Tribute cars (clones) at BG

[skylarkroost]

Very basic poll question. I think it would be a good thing. Lots of guys (self included) love the hobby and commit as much (and usually more) money to it as we can. We buy the reproduction and sometime original used parts to get our cars as close as we can to the real thing. This increases the buyer base and incentive of places like The Part Place, Year One, Poston, Racebuicks... (you get the idea) to continue to make more stuff for Buicks. Surely it would help the attendance and funding of the event.

[jimhirt]

In 1970 about 71,000 skylarks were built, without any question this should be part of the Buick pride and should be classified into shows. GS clones, GS stage ones clones and GSX clones what a treat to see on the streets. These cars turn the heads. I would say about 90 percent of the drivers going down the street look at these beauties. Same as a real GSX.:TU: the other 10 percent are blind.

[staged70]

I for one think it would be a great idea , up till now we show our suncoupe in the NON GS/GN catagory . Let me tell you this is a tough class . There are beautiful race cars, kit cars with turbo's in them , very nice lesabre's, electras, corvettes with buick engines . If this class were open to replicas or tribute cars I believe that it would be the largest class . I have a suggestion Keep the Non GS/GN clss for the fine Buicks other than the GS tributes , I bet that this class could have as many as 50 cars or more . Reminds me of the early 90's .
John

[Lee Bacon]

I think that would be great as many can't afford the real deal or there just not available as they once we're. Just look at some of the tribute car's, there sometime's nicer than the real one's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[IDOXLR8]

I for one think its a good idea! AL.

[Eric]

I remember a fellow many years ago from Sequim, Washington
who had a beautiful green 70 GSX convertible 4-speed tribute car.
I think he sold it and wishes he had it back now!
E-roc :3gears:

PS ...How could it be a tribute car as there never was a car
made ,to tribute it , to! :Do No:

[Lee Bacon]

Yea I kinda remember that 4-Speed:3gears: :3gears: :3gears: :laugh: :laugh: :beer

[nailheadina67]

I think clones are the wave of the future.......good idea!:TU:

[rd1970gs]

Guys,

Without checking can you tell me what the BG is?:Dou:

[Duane]

They are talking about the GSCA Nationals that are held at "BG" Bowling Green Kentucky each year.
Duane

[gospdgo]

Sure. Then we can watch the same brainless millionaires throw more money away as we laugh from our couches.

[skylarkroost]

Guys,

Without checking can you tell me what the BG is?:Dou:

My bad. I refer to it so often by the initials that it becomes automatic sometimes. It is the GSCA event that has been held some 20+ years in Bowling Green KY. Generally one of if not the largest draws for the Buick crowd.

[JSteele]

I think it's a good idea!!!!There is alot of good that comes from clone cars as stated above.

[Lee Bacon]

Jude someday i'm going to come over & visit ya:TU: :3gears:

[JSteele]

Lee I'm looking forward to seeing you, sorry we didn't get together last time you were here. Take care,
Jude

[65gsragtop]

why can they just call them clones?

[sgrant2]

I have # matching 67 GS vert but because it is now so valuable I cannot enjoy it for my street ride.

So I am doing a 67 Skylark convertible into a "Tribute" GS and I will be using a 455 with a 700r-4 with 4.11 gears in the back. I can take it to the strip race street class and not have to worry about it being out of my sight. I can put a decent stereo in it what every I want to do. And I can clone it so close to a real GS unless you know the correct body tag numbers you won't be able to tell. And 99% of the population couldn't tell the difference.

This generates interest for the Buick's so I think it is great.

Just my opinion :TU:

Scott

[nailheadina67]

why can they just call them clones?

I think the word "clone" has negetive stigma attached to it. "Tribute car" sounds more appealing.
I guess it's a way to sugarcoat the idea to the purists! LOL :Dou:

[Brian]

I like the idea.
One question comes to mind though. If someone buys a completely rusted out GS/GSX to restore and swaps the body with a rust-free Skylark body, switches the VIN and body tag over, and swaps all the other GS/GSX specific parts over to it to where it is just like it came from the factory--is that a clone or it it a true GS? What makes a GS--the VIN and Body ID tag, or is it having all the original parts still there?

[Gold Skylark]

The VIN and the Body Tag make the car...not the replaced sheet metal.

