert

[Chris Cornett]

I would step up and buy a set of heads if they were more than a stock design. I heard that Mike T. was only looking for 20 commited buyers. Is this true? If so. lets get the ball rooling. I understand he needs to be able to profit from this. Lets see what we can do.

[GSXMEN]

Even the deep skirted blocks can benefit from a girdle...just ask the GN guys. 700hp or so from the girdled v-6 block is nothing to sneeze at. An identically prepared 350 would be 933hp(at 116+hp/cylinder)...only time will tell just what these little blocks will take.

I think the future looks good for V-8 Buick performance...just wish it didn't have to take sooo long!!

Scott

[Racin Jason]

Is this setup going to require a fuel injection setup? I see Paxton has come up with a blower setup using a housing around a carb! In their discussions the carb would only handle 8 lbs. of boost. How is this other kit being discussed running 16-18 lbs of boost without fuel injection???

Inquiring minds like mine want to know?

[GS69350]

All I can say is that I really like where this thread is going.

A couple years ago I did a little write up for no reason and I think it is still on the PAE Enterprises (Jim Burek's) website...

And especially now because there is a chance I'll be getting an old "friend" back...

[Darryl Roederer]

Dan-
So your the one who wrote that.
I'v been dealing with the buick 350 for years, always had respect for their ellegant, simple, straight-forward design. A couple years ago, it dawned on me that in all those years, and of all those engines, I'v only managed to blow up only one, and I had never heard of anybody else blowing up any of them...
So I started doing a little research... Your write-up is one of things that got me so worked up and excited about the buick 350...
Thanks man!

Racin Jason-
Not trying to put off your question, just waiting for an e-mail reply from someone who knows a lot more about supercharging than I do... I personally am not really qualified to answer your question, but....

I have seen systems on the internet running 12,14,16+ lbs thru a carb, so I know it's possible.

Might have something to do with either the stock fuel pump not pushing enough pressure for more than 8 lbs. [easy, upgrade to aftermarket high pressure electric] Or, the floats could colapse [sp?] in a stock carb above 8 lbs. [requiring upgrade to special "blower" floats ?????]

I'll have a proper answer for ya [hopefully] soon!

[Racin Jason]

It's not a problem Darryl. I haven't done alot of research on this subject. I have been to alot of the "Fast Ford Weekends" (oxy moron--ha ha) and seen alot of impressive things out of these types of superchargers!!

My pockets are very shallow, but the thought crossed my mind. I have alot of room on the front of my 350. I am only running the alt, and water pump with an electric fan. I have the what if's.

Let's all try together to make this a reality!!!!! :TU:

Keep up the good work!!

[Darryl Roederer]

I'v been waiting for a reply from the guy I know who is into supercharging, but no dice.... Guess he's busy or something.
So I asked Mike Tweedy by e-mail...

I'v "pieced together" a proper reply to the 20 psi on a carb question, here it is...


Due to the endothermic reaction that occurs with carburetted engines, they can actually use more boost than EFI engines. (The endothermic reaction has to do with the cooling of the fuel as it atomizes from liquid to gas.)

At 7-8.0:1 compression with good gas, mixture, spark control 12-20 psi! 9-10.0:1 viable but boost levels would be lower or race gas used. Bear in mind most EFI systems only use 6-8 psi and make TONS of power!

Think about this: forged 8.5:1 replacement pistons, PROPERLY prepped 73-up capscrew rods with ARP fasteners, maybe a set of head studs and NOTHING ELSE. A stock Buick built for reliability with around 250 REAL hp. It would take around 15-17 psi to create a 100% hp gain (500hp). That should be possible with the correct pulley, properly sized
intercooler, and fuel system.

Now, having said that. The options are mind boggling. You could
supercharge anything from a bone stock flog engine to a 400hp built 350. The level of boost would have to be tailored accordingly. Intercooling would allow more boost, non-intercooled less. If you want more than 500hp, fine, but you're gonna have to pony up the bucks for billet rods and other premium components. Everything is available, just open up your
wallet...Ouch!

[all quoted from Mike Tweedy]

[GS69350]

That said, would 20psi blow the gaskets out of the carb??

Not to mention the carb would have to be built to very tight specs, a lot of q-jets have tiny tiny vaccum leaks around the throttle shafts, imagine what one would do at 20psi...

And I second the thing about 7-8psi putting out a lot of power, I had an 88 RX-7 TurboII (turbo charged 1.3l EFI rotary engine) and for 1.3L at 7psi of boost it pulled harder than my GS 350.

I'd love to turbocharge a 350... I heard someone mention that TA may be designing a turbo setup for the 350 that is based on the turbo6 (GN T-type) setup... that would be FUN

[buick535]

Originally posted by SprtWgn72
That said, would 20psi blow the gaskets out of the carb??

Not to mention the carb would have to be built to very tight specs, a lot of q-jets have tiny tiny vaccum leaks around the throttle shafts, imagine what one would do at 20psi...

And I second the thing about 7-8psi putting out a lot of power, I had an 88 RX-7 TurboII (turbo charged 1.3l EFI rotary engine) and for 1.3L at 7psi of boost it pulled harder than my GS 350.

I'd love to turbocharge a 350... I heard someone mention that TA may be designing a turbo setup for the 350 that is based on the turbo6 (GN T-type) setup... that would be FUN


Something to think about here, if you are going to supercahrge any engine, and use a blow through the carb set-up, which is the easiest to do, you cannot use a qj carb, or even a thermo quad.
Why you ask? I'll tell you, the accelerator pump is out side the air cleaner or bonnet on these carbs, as you pressurize the carb, you also pressurize the float bowl, and thus you will then have more pressure inside the float bowl than out side, where the accel pump is at, you will blow fuel all over the place, that is why you only see holley style carbs on these types of blower set-ups.
This is from the old school of been there done that before.
We stuck a 1000 cfm on an ATI supercharged big block chevelle and just took it out in the driveway, took the boost up to about 3 to 4 psi, cmae back, opened the hood and found an engine compartment covered with gas.
SOme thing else about blow through the carb set-ups, we found jetting had to go down with the blower not up. This gets into a fairly lenghty expalnation so I won't do it here. Jim Burek

[sbbuick]

I'd buy a set of these heads in a minute, if I could.

Please know that I have a lot of respect for Mike T. Without his company, we'd have nearly nothing for our high performance 350" engines. I have spoken with him a number of times in the past, and I will be sending him an E Mail shortly. I posted this idea on another thread, but I really feel that it fits here as well.

If Mike is looking for 20 serious buyers, why not post this, or at least mention it on his web site?
It costs almost nothing to add a comment about this "project" in his "what's new" section - or wherever he deems appropriate.

This would be a great way to get a feel for the real market response, and it's so easy to do.
Maybe he's waiting to get other projects completed before tearing into this one?

[Chris Cornett]

I'm with you. I would definitely step to a set of good heads for my GS 350.

[Fox's Den]

Anybody trying to do the supercharger set up on the 350 now?

[sean Buick 76]

Anybody trying to do the supercharger set up on the 350 now?

Bobb Mackley MIGHT be offering a kit.

[Fox's Den]

That would be cool if he has that going on. You going to get that Turbo project on the road this year or are you still on your Honeymoon LOL. Someone needs to bust a nut on their 350 projects and I know you have been working on this for a while. I know I can't do anything right now school has me completely bogged down and money is real tight. I couldn't even get to the track last year because of this and it might just take a while before I get back.

[sean Buick 76]

Things are coming allong, this summer I hope to start boosting!:3gears: