I think,i`m in oil pump trouble

[staged67gspwr]

Well i went to fire up the GS today and noticed the oil pressure gauge dropping slowly till it stayed at around 2-5 lbs,i took the gauge apart thinking it might be clogged but i started the engine and still no oil coming out of the line,mind you now oil light hasnt come on,next thing now is i`m thinking its the oil pump,guys i`m gonna need help since i never fooled with a Nailhead oil pump or a nailhead before,do i need to pull the motor?will pan come off without pulling motor?does tranny have to come back?do i have room to do this under the car?where do i get a quality oil pump from?how about clearances and stuff?is it the same as a 400-430-455?please i need help.:(

[Mark Ascher]

George,
Do yourself a favor - call Carmen Faso, J&C's Parts.
716-693-4090

He can answer all that and more.

Mark

[71GS455]

George,

Is it possible that it just sat a while and lost it's prime? My mom's 62 Skylark (215 - V8) would lose it's prime once in a while.

If that's the case you'll have to open it up and pack it with some vaseline to get it pulling again.

[staged67gspwr]

but the thing is i started her up the previous day as well and oil press. was fine?:Do No:

[Mark Ascher]

George,

Remove the gauge and hook it up right where it comes out of the block. Sounds like the line could be plugged with????

If the engine isn't starting to make deadly noises, I would investigate the easy stuff before tearing into it.

Mark

[staged67gspwr]

Mark,i thought of that so i disconnected the gauge from the copper tubing but nothing was coming out,then after a while the lifters started to make noise and shut her down thereafter,do u think its the oil pump?i really dont know these motors so i dont know what else to look for,motor never had any ticks,knocks,or smoke blowing out,she ran like a clock with 40lbs. od oil pressure, so i really dont know what could of caused this?any ideas?


Thanks

[Mark Ascher]

George,

Well, a couple things come to mind, but I'm just sittin here at the keyboard and not in your garage, so here goes:

Maybe the oil pump drive broke. You need to yank the distributor and see if the drive is still connected to the pump.

I think it would not be too difficult to yank the pan in the car. Just messy. The pan isn't too deep, and there aren't any windage trays or obstructions. Next thing is the pickup could have parted company with the pump. I've seen this happen before, not common, but???

Otherwise, if you get this far, I would remove the pump, and pull the cover to see what it looks like internally. After that, I'm running out of ideas.....

Mark

[Babeola]

George,

It could be the pump, a sludge build-up around the pick-up, gunk in the pick-up screen, a loose or broken pick-up (as Mark said), oil gallery plugs (usually after a rebuild only), or a bearing. If the distributor and oil pump shaft are intact, all of the next issues in the progression are inside the pan. Then it gets more serious.

Cheryl :)

[staged67gspwr]

Yea,thats what i am going to do tomorrow,i will start to pull the pan out and inspect to see what might`ve caused this problem,i`ll keep u guys posted.


Thanks

[wkillgs]

George,

That's a bummer....First thing that comes to mind is...is there enough oil in it? ( I'm sure you checked, but...) Any leaks? I've had a oil filter housing crack on mine . (That's the piece which bolts to the side of the block, which filter attaches to). Pull the dist and check the drive. Spin it with a drill, see if there's resistance, and whether it builds pressure. Then drain your oil... does it look like metallic paint? (bad bearing), any water, sludge?

I've pulled the pan off my '66...It's difficult, but can be done. It's a PITA to get the pan out from between the crossmember and oil pump pickup. Had to remove trans converter cover, unbolt motor mounts, and lift motor up for clearance.

Carmen Faso sells a better oil pump pickup, and blueprinted pump. Aftermarket pumps have cast iron housings, originals were aluminum, and are preferred for some reason.

I see you tried the Yahoo board (aptly named!) 8)

Hope all goes well,

[staged67gspwr]

Yes Walt the oil was the first thing i checked and it was full,i will first see if any water or sludge but doubt it,then i will attempt to pull the pan,i have no choice:Do No: i have to see what caused this problem all of a sudden,no leaks anywhere cause i inspected the floor,should i pull the distributor and see if there is resistance first before i pull the pan?what to expect if there is resistance and if there isnt?


Thanks

[Babeola]

George,

I would pull the distributor first to make sure the end of the distributor shaft did not shear off, or that the oil pump shaft did not shear. A distributor issue would be the least intrusive fix. The drill method or even using a large screwdriver could point the way to proceed once the distributor is out. If there is intermittent, little or no clockwise resistance, you can bet you have a pump or pick-up issue. If there is a good amount of resistance, the pump and pick-up are probably doing their job. That would warrant a look beyond the pan :(


Cheryl

[Dale]

The oil pump that was in my '66 Riv broke into several pieces. If I had a scanner I'd show a picture of it. I never saw anything like it before. :shock:
I ran to Burger King one night, and when I came out and fired it up I heard a noise, Hmmm what was that?
As I drove the lifters started clacking, thats when I looked down and saw no oil pressure.
Drove the thing almost a mile back to the apartment praying I didn't get stuck at every stop light.
When I tore the engine down I found all the pieces.
Thankfully, no damage was done.
I hope yours isn't in the same condition.

[NailheadinCA]

I have to agree with DALE. I was driving my skylark back in November and I casually watched my guages like most guys and when I looked down at my oil guage, it was pointing at ZERO. I can't tell you the feeling in my gut. I drove it home and it started to clatter (Not Knock) about 6 miles down the road as I drove it into my driveway. I luckily was just finishing a rebuild on a nailhead and swapped it in that weekend. When I pulled the pan to check the old oil pump, the pickup, gears, idler shaft for the gear, ETC. were all laying in the pan. The pump had grenaded into many pieces. I will post a picture of it for the group as soon as I can. I have never seen anything like it and a nailhead guru friend of mine said the same thing.

Luckily I used Prolong in it since it was an old motor. I bet I could put a new pump in it and it would run fine.

:jd:

[staged67gspwr]

UPDATE:

Well took the pan off completely and the pump,the pump looked fine from what i saw but he pick up bolts and the oil pump bolts were not tight for some reason,anyways i think the problem was in the oil pan,the pan was full i mean full of timing chain nylon particles,i mean a hand full so i`m thinking they got caught up in the pick up screen and would not let the oil get through,thank god the timing chain didn completely brake or else i would`ve bent a valve or something.i ordered a new pump and timing chain from Carmen Faso to install,should be here monday,i`ll keep you guys posted on what happens after i install everything,what is the torque specs for the pick up,oil pump,and timing chain?should i use locktite anywhere and which locktite?


Thanks
George

[dcm422]

I had that happen on my 67 GS400 in 1986. Ran as smooth as silk, but noticed that the timing mark would fluctuate when I tried to time it. Oil pressure was fine too. Figured the chain was a bit loose, so I would just replace it. Took off the timing cover and saw there was no plastic left on the cam gear. Removed the chain from the gear without even having to unbolt the gear or slide the crank gear off. :jd:
Pulled the motor and dropped the pan and found handfulls of plastic on the bottom. :shock: Then, to make matters even worse, found an aluminum tool in the pan. :puzzled: If you look in the chassis manual, there is a picture of a long rod and short cover that thread onto the rod bolts to help push out the piston/rod assembly when the motor is in the car. The cover is to protect the crank from being scrathed when it is pushed out. That cover was in the pan.
Had all the original gaskets on the pan and timing cover and the heads/manifold have still not been off of it to this day. So it must have been in there from 1967!
If your screen has a flapper door in it, look for plastic pieces in the oil passages. Most should get caught by the filter, but I found one very small one under the rocker shaft on mine.
It has been running fine for the last 16 years, so you should be ok too.
Good Luck,
Mark

[staged67gspwr]

Now that u mentioned that cover,i noticed that the Nailhead does not have anything in the pan like a windage tray or something to keep the oil down,is that how they were?


Thanks

[wkillgs]

George,
Glad to hear it wasnt too serious, sounds like you'll have it back together in no time!
I'm not aware of a windage tray or baffle ever being used on the nailhead. Would be a good question for Russ on the Yahoo board. He did post that the rear sump pan the Skylark GS had a deeper sump (6qt) than the mid sump pan used on the other models. But Buick recommended only using 5 qts so as to keep the oil level away from the spinning crank.

Torque specs from '66 Chassis manual are as follows:

Oil pump to block: 30-40 ft lbs
Oil pump cover: 8-12
Oil pick-up tube: 6-9
Oil pan: 9-13
Oil pump (adapter?) to block:10-15
Timing chain sprocket: 40-55
Timing chain cover: 17-23

A dab of medium, blue loctite would be a good idea on the oil pump assembly. And I always use some teflon sealer on the timing cover bolt threads, and grease on the bolt shafts. A common problem is electrolytic corrosion on the steel bolt/alum cover.

And you might as well replace the front main seal...Carmen has a neoprene seal available.

So how did the pan removal go? I need to pull the pan on my Ca car...It runs flawness after 64k miles (or so I thought!). Then I put an oil pressure gauge on it, found I'm only getting 15-20 pounds of oil pressure. :Dou: I wonder if I have the same problem? I'm not looking foreward to that job! Was it as bad as I remember?

Hey Mark! How ya doin' buddy? it's been a few years!....

[staged67gspwr]

Walt first of all thanks for the torque specs,:TU:i will probably put it back together as soon as i get all the parts and gaskets this week then as soon as i start it up and all is well then i`ll sigh and feel alot better,as for the work,it wasnt bad at all, i thought it would be alot harder and a pain,i unbolted the motor mounts put the jack under the balancer lifted the motor up and the pan came right out peace of cake thank god,i did order the neoprene seal from Carmen as well as a little higher pressure pump and gaskets and timing chain,hope it works out well for you too,and dont worry about the oil pan removal at all it really was easy.



Thanks

[wkillgs]

>>>dont worry about the oil pan removal at all it really was easy.

That's a relief! When I removed the pan on my blue '66, it was difficult.... But it didn't have the stock oil pump pickup, but one that was fabricated. That must make all the difference...

Russ mentioned to check your bypass valve...it's located in the oil filter adapter. It's purpose is to bypass the filter when there is about 5 psi restriction across the filter...then it pumps oil directly to your mains....Don't think that happened in your case (clogged inlet, not filter), but you might as well clean it out too...

Hope all goes well...

[staged67gspwr]

How do i check that Walt?take out the oil filter and then?

Thanks

[wkillgs]

It's in the adapter block the oil filter screws on to. Remove the three bolts and take it off. There's a spring loaded valve built into it. I don't think it can be easily taken apart, as a retainer ring is pressed in. (I could be mistaken, I haven't looked at one in years) You can at least flush it out with solvent and see if anything comes out. I think you'll be okay, as it doesn't sound like your filter was clogged/restricted. Might as well check since you're there...IF the garbage got past the pick up screen, clogged your filter, opened the bypass valve, and into your main oil galleries...then your bearings are in trouble. I'd bet you're okay.

I wonder if the oil galleries can be 'blown out' to clean them....maybe remove an oil gallery plug (behind timing chain), and blow out with compressed air???? Just a thought. If you decide to remove a main bearing cap to inspect, torque spec is 80-110 ft-lbs for main cap bolts!

[staged67gspwr]

Walt,i dont think anything went past the pick up cause the screen and behind the screen was clean,so i should be ok,i will change the oil filter though.

Thanks

[staged67gspwr]

Walt,can u send me a copy of the `66 GS fuel pump schematic form and where the lines come and go from ur manual?


Thanks

[wkillgs]

Well, there is a pic in the manual, but my scanner is down...so I'll try to describe...
The supply line comes out of the frame..., then a connecting hose, then line to carb... goes straight (maybe 6"?) then makes a 90 degree right turn... to go under engine (is held to oil pan at front two bolts). goes to under fuel pump, bends up to pump inlet.

If you have air conditioning, there's a return line running from top of fuel filter, under water manifold, to line in frame.

Hope that helps, I can look at my cars toworrow....

[wildcat2]

George
Here's the diagram from the '65 manual.