"That little pot o' gold is so hard to find"

[skylarkroost]

Removing the VIN and body tag to place in another car is immoral and to my knowledge illegal. A true GS should have the original firewall with tag, VIN and correct numbers on the frame (somewhere below drivers door I think). A clone or tribute car is an effort to make cosmetically and drive train wise a vehicle like a GS or GSX but not to misinform in any way the true heritage (VIN) of the car.
That is my take on it anyway. The idea is that you should not be able to tell them apart without looking at the VIN or body tag.

[Brian]

When I got my '65 GS, the firewall and area under the front windshield was too far gone to save (firewall rusted completely through), so I cut the whole dash/cowl section out of a regular skylark right in front of the drivers seat and put it in my GS. The rest of the car--rear half of the body, fenders, doors, hood, trunk lid, frame, drivetrain, etc. are all the original GS stuff that came on the car. I swapped the firewall tag and VIN tag off of the original rusted out cowl and put it on the newly welded in one. In my book it is still a true '65 GS--I just had to replace a very rusty sheet metal section in the body and it happened to be the section that the VIN and Body tags were riveted too.
So in your opinion, is my car a clone, or an original GS?

[jimhirt]

[QUOTE=skylarkroost;932179]Removing the VIN and body tag to place in another car is immoral and to my knowledge illegal. A true GS should have the original firewall with tag, VIN and correct numbers on the frame

ditto. REMOVING the VIN is immoral.

[skylarkroost]

When I got my '65 GS, the firewall and area under the front windshield was too far gone to save (firewall rusted completely through), so I cut the whole dash/cowl section out of a regular skylark right in front of the drivers seat and put it in my GS. The rest of the car--rear half of the body, fenders, doors, hood, trunk lid, frame, drivetrain, etc. are all the original GS stuff that came on the car. I swapped the firewall tag and VIN tag off of the original rusted out cowl and put it on the newly welded in one. In my book it is still a true '65 GS--I just had to replace a very rusty sheet metal section in the body and it happened to be the section that the VIN and Body tags were riveted too.
So in your opinion, is my car a clone, or an original GS?

Brian, this seems to be an acceptable exception to me if indeed the only part of this car that was rusted out was as you say. It would certainly be a shame to not be able to make a small repair like that and save a GS. However I have never seen one that was rusted in that spot alone. I think I would still mention it to a prospective buyer should you ever decide to sell it.
The thread actually deals with known clones competing against one another for closeness to genuine GS(X)'s. There are threads that deal more closely to your question and answered by those much more informed, and capable on the topic than I. I was merely expressing my opinion.

[nailheadina67]

Just my opinion.......having spent my whole life around Buffalo, witnessing first hand the damaging effects of road salt and humid air........I've seen way too many really nice cars, many rare ones, rusted to the point of oblivion. Many of them being low mileage cars.

I respect any well done "clone", "tribute" or whatever. If it has tags on it from another car that reflect what it was built to be, and it's correctly done, to me that's a winner......not a bad thing at all. Replacing rusted sheet metal shouldn't matter regardless of what part of it is being replaced. That includes the cowl area. As long as the fact the tags were imported from another car is disclosed to any potential buyer.

My understanding as to the legality of swapping tags is that it's illegal only if doing so is with fraudulent intention. If you disclose what you did to the new owner, I don't see how it could possibly be considered a crime. :Do No:

[Brian]

Yes, that was not the only place it was rusted--I replaced the roof along with the cowl. It is a vinyl top car and the vinyl top rusted the roof to where it looked like swiss cheese, which let water get all inside and rusted out the floor pans too. So the car got a roof/cowl off another car, and floor pans. The firewall was rusted through completely along the seamalong the top in the engine compartment and the dash was no longer attached to the cowl!

[staged70]

MY clone (tribute) Whatever:3gears:

[skylarkroost]

Sweet ride John. I'm in the process of contacting GSCA to see what hope, if any, we have for ever getting a chance to run a clone class. We have pulled decent numbers on the poll so "ya neva know".

[staged70]

Yes , it seems that if you build a skylark "tribute" car its wrong to make you show with a low mile original 75 pace car or a turbo powered Cobra kit car . The NOn GS GN class is always a large class and has been broken up into 2 classes depending on years . Maybe a Buick class for the original 225 , Centurian, Lesabre,or the pace car and a other buick powered class for all the brand X vehicles .
If the perameter is stock GS appearence for the year of car you are replicating it should be easier to judge .

[richopp]

My 2cents worth: Now that I have had to sell (divorce) my Stage 1 Convertible that I bought new and never drove anymore due to its condition and value, etc., I would and will buy a "clone" as I now want to drive my car, not polish it for 2 shows per year.
As for the ethics discussed in all the posts here, as long as you tell me what you did, I can make the decision as to whether to buy your car or not. Because I personally want a "not real" car that looks good (real?), I would actively be seeking a clone, but I would expect to pay "clone" dollars for it.

The big question mark in all this is that it takes pretty much the same money to restore a clone as it does an original, depending upon how far gone it is, of course. So, should I expect to pay less for a clone even though the owner spent almost the same $$ on it? Sure, but once again, if I know what I am getting, I am an informed buyer, so that seems honest enough to me. Honesty seems to win out here, as it does in many parts of life, I guess.

If they are in BG at the Nats, it would make it a lot easier to find one that I could see in person, so I think we should give it a try and see what happens.

Now if someone can find me a white GSX clone with white interior for the 100 bucks I have left after the divorce... !

[batcar]

I think it's a good idea, I am not opposed to clones, as long as they are not passed off as the real deal. As far as expanding the GSCA, it probobly will help. I was in this club for 2 years, It caters to GS and GN's, this is fine but I like ALL Buick's They forget about the Wildcats and Riviera's, ect. In 12 issues of the GSXtra I found no features on these cars.

[Mr Big]

Never met a Skylark I didn't like...(including clones).

Check oil, pump gas, burn rubber, it's a Buick!:3gears:

[Smartin]

Judging by his signature, he looks a bit suspicuous.:rolleyes:

[exhaust plus]

I think clones are the wave of the future.......good idea!:TU:

Although I have real GSX's, I'm in the process of building a '71 Limemist GSX replica to drive. 350, 200r4, 3.90 gears, a/c, 2 1/2" x-system, etc. I think it will be a joy to drive anywhere. Scott

[skylarkroost]

Sounds awesome Scott:TU: We are in the process with a 71 also. White with black interior 350 car. Should be home from the paint shop soon :beers2: Be sure to post some pics of yours when you get it fininshed. I'm working on a site dedicated to cloning larks into GS and GSX cars. It's a long way from finished but if you want a sneak peak it's here. www.buickmuscleclones.com all construtive comments and suggestions appreciated.

[bladerunner]

Hey this is a frame off restoration of a 1972 Skylark Custom Convertible turned into a 1971 GS 455 Flame orange convert with a modified 455 that does 12 second times.

What do you call that????????

[V8Sky]

Sounds awesome Scott:TU: We are in the process with a 71 also. White with black interior 350 car. Should be home from the paint shop soon :beers2: Be sure to post some pics of yours when you get it fininshed. I'm working on a site dedicated to cloning larks into GS and GSX cars. It's a long way from finished but if you want a sneak peak it's here. www.buickmuscleclones.com all construtive comments and suggestions appreciated.



>>Nice website! I'm sure it will be quite helpful to those doing the research - it took me around 10 years to build my '71 GSX 350 clone and I still have more to do!

[skylarkroost]

Hey this is a frame off restoration of a 1972 Skylark Custom Convertible turned into a 1971 GS 455 Flame orange convert with a modified 455 that does 12 second times.

What do you call that????????

I call it a quick ragtop:beers2:

[bladerunner]

Hey what a 1967 evinrude Sportsman 225 V6, in that in infamous Buick Boat?

I like the blue outboards, my buddy just put a brand new 235 Etech on his pontton boat. Talk about a wild evinrude ride that is it, a 50 plus mph pontoon boat rocks. Love old boats, show picture if you have one.

[skylarkroost]

http://www.ultimate.com/omc-boats/gallery/sport1.html about halfway down.

Ahh, yes. The notorious Batboat. I've had the old girl about 8 years now. That thing runs like a .... well heck, it runs like a BUICK :TU: . Runs up close to 40 or so with 4 people aboard and will pull your socks off skiing. Hard to beat those old OMC boats. Everything still works on it including the cigarette lighter. Electric shift had to be rebuilt but otherwise pretty flawless.

[bladerunner]

nice, did they make a V6 Evinrude in 67? must have.

[skylarkroost]

Yes, Evinrude made the Sportman 16' with a 4 cyl and the Buick oddfire 6 cyl. like mine. That OMC site has a nice variety of both Johnson and Evinrude boats.

[bladerunner]

O I was thinking outboard, It is an OMC I/O :Dou: , well that makes it even better

[70ConvBeast]

I would rather keep the "clone" term myself. Tribute seems to be yet another careful pollitically corect term, Say what it is.

[skylarkroost]

I would rather keep the "clone" term myself. Tribute seems to be yet another careful pollitically corect term, Say what it is.

As you can see, I agree totally. Note the description of mine under my avatar. Some take offense to the denotation as to "clone" by definition would replicate exactly, which might become highly illegal when you start adding fake VIN and trim plates.

[70ConvBeast]

No offence meant. Work late at night my point comes accross harsh. (I am already back at work)
I love my clone, there is nothing better than cruising around looking down that Ram-Air hood.

[bladerunner]

What do you think of Recreation or Replica, I tend to use these terms because I think it sounds better just personal preference. But Clone works too.

Who really cares right, I own my car to drive and nobody in the real world knows much about decoding any muscle car let alone a Buick. I think people just love the car period, I like how the car stirs emotions in people when they see it. People at the shows I go to just like cool old cars (especially rags), and it makes me feel good to make other people smile and enjoy or reminise about the old days.

Same with Antique Boats or other cool old stuff, it is just plain fun. All of us on this board are still kids at heart, and I think that is good for the heart.

:beer

Looking forward to the car craft national this weekend, because numbers matching means nothing there, it is Street Machines Rule.:laugh:

[nailheadina67]

"numbers matching" and "all original" will eat you alive.......just do what turns you on and be happy. Life is too short to build your car to someone else's specifications. :TU:

[stg1gs455]

I am a firm believer in building Tribute cars. There are a lot more of us out there that want these old muscle cars than there are cars available. The rare ones are snapped up by collectors and have become so valuable that you can't drive them the way they were ment to be. Even the tribute cars that are done right are becoming quite valuable. My 71 GS455 Stg1 convertible is a Tribute car, the only way to tell is to check the VIN. Only the most diehard buick person could tell that it's not real. In 1971 they made a total of 81 Stg1 convertibles. If mine was real I couldn't have bought it needing a restoration for near what I have in a full frame up restored clone. Because it's not real I have added a lot of hidden perfomance with no fear of devalueing it. Plus I get to drive it like I stole it, If I break it I can fix it.

[skylarkroost]

No offence meant. Work late at night my point comes accross harsh. (I am already back at work)
I love my clone, there is nothing better than cruising around looking down that Ram-Air hood.

No offense taken. That's always the problem with written text. No facial expressions or voice inflection to interpret the meaning with. :Comp:

[izanurse]

I think the tribute car class is a great idea. I for one would be a willing participant. Allen

[steve covington]

As a member of the Carolina's chapter (which organizes and sets up the Friday car show at bg), we had to re-organize the show classes for 07 because we were getting fewer and fewer cars:( showing in almost all classes. Some even didn't have 3, so getting a trophy was a "gimmee". Personally, I welcome tribute/ clone/ fake/ replicated cars. As several others have said, it helps the business end for reproduction parts sources (which keeps parts avilable due to marketability), and most people don't know genuine from fakes, especially exceptionally well done cars.

[RG67BEAST]

I think it's great idea. The more the better.
mopar, fords & chevy events are huge in comparison. There is so many the judges check for aftermarket tiawan decklids. :Dou:
Ray

[Joe65SkylarkGS]

Nothing wrong with clones. We all can't afford the real thing so I make my own interputation of what it should be.

IMO.

I love my fake GS.

Nothing fake about the 500 ponies under my hood.

[Regal Ryder]

Maybe

[70ApolloStaged]

Clones, tributes, replicas are all fine to me. I have owned my 70 Stage hardtop for 23 years. I have had no problem in the past racing the heck out of it. Now that values are up and certain parts are getting a little tougher to find or swallow the price on, I am detuning and re-restoring it to a completely stock appearing car. Just gonna add some sauce to the internals of the engine and keep the built trans and rear(gotta keep them C6 Vettes at bay when I do cruise it. LOL) Basically if you can't see it, I will mod it to my tastes. Buuuutttt, I have been thinking that taking less chances with it is gonna be the name of the game from here on out.

This is where my feeling on clones comes in. As long as someone isn't trying to pass off their clone as the real deal for monetary gain or even to stroke their ego, I am fine with it. I think that the more visibility we can get to Buick performance the better. Owners of originals, like me, shouldn't feel threatened in any way. I have been thinking of picking up a GS350 a friend owns and making it a replica Stage2 car. No way would I pass it off as the real deal since it would diminish those guys who work to preserve the real Stage2 cars. I've been thinking of doing this so my son can have the power and fun of a BBB in a car his young and race minded(I corrupted him bad, lol)self can get out there and flog a GS without destroying a piece of automotive history if something went wrong on a pass.

So, clone guys have at it. It might not be so long from now that you guys will be the only ones out there giving us a chance to see a big block "GS" with the loud pedal smashed to the floor.

[pressdoctor]

Great Idea I own both numbers cars and TRIBUTES if I didn;t tell most people do not know the difference

[speedtigger]

From the driver's seat, who cares if it came from the factory that way or was built by somebody after the fact. What matters to me is that it is nice now. So, I say definitely have a class for them. There are probably more nice tribute cars than originals these days.

[kent.gardner]

I think its a great idea. My 71 Skylark could be categorized as a clone. It looks the part of the real deal, but without the vin of one. It has the GS hood, a stage 1 455, spoiler, stripes, you know the usual goodies. To me its just as good as the real thing. I drive it around and it looks and runs like a real one. Most people cant tell the difference. They ask all the time "is that a GSX?" That's the point where i get to laugh and say "no, its just a skylark" Most people still love it anyway. Its just my way of paying tribute to a great muscle car.:beers2:

[doramider7]

I for one think it would be a great idea , up till now we show our suncoupe in the NON GS/GN catagory . Let me tell you this is a tough class . There are beautiful race cars, kit cars with turbo's in them , very nice lesabre's, electras, corvettes with buick engines . If this class were open to replicas or tribute cars I believe that it would be the largest class . I have a suggestion Keep the Non GS/GN clss for the fine Buicks other than the GS tributes , I bet that this class could have as many as 50 cars or more . Reminds me of the early 90's .
John
I think that would be great as many can't afford the real deal or there just not available as they once we're. Just look at some of the tribute car's, there sometime's nicer than the real one's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[ragtop4spd]

you know, I started a long explanation, but let me keep it short to avoid unnecessarily insulting more people. I personally respect modified and custom cars more if they don't have fake badges (i.e. GS, GSX, Stage I badges that are not accurate). Ultimately, I like stock myself, and can respect nice customization, and I also vote for doing what makes you personally happy, but to me, a GS is a GS and a customized Skylark is a customized Skylark. Not saying everyone has to think this way, but my own respect drops when the custom job includes an added badge labeling something for what it is not. I would always personally vote for a custom category, and would never vote for a Clone or Tribute category. Clone and Tribute just mean fake to me, and I'm just not into that.

Just my own opinion, I can see it is by far in the minority and I guess it is no big deal. Just stating the counterpoint.

[ragtop4spd]

I'd like to add out of respect, it seems the more recent categories of clones or tributes are an outgrowth of respect for the restoration skills of some folks. Back in the day, putting a GS label on a skylark or a 455 badge on a 350 would just be seen as pathetic. But I can see that construction of something interesting through a lot of hard work by either an amateur or master restorer has taken on a different light, so that some of you don't mind the fakes, and even gravitate toward them, because more often than not nowadays, they represent someone's hardwork and attention to detail, not just fake labeling.

I wouldn't label someone like me as a purist, just someone who appreciates the originals, and historical significance. Times are changing and I can see the growing number of people who are into clones. But for those of you complaining about high prices, there are many very cool original cars out there that are affordable, unusual, and powerful. I still vote for being different, not a clone. I'll be the first to say, what does my opinion mean anyway?

