block girdle?

[rh455]

I am planning on building a big block for a possible Regal or GS project soon. I am definately going with Stg 2 heads and I already have the 494ci. rotating assy. I have read and heard from some friends different feedback regarding block girdles. I know a guy locally that has a high compression 455 w/stg 2 heads that dropped about $1500 on machine work alone plus the $500+ for the girdle itself. Is this really neccessary? I have never seen or heard of a Buick loosing a crank or having that much core shift to substantiate that much dough. I also recently read an article about enlarging the oil passages from the crank to the cam journals and lifter gallery. When I ran an Olds engine it was vice versa. It was recommended to install restrictors in the passages to cut back excess oil going to the crank. What do yall think?


Reynold.

[tommieboy]

It's not the crank that goes on a Buick 455, it's the block webbing. :ball:

Never ran a 494, but I've been told that you do need the gridle to hold things together.

I inquired about the 494, but the cost to do it right started to add up big time. Much more expensive than I ever thought.

The cost of the 455 build-up in the October 2001 issue of Car Craft was about 8 grand. you can add cost of the stroker kit, the girdle, additional machining cost for the girdle, and then some to come up with a ball park figure. :ball:

[rh455]

What goes on? Do they break or shift? I don't mind doing it if there is a definate need. I ran an Olds engine combo before and was sold lots of crap that I really didn't need after all. I have a few friends that have 455's w/10-12 to 1 compression but don't run a girdle. My plans are for a Stg 2 494,dominator,308s cam,12.5:1 compression. I really stuck on this girdle issue. I also see magazine articles claiming to build a 455 w/500+ hp w/no girdle. I have also seen articles on 455's w/ low (10:1) compression that do run a girdle but don't list it in the parts list.

[tommieboy]

rh455 said:What goes on? Do they break or shift?...

The block webbing is so thin, that it just fails when stressed to far. Just blows out the bottom. Adding a stroker kit just makes it worse.

The combination you describe should put out way more that 500 HP.

The Car Craft 455 build-up did 564 HP. I e-mailed TA about the lack of a block girdle on this, but I have still not gotten an answer.

[tommieboy]

And it doesn't end there.

Now you have to go out and find a 455 block that has cylinder walls that are thick enough to use the 494 stroker pistons.

Not all 455 blocks are capable of using these pistons. :af:

[Dave]

Reynold:

You will need a block girdle. You'll twist that block all out of shape with the kind of power you will be capable of building. And all that extra monkey-motion sure isn't good for power or longevity. I'll have to go down to the shop and dig out my receipt for installing my block girdle, but it was nowhere near that $1500 figure. I think it was less than a third of that, but don't quote me til I get the numbers. The crank will be fine its just those main webs that are lame. And the Buicks oil backwards, in that the oil goes up to the cam and lifters first then down to the mains. Since we need the oil downstairs, drilling the main feed holes out is a good thing (as long as it's done right). I wish they ran a separate galley for the mains......But that old Electra engine does pretty good with some good machine work and a little extra TLC. If you've ever taken a look at the bottom side of a 460 Ford or BBC you'll see some serious webs, we can only dream of that, but the girdle gets us closer. In my book its well worth the $$, I sure don't want to try to scrimp somewhere and run the chance of wasting an engine and other expensive parts. I'll dig out those receipts tomorrow.

[11SecondGS]

When I got my block done, possibly since my engine builder had never done a buick 455 girdle before, the machining of the girdle cost more than all of the other parts added up. I dropped $1200 bucks on the whole deal. My advice is spend the dough now, becuase you will then have a bullet proff bottom end, and 3 months from now, you will have forgotten how much the whole deal costed you. It will put your mind to ease if you ever go with better heads, or ever switch cams.

