Matching Numbers. What does it mean to you?

[Marco]

I'm posting this to hopefully start a discussion to educate people on what the phrase 'matching numbers' means when they are going to purchase a car. There is nothing wrong with a car that is not matching numbers, as long as the seller is honest with the buyer. I would like to get some people's opinions on what the (apparently over-used) phrase 'matching numbers' represents. I realize that there are different degrees of matching numbers, and I'll get into that soon enough.

I do not want to see anyone else get burned when buying something. The information is out - let's all use it.

To me, 'basic' matching numbers statement means all <strike>6</strike> 5 of the points listed below are satisified: VIN accurately reflects the car The engine block has the matching VIN and correct motor code stamped into it The transmission case has the matching VIN stamped into it and the correct identification plate <strike>The rear is the correct type and gear ratio for the motor/option combination</strike> The cowl tag accurately identifies the year, model, color, and trim. This does include the Fisher body number being verified by a 3rd party, where applicable Frame has the matching VIN stamped into itIf all above points are satisfied, there can be some additional 'cream on top' criteria. For example, a factory Stage1 car may come with the correct part # (and date coded) Stage1 carburetor/distributor. The car can have the correct part #/date coded intake/exhaust manifold(s), or they can at least come with the car. The car has the correct (and intact) grille and bumpers. Sheet metal, as well as glass, can be original or date coded. Original options (like GSX hood tach or stripes) are still present on the car. You can also get into concours type originality where the screws are the correct size/color, the firewall has the correct chalk markings, you have the correct style original battery, air cleaner, etc.

But, like I said, all the above is the cream on top. The above DEFINITELY adds to the value of the car in question. All things above can also be acquired - they do not have to come with the car. A little searching diligence (and, in some cases, deep pockets), is all you need. The <strike>six</strike> five points, however, once they're gone - they're gone.

I'll stick to my guns on the <strike>six</strike> five points listed above is what constitutes the 'matching numbers' statement. What say ye?

[RANDY TAUSCH]

Sounds good to me. One thing I have wondered about though. What do you do when the block is decked on a '70 and you loose the vin # from the deck surface? Unless you had the forthought to take a picture of it and can convince everyone that it is the same block, you basically loose your ability to prove that it is #'s matching.
Obviously, having all the items you mentioned match up greatly increases the authenticity of the car and therefore raises it's value substantially.
Randy

[stage-x]

Saw a Nova for sale once , sign said matching numbers. In very small print on the bottom edge of the sign it read, "vin number matches title.":Dou:

[462CID]

That sounds about right to me Marco. For me, use of the vehicle comes first and foremost, but if I were to purchase a collector car, it would be a numbers matching vehicle if at all possible. In a way, it's a relief to me not to have to worry about the numbers on my car anymore, but in another, it bugs me that it won't be matching numbers ever again- it was when I bought it, though. I'd like the option of doing a correct resto even if I don't really want to do one- rather do it on a real GS, it's a lot of work.

[69GS400s]

Marco - on #4.....The rears aren't stamped with the VIN ?? If not, id say its only VIN stamped Items so #4 , the Rear, would have to be omitted.

On the "correct" pieces such as carbs/distrib/ and date coded items.....you forgot Spark Plug Wires

[GS4551970]

Where are the numbers stamped on the frame? I had my frame completely striped last summer and dont remember seeing any numbers and i know my frame is original.

[Marco]

69GS400s said:Marco - on #4.....The rears aren't stamped with the VIN ?? If not, id say its only VIN stamped Items so #4 , the Rear, would have to be omitted.

On the "correct" pieces such as carbs/distrib/ and date coded items.....you forgot Spark Plug Wires

Alan -

You're correct. Rear axles can be replaced with one from the same year/same stamping. There is no VIN.

Make that 5 points for matching numbers :)

If you're talking about correct date codes, this goes FAR beyond what I have listed. I tried to keep it with major motor components, which is why I only listed the carb/dist. Basically, EVERYTHING is date coded.

Just wait until Duane sees this...

[Marco]

GS4551970 said:Where are the numbers stamped on the frame? I had my frame completely striped last summer and dont remember seeing any numbers and i know my frame is original.

Kevin -

The VIN is stamped on top of the frame near the driver's side door.

It is next to impossible to see with the body on the car.

[CIT]

One thing I have wondered about though. What do you do when the block is decked on a '70 and you loose the vin # from the deck surface?

The only reason I would buy a #'s matching car is to restore it back to original, if not already so.

If the block has been decked, the car is no longer a #'s matching car, because it can't be restored back to original, no matter how many correct dated parts you find.

[APVGS]

Hey Guys.I agree with Marcos points. A #`s matching car is probably worth a bit more $$ in the end regardless if it`s a Stage car,Skylark or GS350/455.In my opinion it shows that the car was maintained and not abused to a high degree.For any car to retain its original driveline after 30+ years is a positive feat in my books.
My GS for example in all honesty is very nice #3 driver,not mint by any means.But it is a matching #`s car and I am proud that it has survived with its original pieces.How many ``Muscle Cars`` still have their original engine/trans?? I would bet more than half don`t.Anyway,if a car is nice,it`s nice.I have drooled over many a car that was probably not #`s matching.Would I buy a nice non matching car?? Sure!! Only if the $$ matches the car!! Later,Tony.

[Brett Slater]

Hey all,

I feel I have to chime in on this one.

Having been lucky enough to find my "dream car" only a few miles from my house, I guess it would only be fair to say this: if your pockets are deep enough to spend the money for that "matching numbers" car, God love ya.

I know, on my income, I'd NEVER be able to find what I found, in the near perfect condition of some of the cars I've seen not only on this board but in other places. Not to take ANYTHING away from you folks who own those cars, not at all, don't take this in the wrong context...

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the original Q-Jet and Muncie in my car but if you really think about it, after (at the least) 31 years, GOOD LUCK trying to find that matching numbers car.

Some people are lucky enough to find these things, and to them I give :TU: The rest of us have to scrape and scrounge to find the right "date coded" carb, distributor and soforth, and that's not our fault. It's a result of (in some cases) 33 years of abuse, repairs, ignorance of mechanics, etc...I know, I'm rambling...

I guess I should probably get to my point and answer Marco's question. Before I do that, let me add this: I bought my car (1 of 101) with the original motor and rear end. The original Muncie is LONG gone, as well as the original Q-Jet (hence the numerous posts) and distributor. I was LUCKY enough to befriend a board member who had what I needed and I did as well regarding distributors, so we made an even trade.

Would I ever get rid of my car? No F*&^ing way! I take into consideration that fact that after 33 years (I'm going to venture a really good guess here) mostly everyone who bought these cars new, beat the living crap out of them and if you can still find one with at least one, MAYBE two of the MAJOR components STILL intact, good luck....

Just my two cents...sorry for rambling on....:Smarty: :Smarty:

[Ken Mild]

What is meant by the block being "decked"?? You mean the head mating surface? If so, you can still have numbers cause on my 69 400 it has the VIN numbers on the front of the block behind one of the pumps, (power steering, fuel whatever, I can't remember exactly, but they ARE there). I evenhave the original rear (most likely) because it's 3.08 12 bolt non posi which was standard fare on Canadian GS's and it matches my GM of Canada printout I sent away for. Most were 2.93's but some WERE 3.08!

[Marco]

Brett Slater said: Just my two cents...sorry for rambling on....:Smarty: :Smarty:

Thanks for rambling Brett - this is exactly what I'm looking for.

I'm talking purely from the perspective of someone buying or selling a car, and the amount of honesty/investigation that needs to be involved. I want people to know what they're looking at when making such a purchase.

After the recent issue of 'swapped' cowl tags (my opinion), I hope this post could inform us Buick folk of what to look for when buying a car. I don't want anyone to get something they didn't bargain for.

[Mike Trom]

Marco,

I agree with your 5 points and those are the points that I usually consider when someone says numbers matching.

Brett,

I think in your case since you do have the original motor the value of your car may be higher than if the motor was not original. (and that nice window sticker helps..:Brow: )



I am very lucky that my '68 GS is numbers matching (5 points) and almost all of the major components are original, except the carb that was traded by the second owner for a rebuilt '68 430 carb. Will I try to get the correct '68 400 carb......No, but if I happen to come across a good deal on one I will pick it up.

[Marco]

Ken Mild said:What is meant by the block being "decked"?? You mean the head mating surface? If so, you can still have numbers cause on my 69 400 it has the VIN numbers on the front of the block behind one of the pumps,

Ken -

Many cars have the VIN stamped on the drivers side of the block, between the front two spark plugs.

http://buicks.net/shop/images/id_400_430_1968.jpg

[Ken Mild]

In answer to Marco's question, the main 4 or 5 is all that's important to me. All the acoutriments (SP?) like numbers carb, distributor, voltage regulator screws, what have you, are just nice cocktail hour topics as far as I'm concerned. One shouldn't necessarily envelop his/her entire life on these types of items. That borders on major obsession IMHO. The normal course of service life sees to it that these items usually do not remain. So it's actually very acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

[Ken Mild]

Marco, I was aware of that, but now you've got me thinking too. When I pulled those heads off and cleaned the block in that area, I don't remember now if I saw the VIN there or where I earlier described, on the front of the block. Something tells me it was on the front of the block still. But I was aware of the stamping between plugs too. :TU: I need to check this weekend.

[APVGS]

Hey Brett.I like that GS in your avatar in yellow.Cool colour!!
I don`t think your rambling at all.I agree with your points.When I was looking for a car 6 years ago #`s matching was not a big concern to me.As long as the car was pretty sound and not beyond my mechanical abilities I gave it a good look.Most important was $$ and my GS was the best buy for the buck.It was not untill a month or so later I started to really check out the car and discovered it was a matching car.As I see it,if the car is right and the $$ is right,just buy it!! My turn to ramble!! Later,Tony.

[buicklawyer]

Marco , in Oldsmobiles the 5 points you listed are what we consider a matching number car. The additional things-- like distributor, carb that match can be those correct for the model , eg W-30 cars has specific numbered dist and carbs for certain years. This greatly increases the value. Just sold a W-30 car with Matching Numbers. You really have to question a seller on what he means when he uses that phrase. Most mean the engine and VIN match. John

[Mr Big]

Marco,
I agree that your (5) points are what most folks see as a matching # car....and it's a rare thing to find in a muscle car.

The engine assembly being what makes a muscle car is the most important.

Yes we did beat on em...I still do!
:Brow:

[Dan Healey]

I NEVER buy a car without matching numbers, you know, the vin matches the tiltle.:laugh: Nor should you.:Smarty:

[Phil Racicot]

My 67 Riviera GS had a matching # engine when I got it 3 years ago but the engine had low oil pressure... and dropped a few parts on the highway last year at 75 000 miles. There were missing parts of the block and cylinder and a bent part of the connecting rod that remained in the pan!. At that point, it was still a matching # car with a blown engine!
Then I found an identical 430 with same code from a 67 Wildcat that had 51000 miles and had it rebuilt. Now it has more oil pressure and runs strong, I would say the car is now worth more then when I got it with a weak engine at 65000 miles and definitely worth more than with the blown # matching engine!!

[r72gs]

It's funny how much of a premuim some things like matching numbers can bring. From what I've seen, my GS 350 would be worth more without the original engine. The 455 cars are more desirable, even if the car started off as a 350. At least thats the way it appears to me.

My original (numbers matching) block is no good, no worries about that any more.

Seems to me, most if not all of the 5 points can be faked without too much trouble. Maybe the forgery would be detectable to an expert, but to the average guy looking over a car?

[raresun]

Marco, I completely agree, and I'm glad you started this thread. I too have been wondering what most folks believe "matching numbers" means. I consider my Suncoupe "matching numbers". The serial number in the VIN tag matches the serial number on the engine, which matches the serial number on the transmission. I also have the correct carb and distributer, which to me is just "icing". I am glad they are there, but I would still consider it matching if they weren't. I also think the cowl tag should be represented correctly also. Again using my Suncoupe as an example, the paint reflects the correct color code, the correct interior trim and color, and so forth. Now, my convertible I would not consider matching numbers. The VIN tag, engine, and trans all match, but the paint, top, and interior colors do not match the cowl tag. The value of any car is really determined by the buyer and seller. The significence of a "matching numbers" car is that represents that vehicle as surviving as it was originally produced, which I believe brings a premium value.

[70sportwagon]

Great thread, Marco! I agree with most everyone. To me "matching numbers" means the original body(replacement panels/floors OK) with original attached VIN/body tag, mounted on the VIN stamped frame with the original VIN stamped engine block and heads, transmission and rearend (NO VIN but right code, year and date)

Carbs, distributors, etc. are all icing on top of the cake to me and would not bother me if they did not match. Of course from a pure value perspective every original part makes a $$ difference to someone!

My 71 stage 1 convertible that is going together will not be a number matched vehicle. I have the original block but it has a sleeved cylinder and I just don't want to beat it like that. All other components are matched including the carb, but it will have a 1971 block out of a Riviera built up in the place of the sleeved original.

