Any info on HHO or Brown's gas?

[gs_jimmy]

Looking for info on hydrogen gas as a suppliment to traditional gasoline for use in our "old" cars. Anyone tried this yet?

Basic principle is to use electrolosis and water to break out the hydrogen from the water (H20). Then the gas is moved to the carb via lines to an air intake and sucked into the engine to facilitate a more complete burn of the gasoline fuel.

It seems like the basic science is there, but reads like a scam. The claim is a 15-25% gain in MPG, due to a complete burn of the fuel. (95+ vs. 80% for gas alone). This is simular to water injection or alky injection, but the difference is the water remains and only the gas is broken out.

If this is true, then a 14MPG dinosauer would be getting 17.5 MPG, or in Buick speak, an extra 50 miles per tank (savings of $184.50 @ $3.69 gal).

I'm finding two schools of thought;
1. that this is voodoo & a total scam
2. it really works and we need to think outside the box.

Thoughts?:idea2:

[DaWildcat]

I've read positive reports of the benefit of hydrogen injection for a gasoline engine. The problem is the total energy equation...to make electrolysis take place to produce the hydrogen from water requires a considerable amount of energy. Enough energy to basically nullify the savings obtained by injecting the hydrogen in the first place.

If you had a free source for bottled hydrogen it might be worth investigating! :cool:

Devon

[sailbrd]

I have this friend who is really into "suppressed technology." He spent a couple of grand and went to Utah to take a class on this kind of stuff and never made it work. This is a guy that Ford goes to when they need some weird part built that their in house guys can't do.

[northcorner]

Looking for info on hydrogen gas as a suppliment to traditional gasoline for use in our "old" cars. Anyone tried this yet?

Basic principle is to use electrolosis and water to break out the hydrogen from the water (H20). Then the gas is moved to the carb via lines to an air intake and sucked into the engine to facilitate a more complete burn of the gasoline fuel.

It seems like the basic science is there, but reads like a scam. The claim is a 15-25% gain in MPG, due to a complete burn of the fuel. (95+ vs. 80% for gas alone). This is simular to water injection or alky injection, but the difference is the water remains and only the gas is broken out.

If this is true, then a 14MPG dinosauer would be getting 17.5 MPG, or in Buick speak, an extra 50 miles per tank (savings of $184.50 @ $3.69 gal).

I'm finding two schools of thought;
1. that this is voodoo & a total scam
2. it really works and we need to think outside the box.

Thoughts?:idea2:


That's funny, I ran across this the other day and thought the same thing: http://waco.craigslist.org/pts/670880224.html I'm still on the fence so far because like you said, it sounds too much like a scam. BUT, it still peaks my curiosity!

[gs_jimmy]

I do vendor investigations on Casino's and everything tells me that this is a scam. The tease is that "most of the info" was published on line. I believe what is left out, would be covered in the 2 part series of books for only $107!

The flip is that what is put out does make some sense. You are using it as a supliment and not a fuel. The science geeks are telling me that large amounts of electrical amps would be needed to effectively split off the Brown's Gas to be somewhat usable as described.

Maybe some of our engineering types could weigh in on this. Of course what is really needed is a prototype to do "real world" testing and see if the claimed milage increase is there. With our dinosaurs, every little bit helps to keep them on the road. I do see a real need for FI & overdrive (but that 4 spd, BBB is so much fun!).

Jim

[DaWildcat]

Maybe some of our engineering types could weigh in on this.

Jim

Already did! :)

Devon

[Jim Blackwood]

Well, here's the thing, the energy you get out of burning the gas would equal the energy used to separate it, minus the losses (mechanical, heat, friction, electrical resistance, etc.) so the only possible gain is in promoting more complete combustion of the gasoline. Theoretically a gain that way might be possible, but odds are we're not going to be able to measure it outside a laboratory at this stage.

Jim

[austingta]

I think it's a hoax.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=cVG&q=water+4+gas&btnG=Search

[RAMKAT2]

I remember going to a demonstration for the miracle of "Browns gas" back in Kansas City in the early 80's. Watched a guy using the gas to weld a steel rod to a brick. He welded a piece of brass to a piece of aluminum as well. They definately had the crowd going, but the buy-in was high, so I only took home a brochure. A year later when I tried to contact the company, they had disappeared. Caveat emptor on the browns gas.