To make the whole process easier, go to a buick established place already, or someone who had done a couple buick 455 girdles before. It will be less time consuming for them since they already have the experiance, thus cheaper:)

[LARRY70GS]

There is an article in the Jan/Feb GSExtra entitled "Make That Short Block Live". They talk about using beefier Main billet caps in the center three positions on the 455 and the center two caps on the V-6. Says if you follow the recommendations you are guaranteed to have 50% less block flex and torsional vibration. Might be the way to go if cost is a factor and power levels are borderline. Cost for the kit is 199 for the 6 and 289 for the 455 including main studs.
Larry

[rh455]

tommieboy

You mentioned that not all blocks will take a 494" piston. Are you referring to the thickness at the bottom of the cylinder? I have noticed that every block that I have is different in this area. The same with the lifter journals. I started collecting blocks several years ago because Dave at TA told me that if the lifter journals aren't .250 you can't run a roller.:ball: It would be my luck that the block that I picked to build the 494 has the thinnest cylinders at the bottom:af: I do have two other blocks that I could use but one is too cherry and the other has rather corroded cooling passages. I think that it will be ok.

[GSXMEN]

When I was talking to Charlie Evans a couple of years ago at the AM&P booth, he said it would be about $500 to install the TA girdle. I think Mike told me about the same.

ALL motors can benefit from a girdle - especially when you're trying to reach the power levels that are available now!! When the main caps flex, you're bleeding off precious oil pressure!!

It may not be cheap, but it's money well spent!!

Scott

[tommieboy]

rh455 said:...Are you referring to the thickness at the bottom of the cylinder...

No. More concerned about the concealed water jacket areas. Because of internal casting variations from the foundry and normal corrosion from years of use, a thin spot can occur anywhere long the cylinder. You have to have your block sonic tested to be sure.

Should also add that some of the better blocks can take a .060 overbore and not overheat. But those blocks aren't a dime a dozen. You just have to sonic test to be sure.

[dpcp66]

I would look at it like this- $2400.00 for the 494,$2500.00 for STG2 heads,with a total of=$4900.00. Now think if the first time you over rev the engine or even open the monster to breath it could destroy that $4900.00 parts. Thats not even the machine work,cam,block,and oil pan. All of that money down the crapper because you didnt want to spend the money on a girdle. You wouldn't spend a $1000.00 on a rear end and then not put a rear end girdle on it would you? I would look at it as insurance for you motor. Its the only way I can justify spending the money I did on a combo like yours.

Doug

[rh455]

tommieboy,

When I have the blocks sonic tested, is there a magic number (thickness) that I should tell the shop to look for? I would rather rely on someone who knows than a machinist who has only done one or two. Also, does anyone know the cost of a set of assembled Stg2 TE heads? TA lists the SE's for $2250. The difference between the two sets bare is only $200. I am wondering if the prices are that close assembled?

[tommieboy]

rh455 said:tommieboy,

When I have the blocks sonic tested, is there a magic number (thickness)...

Magic number? I never really got an answer to that one. I think it depends on how much HardBlok you end up using. :)

But, I've been told from one person's observations that with the stock 4.3125 bore:

In a bad cylinder, wall thickness can vary from .170" to .060" within the same cylinder. :gt:

In a good cylinder, you are lucky if you get a variation of .130" to .100" within the same cylinder.

Kinda scary, huh!

I remember my Chevy friend complaining when his cylinder walls were slighty less than .200" on his new Chevy performance block. DUH!

[Jeff Kroeger]

I firmly believe that a TA Perf. girdle is THEE best ...But, P.A.E has a T-356 Aluminum PAN/GIRDLE that would be My second choice, although I don't think that it would add to the rigidity of the block anywhere near the TA GIRDLE. And also, I TOTALLY agree with the other guys who have answered Your post, that with Your HI-HP & HI-DOLLAR combination..........why try to save a grand on the FOUNDATION of Your motor ? By the way....that pan/girdle is also available thru Poston in Atmore, Alabama

[Jeff Kroeger]

And......if You wanna see the pan/girdle, the Man to talk to is Jim Burek......member name " Buick535"....owner/oper. P.A.E.

[rh455]

Is it neccessary to use hard block? I have heard of using it in 528"-542" blocks, but I don't know what applications should have it. This another one of those "if it's needed I'll buy it" things. I'm cool with the girdle thing now. I don't think I would have been as comfortable installing one if I hadn't talked with you guys. Right now I am looking at oil modifications between the mains and the lifter journals. I am also trying to decide between the Stg2 SE's and TE's. This will probably be the next thing that I order then the girdle. I've had the 494 rotating assy for several years still in the box. Now I'm getting the itch again. I guess I didn't learn the first couple of times.:spank:

[Dave]

Reynold:

I 1/2 filled my block with Hardblok. Its just a .038" over 455. I filled within 2" of the deck. Plenty of water around the top of the cyl. and it will give signifcant rigidity around the lower part of the cyl. When you do a 1/2 fill you need to keep the water jacket openings to the pump open. What I did was use two small (I think they were 1/2" dia.) rubber hoses in each opening and sprayed them with dry teflon spray and inserted them into the two ports at the front of the block, making sure they expended up to the deck and out through the holes in the front of the block. I then packed the remaining area where the hoses stuck out the front of the block with modeling clay, so the goop wouldn't run out. Make sure the block is level fore and aft and side to side (so the deck is absolutely level) and mix and pour. To make sure I got good coverage and no pockets of air I poured in the front, middle and rear of the deck and used a small electric vibrating sander without sandpaper to vibrate the block a little. Seemed to work great. Once it cured I simply pulled the hoses out. Along with the girdle I think it should be a pretty stout bottom end.

[rh455]

I hate to sound stupid, but like they say"if you don't ask you'll never know!". I've never used hard block before. I gather that you pour it in through the water jacket holes in the deck? I also assume that this is done with the freeze plugs in place? Also, how do you drain the block if the lower drain holes are covered?:Do No: I do like the idea so far. It seems simple enough.:TU:

[tommieboy]

rh455 said:Is it neccessary to use hard block? I have heard of using it in 528"-542" blocks, but I don't know what applications should have it. This another one of those "if it's needed I'll buy it" things...

Seems to be a common practice among the stroker engines. And like Dave already mentioned "it will give signifcant rigidity around the lower part of the cyl."


rh455 said:I am also trying to decide between the Stg2 SE's and TE's...

The TE's also require the use of the TA's High Port SP-2 intake manifold. So if you've got a SP-1 aready sitting around, well.... :ball:

[GS Kubisch]

I'm not sure about a sonic test to build a 494,Iwas under the assumption that a 4.350(+.038) bore was safe......
494=4.150 stroke with 4.350 bore.
"Hardblok" is alot like mixing concrete,and yes you do go through the water holes in the deck.
Take the time and be creative to manipulate the filler into the bottom of the block,you want pour some and tap or vibrate the block so that the filler settles to the bottom.
I filled to two inches below the deck,as the filler "set-up" I formed the passage to the water pump holes as they were covered at the level I filled.
It's not hard,if you do it,take your time and good luck.

Also check the post by Bruce Hunter ("dyno update")
He has a 494 that is fairly mild (except compression) and made big dyno #'s.

[tommieboy]

GS Kubisch said:I'm not sure about a sonic test to build a 494,Iwas under the assumption that a 4.350(+.038) bore was safe...

Someone on the old GSCA BB posted a photo of a Buick 494 that broke through one of it's cylinder walls while breaking in the engine on the dyno! :gt: The cylinder wall looked thin.

I thought I saved that on my HD, but I can't find it right now.

Considering the overall cost of the engine, sonic testing would seem to be money well spent.

[rh455]

Gary

I think I've got it now. One thing that I am wondering is do you fill the block with it level on its pan rails allowing the liquid to fill more on the outside of the cylinder where the most stress is or do you lean the block so the deck is level allowing even distribution even cooling?

tommieboy

You mentioned that the TE's are Stg 3's. Unless I read wrong the TA catalog lists the TE's right after the SE's then the Stg 3's.
I was under the assumption that the TE's were Stg 2's. If I am wrong this means the higher dollar rockers too.:eek2:

If this comes out right, this should be a picture of my car before I sold it.:ball:

[rh455]

I guess it didn't work. I tried to attach a photo but I guess I didn't do it right. I'll try again. Anybody know how to do this?

[tommieboy]

rh455 said:...tommieboy

You mentioned that the TE's are Stg 3's. Unless I read wrong the TA catalog lists the TE's right after the SE's then the Stg 3's.
I was under the assumption that the TE's were Stg 2's. If I am wrong this means the higher dollar rockers too.:eek2:

Nope, TE's are not Stage-3's.

The TE's are similar to the SE's but differ in that the TE's have a raised intake port, hence the need for the SP-2 intake.

You can use the TA's Stage-1 / 2 roller rockers with the TE heads. WOW, finally some good news. :grin:

[9secStage1]

T/A's Block girdle...the best, second to none! Don't be fooled there are other methods such as the beefed up main caps and Postons pan girdle, etc. But when you are going to sink big bucks in a 455 and push the envelope well over the 600 hp AND you are on a limited budget, it is the one to get. I did say limited budget, right? Well building a 9 second engine twice in as many seasons is definately breaking your budget when compared on buying and installing the block girdle, and having that engine last 3 or 4 seasons before you rebuild it for normal maintenance reasons. The block girdle will no doubt extend the reliability of your race engine keeping the short block stable when that flimsy block wants to twist under high loads. It not only gives strength but also stability and longivity to your race engine. Now if your building a street strip type engine, then lower cost methods are available and would make sense. And yes I do know a few guys pushing over 600 hp without using a girdle. Yes the block can handle it, but for how long. Is the saving of not getting one more than redoing another engine? Another reason on using one on the high hp 455 can be a safty one or piece of mind.
Case in point and a TRUE story. Back in '97 I had an engine pushing over 600 hp and punched out .060 over:shock: She ran strong and in the 10'0s on a 10.5 inch tire. Well on one particular run the #2 cylinder wall broke above the block fill (had the block short filled w/Hard Block). Well going through the eyes at 6700 rpm's the engine locked in an instant. After damn near soiling my pants and a nice wheel hop at over 127 mph I came to a slow stop. NOT a drop of oil was leaking out of my engine! NO SH%T here! We took the engine apart at the track (intake and heads) well, #2 piston was GONE! Piston rings and small pieces of aluminum was found on the other side of the engine in all of the cylinders. After a tear down the Crower Steel billet rod was jammed in the upstroke position into the inside water jacket lodged under the deck of the engine. The #2 rod was bent across the wide part of the beam, while it was still attached to the crank! End results were 2 wasted rods, one wasted head one wasted block and a broken camshaft along with the torque converter being broken inside from the sudden lock up of the engine. The crankshaft was actually still useable after I had it checked even the oil pan and girdle were undamaged!
Had I not been using the girdle the rod after jamming itself on the upstroke would have not bent, as it would have forced everything downward no doubt breaking the main webs sending everything out the oil pan. That would have been a huge distaster while doing 127 mph! The block girdle not only saved most of the engine parts it most likely save me from possibly kissing the wall at the end of the quarter from sliding on oil.
So when I hear someone asking about a block girdle because they are building a 600 plus 455 say .030 or more over, I say bite the bullet and buy it and have it installed by a good machine shop and be done with it. Think of it as an insurance policy and piece of mind.
One last remark here. My new 455 was the pick of a litter of 6 blocks that all were sonic tested. Highly recomended if you have more than one block to choose from. Borrow them and have them all sonic tested and pick the best one. I had my new one bored .040 over and of course still used the same block girdle that was on my old engine along with the same oil pan. The girdle still bears a scar (small dent) on the inside rail. But it withstood the engine explosion and didn't warp or bend.

Rick

[rh455]

When you fill a block with hard block, what is a safe depth to fill to before you run into overheating problems due to lack of enough coolant in the block?

[tommieboy]

tommieboy said:...Someone on the old GSCA BB posted a photo of a Buick 494 that broke through one of it's cylinder walls while breaking in the engine on the dyno! The cylinder wall looked thin...

Jack Haeffner just resent me the photo along with the following info:

Tom here is a picture of the block that mike is refering to in the topic: Maximum Boring 455 . If i knew how to post a picture i would post it! The block was bored to 4.350 . We ran the engine on the dyno and the very first pull the #4cyl. blew into the water jacket just above the hardblock. Had to install sleeves on #4 and #6cyls. Had extensive work done to block! Girdle and oil mods. Note: Did not hurt pistons or rings used all parts over. We repaired engine and done 14 dyno pulls up to 7450rpm. engine made 713hp. Ran at this years nationals in gs pro street went 10.50 & 10.60 engine runs perfect. At Gateway Dragstrip the car ran 10.44 @ 129+mph. Would have been better to sonic check block. Live and learn only been building buick engines for 30+yrs. This is the first block that i have any problem with! The above engine was in Steve Steele's copper GS. Feel free to post picture if you know how. Jack Haeffner

Jack, thanks for sharing the photo and info. :TU:

[Dave]

Reynold:

You want to make sure the deck is level both fore and aft and side to side so that the Hardblok is 2" from the deck at all four corners. For a block drain you can add a small rubber hose through the drain hole and run it up through the Hardblok to the deck. Spray it with dry teflon spray and then just remove it when its set.

[GS Kubisch]

Tommie
Like they say,"LIve and Learn",I geuss I've been lucky so far.Like I said I thought 4.350 was safe in all cases.I'll SONIC TEST my next motor....:TU:

[Adam Whitman]

Geez, you sure know how to make a guy feel good. My '70 SF block is girdled, but I was under the impression 4.35 was safe in all cases too. Now I'm wondering if I should tear it down and have it checked.....:ball:

[GBUICK]

Am I the only guy without a girdle & no hardblock? No problem yet,but I know I don't make anywhere near the # of passes most of you do.:jd:

[GS Kubisch]

I don't know him that well but Joe Chuba makes pretty good power w/o a girdle,he "pins" the main caps.
His car goes mid 9's,HP probably in the 700/725 range.
Not to mention this is one of the nicest racecars you'll ever see.(blue '69,backhalf car)

[GBUICK]

I feel better already.

[RACEBUICKS]

Here a picture of the TA girdle installed enjoy (BTW its for sale as you see it ready to assemble email me if interested)


http://www.networksplus.net/mrbuick/girdle.jpg

http://www.networksplus.net/mrbuick/girdle2.jpg

[rh455]

RACEBUICKS

How much are you asking for that block with the girdle? What is the bore?

[RACEBUICKS]

I have about $1100 in it thats what I need for it and its about .30 over

[QuikBuik]

GBUICK said:Am I the only guy without a girdle & no hardblock?
Nope. :gt: But I'm not making the hp/torque #'s alot of you guys are either. I just don't have much car to push........

[Kerry s.]

Hi Guys,

I, myself use BOTH the Hard-Blok and TA girdle for the extra peace-of-mind!! So, I agree with all who stated to use the TA girdle!! It's a FEW extra bucks but in the long run you WILL definately be glad you did!! Plus an added benefit that I do not believe I seen posted elsewhere is the FACT that it moves the pan (and especially the oil) further away from the rotating assembly and that will throw a couple of extra additional horses in the mix too. :TU:

Also.......when I grenaded my last 464 Stage3, and a TA 4340 billet rod let go at about 7500rpm it REALLY tore the internals out (if I could figure out how to post images I would show a couple of pic's). BUT the TA girdle survived with only a few "battle scars" and is currently be used for the Procharger build-up 475 cuber! From my experience with the TA girdle, that sucker is most likely indestuctable!!!:TU:

Hope this is of SOME help.......