Still a cool car but not really numbers matching, though it could be.

[txgwildcat]

The matching numbers game can be a real waste of time, effort and money. A car can always be made to look like a matching numbers car if you know what numbers are needed. Compare the term "Original" to "Numbers Matching", documentation like service and ownership history, build sheets, etc. seems like the only way to help establish Originality of a 30+ year old car. Would I pay more for a numbers matching car opposed to a car that has all the "Correct" components, NO way. Of course I never buy my cars with the intention of reselling them, I live to drive.

[Phil Racicot]

txgwildcat said:The matching numbers game can be a real waste of time, effort and money. A car can always be made to look like a matching numbers car if you know what numbers are needed. Compare the term "Original" to "Numbers Matching", documentation like service and ownership history, build sheets, etc. seems like the only way to help establish Originality of a 30+ year old car. Would I pay more for a numbers matching car opposed to a car that has all the "Correct" components, NO way. Of course I never buy my cars with the intention of reselling them, I live to drive.

I agree with you! That's exactly what I think.

[txgwildcat]

WOW! Someone agrees with me, that doesn't happen very often.:laugh:

[GSXER]

Matching #'s is basically the way it came out of the showroom...no dealer installed warranty block or trans...that maybe ok but not factory correct.Basically a numbers matching car has never been messed with, all others are just a bunch of stories.I guess maybe 1 out of 10 cars are still matching #'s cars as most have had the crap knocked out of them over the years.

[txgwildcat]

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17447&highlight=body+tag
:boring:

[Brett Slater]

I figured by now, this thread would have been buried, after all the good points that have been made....

Tony from Ontario, thanks for the compliment and to answer your question, the color of my car ISN'T the original color, Burnished Copper is. Bill at Buickstreet was kind enough to give it a "paint job" using his Photoshop skills...by the way, nice car back at you!

Everyone has made some valid points in this thread and having read the posts a few times, I think my take on this topic is this: In theory, EVERYONE, would like their car to be matching numbers, am I way off by saying that? The only problem is, after 30 plus years of beatings and other reasons beyond anyones control, a true matching numbers car is a RARITY, at best.

I have a friend of the family who has owned his 70 Stage 1 since new and still has the replacement block, in the car, rebuilt. I've been trying to get him to register with this board but he's hard to get a hold of, but that's a story for another time,eventually, I'll get him on here. Anywho...

He was a mechanic at Dino Buick here in (Stoughton) Mass. back in the late 60's, early 70's and scraped and scrounged to by his Sherwood (I think??) Green UNOPTIONED Stage 1 in late 1969. When I say unoptioned I MEAN unoptioned. Nothing, Zilch, Zip. The ONLY option he could afford was the Stage 1 package and that was it!

About 8 years ago he did a frame off, rebuilt the motor and drivetrain, basically went through the whole car and painted it the black he really wanted when he first bought it.

This time around, he added EVERY conceivable option he could get his hands on. Every power option, A/C, tilt wheel, cruise control, AM-FM radio, all the bells and whistles he COULDN'T afford way back when he bought it. I asked him why he went that route and he said, and I quote, "Why the hell not? Why shouldn't I be comfortable in this thing? Now it stops (power brakes) as soon as I touch the brake pedal, I can take a corner without breaking a sweat (power steering) and I just push a switch and the windows go down and the doors lock."

I guess what I'm trying to say is, his car is an "ORIGINAL" Stage car and he's the original owner who's unphased by the whole matching numbers thing...and has NO intention of selling his car anytime soon...

Don't get me wrong, who DOESN'T want their car to be the "matching number" car we all dream of? I just think some people have lost sight of what these cars are really all about, driving them and making other people scratch their heads as we fly by them...with the A/C on, rolling down the power windows...:Brow: :Brow:

[Marco]

This (http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19114) was the original post on the swapped body tags.

The seller did not disclose the (blatant) discrepancy between the body tag information identified by 3rd party documentation and the actual tag on the car.

Buyer Beware

[raresun]

Hey Brett, the example you give in your last post raises some questions for me. It is no longer "matching number" (in my opinion), because the data tag in no longer represented. However, it is still a real GS stage 1, not a clone. And the changes made by the owner reflect factory options that were available from the dealer, which as you mention, enhance the cars drive, ride, and comfort levels. Is this car considered 'original' or 'factory stock' ? even though the number don't match, it still represents how it could have been built. I think it does. I plan to clone my converible as a GS, then add as many options as can.

[gstewart]

george :
u are wrong . replacing a block , even under warranty , removes the #'s matching fact & would reduce the value of the car .
maybe someone could check with barrett-jackson or rm auctions & ask their opinion on this subject .
as an aside , a lot of buyers are only concerned with the engine being the original to the car .

[Brett Slater]

I think the point I'm trying to make is....well, I guess I don't really know what the HELL I'm trying to say....:Do No: :Do No:

I DO know that the last 2 posts are correct, in that, now that my friend's car has a replacement block and my he's added all those options, the data tag is no longer represented.

I also know that if he were ever to sell it, he wouldn't, in any way, misrepresent it by selling it as a loaded, "factory optioned" car, that's not his style. He merely wanted to make the car what he originally COULDN'T afford and since he is and will always be the only owner, good for him.

But, keep in mind, the car is STILL a factory Stage 1 car with 4 of the 5 "points" Marco mentioned at the inception of this thread, (minus the engine) as well as the right Q-Jet and distributor, build sheet, Protect-o-plate, yada, yada, yada....so I guess if we're using those "points" as an example, it IS a matching numbers car, isn't it?

[Nicholas Sloop]

I think that 99.9% of the collector car world would agree that a car with a replacement block is not matching numbers, not matter how original the car is otherwise (i.e. a real, documented Stage 1)

[Brett Slater]

Nicholas,

I agree...and give up...this thread, although informative, has become exhausting...

[TimR]

I think as brett said, it is up to the buyer/seller to agree what is considered #'s matching. I tend to agree with the masses here, the engine/tranny etc make it #'s matching.

Having said that, I had a #'s matching 71 GS 455 and once the car was done i was scared to hammer on it for fear of wrecking that.....my 71 GS Stage 1 , documented, is not #'s matching and thats fine with me, I have a row of engines in various stages of completion, if I blow one up, in goes the next, who cares?? I enjoy that car way more than I ever did the other one.

My 72 GS 350 convertible is #'s matching, still has the orignal battery ables even, but when its done it will have a 455 in it. Go figure.

So I guess if you are a car collector it matters, personally to me, I just try to make my car the best I can, I see lots of #'s matching cars (they never let you forget it) at shows that don't impress me one bit.

later
Tim

[Brett Slater]

Here's my friend's car I've mentioned in the post above...he took me for a nice half hour cruise today.....:Brow:

[Brett Slater]

Looks mean from the back, don't it??

[Brett Slater]

Nice, crack-free grille....

[Brett Slater]

Interior shot....

[Brett Slater]

and finally, the engine compartment...

[ricknmel67]

I'm probably a minority here....
I couldn't care less about numbers matching.
Matter of fact, I would very much PREFER a clone.
Maybe if I was rich, I might change my tune. But at this point in my life I have my cars to drive :3gears: , not show :boring:, and I don't think I'll ever change from that mindset.
I happen to think the GS options (scoops, badges, grilles, etc..) make the Skylark look much cooler. I don't care if it's a Skylark or a real GS. It'll look and drive just the same... and cost ALOT less.
Of course it'll be worth alot less too though.

But I've never made money on a car, and probably never will. It's a hobby for me, not a business.

So, for now.... numbers-shmumbers, gimme a non-matching, non-original clone that hauls butt and looks good! :pp


btw... sweet GS Brett!
:beer

[Brett Slater]

Rick,

I agree with what you are saying and I didn't dig up this thread to spark any kind of debate. I was merely showing a fine example of what someone who could care less about matching numbers did with a car that they've owned since new....

And let me tell you that thing drives like it's brand new!

[Marco]

Hey Brett -

Do we have this car registered?

[Brett Slater]

Marco,

I'll have to contact him this week and see about it. He's not a board member (yet) and I tried emailing him these same pics but the email got returned....

I'll get back to you....

[txgwildcat]

What I don't get is why someone would spend thousands more for a supposed original car than an identical car with no physical differences.

[Nicholas Sloop]

txgwildcat said:What I don't get is why someone would spend thousands more for a supposed original car than an identical car with no physical differences.

If you are talking about an original car vs. a clone, yeah, I'd pay thousands more for the original car. To me there is a huge difference in the warm fuzzy feeling of ownership of a GS that Buick built rather than one someone else built.

[Mr Big]

txgwildcat said:What I don't get is why someone would spend thousands more for a supposed original car than an identical car with no physical differences.