[gs_jimmy]

Wow, at $4 per gallon, any increase in the efficiency of the combustion of the fuel would be nice. As Jim just said, the increase would most likely only be seen in a lab environment.

But, if we could separate enough H22O from the H2O (1 molocule of hydrogen) to introduce into the air/fuel ratio economically ($200 or so) then any increase would be welcome.

What I remain unsure of is how much gas is needed to produce an effective gain. With 7.5 litres (455 Stage 1) in volume to fill, it would seem that 2-3 of these so called "generators" are going to be needed. If this is the case, would a secondary charging system (high energy) be needed? With my '69, I still have space on the driver's side (Pontiac/Olds have a battery there), and we could fab up a 2nd alternator bracket & run on the third (a/c) pulley position from the crank. In theroy, a high output, internal regulated, big car alternator should produce the voltage requirement needed.

So then IF we see a 20% boost to milage from this addition at a limited cost (nothing is free) and we add overdrive to reduce RPM (gear vendors or AOD) then being a daily driver at 20 MPG would again seem reasonable (right foot dependant!).

Please let me know if this line of thinking is on target (good or bad).

Jim
'69 GS California
455 Stage 1/Muncie 4 spd/3.31 posi
"Passes everything but gas stations" & that ain't good right now!

[kolby66]

I have looked into this, but only on the internet. There was one actual testimony that made sense, from a SAE mechanic. He said that the information given in the books was very interesting, but he was on the fence if anything would produce the benifits on the water4gas web page. I figured if it was that simple than there would already be in every auto parts store.

[cole d]

If you search HHO on Youtube there are some amazing videos of in car system built and running.

Here are 4 videos on saltwater for gas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-oOgytBWYs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKtKSEQBeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtmK3hwYO6U&feature=related

[cole d]

Here's another video on HHO gas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6YYUOx6fBU

[cole d]

This is a old video of Stanley Meyers(deceased) who invented a water for gas car in the 70's very informing check this out

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stApCmxYEM&feature=related

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75_TGiwg78&feature=related

water car running short video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU&feature=related

[alan]

If this is true, then a 14MPG dinosauer would be getting 17.5 MPG, or in Buick speak, an extra 50 miles per tank (savings of $184.50 @ $3.69 gal).



You can get darn near 20 mpg from a 455 depending on gearing, tune, and driving conditions. A friend of mine put a V6 in an "A" body years ago and got over 30 mpg on the highway.

[gs_jimmy]

Alan,

20 mpg would be awesome! What gearing and carb combo are you speaking of? I have a 2.56 single spin (8.2) sitting on the shelve. I'm afraid that it would go BOOM with a 455 in front! My 3.31 posi has plenty of pick up, but milage is a measly 14mpg IF I stay out of the Holley 750.

I think a Q-jet is most likely the way to go, but what CFM? I have a 678 cfm for a '69 GS 350 that could be used. I'd guess that this is most likely the max cfm out of this carb & don't want to lean out the 455.

Combo is: 1971 455 Stage 1, Muncie M20, Chevy 12 bolt 3.31, running a 14" tire/rim with 215's/235's. Most likely would need to run a 15-17 inch wheel to reduce rpm's.

Thoughts?

Jim

[sean Buick 76]

Jimmy, go with the 2.56 gear if you want better milage but also try a Q jet FORSURE!

Go with a 71-74 Buick 455 Q jet and you will be pleased! They are 800 cfm and already jetted for economy on the 455.

[alan]

2.56 is what I'm thinking of with a TH400 and low ratio gear set. Sort of a "low buck" overdrive setup.

[alan]

I didn't think about 2.56 gears being hard to find, what's a good source them? :Do No:

[sootie007]

Me and my buddy just got into this. He built a homebuilt cell and he said hes getting 20% on his injected 350 truck (older injection computer 1992 I think) after 2 tanks. Peaking my interest I looked at his cell and saw some room for improvement. I just built mine and tested it . Heres a photo of my intentionally small cell. It produced gas for the first time last week first try . I am now building one larger to install in my truck ...the one in the photo is 18" long and 2-1/2 wide. It uses 12 volts and used 8.8 amps. It produced pretty well for the first time....in a nutshell supposedly hydrogen burns cleaner, cooler and has 3 times the energy of gas per volume. You inject it in the intake via a simple vacuum hose. The computer supposedly leans the injector pulse width out in response. Now the facts : I have read putting this hydrogen gas in can actually cause the computer to go the other way by accident and actually fatten the injector pulse -using more gasoline worsening your mileage as the hydrogen burns so clean it scrubs up the gas emissions so clean- the o2 sensor is fooled and says to the engine hey computer fatten the mixture up we are lean. SOOOO the guys that are getting unbelievable +30%-50% mileage increases goof with the 02 sensors output signal to allow leaning out of the mixture so the hydrogen can take over and the injector pulse width is super skinny . Supposedly older computers are less savvy and have better results on the hydrogen cells. Think about it the computer via its program is only going to lean things out so far before it stops so it doesnt burn pistons etc. by being too lean ..so I think the best you can sneak by and do without goofing with the 02 sensor is at best probably 20%. I will take that any day ! So I am building a larger cell and I will throw it on my Toyota truck and just see what happens. P.s. my first small cell cost $19.85. It would almost pay for itself after the first tankfull. People are running 100% off of hydrogen but you basically have to really rearrange the engines fuel system to accomodate the gas and its clean burning properties. Go on Youtube and type in hho cell,,,their are thousands of mad scientist types doing it . IM ALWAYS A SKEPTIC BUT THIS IS REAL AND IT WORKS. Also go on and type in hho explosion - you have to be carefull with this stuff - but its manageable. Will keep you updated when I add it to my truck in a few weeks. I still want to tweak my design and buy better stainless components for it. Above was just talking about fuel injection....for carbuerated cars you just inject the low pressure hose into the intake manifold and the engine draws in the hydrogen gas. The biggest danger is a backfire in the intake that makes it all the way back to the cell then its kablooohey unless you have backfire protection in the gas line or what they call a bubbler ...alot of guys are making homebuilt anti backfire valves...they are probably reinventing the wheel as I am sure propane barbeque components would probably work. I actually have a super short video showing my cell shown in the photo pushing pressurized HHO out of the chamber on its first run through a transparent line into a water filled catch tank so you can see the volume of gas being produced .....its on you tube and my name is sootie007..if your bored check it out.....this stuff is for real ...Im sure the government will step in soon and make it illegal to have these generators on your car in the name of safety but really to protect the oil companies and the U.S. government's tax revenues....ps Im not usually a conspiracy theorist type but this stuff works and is super simple and is not being offered to the public via auto manufacturers like it should be - so what gives Mr. President ?????? Oil bidness ?..Good luck J.

[cole d]

Wow good stuff keep us updated with your results

[HADA-X]

I bought one for my 94 chevy diesel it worked for about a year then stopped the plates got eaten by the electrolysis that broke up the water and baking soda to make the hydrogen picked up 6 miles to the gallon. made my own and pick up 8 miles to the gallon didn't do much for my gas motors I was told it was do to the o2 sensor. have not tried it on a carbureted motor. the generator works best with about 10 to 15 amps. adjusted by the baking soda. EZ to make pvc pipe and stainless steel and some hose. good luck

[gs_jimmy]

OK, now that we are seeing folks who really used this tech & it did produce as expected, what will it take to build a system, without spending an extra $100 on the books from the internet guy?

I'd love to see the plans on building & wiring this thing. I have an 2001 Olds & 1998 Astro that are driven 500 miles round trip per week. To pick up 6-8 mpg would be great.

Now for the hard part, how would this work for a carb'd 455????

I'm running a Holley right now on an Iron Intake. Could we simply take a 1/2" carb spacer plate and drill in a port to introduce the HHO? OR would I need to run in the gas prior to an intake charge?

Of course the flip side would be to set-up the motor to run a fuel injection set-up. I'd assume that the FAST system is going to be the most tuneable system for what I'm proposing. So, do I run with TBI, if so will a 350 (SBC) be workable, or do I need to come up with a 454 set up. Remember, we are leaning down the system to include the HHO.

Thoughts????

[flynbuick]

"Any info on HHO or Brown's gas?"

No, except I know it is a bad sign.

[sootie007]

Go to sites like Water from gas or water for gas I think it is called ...all the plans and cells are their for availability - fee ...another is called Punch hho....the father of this stuff was an inspiration to all.... non college graduate,self funded,non chemist ....his name was Stan Meyer who got patents and forged ahead but nobody would listen..hes dead now.....guys this is real world working uncomplicated technology,,,you create an explosive gas and supplement it into your intake but you have to fool your ecu computer first. Hada x above said he got 6-8 miles per gallon on a diesel so you have heard it from one of our own brothers ....I have been getting my 65 back up and running once thats done I am switching over projetcs to get my Tundra on suplemental hho using my own designed cell ........heres an early cell test of mine producing hho gas ..J .

http://www.youtube.com/v/XzcHXzGiOQc&hl=en

[sean Buick 76]

very neet stuff!

[sootie007]

I am constructing my rev 2 fuel cell tonight and will be putting it on my 2006 Toyota Tundra 4.7 truck this weekend. The cell should produce 2 times my first units output. Its still a "conservative" sized cell when judged against others. I will run it all next week. If its a bunch of b.s. I will tell you all . I am doing no o2 mods at this time ...just bolting it on and seeing what happens. If it makes the truck throw error codes its coming off . I will post my mileage results by Friday......JFK

[Bruce Simpson]

This Brown's gas, Klien gas, HHO or whatever you want to call it is just a scam.

You don't need a degree in mathematics or physics to see that it just doesn't work.

In fact, I've gotten so annoyed at the number of "run your car on water" scams that are appearing I figured it was about time to mount a public awareness campaign so I wrote an article titled The great "run your car on water" scam. (Because I've just joined this forum, I can't post an embedded link yet but just Google "Run your car on water? - it's a scam!" (including the quotes) and you should find it.

It's sad to see people getting sucked in and paying good money to get a bunch of worthless information or some completely useless jars, wires and tubes that do absolutely nothing for their fuel economy -- although I guess you might get an extra mile or two to every tank-full on account of your wallet being a little lighter.

Please let people know that this stuff is just a rip-off.

[CRICKET]

Done A Lot Of Internet Looking At This Myself. If Looking For Mileage ,good Power And Tuneability, I Would Say That The Old Digital 2bbl Holley Projection TBI Would Be Hard To Beat, Especially For The Tuneability Aspect.(easy to dial back and run more hho into)

[gs_jimmy]

Any updates on this 65?

[LC2 Regal]

Hey guys,

This hho generator stuff does work.

I put together a homemade system for my runabout ford tempo 2.3 that was getting 24 mpg combined hwy/city. After i made and installed the simple hho system i get 36 mpg combined hwy/city.

Here is the best source of information i've found for doing the hho generator system.

mindstrain dot com

Once you go to this link you will see a topic " 100 year old secret" click on it and then read this guys results also he has plenty of videos on his site showing you how to make this system and he is getting 94% better mpg fuel economy. His name is Eddie Batista and he is a retired law enforcement officer and he puts all his hho info/testing info out free.

Most of the parts can be bought off ebay in do it yourself type kits for very low prices. I put mine together with parts i bought at a Lowes hardware store.

[BUICKRAT]

Fuel cells have been used for a # of years now in European countries with great results. Anything that reduces our dependency on oil is good. This technology has been around for years but smothered by big oil. If anyone thinks 1.50/gal gas is gonna be around for long, they are sadly mistaken. We need to reduce our dependency on oil, and promote alternative fuels. I own a gas station. The oil companies take all the profits. They will do whatever it takes to supress any information/technology that will reduce our dependance on oil.
A # of years back, a man in a neighboring town devised an oil burner/furnace/heat generator that could heat an average 1500 sq. ft. home in new england on about 5 gallons of fuel/season. After he applied for and got a patent, he was offered large sums of money for his technology which he refused as he knew his plans would be burned, men started mysteriously sitting outside his house in their cars day and night and phoned him to tell him where his wife and kids were and how easy it would be for them to have an accident. He was forced to sell his technology to them(for a pittance). From what I understand, Shell was the big one behind it.

[67RivDog]

Hey guys,

This hho generator stuff does work.

I put together a homemade system for my runabout ford tempo 2.3 that was getting 24 mpg combined hwy/city. After i made and installed the simple hho system i get 36 mpg combined hwy/city.

Here is the best source of information i've found for doing the hho generator system.

mindstrain dot com

Once you go to this link you will see a topic " 100 year old secret" click on it and then read this guys results also he has plenty of videos on his site showing you how to make this system and he is getting 94% better mpg fuel economy. His name is Eddie Batista and he is a retired law enforcement officer and he puts all his hho info/testing info out free.

Most of the parts can be bought off ebay in do it yourself type kits for very low prices. I put mine together with parts i bought at a Lowes hardware store.