[USAMPFREAK]

I think a clone/tribute class is in order we all LOVE the GSX's and what the represent. But very few of us have the luck to be able to afford a real one. So in the spirit of independence we make our own versions and not follow the sheep of the chebby herd.

[davidwillson]

In 1970 about 71,000 skylarks were built, without any question this should be part of the Buick pride and should be classified into shows. GS clones, GS stage ones clones and GSX clones what a treat to see on the streets. These cars turn the heads. I would say about 90 percent of the drivers going down the street look at these beauties. Same as a real GSX.:TU: the other 10 percent are blind.
I for one think it would be a great idea , up till now we show our suncoupe in the NON GS/GN catagory . Let me tell you this is a tough class . There are beautiful race cars, kit cars with turbo's in them , very nice lesabre's, electras, corvettes with buick engines . If this class were open to replicas or tribute cars I believe that it would be the largest class . I have a suggestion Keep the Non GS/GN clss for the fine Buicks other than the GS tributes , I bet that this class could have as many as 50 cars or more . Reminds me of the early 90's .

[Tony Rocha]

I had a # matching 70 stage 1 and sold it. it needed a lot of work. but i would not mind having a tribute - clone because if something happened to the motor it would not be matching #'s anymore had that happen to a friend. I will be looking for a 70 455 in the summer as long as it is in good shape. i dont care if it's a tribute-clone or not just like the body style

[gray07]

I was in a monte carlo club , i had a 1987 monte, i built it as a ss monte, i changed everything it looked just like one, i drove it everyday even in the winter, people would ask why i drove it in the winter and i would tell them its a fake ss, ive been to car shows and seen people when it start to rain they would cover there car up, not me, let it get wet. When i sold the car i told the guy it was a fake ss, and he argued with me saying it wasnt, until i showed him the photo album with me building it. so what iam trying to say, some of us cant afford a real one, so yes iam all for a class for clones. These cars are getting expensive to drive everyday, so build what you want, I love them all, oh yeh i would love to have a real gsx but i would be afraid to drive it, the way some people drive around here.

[DavidC77]

They ask all the time "is that a GSX?" .:beers2:


I would just say back to them "it is now" :laugh: :TU:

[DavidC77]

Yes I agree that there should be a "Tribute Class". As many have said there's a lot of them out there now.

If you can aford a real one great (I hope to some day) but for now I'll stick with my tribute car that looks and is as close as you can get to the real thing.

Drive um and enjoy them while you can, you never know what the next few hours or next day will bring you !!!

:beers2:

[N360LL]

Ok, i'm going to get up on my soap box here and posit the following thoughts:

1)The horse has already left the barn on the tribute, clone, replica, re-creation issue in the collector car world. I think each term is used in interchangably and each has a unique definition. And they should be used correctly in any discussion of the car.

2)What happens when the car is sold a few time and someone convienantly forgets to mention that the car is on of the afore mentioned instead of an authentic example of the model?

3) Why not make a separate class, if it attracts attendees that wouldn't normally participate then that is a good thing.

4) So what class does a non-numbers matching GSX that wasn't faithfully restored go into?

[staged70]

Ok, i'm going to get up on my soap box here and posit the following thoughts:

1)The horse has already left the barn on the tribute, clone, replica, re-creation issue in the collector car world. I think each term is used in interchangably and each has a unique definition. And they should be used correctly in any discussion of the car.

2)What happens when the car is sold a few time and someone convienantly forgets to mention that the car is on of the afore mentioned instead of an authentic example of the model?

3) Why not make a separate class, if it attracts attendees that wouldn't normally participate then that is a good thing.

4) So what class does a non-numbers matching GSX that wasn't faithfully restored go into?
Let me try this

1) IF you or anyone buys a car without the knowledge it takes to know if a car is a clone then you have made a big mistake. ( Buyer be ware isn't just a catch phrase) I would never buy a car I cannot prove its originality unless I was paying clone prices.
2) I agree anything to bring more cars out to the NATS
3) A incorrect 72 GSX should still be in the GSX class but the owner will find he doesn't fare well against correct cars. If the owner wanted I would imagine he could go into 72 GS hardtop class and see how it fares.