I guess you had to have been there "lived it" to understand it...The muscle car days were simply magical...

Anybody with the ability and some cash can build a nice street machine...i've had a bunch of em...

However, there's just something about owning a piece of automotive history.

Not tying to belittle anyone just trying to help.

[txgwildcat]

If there are no physical differences at all then I guess it is just a head thing. I guess I can relate to that. If I have a car that looks great but doesn't have the original quarter panels I always think about how much I wish it did. Even though nobody can tell the quarter panels have been replaced it will never be all original.

[Marco]

I thought the 'originality' we were discussing were the motor, trans, and cowl tag as it pertains the actual color of the car - not the quarter panels :Do No:

Remember, the thread was started because someone bought a car where the cowl tag information did not match the '3rd party' documentation.

[Mr Big]

Ok back on track...

Your original analogy is a good one.

I wont knowingly buy a car where someones been playing with tags and numbers.

Not even a 4dr sedan Rambler.

[MikeM]

Jesus Mary and Joseph.

This numbers thing can become a religion. Look at the Corvette owners and the craziness to have every part perfect.

Lets not go there.

Sure some cars are original. Most are not. Putting the 'nots' back right just isn't worth the money.

My .02

[txgwildcat]

For the sake of the cars it is worth putting them back to how they should be. What seems to be a wasted effort is trying to verify if it really is original. I like them to be as correct as possible but accept that they are not likely to be original no matter what people say.

[TimR]

I agree. However, in my case, the challenge for me in this hobby is to make it as close as possible....I love the details and the research and building the car probably more than driving them.

So "real" cars are more important to me than anything, but I accept the fact that not all engines, trannies or diffs will make it 30 years wihtout getting replaced.

Odd eh??LOL

later
Tim

[Brett Slater]

TimR said:I agree. However, in my case, the challenge for me in this hobby is to make it as close as possible....I love the details and the research and building the car probably more than driving them.

So "real" cars are more important to me than anything, but I accept the fact that not all engines, trannies or diffs will make it 30 years wihtout getting replaced.

Tim,

You've just summed up what I have been trying to say!

[70sportwagon]

<<So "real" cars are more important to me than anything, but I accept the fact that not all engines, trannies or diffs will make it 30 years wihtout getting replaced.>>


I agree with this as well.

In addition for me is the importance (either real or perceived) that 30 some years ago this car was built by people on an assembly line, it was special when it was made because not many were assembled and it survived to be a desireable car in the present time. The more parts that are original the better but I certainly do not dislike cars that have been brought back from the dead.

I am not a huge fan of retagged bodies but realize that it is better than having the major rust buckets all become tin cans.

[Gran Sport66]

I am pretty much a newbie on cars in general, but ever since I read "numbers matching"in an ad for a car, maybe ten years ago and had no idea what they meant. I subsequently saw it a few more times and one said "original numbers matching engine"
I just thought it meant the engine, and assumed that was the important thing. That it matched the car/body by serial number.

I agree with the "5 points" to be truly "N.M.", but I think if it's the engine, and trans, that should be the basic criteria.

I think I am lucky, and everything on my Riv is basically original, though I haven't checked the tags everywhere, but I don't think it is that rare. Just look at how the hobby has basically two camps-those who like to keep things stock (me) and those who like to hot rod, and mod the engine and trannny.

So, not taking into account how many trans had to be replaced over the life of those cars that were used a ton, (which still may have the stamps on the housing-does that get replaced usually?)if you are lucky enough to find any of these cars in decent shape, where their owners gave them pretty good care, I think many will have numbers matching engines at least.
As for the cowl, and whatever tags, those are often always still on a car unless major mods have been done after an accident, swapping engines etc. If this type of thing isn't numbers matching on a car that has had nearly everything redone, or a total resto, you really are paying for having a kool car that is nearly perfect, or even better than when it left the showroom floor. Numbers matching at that point is a matter of, what, heaping insanity on top of obsession (and drool!).

Hope this makes sense!

Chris

[Eric B]

Where are the date codes on the body??

[Dan Healey]

But the most common date is on the Fisher tag on the firewall, middle left side of the plate. Jan is "01", Feb is "02", etc... Then a letter follows "A" 1st week, "B" 2nd week, etc.... :bglasses:

[buickx]

I think if you are about to spend big bucks..... checking the date code on the body is very important... avoids buying rebodied cars.. also date code on glass.