Holy Crap. Thank you a thousand times for the above link. I have been a "on the fence" believer in this technology since I first heard about it. That website is what I needed to push and pursue this option.

Crazy or not, I'm going to try it. :Brow:

[DaWildcat]

Go for it Frank, nobody's been able to show empirical evidence of a gain by actually following the Scientific Method, so someone needs to be first!

Unfortunately there's an obscure NASA article floating around somewhere that the salespeople are claiming will support the idea...and it does as far as displaying an advantage of injecting hydrogen. But the report also shows that it is very likely impossible that an increase in efficiency could ever make up for the abysmal amount of energy required to produce hydrogen via electrolysis. In other words. to measure a positive gain, the hydrogen needs to be procured via a more efficient method. You can't just look at the performance of the vehicle, you have to factor in the losses required to make it happen to begin with.


Devon

[LC2 Regal]

Since i can't post any links i'll just tell you some more where to find the info for those of you that might be interested in gaining a little knowledge and learning from those who have allready put the hho systems to use and tested in the real world,on the road.

There are many videos showing these systems in operation with mpg test gauges being done on the road.

go to this link and do a search on "hho mpg test" there will be many examples to view for yourself. Some get a few mpg improvement and some get a lot,it's like anything else on engines it depends on how well you can tune the engine to work with the hho gas that will determine your results,i was only able to increase my mileage by 12 mpg with the free info i got from the link below on how to make the hho generator,this was before i found the link to mindstrain dot com which helped even more.

go here. you tube dot com

[DaWildcat]

One more time, sorry for sounding like a broken record...if you can get someone to donate the hydrogen, just perhaps you'll come out ahead - but all the testing I've sen so far was so shoddy it just makes me shake my head. Half the time the idea of a control as part of the experiment is thrown out the window, and more often than not multiple variables are involved without care. If you have to set up in the garage and plug in, or pay out of pocket for some other form of electricity to separate both H's from the O, you'll lose. Not sure if I can put in any simpler terms.

Devon

[LC2 Regal]

Well it appears some people don't understand how this system works and can't grasp the concept.

I have been a member here for a few years and don't come here often as you can tell from my post count. I just stumbled accross this thread asking about the hho and since i have personal experience with it i offered some input.

I really am not here to convince anyone that this system works what i do know is that it does. And when i go to the gas station to put gas in the car it costs me a lot less now then when it did before i made and installed it.

12 miles per gallon improvement in my case is 144 extra miles per tank for me for free and the gas pump tells me the real truth when i pay for the gas.

There is a lot of information on the internet about this subject all you have to do is a search and you will find it. I put my system together for just a few dollars since i had a lot of the materials needed in the garage allready but you can purchase the materials or a complete kit off the internet and if you shop around you will find some good deals.

I'm not here to sell you anything but it is your money so spend as much of it on gas as you want.

I do things my way and you can do things your way.

This is my last reply on this topic, good luck to those who can think out of the box and can put this system to use.

[70sLark]

Only problem is on a carb'ed car you will never know as you would have to change driving habbits as your jetting is fixed. Reguardless if you felt more power at a given speed and didn't need to give as much throttle, there would be no real proof that it works unless you change nothing in how you drive.


It would have to be done on a FI car where you can change no driving habbits but the computer could see the need for less fuel and cut it down as the same throttle position and not just you being lighter on the foot.

[DaWildcat]

That's been the biggest problem; trying to get good data from anyone on this experiment. Can somebody please publish data that can bear the weight of scientific scrutiny??? I'm not the type who will disbelieve something after it's been sufficiently proven, but it's my job to continue to try proving something false just as much as true, and the first 10 pages that google.com is sporting offers tons of folks who see something "working" but haven't the desire or ability to put the results in empirical terms...and they by far do not seem to be able to answer fairly simple questions based on physics. In addition, it would serve well the proponents of the hydrogen gas injection proposal to keep buried their personal conspiracy beliefs that typically surround the discussions. That kind of commentary does nothing to bolster their case for facts both known and unknown.

I read page after page of questions from those of us scratching our heads being answered with the "you need to think out of the box" crap. Before you can do that, you need to be able to think inside of one, too - and applying the Scientific Method would be one heck of a good start.

It's great for people to say "it works!". So far I have not seen/read anyone able to sufficiently answer the question why, or more specifically, what is actually happening.


...if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid — not only what you think is right about it... Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them.

- Richard Feynman

Devon