[Eric B]

If I have to replace rear quarters and maybe the floor and get the sheet metal from a donor body how do I preserve the original date codes. Also if I replace the doors and front fenders from a donor car. Seems like this would affect the value of the car even if done right.

[Ken Mild]

If I have to replace rear quarters and maybe the floor and get the sheet metal from a donor body how do I preserve the original date codes. Also if I replace the doors and front fenders from a donor car. Seems like this would affect the value of the car even if done right.

Just playing devil's advocate here. I've done an incredible amount of thinking about this whole numbers thing and what it "really" means.

In my opinion, life is WAY too short to even begin to worry about date codes on sheet metal. Is it really worth all the heartache and grief to you to be concerned about this kind of detail? Some of these date codes are gone from sight once you fix the pieces to the car. I don't want to offend anyone. That's not my intention here. It's just that it almost seems obsessive compulsive in a way. Especially if it doesn't do much for the value of your car.

Even Barrett Jackson isn't really going to worry much about date codes on sheet metal. Carbs, distributors, "maybe", but even then, it's not really going to detract very much if the car's numbers match on "key" components, engine, trans, rear etc..

Don't over estimate how much a date code on a fender is worth. It's probably worth more to you than it is to anyone else.

Just my opinion of course. :Smarty: :grin:

[Eric B]

Thanks Ken. I am of the same opinion. The reason for my concern is that I have a "big buck car" that probably requires new quarters, maybe more, and I don't want to make an unnecessary mistake when replacing the sheet metal. Of course I would rather have a rust free door or fender then one that has been repaired and has the correct date code. Since I am not an expert in the field I appreciate the opinion of those who support this forum. Thanks again.

[buickx]

The concern wouldn't be with replacing doors,fenders,floor pan, but with reboding a car and transfering the vin...

[Mr Big]

Fix the car like your gonna get stuck with it or going to keep it forever.
Then enjoy it!

I think we all put to much thought into a cars presumed value. Jusmy2cents :TU:

[Dan Healey]

"I think we all put to much thought into a cars presumed value. Jusmy2cents"

The market could very easily tilt the other way, and we couldn't give some of these away. :Smarty:

[Nicholas Sloop]

If I have to replace rear quarters and maybe the floor and get the sheet metal from a donor body how do I preserve the original date codes. Also if I replace the doors and front fenders from a donor car. Seems like this would affect the value of the car even if done right.

You can not preserve the original date codes. That is why originality is worth so much $, (to those who care).
It WILL affect the value of the car (to those who care) even if done right. No way around it. What you have will never quite equal a car that never needed work done in the first place (to those who care.)

[Keith Seymore]

You can also get into concours type originality where the screws are the correct size/color, the firewall has the correct chalk markings, you have the correct style original battery, air cleaner, etc.


This numbers thing can become a religion. Look at the Corvette owners and the craziness to have every part perfect.

Lets not go there.

Amen, Mike. This whole "is the bolt the right color" thing is where I parted company with the Corvette guys, and here's why:

Back when I was a supervisor on the final line at Flint we used to have to install all the bolts across the front of the truck (fender nose bolts, across the rad support etc). We were SUPPOSED to use some black bolts, made by Ferndale Co, but they would crossthread unless you were really careful. What did we do? We snuck across to Line 2, stole their "Lang Manufacturing" bolts (which were gray cadmium), which didn't crossthread, and ran them all night. At the end of the shift we would lock them in our lockers, wash our hands, and then fill in the shift log complaining about how first shift was "running junk" and filling the yard with repair!

My point: I doubt the boys in St Louis were any more disciplined then we were... :Smarty:

Additional thought: so how come the black bolts crossthreaded all the time and the gray ones didn't? Beats me... :Do No:

[Carl Rychlik]

I think there is nothing wrong with someone who goes all out and really tries to make his car as close to original as possible.To have a numbers matching car is icing on the cake, and it is reassuring to see a car appreciate in value because of this.

Is it wrong to have a car that is not numbers matching? No. Not if you are concerned putting the car into show competition,but if you are,it does make a difference,especially to the judges.

[Da Torquester.]

I've had my 71 GS 455 for about 21 yrs. I did notice when I had the block decked the two lettered code on the drivers side deck was gone. I did get a picture of it before hand though. Also I did noticed the Vin # is stamped on the front of the driver's side head behind the power steering pump. Regardless, it's still the original engine that came with the car from the factory. And....I'm sure there are many GS cars out there with #s matching motors that have had their #'s milled off the deck during an engine rebuilding process. The #s might not be there anymore, but it's still the original engine that came with the car. Just my .02 John. :)

[Marco]

TTT

[Keith Seymore]

...Back when I was a supervisor on the final line at Flint we used to have to install all the bolts across the front of the truck (fender nose bolts, across the rad support etc). We were SUPPOSED to use some black bolts, made by Ferndale Co, but they would crossthread unless you were really careful. What did we do? We snuck across to Line 2, stole their "Lang Manufacturing" bolts blah blah blah...

As a sidebar, isn't it funny the things we remember? :confused:

That was 27 years ago and I remember that bolt part number was "3846202"....

I can't remember my own kids birthdays but I can remember that stinkin' part number :grin: :grin:

[Marco]

As a sidebar, isn't it funny the things we remember? :confused:

That was 27 years ago and I remember that bolt part number was "3846202"....

I can't remember my own kids birthdays but I can remember that stinkin' part number :grin: :grin:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[staged70]

Ok , I had my original 455 rebuilt . Unknown to me to straighten the deck it was milled . The shop stamped the numbers on the block face drivers side behind PS pump . They did this not of my asking . I would never try to sell a renumbered car as all original but I know it is . That said there is something else to consider . There are several levels of Numbers Match in my opinion
1) VIN and cowl tag along with Engine and trans numbers match good value
2) All numbers and date codes all match ie body, glass carb dist ect better value
3) car still has every part including paint,hoses,belts ,wires A true survivor car with documentation to prove it most likely in the original owners or his familys hands best value but very rare

These survivor cars are the ones that trade hands rarely for large sums along with cars with proven history ie the Reynolds Buick, Brads prototype, or the Motion car . A Ronnie Sox Hemi race car might be of some value if you can prove its pedigree don't you think ?
My take is that survivor cars are not driven along with 100k Kliner restos also worth a bunch and a few lucky individuals that can afford these cars want them to be Museam quality . after all they should be .
Now to my Stage 1 Suncoupe whats the value lost to me when every part is still there with 77k miles but the rear rusty half was replaced with a donor shell ? I know the date codes will show its a 71 in the back . Isn't that worth more than a patched together replacement sheetmetal from china resto ? But admittadly less than an unrusted survivor .
Its all relative as to what you plan on doing with it and what you need to make you happy with this hobby . I for one want a replica to beat on and a survivor to show . I have seen some very nice cars that have had the block replaced just recognise that itas not a survivor and do not pay that price for it . I feel like Buick guys are the best about this as I have seen some good cars sell for real good oney and some that are NOM sell for the right money by honest sellers .
Hey Marco you really opened a can of worms , I know of several cars ( mostly Mopars) that have had their good VIN tags and trim tags installed on rust free 6 cyl shells . This is common . I was asked by an unnames Mopar guy whats the problem I owned both cars and it turned out better than patching all those parts in from the donor and if I did that it wouldn't be original anyway ? I say its against the law thats why . The law would have you replace everything so he says all I did was cut out all the rust which was everything except the tags , funny but nnot my reading of the law . I would guess the law would rather destroy the original muscle car and make a replica .

[Marco]

...Hey Marco you really opened a can of worms...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This thread was started years ago, after a fellow board member bought a 'numbers matching' '70 stage1 that had the Sloan documentation body number not match the body number on the cowl tag :blast:

I *believe* the end result was someone swapped a stage1 VIN plate and motor into another 'A' body.

It's an 'education' thread :beer

[Mr Big]

The only reason anyone swaps VIN tags is $$$$. The tags add nothing to the use, enjoyment, and drivability of a car...only the value. What concerns me with the practice is "down the road" some future owner MAY forget about the tags being swapped, and then the car gets portrayed as something IT IS NOT! Along comes some more knowledgeable person who "outs" the car as a re-body, or what have you, someone starts pointing fingers, and everyone gets hauled into court.

Not my idea of a fun and enjoyable way to spend my spare time.

After 35yrs+ of involvement, I guess I still want to see this as a hobby, not a business...obviously others may feel different...and that’s ok too. :TU:

Bottom line "Know your facts" and research your car to the hilt.

[Mike Trom]

The only reason anyone swaps VIN tags is $$$$. The tags add nothing to the use, enjoyment, and drivability of a car...only the value. .

Agree 100% :TU: And I feel the same way about part restamping..

[Marco]

An oldie but a goodie :Comp: