'60 LeSabre 2 door sedan [Archive]

weim55

05-15-2010, 01:40 PM

Diggin' In......

I've taken the time go over the car stem to stern to make list and game plan to get her back on the road. The goal with the car is to simply have a decent functional cruiser. Not a restoration. I don't have the time, the money... and hey... It's a LeSabre 2 door sedan. Not exactly the best investment for a full blown resto. The original paint is weak but presentable. The interior is weak in spots but can be made pretty decent with minimal $$ and some elbow.

The mechanical is pretty much what you would expect for a 90,000 mile car with typical wear. The kicker is deterieration of some components from sitting for 35 years unused. Even though the car was in covered storage the whole time, there's alot of signs of moisture damage. (The car came from Carthage, Missouri.) The brake hydraulics need everything. The those cool alumium front drums are sadly corroded and pitted. They'll need to be replaced I think. Simple suspension stuff, lower ball joints, idler arm, sway bar bushings and shocks. The car lists to one side, a weak spring somewhere.

While the exterior of the car is almost completely rust free I did find some rust that will need attention. It looks like somehow there was standing water in both the front and rear passenger floor boards. I'll need to replace both of these areas. The drivers side floors and trunk are good and solid. All the glass is exceptionally good. All the chrome and stainless is there. While not perfect in some areas, it will all be useable as is with some cleanup.

The big problem area ($$) on the ole '60 is gonna be the engine. I was hoping a little oil priming, fresh gas and a battery might at least have the nailhead making noise. Sadly, not the case. The engine does turn over by hand but there is zero compression on most holes. With the valve covers off here's what I found. Four pretzeled pushrods, 6 of 8 exhaust valves seized in the heads, 1 exhaust valve upper stem bent. My guess is someone tossed in a battery and gave her a try with the above end result. 35 years is a little too long without running in that moist Missouri air.

The next step is to teardown the engine and check the rest as well as the transmission, clutch and sub systems..

Steve weim55 Colorado

nailheadrick

05-15-2010, 10:27 PM

Great car!! Keep us posted...

Junkman

05-15-2010, 11:49 PM

Nailheads are bad about valves sticking cosed when stored for a long time. The small diameter pushrods aren't much help, either. Aftermarket replacement pushrods , like Melling, are thicker. You may have to yank the heads and refurbish with a valve job. I've had this happen before and gotten by replacing all the pushrods and got running. The valves seat theirselves again after running for a while. But sometimes one or two won't readily seat and had to take the heads off for valve job.

weim55

05-16-2010, 09:14 AM

Righto Ted, What really stinks is one of the exhaust valve stems bent instead of the pushrod. So now I have to take off a least that one cylinder head to repair it. That said, i figured the heck with it, might as well just pull the whole drivetrain and inspect everything.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Junkman

05-16-2010, 11:47 AM

I looked at a guy's collection in Georgia this week and he has a '60 Electra 4dr 225 for 600 or so. He said it ran. Probably too far for you,tho.

lrlforfun

05-16-2010, 09:43 PM

OK Steve: I have a 64 Riviera that sat for almost 20 years in a pristine garage in a pristine climate . It fired right up but started to self destruct after about an hour of running. I next took a compression test to find a few cylinders at 0. I took it apart and there were bent push rods. I replaced the push rods and lifters and put it back together. Still no go. I had a guy pull the heads and found a few stuck valves. I fixed the heads and put it together and now there is 62 pounds in one cylinder and it's blowing by like crazy......so bad the smoke is coming out the dipstick hole.

Even if the stupid mechanic leaked it down, the lower end is no good and now the engine has to come out for the short block o'haul. Even though a 364 is 10X better than a 425 expect to go through the whole thing. One suggestion though. Don't raise the compression because too much power will tear up that 3-speed. I have a 60 Lesabre with a 3-speed and the gears were crunched partially because of that thing. That's why the factory put in a low compression "syncromesh" engine. Good luck with your project, Mitch.

weim55

05-16-2010, 10:03 PM

Mitch,
That's interesting information on the low compression 364 with the 3speed stick. Rated at just 210 horsepower, my 364 is down a full 115 horsepower from the 401 nailhead in the upper series cars that year. From the information I've gathered no other engine in the '60 lineup was available with the stick tranny. Also the origins of 6 bolt top cover 3 speed go all the way back to '37 model and the straight 8 days. 1960 was the last year Buick used this trans as well as the torque tube enclosed driveshaft.

Ted,
Thanks for the heads up on the parts Electra. But yea, just to far to go for parts. A shame, I could sure use it.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

05-17-2010, 10:43 PM

The drivetrain is out and engine is torn down. The engine number matchs the VIN so this is indeed the original 364 to the car. Starting with the heads I found pretty much what I already knew. All the exhaust valves are junk, a couple of intakes too. Some bad guides. Yep, they need a total rebuild. Rockers and shafts look exceptionally good. Could clean and reuse. The front most lifter is wiped out as well as the cam on that lobe. The cylinders have one of the worst ring ridges I've ever seen. Not sure even a .040 cut would clean it up. Guess those 3.91 gears put serious wear on this thing for that short 90,000 miles. On the other hand..... the crank and bearings are OEM 1960 and they all look great. Polish and go on the crankshaft. All the bolt ons are good for a clean and reuse.

All in all, some good some bad.

The bottom line is this thing really needs a complete rebuild. And as you nailhead guys already know, that's a pricey undertaking.

I took the cover off of the tranny for a quick once over. It all looks good. Clutch is shows a little wear but I'd deem it good to run some more.

The exhaust is total junk from the y pipe all the way to the muffler.

The original radiator is cracked on top tank and will need repair.

All the usual hoses, fuel system, cooling, ignition, belt, filters, etc. need replaced as expected.

Motor mounts are shot.

$$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$

Bummer. I can't justify the cash spent on a rebuild for the motor. Not right now anyway. Since I picked up the car last summer I've kept my eyes open for a good running used nailhead. No luck, these things are all 44 + years old now. A hard find.

Hmmmmm....

Gonna have to think on this one awhile.........

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

05-20-2010, 09:15 PM

Score!!

This car showed up on ebay a little while ago. The starting price was a little high for me at $1500. No bids and the car didn't sell. I wondered about it and emailed the seller to see if it ever sold. Got in touch to take a look and found a great parts car for my LeSabre. I offered $800 and he took it!

The Invicta will donate alot to the project. 401 runs great! Absolutely silent smooth running motor. No smoke. Floor pans, front drums, misc interior parts, other 2 correct wheels, radiator.... Power steering should I elect to change.

And I'm sure a whole bunch of other stuff!

As a cool little bonus the car runs and drives (pretty well I might add!) so I've driven her around the rural area I live some miles. Neat to get a sample feel for what it will be like to cruise the LeSabre.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Smartin

05-20-2010, 09:27 PM

Nice score!!

bhclark

05-20-2010, 10:28 PM

Nice score Steve!!!!!

lrlforfun

05-21-2010, 01:09 AM

OK Steve; This Invicta is way too good to part out! It in fact is probably a better car than what you have. Just my opinion. Mitch

Caballero3

05-21-2010, 06:20 AM

I have a good running low (364ci) compression engine from a '57 Special. I will let it go on the cheap. It is in Northern Colorado. PM me if you like.
Dan

weim55

05-21-2010, 07:12 PM

You east coast guys would probably wanna hang me for parting out such a solid car. While it is saveable looks are a bit deceiving. The interior is totally roached, top to bottom. The exterior is pretty straight but does have a fair amount of rust down low, terrible chrome, damaged and missing stainless. Plus years ago somebody "got started on it" removed a number of vital interior and trim peices that have since disappeared. The car was vandalized a bit too as you can see in the pics. A shame really as the clock shows 67,000 miles. Judging by condition of most of the car and the way it runs and drives I'd bet that mileage is right. I think she'll help more than a couple of '60s live on though. This weekend I'll go over the Invicta top to bottom to see how much is good for more use.

Steve weim55 Colorado

lrlforfun

05-21-2010, 08:58 PM

OK Steve; I can have that car looking human over the weekend. I have every part to complete it and I could have it serviceable (running and looking decent) in the time it takes to do it.

Like I said, you have 10X the car as your Lesabre. Trippple pedal is all mythology. Wait until you start driving it with a decent compression 401. The tranny will scatter much sooner than later. I am in that dilemma myself. Mitch

weim55

05-21-2010, 09:34 PM

I can't help it Mitch. I'm always a hot rodder first! I can't tell you how hard it is to keep my mitts off this thing and leave it alone. I have three complete ready to rock 455s in the garage. Love to put one of those in the '60 ! But I won't. The soul of my LeSabre is a nailhead, so that it will stay. How's that for restraint!?

For all the bad things I've heard about Dynaflows (dynaslush....) I wasn't too keen on having one those in my garage. I've never actually owned a Buick with one so I can't speak for myself on that one. Until now....... That Invicta runs damn good with that Dynaflow! Good acceleration, shifts well and firm. It doesn't even leak. The automatic makes that machine a great cruiser.

But yea, I dig the stick in the LeSabre. I always like oddball, rare optioned vehicles. Putting the LeSabre together with the 401 will be kinda neat. Sorta like the factory hot rod Buick never built. The no option 401 stick 2 door sedan. I like it! Although that 3 speed looks pretty husky if it expires I have a spare. Or even better I thought it would be fun to put a 4 speed in it. Carefully installing it with components to look as factory as possible.

Hot rodding aside..... this car will be a cruiser. A highway machine. Quiet and comfortable. When I purchased my GS 455 it was bone stock. With 2.93s, stock exhaust, quiet 455, it was a beautiful, smooth, tight highway machine. I miss having that. I'll keep the '60 on track to that theme.

A couple more pics of the parts Invicta. Not so nice...

Steve weim55 Colorado

lrlforfun

05-22-2010, 12:35 AM

OK Steve: Every forum is different. The HAMB people would prime that 60 Lesabre 2 dr. sedan, put the Mexican style blankets over the seats, heat the springs, paint the wheels bright red and add some fat white tires. The BCA people would want to leave it stock doing as many anal touches that are authentic and correct. The B-59 people would like the car only if it were clean to begin with although it's one year too new for them.

I can see going through that 364 , cleaning up the body and interior a bit............BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THAT INVICTA SEDAN YOU HAVE. If that Invicta were a convert in that shape people would be chewing the fenders off of it trying to buy it. 4-dr sedans are the least popular body style, for now.

I distinctly remember guys cutting up 59 and 60 Electra converts 25 years ago. Who would do that today?

Don't cut up that Invicta sedan! Mitch

weim55

05-25-2010, 09:51 PM

Yes of course, I feel a little guilty cuttin' up the old Invicta. But anymore I'm all for seenin' stuff just gettin' USED. No more sittin'. The cause is good. The LeSabre will see the road instead of sitting. And many a '60 will benefit from the parts. I'm not a crusher guy. I'll take off every useable part that might find a home.

This parts car is the best thing that could happen for the project. I went over the car throughly. Here's what will get used..... the complete engine, radiator, power steering setup, passenger floor pans, door sill cover panels, radio buttons, arm rest bases, various interior trim and trinkets that are in better condition. The brakes were just done (maybe 30 years ago) with almost zero miles on them. Drums, shoes, hardware front and back. I'll use the coil springs if they look good when I take 'em out. New looking still tight air shocks in the rear (more 30 year old stuff). The complete rear axle assy with 3.23 gears (I drive almost all highway). A few peices of exterior stainless that is in better condition or that I would like to add. Gas tank, since it's already clean and i know it doesn't leak. 2 correct '60 wheels 15 x 6. Some great spares: generator, starter, regulator, tailights, front lenses, cables, switches etc......

Well worth the 800 bucks and I'll probably get about half that back sellin' off good parts to other homes.

Game plan: #1 goal, just get it done! I'm tired of all the 4 wheel yard art I have with "someday" plans. This won't be a restoration. I'll be doing all the work neccessary to get the car running and driving. Reliable and safe. While most of the appearance stuff will remain as is, I'm a stickler of stuff workin' the way it's supposed to. Every switch, knob, system, component, etc. has to work as it intended to. One by one I'll tackle each. Should be a pretty simple deal. (yea right...laughs..)

In the beginning I had a goal of making the car road worthy for a total cash outlay of $4,000 dollars. That's including the purchase price of the car. Am I dreamin" ??!! I still think I can come in pretty close. Be cutting some corners and reusing EVERYTHING I can. I'll post the numbers as I go. We'll see.................

The first lofty goal I have is to get the old girl running under it's own power by the 4th of July. So much easier to work on a car that runs.

Let's get to it.................

Steve weim55 Colorado

bhclark

05-25-2010, 10:04 PM

Hoo-Raw!

Get 'er done!

weim55

05-25-2010, 10:12 PM

First things first.... gotta get the car in position to get operated on. Here's the "professional" shop I'll be working out of. Yep.... that be the driveway! Hey this whole project is low buck, might as well follow that theme all the way!

I decided to knock out the rusty floors first as the exhaust goes right underneath and I don't want to deal with that in the way later on. Plus I dispise doing rust repair so I thought I would get the ugly stuff out of the way first. These are the two areas getting cut out. And a pic of that solid floor in Invicta parts car. Man I love Colorado cars!

Steve weim55 Colorado

telriv

05-26-2010, 04:29 AM

If you end up using the 401 remember, if you don't know, the out of balance between the 364/401 flywheel/flexplates is different. The 364 has an out of balance of approx. 3 1/2 ozs. & the 401 approx. 4 1/2 ozs. Using the stick flywheel from the 364 without adding the additional 1 oz. will give you an out of balance vibration. You will also need to remove the pilot bearing adapter from the rear of the 364 crank & install it in the 401. Put them both on a bubble balancer & you will see. Weight gets added in the same area. other than this it's a bolt-in swap. I've torn up many of those 6 bolt top cover trans. CAN'T "Speed shift" 1st-2nd. The only way to go something different is to go to an open rear. MUCH WORK!!!!!

Tom T.

weim55

05-26-2010, 10:31 PM

Correcto on the 364 401 balance issue. Berensens (spelling?) has some wonderful stick shift parts including new flywheels for 401s. I'd love to go that route but it's just too pricey for me. I called them and discussed my situation and they offered to balance my 364 flywheel to 401 specs for $80.00. Works for me. And yea, no speed shiftin' the column three speed. If I want to do some gear jamin I'll choose a car in the garage that can handle it. Thanks for the advice Tom.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Hector

05-26-2010, 11:55 PM

I really like what you are doing with the car Steve,glad to see that you found the other car.Good luck with it.

telriv

05-27-2010, 06:37 PM

Steve, you don't even have to spend the $80.00. Just put them on a bubble balancer & add the one oz. in the appropriate area. You could even drill a hole & bolt it on or use a tack weld. No big deal.

weim55

05-27-2010, 09:44 PM

Tom,
I was layin' awake in bed last night thinkin' the same thing. How tough could it be to change one ounce? Here's pics of the stock 364 flywheel. As you can see it's almost a neutral balance. The factory took metal OUT to balance it. Do you mean I'd have to take another ounce OUT of the flywheel in the same area to balance per a 401 ?

Thanks,

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

05-27-2010, 10:04 PM

Surgury time.......

Got the patch panels cut out of the parts car and the preliminary cuts done on the LeSabre.

Cutting the passenger rear footwell out of the parts car was a peice of cake. Zip, zip with a cut off wheel, done. The front footwell was an absolute nightmare. Layers of sheetmetal, braces, the frame, and a bazillion spot welds. No easy way to get this out cleanly. In the end I used a cutoff wheel and the torch to get what I could in one peice. A section above one of the braces was rusted a little too. So the front floor is going to have be cut, trimmed and puzzle welded together.

I like my Eastwood spot weld drill bits. Made quick work of removing the braces from the replacement panels. Another nice surprise is the floors from car to car are EXACTLY the same in every dimension.

No turning back now............

Steve weim55 Colorado

telriv

05-28-2010, 02:00 AM

You need at least a bubble balancer & you need to ADD weight. It is usually in the area of the reference hole for the flywheel/flexplate on the outside edge.

weim55

06-01-2010, 10:34 PM

Floors.....

Got my first taste floor pan replacement this weekend. Not too tough.... I started with the rear pan first as it's much easier to work with than the front. Good practice. With everything trimmed close to the final size I laid the replacement pan from the parts car in the hole to aline for the final cut. A neat surprise here, all of spot weld holes I drilled out are in EXACTLY the same place from car to car. To aline perfectly all I had to do was line up the holes, screw the pan down to the braces through those same holes and final cut the pan with a cutoff wheel. I butt welded the pan in place from there. Pretty straight forward.

Next I gotta do that nasty front pan....

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

06-06-2010, 09:18 PM

Look Ma, No Holes !!

Finished up the floor pans. Passenger front was a bit of a pain. Had to peice together sections as I thought. Turned out pretty good. I was able to butt weld 3 sides but had to lap weld a couple of areas in the toe board. Not restoration quality. Good solid driver quality.

Knowing what I do now it probably would have been easier to pony up for a replacement floor section for the front. Way too much time cutting out the replacement from the parts car and no real good way to get it out cleanly. As for the rear the used panel was the way to go. An EXACT replacement. Easy work with and install. Using it was a good call.

Finished the floors with one last small hole by the speedometer cable on the drivers side floor. There's still a full day of work to finish out cleaning up the surface rust and POR 15 the entire floor. I'll get to that when I start on the interior after the car is running.

My 15 year old son Kenny and I pulled out the 401 and Dynaflow from the parts car today. Next in line is all the mechanicals..... Drivetrain, brakes and suspension........

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

06-15-2010, 10:45 PM

Scrub, scrub, scrub.............

Sriripped off the entire front suspension off the parts car for the really nice rust free parts. That will keep the LeSabre a roller while I ready all the front end parts.

Next up is getting all the mechanical stuff ready to be checked, refreshed, resealed, rebuilt or repainted. 50 years of nasty grunge......... I've spent hours with the Hotsy pressure washer on the suspension, engine compartment, transmission, and all of the 401 components.

No romance here. Just down n dirty work.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

06-15-2010, 10:49 PM

Forgot some pics......

weim55

06-18-2010, 11:36 PM

Brakes and Firewall stuff...

I need to address all the items that are more accessible with the engine out. First is the master cylinder. One of the few mods I'll be doing is changing over to a dual pot master cylinder. It's just a must for safety. I will not own and drive anything with a single pot master ever again. (yea, I have one of those disaster stories to go with that statment....) One of the problems with this swap is since the car is a stick shift the clutch linkage comes out of the firewall right next to the master cylinder. So that means, A: 3 speed cars weren't available with the power brake option so I have to stay with a manual system. B: The master cylinder must have the lines come out the passenger side to clear the clutch linkage. C: The brake light switch is a pressure switch screwed into the master itself, unusual indeed.

In the pics of the original you'll see the brake light switch and how close the clutch linkage is to the cylinder. So close that because of wear it's sawing into the cylinder. Not good........ AAFD over on the HAMB board turned me on to the perfect master cylinder. A NAPA 36237 for 70s Jeep CJs and DJs. Correct line outlets, bolt spacing AND it has a port for the brake light switch! Too cool!

Tomorrow I'll go about getting it put on the car and running the plumbing for the system.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

06-20-2010, 12:01 AM

Dual Pot Master Cylinder Install.

This would have been a peice of cake on a Dynaflow car but with the clutch linkage to deal with this is a whole different story. Not too tough, just time consuming. By modifing the linkage pivot, the firewall mount and the master cylinder itself I can still run the original components for clutch linkage. My son had an old '59 chevy pedal swing that had all the components I would need to complete the rest of the changeover. Shallow head master cylinder bolts to clear the clutch pivot mount, longer cylinder pushrod mated with the original to fab a new one the correct length, a pedal stop for under the dash since the original unit doesn't use one. Running the new lines was straight forward. Was able to retain all of the original plumbing past the original junction block on the frame. The prop valve is off a '69 Chevy truck. Perfect because is has 4 total ports. Most others have 5, 2 ports for the front outlet lines instead of one. Less work as I can keep the original front junction block and lines untouched. Had to notch the master on the left side to clear the the swing of clutch linkage. All I have left to do at this point is weld in the pedal stop when I have the dash apart and paint the unfinished parts. All in all it turned out pretty clean.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

06-20-2010, 12:04 AM

Pics.....

weim55

06-20-2010, 04:57 PM

Firewall......

All the working stuff that hangs off it. The heater on this thing has a vacuum operated air door and the fan switch is on top of the plenum box bolted to the firewall. Cable operated and completely seized from sitting 35 years. Take it all apart. Clean scrub and lube everything, go to try it out and rusty control cable breaks in half. Damn. Ah... but we have a parts car 20 feet away (I love parts cars....) with a non rusty Colorado cable! Takes care of that function. Every part of that system, the fan switch, the vacuum pot and vacuum switch still function well with a little clean lube and adjust. All works great! Took off the blower fan and lubed that, tested it and works good. The wiper motor barely worked. Wipers would move slowly a couple of inches and then trip the breaker. Same story as everything else...... take it apart, clean lube and adjust, remount. Wipers work smooth and good.

OK..... that takes care of the engine compartment. Next I gotta get cracking on that drivetrain. I don't know about makin' that July 4th date to have her makin' noise but I'm sure gonna try.............

Steve weim 55 Colorado

weim55

06-27-2010, 10:46 PM

Bad Weekend....

For LeSabre duty anyway. Family commitments and a broken riding mower wiped out '60 time this week. I was able to take a couple of hours today to strip the front suspension off. All of the good stuff from the parts car as well as new parts are in and ready to go. Hope to have the complete front end and brakes done by the end of the week. Losing this weekend puts me behind but I still hope to have the 401 churning some horsepower in its new home two weeks from now.

Added a couple of bonus pics. I picked up my son from camp in New Mexico and spotted these three black hardtops off a twolaner sitting on the side of house in Nowheresville.............

weim55

07-06-2010, 09:58 PM

Front Brakes and Bearings

All of the front brake components are off the Invicta parts car. Compared to the LeSabre setup, everything is the same. Someone had done a full brake job many years ago but the shoes and drums are just broken in. Quality rivoted Bendix shoes and hardware. Just cleaned and lubed everything throughly. One of the wheel cylinders looked like it had been leaking for years. It ruined the hub spindle seal and filled up the hub with brake fluid. The inside bearing race was pitted badly on that hub. Was the brake fluid the cause of the race failure? I stole the good bearings and races from the LeSabre hub to replace the bad ones. I ordered NAPA replacements for the wheel cylinders and brake hoses. When got these a few weeks ago I noticed one box of each of these were made in China. The other USA. The USA wheel cylinder is a dead on match for the original. The China cylinder has a loose but acceptable fit in the register hole, casting looks nothing like the original. It's the one in the pics. The hoses look the same but the China item is printed "SUNSONG" Jeeez....... do I want something that says "SUNSONG" on a '60 Buick?!............Oh and sealing washer that came with the China hose was the wrong size. Useless. I ran the china parts since the other NAPA stuff I checked was China too. And it's gotta get done. Will I regret this later?

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

07-06-2010, 10:24 PM

Front Suspension

All of this is from the Invicta parts car too. Everything was original and in amazing condition for it's age. Only the lower ball joints, sway bar bushings and shocks needed to be replaced. The original Saginaw idler arm, tie rod ends, upper ball joints and power steering box are still tight and like new. Every component of the center link was perfect. Barley noticeable wear. Throughly clean, inspect, adjust grease and run. Kanter lower ball joints are a slightly different style and cast instead of stamped steel like the originals. They fit great. Sway bar bushings from Kanter are universal and needed a little grinding to fit the original mounts which you have to run because of the unique frame spacing. Kanter end links are nice quality, solid tight rubbers. Fit perfect. The Invicta sway bar is a little bigger too so i ran it. One of the LeSabre coil springs was weak so I ran the Invicta springs too. The coil diameter is the same but the Invicta spring has another 1/4 coil in it. (the LeSabre spring is on the left in the pics) The manual steering center link is a little bit longer on pitman arm end but everything else is dimensionally the same. Pitman arms are diffrent too. NAPA shocks were wrong, have to finish the job with the correct ones later. All the front suspension flew together nice. Be great to have some power steering too!

weim55

07-06-2010, 10:29 PM

Wrong pic posted, here's the correct one of the springs...

weim55

07-06-2010, 11:12 PM

Wheels and Tires.

This seemed easy enough....... grab the four correct '60 rims between the two cars and go. Good thing I checked to see if any of them were bent. Three out the four were bent. Of the six remaining wheels, five of those were bent too! OK...... thought I could steal the rims off a '70 Electra parts car I have. Negative.... the center register hole at the hub is smaller on the '70. Won't work. Damn. I was able to grab the two best rims of the bent pile and carefully hammer 'em straight. Problem is all four of these rims are different from one another. Two 15 x 5.5s for the front and two 15 x 6 for the rear. This bugs the heck out of me but they'll do the job until I can find a matching set later. Just did a quick clean, power wheel strip, hand sand and paint the rims black.

The LeSabre originally came with the small center hub cap and body colored rims. Caps are supposed to be "BUICK" in block letters. Cool, but almost impossible to find in usable condition. I found a set of '61 caps that are close (in the pics) but these won't fit three of the early wheels that I have on the car. I'll have to run the optional full '60 covers (which are pretty damn cool too!) until I change the wheel situation. Had to paint all the rims black since you can see through the vents on the full caps. I hope to find a set of old aftermarket chrome reverse wheels with the correct Buick centers. Blast 'em, paint 'em body color with the correct caps. Would fill up those wheel wells and give it a little meaner, cop car package look.

I found out why so many of these wheels were bent. When I tossed the first one on my 40 year old Coats tire machine I didn't get wheel screw on the machine completely tight. It bent the center of the rim instantly when i started the bead breaker! On closer inspection these old wheels are some fragile junk. Thin, poorly stamped, little reinforcement. The '70 wheels are three times the quality and structure of these old things. The old wheels wouldn't survive a minor curb hit. Hence why so many of the ones I have are junk.

A couple a little bits...... Lug "bolts" are different front and rear. Wheels have protruding "bumps" for the bolts that secure the brake drums in the lug area. Holes for the pins too. The center register hole is the biggest I've ever seen on a Buick. You can't just toss on any 'ol 5 on 5 wheel on an early Buick.

Tires are just some old 225 75 15 whitewall radials I had sitting around. They'll do the job..............

Steve weim55 Colorado

bhambulldog

07-07-2010, 01:36 AM

Very cool. Interesting about the wheels. Also, the brake light switch looks similar (identical?) to my 55. Although, the master cylinder on a 55 is not so easy to see under the floorboard!:laugh: :idea2:I don't guess, you would want to put the Dynaflow in the Lesabre? I love to drive a Dynaflow car!!! :grin:But, I bet it will be fun for you to drive the 401 with 3 on the tree!! I was 14 years old the first time my Dad and I restored our 55, 35 years ago! I'm 49 now and Dad is 81. We didn't have to replace any floor panels, but we took the floor all the way down to bare metal and came back with primer, paint, undercoating, jute mat and carpet. We also pulled the engine. In the same type "professional" shop you have, the driveway in front of the house!! What fun for you and your son. Keep up the good work.

weim55

07-08-2010, 01:25 PM

Bham,

Thanks for the words. I'd have to admit the Dynaflow worked really well in the parts car. Good power and takeoff even with no "gears" . The three speed has become a bit of a can of worms as I'll describe later. I'll stick with it though. The Nailhead is next on the list......

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

07-11-2010, 11:12 PM

Nailhead.

Like the most of the stuff from the parts car the engine has turned out to be a winner too. I ran about a half of tank of fuel and drove the old Invicta around 50 - 75 miles or so to make sure the 401 was worthy before I pulled it for LeSabre duty. It ran great. No leaks, no smoke. Super quiet and smooth. No lifter noise. One of only things wrong was the outer ring of the balancer had twisted in the rubber so the timing mark ws about 70 degrees off.

The plan: Pull it apart enough to inspect and reseal. Once apart the news stayed good. Clean inside, no surprises. Timing chain worn, fair amount of sludge in the pan. I replaced the timing set. At 50 years and lots of that spent sitting around the oil pan developed alot of sludge and the pump pickup was sticky and 1/2 clogged with the stuff. It's a good thing I took it apart and cleaned this out. It's the one thing I found that could have done in the engine later had I left it as is. Cam looks good. Pulled a rod and main cap. Bearings are original and look great. Super nice timing cover. Perfect exhaust manifolds. All the bolt ons will clean up nicely.

I got a replacement balancer from Del DEADMANSCURVE here on the board. In the pic you can see how the original twisted compared to replacement. The timing mark should line up close to the same as the crank keyway.

I plan to run a temp gauge but I also want keep the original COLD HOT dash light sender. Had to remove the other water jacket plug in the right head for the new sender for the gauge. Had to use heat to get that out. Man that thing was stubborn!

I didn't get the engine back in this weekend but if I have Friday off from work I hope to get it together in the car on that day. Be chippin' away on it all this week.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

07-12-2010, 10:35 PM

Nailhead continued...............

My son Kenny and I spent a good part of the weekend just cleaning engine stuff. Refinishing, refreshing. Kenny handled the scrubbing of the big engine parts and painting some of the bolt ons. That's him at the 401 table in the pic. I did all the little stuff and started assembly. You'll see my shade tree parts washing system in the pic. The first can is 1/2 full of solvent. Dump in the bolts, heat in the sun, shake n' bake...then into scrub station. After that evaporate dry in the sun then into "wash' container on the right. Fill with boiling water, add some dish soap, shake n' bake some more. Presto! Nice clean engine parts! Cheesy but effective.....

I''m adding a PCV system to lose the stench coming out of the breathers under the hood and to keep the engine compartment cleaner over time. Del DEADMANSCURVE set me up with a right side 425 valve cover that has the PCV hole factory. The later nailheads use a smaller hole for the hold down bolts. Wanted to match the holes on the '60 cover so I can use the same bolts and grommets on both sides. I drilled the holes out slightly, then backed the hole with a piece of pipe, grabbed a tapered punch, hammer, and tried to "roll" the edge to duplicate the '60 cover. Close but not quite...... It'll do though.

The timing cover had the usual Buick problems. Two broken off bolts from the water pump and missing clogged up dowel holes. A little heat to break 'em loose, they screwed right out. Chased all the threads and added a TA 360 Rubber balancer seal to replace the old rope seal. Water pump is the 3 blade non AC unit. The radiator hose neck is corroded pretty bad. I'll epoxy up the pitts and run it. New timing set from TA too.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Tim N.

07-13-2010, 12:27 AM

Looks like your trundling right along. Keep up the good work.

weim55

07-20-2010, 10:32 PM

Exhaust

The 401 has some of the most perfect exhaust manifolds I've ever seen. All the studs, bolts and washers are original and nice. Not all that uncommon here in Colorado. The only problem I had to correct was one of the heat riser bushings was worn creating a small exhaust leak. While I could have replaced the bushing I felt there was no point in keeping the heat riser. I just tapped the holes and plugged 'em with bolts. Same story with the exhaust heat holes in the intake manifold. Exhaust heat is never ever good around carburetors. My opinion... I cut out some quick sheet metal plugs for gasket openings and bolted her down. I had the manifolds blasted and then painted 'em with POR High temp cast color. Used a foam brush, 2 coats. I'm happy with the finish. I'll let you know how this stuff holds up. Bolted 'em on with no gaskets as original.

I used the 401 Y pipe and headpipe mated to the original LeSabre muffer and tailpipe. While all this stuff are the original 50 year old items they're solid enough to get by. I really want to upgrade this exhaust but the $$ and time factor warrant using this old stuff for the time being. For flow it's terrible terrible....... Small pipe (tailpipe isn't even 2"..) with horrible kinks, bends and flat spots. Duals would be nice upgrade but to do it properly the left manifold is different for factory duals (I don't have one....) plus the 3 speed shift and clutch linkage leave zero room for the pipe down the left side. Not sure what I'll do for the future just yet.

weim55

07-20-2010, 11:00 PM

Engine Paint

Ordered 2 cans of Buick Green from TA. They razor off the color color ID from can. Turns out it's some type of Ford Green. No problem though. I think the color match is close enough. You can see the original color on the intake manifold next to the fresh sprayed green. Works for me. The original color on both engines, 364 and 401, look to be the same. As a side note I found out both cars are Kansas City assembled, 1069 units apart. Interesting.......

A couple of original engine cars that I've seen from other plants seem to have a metallic type of green instead of the solid green my engines have. True? The bellhousing, power steering and generator brackets are also painted engine color from the factory. The bellhousing mount throttle stop and generator adjustment bracket are not. (no paint... cad plate??)

GoldBoattail455

07-21-2010, 09:02 AM

Steve,
I don't know how I missed this thread! Great work! You've made a TON of progress. Cleaning, painting and detailing original parts can be some of the most rewarding work you do to your car. Keep up the great work! The hotsy really made a big difference. That is one investment I would like to have, the do-it-yourself car wash stalls just don't have the heat or pressure to really clean. Colorado cars are super solid.

bhambulldog

07-26-2010, 07:24 PM

Man you're really coming along! Great Work! :TU: It seems that, no one really has the exact nailhead green without mixing:(. IMHO, cars has the closest match. Here, is a link to a thread on engine paint:Smarty:;

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=207375

bhambulldog

07-26-2010, 07:26 PM

Oh, it turns out that is YOUR thread:Dou:!! :error: The first time we restored our 55, I think we used ford green.

bhambulldog

07-28-2010, 06:14 PM

I've purchased my first full size early (early to me anyway) Buick.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Ha! I just got that. To me 1960 is a late model!!

d2_willys

07-28-2010, 09:46 PM

R U planning on parting out the 364? If so would you want to sell the oil filter adapter block?

BuickBorracho

08-04-2010, 04:39 PM

great work so far steve. Check your PM box when you get a chance.

weim55

08-08-2010, 10:49 PM

It Runs!

I'm a bit behind posting progress here.....Over the past two weeks Kenny and I put the final touches to install the 401 and fire it up in it's new home. I installed minus the clutch assembly so I could have access to the flywheel to balance the 364 flywheel properly to the 401. The transmission and rearend will be done as soon as the engine is balanced. I'll post on the steps I've left out soon. Much left to do but it's really great to hear the ol' nailhead purring again!

weim55

08-10-2010, 09:44 PM

Balancing the 364 Flywheel to the 401.

364 and 401 flywheels are balanced differently making them unique to each to engine. Long story short finding a stepped 401 flywheel like the one in my '60 is impossible. A new flywheel is available from a couple of sources but it's pricey ($325.00), it's flat face, not stepped like the original. That means I would also have to purchase a new clutch. AND.... the ring gear depth is different so the correct starter is neccessary too. Earlier in the thread Tom Telesco gave me some advice where to start on the balance process to make my 364 flywheel work for the swap. I started the process by drilling and tapping a hole directly across from the dowel hole in the crank to hang balance weights off of. It's the hole with the white circle in the pics. Also there just happened to be a hole a couple of inches clockwise from the hole I drilled so I ran a tap through that hole too in case I might need it. Hooked up a tach that I could see through the windsheild and ran the engine with various weights and placements until I zeroed in to the spot and weights you see in the pic. Engine runs really smooth but at the very highest RPMs (3600 - 4000) I can still feel a slight vibration in the dash. Outside the car throttling by hand it's as smooth as a watch. I might be splitting hairs thinking it should be better. I think I'll get the car drivable and see what it's like under a load on the highway then decide if it needs a little more attention.

Thanks for the advice Tom, this worked well and saved me some $$.

bhambulldog

08-10-2010, 11:07 PM

That looks great. Seeing your son working the hoist really brings back memories of when my Dad could get out and work on the car for hours on end. I do all the work now and he supervises from the porch. And, I am thankful for that. We went to a local cruise in Saturday Aug 7. And my Dad and had a blast. Keep up the good work.

APVGS

08-11-2010, 03:17 PM

Good read!!..All the best!! :TU: Later,Tony.

telriv

08-11-2010, 05:08 PM

You need to add approx. an ounce in the same place where the 364 weight is. A 364 has an out of balance of approx. 3 1/2ozs. Whereas the 401/425 have an out of balance of approx. 4 1/2ozs. Your adding it to the wrong side. In other words 180* off from where it should be.

Tom T.

dwx4

08-11-2010, 09:26 PM

wow, looks like a lot of work but it looks good.:beer

I have a 60 4 door lesabre I am looking for parts for.
What are you doing with the left over parts from the invicta?:grin:

weim55

08-12-2010, 11:31 PM

Tom,

I'm lost as to the place on the flywheel where you say the factory added weight is. There is no added weight anywhere on it. Only weight removed as you can see in the pic. I'll give your placement a try but really..... only one ounce to add in that area? The balance is off alot before I made the changes I did. The vibration is bad and very noticeable. So I'm puzzled why the engine did come into balance with the weight placement in the area in the after pic.

Thoughts?

Thanks Steve

weim55

08-13-2010, 08:59 AM

dwx4,

I am parting out the Invicta. PM me your needs.

Thanks, Steve

bhambulldog

08-15-2010, 05:33 PM

Exhaust

The 401 has some of the most perfect exhaust manifolds I've ever seen. All the studs, bolts and washers are original and nice.
I'll say. As we say in Alabama; They look store bought new.

bhambulldog

08-15-2010, 11:32 PM

dwx4

08-17-2010, 09:58 PM

dwx4,

I am parting out the Invicta. PM me your needs.

Thanks, Steve

Thanks, PM sent!:beers2:

Tim N.

09-16-2010, 08:27 PM

Any progress updates?

weim55

10-05-2010, 09:11 PM

I've just been buried with other stuff in life these days so no time to post here lately. Part of that "stuff" has been bustin' butt on the '60. It's gotta motor itself out of the garage and into the storage barn before the snow flys here. Latest progress...........

A quick pic of the original 401 flexplate to show where the added weight is. you can see the "extra" metal in the area I shaded with a marker.

weim55

10-05-2010, 09:36 PM

Radiator.

I really wanted to use the original that came with the car. It's very clean and in really good condition. Plus it's the correct 3 speed unit with no trans cooler. Much nicer than the one in the parts car. A couple of small problems though. The bottom mount was mashed into something mangling the bracket and bending the upper mounting ears. Amazingly the hit didn't hurt the tanks or the core. A little torch, vise and hammer work straightened these out OK. Second problem was a small crack in the upper tank. I took it to my radiator guy and he did a quick 2 minute solder job on the crack and sent me on my way with a warning......... Having not tested this with pressure cross your fingers when you run it in the car.............

It worked great when I fired and ran the 401 in the LeSabre for the first time. After I shut the engine down, about five minutes later I heard a little hissing sound. Damn..........the crack spread just enough under pressure to leak. OK....... now we gotta do it the right way. Back to the shop. This time the radiator was dunked and stripped cleaned. The little crack turned out to be a badly spidered area about the size of a quarter. The right fix would be a new tank. $$$$. For now Matt did the ugly but effective fix over the area. He also discovered a leak under the right upper bracket and fixed that too. Sixty bucks later..... it ain't pretty but we have good working unit.

weim55

10-05-2010, 10:00 PM

PCV System.

Back in '60 the blowby gases were just vented with a metal draft tube from the valley pan to the ground. Both oil caps in the valve covers are also open vented.

When I drove the parts car around I could smell the blowby stench inside the car. Yeck...... Plus the underhood area in the LeSabre was totally slimed in oil from the valve cover oil caps venting a worn out 364.

Not good.

I deemed a PCV system mandatory on this driver. The problem is the original Carter AFB carburetor has no provision for a vacuum source for the PCV valve. I have some other Buick AFBs with the vacuum source but none of them have the engine starter switch mounted on the base. 1960 is the last year for the "tap start" throttle pedal starting system (lucky me......) so I have to run the original setup. I decided to add a 1/2" spacer under the carb and drill it for the vacuum source. Summit Racing has a spacer for a Holley carb that I modified to fit the mounting hole spacing of the AFB. I just scribed it out on the spacer using the original AFB gasket. Clamp the spacer to the drill press with another alumium unit for a bit guide and drill away....... A quick hole drilled in the back of the spacer for a vacuum port and I pressed in a chunk of 3/8" metal fuel line for vacuum line to mate to. Everything fits and clears well on the engine. The air filter housing just barely clears the hood with the extra height.

Next I gotta make a tube from the valley cover to the air cleaner....

Hector

10-05-2010, 10:43 PM

Looking good!

lrlforfun

10-06-2010, 12:43 AM

OK Steve; I would strongly suggest a soft parts overhaul for the 401. If it had blow by in the Invicta sedan what makes you think you won't have it in your Lesabre?

You can probably get a master kit for about $500. and with the machine work, cleaning up the heads and a hone you'd be in it with your labor under a G. You can also detail it to the 9's while it's apart and that isn't but a couple of rattle cans of Buick green or Ford diesel green to really make it look nice. After all, you have gone to quite a bit of trouble getting the project to where it is now.

You're 1st and goal, why not? Mitch

PS: I'm sorry if I was spending your money because it's easy to spend other people's money!

telriv

10-06-2010, 06:18 AM

I see your used to working on SBC's. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a China master kit for a "Nail" for $500.00

NFP

10-06-2010, 07:25 AM

Looks like she is coming a long way, good luck with getting her moving this year yet. :TU:

BuickBorracho

10-06-2010, 10:57 AM

good progress so far, steve.

Are you going to junk the road draft tube from the nailhead? If so, I'll take it! Im in need of a draft tube for mine. PM or email me.

weim55

10-07-2010, 02:37 PM

The second step to the blowby gas into the car situation will be to thoughly seal up the firewall so there are no holes whatsoever. The parts car had a comepletely missing throttle boot on the firewall plus the heater box was left unsealed from a previous repair. That's the main reason for the stench in the car. There will always be some blow by on an engine with some miles under it. The 401 checked very healthy with great compression and very little visible blow by. I would have loved to rebuild the 364 but it's just too pricey for the budget and the overall value of the car doesn't justify it.

Also, you'll notice I'm not spending alot of time on visual details and restoration. This car will be a driver that will see miles and it will get dirty. The proper function of all the mechanicals is what's really important to me. Just doing the best I can to bring this old girl back to the road on a really tight budget.

Steve weim55 Colorado

RJBT

10-07-2010, 06:21 PM

Steve.. great work you are doing !
I am going through the same steps with my '60 electra. I actually have a strong smell in the car when the roof is down. Blow by, unburnt exhaust, I am not sure but my gfriend will actually almost get a headache and our clothes will smell.
I will go through the engine once winter hits....
Question: Are you eliminating the road draft tube ? If so why ? Aren't those fumes just getting sucked out under the car ? I have smoke coming off the valve cover breathers. I assumed the smell was coming from there (through all the missing rubber grommets in the firewall).

Roland

weim55

10-07-2010, 11:42 PM

Roland,

I'll be eliminating the road draft tube. I'll use the old road draft tube hole in the valley pan and make a new pipe that will go straight up into the air filter housing. Making a truly closed PCV system. Some trouble areas for fumes in the car: Missing or bad throttle boot. Steering column seal. Sealer around the heater box. Boot between the heater box and the fan housing. (hard to see this one well without using a mirror) I also wonder about the rubber seal between the hood and the top of the cowl. Could this be how fumes are getting inside the car with the top down? Over the windsheild? Or maybe past that same seal into the heater vent inlet at the base of the windsheild?

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-08-2010, 09:01 AM

Ignition.

The 401 has the typical GM points distributor from the era. Thought I would try one of the points replacement modules that are out there. Heard good things about the Pertronix units so I tryed to pick one up. I went to three sources and they were back ordered at all of 'em. My next choice was an Accel unit from Summit. I've had alot of Accel stuff over the years and have always been happy with the brand.

I gave the distributor a through a clean and lube before installing. The install couldn't be easier. Nothing has to be modified. Even uses the same reduced voltage power source as the point system. So no wiring mods. The onlr problem I ran into was the nuts that hold the firing wheel to the advance plate would hit top of the module. A quick hit to the nuts with the grinder and they clear just fine. Good thing I checked that. The module also has that wonderful Made in China sticker. (so much for made in USA Accel stuff anymore....) That said I'll definatly keep a points set, lead wire and a screwdriver in the trunk just in case. New high quality Accel cap and rotor. These look like the good solid quality peices I'm used to seeing from Accel. Made in USA.

For the ignition wires I decided just to use the ones that were on the 401. Packard wires that show a 1973 date. They're a nice replacement set that fit perfectly and have the correct boots. Rubber still healthy and pliable. All check good for resistance with an ohm meter. It might seem odd that I would use a 30 year old set of plug wires. Like many other things these days I'm very leary of new product quality. Old quality is good quality most of the time. So I will gladly put a little time into the old stuff to bring it back around rather than take the easy road to new. Saves $$ too. Here's a tip that I used on the plug wires that works well for anything rubber. Just use a waterless hand cleaner like Goop, slime up the rubber and rinse. Scrub a little with a light brush should it need. Looks like new when you're done.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-08-2010, 09:42 AM

Driveline.

1960 is the last year for the torque tube driveshaft and rear axle setup. It's also the last year for the slide rail 3 speed non synchro first stick transmission (lucky me once again......) I've read and heard bad stuff about these things too. Leaks, loose clunky couplings, pricey repairs, hard to find parts....... I'm determined to make it work with no leaks and smooth operation.

When I first purchased the car John Codman here on the boards helped me understand and ID much of the 3 speed and rear axle stuff. I had never set my eyes on animals the likes of these. He looked up the tranny and rear axle numbers and found the standard axle ratio to be a 3.91 and a first gear ratio of the transmission to be a 2.17. Once I had the driveline out of car I checked 'em both and this proved to be true.

??!!

What was Buick thinking on that one? Now I know why the 364 was so worn out. The original owner had commented to his son how great the car would run on the highway at 80 to 90 MPH. that little nailhead would be screaming close to 4000 RPM doing that. Not a highway cruiser. And what a shame..... Why didn't Buick use the standard Dynaflow LeSabre 3.07 axle with a first gear around 2.80 for the stick car? A much better economy setup.

If I still lived in the city I would probably leave the 3.91s in the car. Since I live in the sticks, I want this car to be highway cruiser. So that gear has gotta go. Since I have it and it's free I'll use the 3.23s from the Invicta parts car. I would rather have 3.07s from a Dynaflow LeSabre but I'm afraid to go that high with that lousy 2.17 first gear. I think I'd be smokin' the clutch just to get the thing rollin'. Even with the 3.23s, the math shows redline in first gear (4200rpm) to be 48 MPH! 2500 rpm is 30 MPH! That's a loooooong first gear!

So that's the plan, to run the 3.23s. Hopefully I won't regret the decision to make the change. The fun of the three speed stick is one of the main reasons I purchased the car in the first place. Need to keep it that way..........Lets dive in..............

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-08-2010, 03:33 PM

3 Speed Transmission

Compared to muscle era stuff I'm used to working on this is one strange gearbox. The first order was to check the overall condtion and address leaks. With the top cover off a peek inside showed normal wear. The main shaft comes out and apart easily. Bearings,syncros and gears all look good. I tossed it back together then on to the first problem area.

That would be the u-joint bolted to the end of the tailshaft that is enclosed in the torque tube "ball". U-joint is wet inside the "ball" lubricated by splash 90W oil inside the transmission. Looks like the transmission was run low on oil (I'll talk about the whys of that in a bit...) starving the u-joint, ruining it. The joint cross had alot of slop but it wasn't destroyed. Too worn to run it that way though. The output yoke shaft that rides inside a bushing in the torque ball is badly worn too. Too loose to hold a seal that rides on it keeping the transmission oil out of the torque tube. And last the yoke splines that slide on the output shaft of the transmission are rolled and loose too. Because the yokes are shot I can't just rebuild the joint cross. Add to that this is a 3-speed stick only asseembly. Good luck finding another one of those.......

Time to get crafty......... I pulled the Dynaflow joint to take a look and see if I could piece one together somehow. The two assemblies are close in design but not interchangable. The plus side is the Dynaflow assembly is in perfect condition. Wet fed just like the stick version but with ATF instead of 90W. The thing is if you run a Dynaflow low on fluid the car quits moving. So the the joint is more likely to survive over time. Less chance of abuse and "hit" from the stick transmission also.

In the end I decided I would try to modify the Dynaflow unit to work. The yoke that slides onto the transmission is the only difference. It's too long and the speedo gear is in the way. A quick check of the yoke on the output shaft showed a good fit, just too long. In the pics you'll see how I used a puller to move the speedo gear up the the measurement I needed the yoke to be to match the stick unit. Then using the gear as a flat guide I used my 4" cutoff disc grinder to whack off the the area that was too long. Pulled the speedo gear off, dressed the cutoff area and wala!...... One 3 speed stick u-joint assembly ready to rock! For free! I like that! Where the yoke bolts on the shaft I shimmed the bolt and washer for about a .002 to .003 play back and forth. The yoke is supposed float a little bit here.

What I thought was going to be a major roadblock in the project turned out to be an easy solution. Chalk another one up to just how valuable a parts car can be.

In the pics the stick joint is on the left, Dynaflow on the right.

Steve weim55 Colorado

LowFlyLark

10-08-2010, 05:22 PM

I love it when things start out bad and quickly turn around from old stuff that is right there waiting. Even better, its free with just a little elbow grease.
Thats going to be a fun driver.

DinoBob

10-18-2010, 11:05 PM

What a shock to discover this thread.

I also have a Fawn Pearl '60 LeSabre 2-door sedan with a 364 stick. I've had it for about a month.

Amazingly similar car. I would love to compare notes!

Bob

lrlforfun

10-18-2010, 11:36 PM

OK Dino: I was wondering when you two would get together. Mitch

DinoBob

10-19-2010, 12:10 AM

Well, it is clear that Weim55 has a much higher level of mechanical skill than I do. I am comfortable with working on the car, but this stuff is a level above.

I am very very curious about the trans and clutch in particular. I do not even know HOW to check the fluid level in this trans at this point! And I am seeing some dripping from the torque ball. So that makes me a bit nervous.

Weim55, if you have a chance, please get in touch with me. Thanks!

DinoBob

DinoBob

10-19-2010, 07:35 AM

Checking the fluid is done through the drain plug, I have figured out. But what's the procedure? Just open the drain plug and fill it until it's oozing out of the hole?

Doug Ray

10-19-2010, 07:39 AM

Your finger is the dipstick. Fill to the first knuckle on your finger, that is the full mark.

Doug

DinoBob

10-19-2010, 09:09 AM

Now I have not spent much time looking at the trans itself, as of yet. I have been mostly doing smaller things as I await some time for my dad to work with me (he's a gearhead from back in the day).

But from what I see, the drain plug is on the bottom of the transmission. If that's the case, how does one open the plug without losing all of the fluid?

I gotta get under there and get my face in that trans....:-/

weim55

10-20-2010, 04:09 PM

Hi Bob

Unbelieveable......... The exact same car?! Tell us a little about it. Does it run and drive? Post a couple of pics on this thread if you have a chance. Love to see it.

As for filling the transmission, if yours is the same that 3 speed will have two plugs. A drain plug at the very bottom and a fill plug on the passenger side of the case about 3 inches from the bottom. The plug might be covered by 50 year old grease so you might have to "dig" for it. Be sure and fill the trans all the way to the top of the fill plug hole. That fluid lubricates the u joint at the back in the torque ball too. If you drain the trans first and completely fill it it won't even hold two quarts. A little seapage at the torque ball is normal. Look under the car a day after you fill up the transmission. If there's a bunch under the car on the garage floor might need to investigate.

I'll be posting more soon. Good luck with that '60!

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

10-20-2010, 11:10 PM

Steve, with the exception of the fact that you have a white trunk lid and quarter tops, the car is identical from an exterior standpoint.

The interior is very close. I have the Safety package, which includes backup lights, a parking brake indicator lamp, a map light, and speedminder. I think that's absent on your car.

I also have full hubcaps. Not sure if they were added. My car is from KC as well and I would love to exchange VINs with you. I'd be glad to send pics.

The drip from the torque ball is not terrible, but it's a few ounces or so a week. It only seems to drip if I am parked on an incline, and unfortunately my driveway is an incline. :rolleyes: The car runs and drives pretty well. No smoke or noises, other than a noisy water pump. My carb needs a rebuild- accelerator pump is spotty - and I have some exhaust work to do. Brakes will get a complete going over as well.

You really have things in hand there. You must have a very well-stocked tool chest for all that heavy work you have done on 50-year-old suspension and driveline components. You also have some real skills.

I'll post up some pics of the car. You'll be very suprised at how similar it is.

Am I correct that you added power steering? I don't plan to but I was curious as to how easy a swap that was.

DinoBob

10-20-2010, 11:27 PM

Pics in next post.

DinoBob

10-21-2010, 12:30 AM

http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0888.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0889.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0890.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0891.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0892.JPG

http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0893JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0894.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0895.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0896.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0897.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0898.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0899.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0900.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0901.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0902.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0903.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0904.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0905.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0906.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0907.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0908.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0909.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0910.JPG
http://www.milltownday.org/images/Buick/IMG_0911.JPG

DinoBob

10-21-2010, 12:32 AM

She's been cleaned up a good bit since these pics were taken. I'll post more as I progress.

DinoBob

10-21-2010, 09:12 AM

There's a lot of good and bad with this car.

The Good:

The chrome is as good as it looks in the pictures. Have you ever seen a straighter '60 Buick rear bumper? The only piece of trim with any serious issues is the mirror, which is pitted. It's not a Buick mirror; it's an aftermarket Roberk.

The car runs just great. Top end is dead quiet. Heater core and radiator are clear and the coolant is a great color.

The glass is all original and certainly passable. The windshield has a couple of stone chips (one was a bit of a bullet crack which I repaired with a kit) and the wind wings have a little bit of edge separation, but nothing is cracked.

Fenders/rockers/floors/trunk floor are totally solid and rot free. Even the inner fenderwells and quarter panels are terrific.

Everything now works including the clock and the cigarette lighter.

The headliner has one repairable seam split where the threads dried out. I plan to carefully remove it, repair, and reinstall.

Did I mention it runs great?

The Bad:

The seats. 'Nuff said.

The exhaust has a few holes at the clamps from misture buildup. My dad and I will attempt to gas-weld a couple of patches in because the rest is good.

Water pump is LOUD. About to go.

That hole in the quarter panel. Ugh.

Some bondo and bubbling in the lower quarter extensions.

Of course, brakes, tires, shocks are shot. Does not sound like much but the budget is tight and that's $1000 all said and done.

The steering wheel is cracked to hell.

The door panels and quarter side panels are not great. Lot of sunburn. They are expensive pieces to replace.

Torque ball is leaking a bit.

Overall I feel very lucky. The car needs a million little things but I can get in it, fire it up, and drive it. I paid $2500 for it plus the shipping so I know that I spent my money wisely and Providence smiled upon me as it could have showed up with a rod knock or smoking like a chimney (I aksed questions but you know how it is buying a car from 1300 miles away). I knew I was chancing things a bit but it turned out very well so far.

I think if I put another $2000 in the car, maybe $2500, it will be at a cosmetic and mechanical level that I will be very happy with. I plan to do the bodywork and paint myself so that will help a lot.

weim55

10-23-2010, 08:34 PM

Bob,

Wow!.... What a cool find! From the pics it appears your car is good grade level better than mine in every way. Very worth the extra $$. What part of the country did it come from? That chrome shows some dry west coast garaged climate. True? Has it been repainted?

I was told if the wheels are painted body color and have the clips to hold the caps the car originally came through with poverty caps. I can see the color on your wheels. Maybe it had those before?

No broken radio buttons!

I'll be doing similar work to my headliner too. One split seam and one hole I intend to patch.

The change to power steering is very easy.... if you have a parts car with all the little stuff. You need the pump, brackets, hoses, water pump and crank pulleys and MAYBE the center link for the steering. The steering column is the same. Bolts right on, no fuss. I know of a couple parts cars that have the goods should you decide to go that route.

I'm jealous........ you're drivin' and I'm still wrenchin' ! I be driving mine soon though!

I don't have any good pics of mine as of yet. Here's a couple I shot the other day next to the GS. Can you believe the difference in ten short years between these models?

Steve weim55 Colorado

Steve

bhambulldog

10-23-2010, 11:04 PM

I like those 60 Buicks!! Fins front and rear!:TU::laugh:

DinoBob

10-23-2010, 11:07 PM

The car came from South Dakota. It was not garaged, hence the terrible seats/package tray and dead paint on the hood and trunk. But it apparently did not see salt at all.

I am going to stick with the manual steering. I know that power brakes are not really an option so I was just curious about the steering.

Your car's body looks very clean. Mine has some flaws. Overall I think we both have great cars.

The GS is awesome. I was once offered a 71 at a price I now hesitate to think about. $500. A guy down the street bought it from the original owner back in the '80s for the princely sum of $1500. It was a super clean original. He beat on it enough to ruin the engine and then stuck a 455 out of a station wagon in it. I had access to both engines. Breaks the heart to think of it now.

weim55

10-24-2010, 09:34 AM

Bob,

The body on my car is very clean too. The main reason I purchased the car in the first place. These '60s are so prone serious rust issues even Colorado cars usually have a fair amount. My parts car is typical of that. The quarters and rockers would have needed some serious work inside and out and that's even on a low mileage car. While my LeSabre was driven close to 100,000 miles in it's first 15 years, I'm thinking maybe a retired couple used it only in good weather. How else could it have ever survived those humid, snowy Missouri winter roads rust free? Similar story for your car too I bet. The body on mine does have a few issues too but they are pretty minor for a 50 year old used car. I'll address a couple of those in the coming spring.

I saw the "salt and pepper" carpet in your pics? Is that original? None of the original carpet is left in mine so I wondered what the original color might have looked like.

Another thing I'm gonna try to do is replace just the door "boards" under the vinyl. My passenger door panel is REALLY bad. Very wavy. The vinyl looks OK. I'll hit that in the spring too.

V.I.N. # on mine is 4G4025813 with an original sale of 6-4-1960. Sale price on the title is $2,531.00.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-24-2010, 09:57 AM

More Transmission

When I took the tranny out it was a "ball" of 50 year old grease on the outside. It looked like it leaked out of every seal possible. I hate leaks. With a passion. In the pics you can see the exposed shaft ends in the main case front and rear. No o rings are used on these shafts. For the front a paper gasket was used originally between the bellhousing and the case to seal that end. That gasket was almost non existant when I took it apart. Going back together I ditched the gasket and used quality red RTV between the bellhousing and tranny. For the rear you'll see my crude but effective "seal" for the two exposed shafts there. The factory relies on the oil viscosity for a seal here..... but that's with no wear between the shaft and the bore, as new. Mine has a little play here and I don't trust it to seal. Red RTV for the case top cover and tailshaft housing. The input shaft uses a leather looking "o ring" to seal the shaft inside the input retainer that the throwout bearing rides on. It was in great shape and showed no signs of leakage so I ran it as is. I'll address the shifter shaft seals in a later post.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-24-2010, 10:35 AM

Pilot bearing

The 401 didn't have one since a Dynaflow was behind it before. The cranks are drilled different for sticks and automatics so the original 364 pilot will not work in a Dynaflow crank, 364 or 401. Bentensons sold me a great adaptor to make the swap possible. I dressed the pilot hole in the crank with 3M cloth, WD40 on the adaptor and went to drive the unit in the crank.

This is where things got ugly........

The adaptor went in smoothly about half of it's depth.....

And stopped.

Cold.

Long story short that sucker would NOT go in the rest of way. Period. Now I have an adaptor that's completely suck in the back of the crank and the only way to get it out is to cut it out. And I don't have another. Putting some thought into it I found I could knock the brass pilot in the adapter the proper depth and dress the inside hole of the adaptor to clear the input shaft. A total hack job. But it does pass my judgement of permanent repair. It's ugly, but everything clears, the input is propery supported and no chance of anything coming apart later.

I won't blame the problem on Bentensons adaptor. I made a couple of big mistakes on this deal. First, I didn't measure the pilot hole and adaptor to check the proper press fit. Second, to put pilot adaptor in the freezer before I went to drive it in the crank. Believe it. That really works. That aluminum will shrink a thousanth or two allowing the pilot to drive right in and expand in place once the temperature rises back to room level. Was there a "step" in the pilot hole I missed? You never know what the production variances and differences will be with all this stuff and the aftermarket can't know 'em all either. The bottom line is I was in a hurry, rushed to try get the transmission back in the car by the end of the night...... and it bit me.

Old cars...... we know better don't we??.......

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-24-2010, 11:04 AM

Clutch and Throwout Bearing

The last thing for me to do before I could stab the transmission back into the car was to install the old clutch to the flywheel. If you look at the pics in the previous post you can see how the clutch disc springs were contacting the flywheel bolts when car was last running all those years ago. Obviously the clutch was replaced at some point and either the flywheel bolts were replaced with the incorrect ones (bolt head too deep) or the disc is slightly different. To correct that problem I removed the washers (did somebody put those in there when they installed the clutch all those years ago?) from under the flywheel bolts and torqued them to spec. with red locktight. Now the disc clears the bolts properly.

The throwout bearing wouldn't turn smoothy so I simply drilled a small hole in the case, used a needle tip in my grease gun and filled the bearing with fresh grease. RTV the hole closed and she's ready to run. Spins smooth as glass.

Clutch fork and pivot were both in great shape. Clean, grease and go.

Finally with everything bolted in place, flywheel and clutch, I installed the transmission. It's a VERY tight fit to get it in the car. The crossmember that is behind the transmission (not the support crossmember) is not removeable and the case barly clears as you carefully aline the input shaft into the clutch. Many tries to get this just right.

Ahhhhhh..... the transmission is in! Next, on to the driveline and rear axle.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Turbo455

10-24-2010, 12:02 PM

I would love to get my hands on either a 59 or 60 put some big meats and a 455 and make a street/strip car. All the ones I find are $7000+. Nice rides:TU:

DinoBob

10-24-2010, 10:25 PM

Once again I bow to Steve's expertise and creativity. This is work that is just a notch above my level of comfort and experience.

I checked the fluid level in my trans today and it would seem that my trans was run very low on fluid as well. I put the better part of a quart of fluid in the trans, and as far as I could tell, did not reach the filler hole, which was a real surprise to me as the listed capacity is 2 pints. I could not really get the whole squeeze bottle of gear oil dispensed into the hole, so probably I am close to full. There was a panicky moment with my pinky finger stuck in the fill hole- no kidding. :-( . Don't do that.

I have also discovered that there is a lot of caked gook directly under the steering box. I opened up the steering box and she is seemingly dry as a bone as well. :-( So I emptied the rest of the gear oil in there and will pick up another quart this week. I'll fill both trans and steering box, clean up all of the gook, and see where we are. I do not relish the thought of pulling the trans as Steve has done. As I say it's a little above my level of experience. The steering box seems like an easy rebuild as long as I can get a kit. So far I have not seen any kits for manual boxes.

Steve, to answer your question regarding the carpet, it's not straight carpet but a "hybrid" of mostly rubber floor with carpet centers front and rear. The salt-and pepper carpet, actually called Tuxedo, has always been a fave of mine. That is reproduced, but I have been told that it may go away as most casual restorers eschew it because it costs more (sheesh).

Obviously the hybrid flooring, or any rubber flooring, is just not available. I called some places that make rubber floor for cabs/cops/trucks, and they said that they do not have vacuum molds made for most cars, only those typically used in these industries. This is a real downer as I love this unique feature and would love to keep it. I have been trying to figure out a way to keep my carpet centers, which are somewhat faded (I only know this from the darker areas that are under the seats) but serviceable.

You have great hands and great troubleshooting skills. I don't know HOW you come up with some of your solutions for the auto-to-manual incompatibilies.

Please keep posting. I only hope to be able to offer something which might be helpful to YOU.

Also, if you and I could PM, I need a couple of things which your parts car might be able to offer.

Bob

P.S. I have no papers at all and may not have any way to ever trace ownership, because my previous owner did not even remember the name of the guy who sold him the car. But my VIN is 4G4024191.

weim55

10-24-2010, 11:25 PM

Driveline and Rear Axle

Since I elected to go with the 3.23s I decided just to pull the entire driveline and rear from the parts car, go through it, then switch the assemblies when ready. When I drove the parts car there was a pretty bad "klunk" when shifting from drive to reverse so the first order was to track that down.

The "Mystery Tube"....

Here's what's in the torque tube, if you look at the pics it's pretty simple. A pair of u joints on each end just like a normal shaft. The difference is the front u joint is encased in the torque ball oiled by the transmission, the rear doesn't attach directly to the pinion yoke at the differental. Instead there is a short sub shaft that slides on the pinion at one end and is supported by a carrier bearing on the other. U joint and yoke in between the two. Look at the pics and you can get a look at what's in there. No special tools needed to take any of this apart. A couple of hours and rear is out of the car with the driveline apart for inspection.

The "klunk" wound up being a bad rear u joint. Super easy fix. This is just a standard u joint available from any NAPA right off the shelf. Simple changeout like any typical u joint. I also replaced the only two seals to keep fluids out of the torque tube. The pinion seal at the rear and the torque tube to driveshaft seal at the front. I used the the torque ball seal - unit from the Dynaflow (exactly the same) as it was in great shape and still "tight" in the "ball". The carrier bearing just required grease like the throwout bearing. I just did the same procedure. That took care of the driveline.

The rear axle I took a little risk with. I decided not to pull the diff or axles. Both axle hub ends were bone dry showing good seals, the bearings quiet and tight, axles tight in the diff and side gears, ring and pinion backlash perfect. The housing has no drain plug so to drain the oil I removed the pinion nut and seal and twisted the pinion to face down into a drain pan on jack stands for a couple of days. Replaced the pinion seal with a new one, (special order NAPA) torque and locktight the pinion nut, fresh 90W and she's ready to go back in the car.

I bolted the front u joint to the transmission output shaft, assembled the torque ball then installed the axle and driveline as an assembly. The only tricky thing here is the driveshaft splines are "clocked" so the u joints are in phase. It's very hard to see the splines as they go into the yoke at the front. It takes a couple of tries at alinement to get these together. Not too bad though...... Also.. the entire driveline and axle as it comes out of the car are exactly the same Dynaflow or stick shift.

Steve weim55 Colorado

telriv

10-25-2010, 05:02 AM

Don't forget to check the speedo drive gears & swap/adapt as nec.

DinoBob

10-25-2010, 08:43 AM

Well, after filling the transmission yesterday, I checked my drip tray today and there is definitely a good bit more gear oil in it than what I dripped while filling yesterday. I would say we have a pretty decent-sized leak at the torque ball. Can I assume this means that fluid is making its way into the tube?

As much as this work is a little over my head, I'm really faced with no choice- I will have to face the fact that I am going to have to remove the torque tube and differential assembly and have at this. My biggest fears are that the universal and torque ball are ruined. Neither one is at all a piece of cake to get, and if I need the universal I will probably have to duplicate Steve's procedure of getting one from a Dynaflow and making the appropriate modifications. A quick call to Fatsco gave me at least some hope that there is a source for a torque ball should mine be ruined. Lloyd said "We probably got something around here somewhere..."

I did find a link on Kanter's site where universals are listed for the 1960 Buick, and a picture of what would appear to be the proper on is depicted. So maybe all hope is not lost for finding one without disassembling a parts car.

http://www.kanter.com///productdetail.aspx?Tg=6495927&Mak=Buick&Yr=60&Dv=1&Dpt=1700&Sb=0&Vdr=&Itm=&MDv=1&MDpt=0&MSb=0&Cat=77&Prc=335

Old cars....well, we knew what we were getting into, right?

This would all be easier if I had a garage. :-( .

DinoBob

10-25-2010, 09:07 AM

The answer to my own question is that I should not assume that fluid is making its way into the tube, but as Steve did, prudence would suggest that I remove the entire assembly, look at the torque ball and universal, and if all is well, replace the torque ball seal set, the torque tube to driveshaft seal, and the pinion seal.

Uh boy. Winter is coming and with no garage, I anticipate that I will not be doing this work until spring. Well, that's life. For the winter I will probably try to just keep enough fluid in the trans for an occasional around-the block drive to keep everything moving. I really fear letting the car sit outdoors without being driven at least some short distance for an extended period of time. I am glad that my jaunts were all very short, low speed trips to the auto parts store or my dad's house for working on the car. I hope I did not wreck anything in that trans by driving the car.

Steve, must say that I am grateful to have found this thread and grateful for your work. It's been very educational and I think it will serve me very well going forward.

66electrafied

10-26-2010, 12:28 AM

The torque ball and its sealing issues are fairly well known, and it wasn't one of GM's better ideas. Yeah, chances are that oil is getting down the torque tube. My 60 Invicta used to do the same thing, so did a 49 Chevy that I once had. My 46 Super does the same thing. I've learned to live with it for the time being. Every spring it's the same routine; - dump the axle, refill the transmission. One advantage though, your u-joints are being well lubricated. The 60 Invicta is long gone, but I still have the 46 Super, and I'll probably get that torque ball set up fixed when I finally do the powertrain. Right now the car still runs and drives, it's completely original and has never been pulled apart, so I want to preserve it in this condition for as long as possible before I have to do something.

My suggestion for what it's worth is unless it's seriously leaking a lot to the ground, I'd just let it ride, and monitor fluids for a while to figure out how much it loses. If it isn't too bad, fix it when you tear the whole works out to rebuild it.

DinoBob

10-26-2010, 08:52 AM

I am going to pick up some more gear oil to top off that trans, and also fill the steering gear. Then I am going to clean out my drip tray completely, watch, and see where I am at. My feeling though is that the torque ball will be leaking more than I am comfortable with and that I will wind up opening things up.

Complicating matters is also the concept of what Steve found in his trans- I have some fears about the universal joint and the torque ball themselves. We shall see. I hope that things look OK when I do open it up.

Caballero3

10-26-2010, 12:57 PM

66electrafied

10-26-2010, 08:35 PM

Just a suggestion, when you do your torque ball, first read the 1957 Chilton's Motors manual (I am sure that the 1960 is the same) on the subject. When followed and using a good torque ball, leakage is minimal until you mistakenly jack the car and let the rear end hang loose from the springs and shocks.

Dan
'57-76C
'57-56R

Is that why they screw up and leak?! Wow, learned something new today...And I can't count how many times the old '46 has been on a hoist with the axle hanging low...great...

weim55

10-29-2010, 07:32 PM

Jus' thought I'd toss in a few ideas about the torque ball thing. If it was me here's what I would do........ Drill a small hole (1/4") at the lowest point of the torque tube (bottom) closest to the rear axle. Fill the transmission and rear axle fluid to the proper level and drive the car a bit. Let the car the sit overnight and see if oil is leaking out of the hole you made. If it is, either the pinion seal or the torque tube seal at the front is leaking. If no fluid leaks out of the hole you made those seals are good and it's only the torque ball leaking. Check to make sure all 6 bolts on the torque ball are tight. Mine were loose. The pinion and torque tube seals on mine were original and didn't leak at all.

While I can't vouch for other years, on my '60 with the springs and shocks bolted in place, there is plenty of travel in the torque ball and seals to let the rear axle hang. The next time I have a chance to look under the car I'll see if there's enough room to pull the torque ball with the trans in place and moving the axle enough rearward to R and R just the torque ball.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

10-29-2010, 07:58 PM

Bob,

Looking at your pics again I noticed the floor mats in the rear. Those are actually the originals to the car? Sewed together with the carpet in the center?

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

10-29-2010, 08:23 PM

Steve, I am pretty sure that fluid is getting into that tube, as the joint in between the two pieces of the tube is dark and caked with some gook as well. As far as all that goes we'll wait for warm weather to return. For now I'll just watch my levels and drive her sparingly.

Yes, that rubber is the floor covering. Look at the sill, you can see that it is also rubber. I really wish that was available. Some ideas for a close facsimile are percolating.

Right now the upper dash is off and cluster is out for cleaning, painting, and replacement of the grey edge rubber that slips on the lip between the dash and the unit. I'll post pics when it's done.

weim55

11-03-2010, 11:55 PM

Clutch Linkage

This was one of the things that showed signs of sitting for 35 years. When I got the car the clutch linkage was almost completely seized up. Completely dry and surface rusted from sitting so long. I got lucky and most of the setup was still in serviceable condition.

The firewall pivot that I talked about in master cylinder post needed work from excessive wear in the main pivot pin. A machinist I use for the shop helped me out with this. For sixty bucks he bored the main hole one size larger and machined a new pivot pin to match. Now the pivot moves straight and true with no slop. Plenty of clearance with the new dual master cylinder.

Next came the cross shaft. This goes between the frame and a mount that bolts to the bellhousing. A pivot ball supports this shaft on each side. The frame side has a great greaseable metal mate to the pivot ball. Just clean, regrease and go. The bellhousing side used a rubber bushing that slides over a shaft on this mount. The rubber bushing fell on the bench in a hundred pieces when I took it apart. Using a couple of poly sway bar bushings, I drilled the center to match the shaft. Using my bench grinder I ground the outside diameter to fit inside the cross shaft. Fits well.

The rest of the rods and pins just needed to be cleaned and greased. Same for the clutch pedal swing. The only other mod was to find a new place to anchor the return spring. The new master cylinder gets in the way of the spring using the old return anchor on the steering column. I spun a drilled wing nut on one of the fender apron bolts and attached the spring. Quick and easy.

I the pics you'll see a massive spring that attaches to the cross shaft at the frame and acts as an overcenter spring to help reduce the foot pressure required to release that heavy three finger clutch. With everything assembled and adjusted the clutch pedal works smoothly. Amazingly light pressure for a three finger pressure plate.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Hector

11-04-2010, 12:26 AM

Looking good!

telriv

11-04-2010, 03:27 AM

My hats off to you Steve. ONE HELLAVA JOB!!!!!!!!

bhambulldog

11-04-2010, 05:21 PM

DinoBob

11-05-2010, 08:42 AM

Steve = my hero. Being that the 3-speed '60 Buick is so rare, it's a true find when someone is willing to go through the detail that he has in posting the various teardown, repair, and rebuild processes.

Steve, I will try to reciprocate. So far the things I have done are pretty simple in comparison.

bhambulldog

11-06-2010, 01:37 AM

My hats off to you Steve. ONE HELLAVA JOB!!!!!!!!

Steve = my hero. Being that the 3-speed '60 Buick is so rare, it's a true find when someone is willing to go through the detail that he has in posting the various teardown, repair, and rebuild processes.

.
I like this thread for that. It's cool to see the work of a Craftsman.

DinoBob

11-06-2010, 09:14 PM

Well, I took "Sandy" out for a bit of a drive tonight, running a few errands, no more than a few miles from home.

The car drives really pretty well. Clearly the shocks are tired. The steering is great - feels tight and responsive (as 4500 lb. behemoths go). The manual steering is really not a big deal- you just have to get the car moving the slightest bit and use your hands on that wheel wisely and you're OK. I often forget that the brakes are not power - they are very good. Imagine how much better they will be when they are completely replaced.

But what I really wanted to know was- how much is this torque ball leaking? Well, when I returned home from my drive and parked in the driveway, I sat in the car for a few minutes before I got out. The 4-5 minutes I sat there were enough to leave a small pool about 2 inches in diameter, about 1/8 in deep. That's enough to tell me that we have more than a minor drip.

I will definitely be using the info here to assist me in doing the work.

weim55

11-06-2010, 11:48 PM

Shifter Rods

Nothing too tricky here. First order was to repair the worn area you see in the pics. Two of the "shafts" were worn pretty badly. Created alot of slop in the arm hole. I carefully welded up the shafts then hand filed them back to original diameter for a nice fit. (sorry, the after pics didn't turn out for some reason...) Next I simply installed them exactly as they came off, no adjustment or anything. A quick check of the shifter showed a good operation, no further adjustment needed. Reinstalled the "toggle spring" (that goofy spring you see hooked up to the main arm on the trans...) and that was it.

A couple of other notes about this........ The column shifter itself is still a little tight and hard to shift. The steering column still needs to be disassembled and properly lubed which I intend to do when the interior work begins in the spring. Instead of using cotter pins to attach the shifter rods to the arms I like to use the spring type clips that are used on Hurst shifters. They're inexpensive and hold the rods tight in the arm minimising slop at the shifter a little more. Plus they're easy to remove and reuseable. Sometimes it's possible to use the bushings that come with the clips in the kit too. They didn't fit on the '60 rods though. If you look at the side of the trans you can see the unusual arrangement of the shifter arms. The small arm controls the "slide", (reverse and 1st, or 2nd and 3rd) , the large arm is used for the operation of all gears. The small arm uses no seal in the case and the large arm does. I purchased a new seal for the shaft of the large arm but it turned out to be the wrong size. In reused the old one for now 'til I can get my hands on a correct replacement.

Thanks for the kind words. While I do have some years of experience working on old cars I wouldn't really call myself a "craftsman" (there are definatly some real deal craftsman here on these boards....) I'm more like a "crafty man" whos become pretty good at making things work when the wallet or the parts supply is dry. The main reason I posted this thread is I thought the information might be useful to someone as I went along. Save another some time or grief. And to meet and learn from some of you all who have done the same. Worked out good for me too.

Thanks, Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-08-2010, 09:41 AM

Steve, as I look at the cross-sectional view in the shop manual over and over again, I absorb a little bit each time about the operation of the torque ball setup.

It seems to me that there are only four points where the torque ball can leak:

The inner retainer O-ring

The outer retainer O-ring

The torque ball seal, which is sandwiched between the two

The universal joint's output yoke and its associated bushing

Further, it would seem to me that if gear oil is getting into the torque tube, the only one of these four from whence that leak could originate is the universal and its associated bushing; all of the other sealing points would leak only to the ground. The joint between the two sections of the torue tube seems damp with fresh oil, so I have every reason to believe that the tube is indeed taking on oil.

Does that seem like a sound hypothesis?

Forgive me for belaboring this. Some may ask, "Why does this guy just not rip it apart and see what's up?" Well, I will have a very limited time to have it apart once it's underway; I have no garage, a wife who frowns on cars with no rearend sitting in the drive, and a very busy schedule. So a full understanding of what's afoot along with an understanding of what parts I will need is critical to me.

Steve, were you able to determine whether the torque ball and universal are available if they need to be replaced? Or are they unobtainium?

Thanks for reading!

Bob

telriv

11-08-2010, 06:30 PM

All the parts you need are available from Bob's Automobilia & others. If you look at the end of the torque tube that enters the u-joint you will see a seal buried in there. This seal STOPS the fluid from entering the diff. Pay attention to how this seal is removed. Many install it backwards. Your trying to keep fluid OUT/FROM ENTERING the rear diff.

DinoBob

11-08-2010, 07:45 PM

Yes, I must have worded that poorly. I know that oil in the tube is a bad thing.

Thanks for the tip on the parts.

bhambulldog

11-08-2010, 10:09 PM

Thanks for the kind words. While I do have some years of experience working on old cars I wouldn't really call myself a "craftsman" (there are definatly some real deal craftsman here on these boards....) I'm more like a "crafty man" whos become pretty good at making things work when the wallet or the parts supply is dry. The main reason I posted this thread is I thought the information might be useful to someone as I went along. Save another some time or grief. And to meet and learn from some of you all who have done the same. Worked out good for me too.

Thanks, Steve weim55 Colorado
Well,
Your rebuild reminds me of the work, my Dad and I did to our Roadmaster on it's restoration in 1972-1975. Dad did'nt have a lot of money to spend on the car. But, there weren't many parts available to spend money on anyway. We just came up with ways to refurbish what we had. And, to make do with what used parts we could find, from salvage yards (the old fashioned way, pre-internet). "Crafty man" is a good description.
Keep up the good work:TU:

weim55

11-08-2010, 11:15 PM

Bob,

To determine the EXACT culprit of your leak could be tricky. You are correct with the makeup and order of the seals in the front torque ball area. It seems if the torque ball seal itself is the leak it could easily "trick" you into thinking the oil is getting out through the universal bushing, dripping out the parting line between the torque ball and the torque tube. They are only inches apart. Is the oil just dripping down the torque ball and onto that parting line while you are driving?

The front tube seal is just after that parting line to the rear direction of the car. If oil were to get past the universal bushing it could leak out at the parting line.

Here's a suggestion, Drive the car a bit to warm up the tranny fluid. Then put her up on jackstands, level, where you can under it. Clean the torque ball area throughly then run the car on jackstands in third gear on the first step of the fast idle cam. Watch closely to see EXACTLY where that fluid is getting out. I'd bet $$ it's the torque ball only. If the fluid IS coming out of the parting line, the universal bushing or the output yoke are worn, or both.

As far as universal joint availibility, Kanter rebuilds them but that doesn't help you if the yoke is shot. The yoke that rides in that bushing is the same as a Dynaflow so that would be an easy find. To keep it cheap I have a good feeling if you obtained the U joint assy. and torque ball from a Dynaflow chances are they would be in good condition. Then you could send the two assemblies to the rebuilder and have them mate the stick front yoke to the Dynaflow rear yoke. Or just mod the Dynaflow joint the same way I did.

Like Teleriv said, there are plenty of sources for torque ball assemblies new.

Just one more thought......... if you can determine your needs from above you could have all your parts ready to go and take the car to a shop with a lift and a tranny jack. A super easy job for a shop. 3 or 4 hours tops to replace the all the front seals and the universal if needed. They could easily modify a Dynaflow joint the same way I did if needed. (send it to me, I'll do it for you if you want...) Check with Gesslers or Chilenskis. Both of 'em are in New Jersey. Great knowledgeable Buick guys. If they can't do it I'm sure they could refer you to someone competent. Save alot of aggrevation. Worth the $$.

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-09-2010, 10:53 AM

Well, I am beginning to feel more confident about this work. I have spent essentially all of my free time the last few days reading about it and studying the FSM, and looking under the car. I'm really very confident about my ability to get the driveline out myself. The torque ball as well. I am a little shaky on getting the trans out if needed but that's more trepidation than lack of skill. You made it look like it's easily done.

When I said that I saw fresh dampness at the joint, I meant the rear joint near the rear universal and carrier bearing. I think that fluid may be making its way all the way down the tube and oozing out from there. The fresh addition of fluid to the trans and the driving went hand in hand with what I perceive to be fresh ooze from that location. I do not think that the pinion seal is leaking as well (I sure hope not).

I will be ordering a full torque ball seal kit and front seal for the tube. These I am sure I will replace. Then, when it is time to take it all apart, I will disassemble it and observe. If I need a universal, you made a great point about using the front yoke from the stick unit and the rear yoke from a Dynaflow unit, and having them mated during a rebuild of the joint.

Also, cutting down the input yoke is not something that worries me. That kind of improvisation is right up my alley as long as I understand things.

Also, if the yoke were grooved or slightly worn, could it be turned down on a lathe and fitted with an undersize bushing in the torque ball?

weim55

11-13-2010, 08:03 PM

More Brakes....

With the master cylinder and front brakes done it's on to the rear brakes, brake hydraulics and the parking brake.

Simple stuff on the rear brakes. They looked as though a complete job had been done on them (all from the Invicta parts car) with almost no mileage since. Brake hardware, shoes and drums are all fantastic. Just clean, lube and go. Wheel cylinders are the most perfect originals I've ever seen. If there was even the slightest pitting or rust inside I would have replaced 'em. Disassembled they are like new. Rubbers perfect. Maybe these are some NOS units? Just cleaned and reused. Assembled everything and adjusted per the factory service manual. Run the adjusters out 'til the drum can just be turned by hand then back off 15 "clicks". '60 Buicks were still using manual adjusters for all 4 drum brakes.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-13-2010, 08:48 PM

Brake Hydraulics

With the front brake hydraulic lines and master cylinder already done all that's left is the rear line from the master to the rear wheel cylinders. The hard lines were all in good condition. I just cleaned 'em up, blew them out with compressed air, sprayed brake cleaner through 'em a couple of times and blew them out again. A rubber flexible line from the axle tube to the frame was found new in the box in the trunk of the Invicta. (lucky me!) With everything installed again next was to bleed the system. I bled the master cylinder first then went on to the usual method I use for a dry system. Opening one wheel cylinder at a time I let the system gravity bleed 'til i have fluid at each wheel cylinder bleeder. This can take awhile sometimes. Not uncommon for it to take an hour or so for each wheel cylinder to get fluid to it using this slow method. For some reason this method flat would not work on the LeSabre. I checked everything I could. Master cylinder piston travel, Fluid through the outlet ports on the master, all lines tight, no restictions. I even let the car sit with the wheel bleeders open for DAYS. Still no fluid at the wheel cylinders. I've used this method for decades with no fail on dozens of vehicles. Why no go on this '60??

I decided to purchase a vacuum tester - bleeder to get the job done. Here's my plug for a great product that I can't believe I've done without the past 30 years......... I purchased this Mityvac MV 8500 kit off Mac Tools truck for just $70.00. It's a fantastic, very high quality complete kit. All metal vacuum gun with gauge. Many adapters and lines to fit almost any application. Clear line and cup so you can "see" the fluid as it starts to flow from the system while you bleed it. With my new shiney tool in hand I gave this another try.......

To use the vacuum bleeder is simple. With the hose attached from the gun to the bleeder valve at the wheel cylinder, you pump the gun 10 times or so to build vacuum. Then you open the bleeder and vacuum sucks fluid through the line with a "whoosh" . On my dry system it took a few cycles of this to get fluid at each wheel. How wonderful this worked! I did the whole system two times and "wala"........ We have brakes! And how nice to see clean fluid coming out of lines as I did this.

The only pain in the butt thing here is the bleeder valve for the front brakes is right behind the spindle. Impossible to get a flexible hose on the bleeder to do this procedure. I had to remove both of the wheel cylinder bolts and push the cylinder as far into the backing plate as I could to get a hose on the bleeder valve to bleed each front wheel. Very frustrating...........

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-13-2010, 09:23 PM

Parking Brake.

On both cars the parking brake was completly seized up. The pedal wouldn't budge an inch when I tried to push it down. I decided to try to repair and use the Invicta system as I figured most people wouldn't use the e brake on a Dynaflow car thus less wear on the system components. It's a fairly typical system that uses two cables. One from the pedal inside the car to the front of the driveshaft tube. A second one that forms a "U" shape from each rear brake to the front of the driveshaft tube to mate with the other cable. Opon disassembly I found both cables seized up in their housings and the idler wheel for the front cable seized up on it's shaft. To free up the cables, I carefully used a slide hammer attached to one side of the cable, then lightly hammered the cable until it began to move in the housing. As I inched along scores of fine dirt and dust poured out of the housing. Next I screwed my cordless drill to the end of the cable and spun it in the housing moving in and out as I went. Dirt and more dirt...... blowing out the housing with compressed air every few times. With everything clean the cables looked almost unused. Zero wear. A little grease on the cables and they work like new. Same deal for the cable idler. Carefully pound out the shaft, clean and grease. The pedal assembly looked like new and only took a little grease to operate smoothly. Whip it all back together and adjust.

Hot diggity...... we now have four working pedals under that dash!

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-13-2010, 10:23 PM

Shocks and Rear Springs.

For the rear I decided to use the air shocks off the parts car. Like so many other items from this car these look almost just out of the box new. Yea they're probably 30 some odd years old but they are still tight with great rebound. I also thought it would be nice to use 'em when I fill the trunk with stuff for a road trip ( yes there's gonna be one of those comin' up!) and not have the rear "tail draggin'". The plastic air lines were junk. NAPA had an exact replacement line and fitting kit for 10 bucks. The only other problem was the lower shock mounts on both cars were just bolts run through the rubber bushing with a really lousy loose fit. I had some shock mounts from an unknown source that fit the shocks perfectly. The stud side that went into the axle were a size bigger than original. This was perfect since the original holes were buggered up from the old loose shock bolts oblonging the holes. I just drilled out the axle housing holes to match the new studs. Installed the shocks and air lines. Done with the rear.

New front shocks are almost non existant for a '60 Buick. Kanter has 'em but they are pricey at $170 a pair. The front shocks sure did look alot like the ones on my '70 GS 455 so just for a try I bought a pair from NAPA to have a look. They are exactly the same in every way...... housing size, diameter and length. Rod travel, diameter and thread depth. The only difference is the bar that mounts the shock to the lower control arm on the '60 is wider. I thought about changing these out with my old ones but in the end I found there was just no way to cleanly swap out the bars without screwing up the bushings in the new NAPA shocks. I decided to just bite the bullet and pony up for Kanter shocks. I ordered them in the HD version with 5/8" shafts. As heavy as this old Buick is I thought this would be a wise improvement. They bolted right on, no fuss. A perfect fit like the other Kanter stuff purchased so far.

I used the rear springs from the Invicta as well. The original LeSabre springs were really sacked out and car sat very low in the rear compared to the front. Side by side the wire diameter is the same but the free height of the Invicta springs is a good 1 1/2" taller. With the car on the ground I can say I think the stance is perfect. I don't care for that on the ground look many people go for on these cars. A typical slightly higher in the rear rake is what I like. The true test will be on the road. The look and ride height can be fine and still drive lousy if the springs are shot. We'll soon see..............

The car is on the ground and rolling! Only one thing left to actually drive the car for the first time....

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-13-2010, 11:49 PM

Gas Tank.

The Invicta tank proved to be OK when I drove the car before I pulled the engine. I ran about a half tank of gas through it. No leaks, the fuel was clean in the see through filter and the gas guage worked.

Well kind of anyway.......

Driving the Invicta up the road to my house it ran out of fuel and the gauge still showed a 1/4 tank of fuel. I put 10 gallons in the tank some weeks before the day I purchased her and the gauge moved up to 3/4 tank showing it was at least working. When I took the tank out of the Invicta it was indeed bone dry from the last drive. The LeSabre gas gauge also showed a 1/4 tank of fuel before I pulled the tank. The LeSabre tank was also bone dry when took it out of car. The tank was pin holed under the tank straps from rust. That's why it was empty. I pulled the sending units from both tanks to test 'em. The service manual does not show what the specs should be for the proper resistance for certain tank levels. All I could really do was check them both and compare. The ohm readings were exactly the same for both senders.

Hmmmmmm...

When I connected the sending unit to the car the gauge in the car would only read full regardless of the sender float position. I'm quite sure I connected the terminal properly and grounded the sender body to the chassis. Finally I just installed the tank and hooked the sender up again. Still the same problem. In the end I just left as is. Gauge stuck on full . I'll just have to chase this problem down later. Ah but we do have a good clean non leaking fuel tank in the car! That's it! Let's pour some fuel in this thing and take her for a drive!........

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-14-2010, 12:15 AM

1st Drive!

Finally!

Kenny helped me toss the front seat back in the car. The rest of the interior has been completely removed for the floor pan replacement so it's going to be a little loud and rattlely for the first drive. Tending to all the little stuff paid off pretty well for the first drive. The 401 runs super. Between a good tune up and the stick shift it runs much stronger in the LeSabre. The transmission and drivetrain couldn't be better. There is zero throttle on throttle off driveline slop. Zero gear whine of any kind in top gear. Transmission shifts great! I'll put some miles under it and report a full shake down soon. Still much to do but it runs and drives under it's own power for the first time in 35 years! You all know the smile that was on my face the first time through the gears!

That's a pic after the first drive parked next to my son Kevins '60 Chevy. The other is of the completed engine shot the same day.

Steve weim55 Colorado

RJBT

11-14-2010, 12:03 PM

Steve,
Glad you are at the gas sender !
Mine (60 Electra) was inoperative, showing full at all times.

So I took the tank out. What a pain doing it alone, especially putting it back. Lesson learned: try doing it with less gas as possible in the tank !!

It turns out it had been repaired before but broke at one of the welds.
I re-welded it and made sure no welds were stressed.
I tested it as well as a spare I have and they both tested the same (dont remember the values).
I remounted the sender and tank and insured the ground was perfect and it shows a 1/4 full when empty and regularly shoots up to full when its not "happy".
I went through all the circuit and everything is fine. I thought maybe the dash gauge was at fault ? But if we have both the same issue then I look forward to your expert help :-)

DinoBob

11-14-2010, 08:06 PM

Boy howdy, Steve! That engine looks great. Power steering too - I forgot that you were adding that!

What a great moment that must have been when you drive the car, Steve. I completely understand/identify.

I'm not planning on pulling my engine from the car. I just have so little free time and so many other things to do. But I do intend to clean up and do some painting. When I do the water pump, I intend to do the chain and gears, and that's when I will do it. Needs valve cover gaskets as well so what better time? Of course, it's not gonna look like that - that's beautiful work and can probably only be done that nicely with the engine out.

That was a great tip on the wheel cylinders - I will definitely remember that when I do my brakes.

Good luck chasing that gas gauge gremlin.

BTW, I read a post somewhere rom a '60 owner that insisted that he ordered and used '61 front shocks on his '60 with no issues. He said they were a perfect fit. I intend to give it a shot.

weim55

11-14-2010, 08:42 PM

Anytime the fuel gauge pegs full that's a sure sign the sending wire, sender itself or gauge cluster is shorting to ground somehow. I'm wondering if I moved that sending wire just enough when I had it apart to touch ground somewhere. Maybe that sending wire got pinched in the trunk by heavy cargo or something. It's gonna be awhile (probably spring time) before I can dig in on the '60 again. I have too much on my plate for the rest of winter. I am getting close though......... I think one more month of work should have her safely on the road.

Steve weim55 Colorado

WQ59B

11-14-2010, 10:40 PM

New front shocks are almost non existant for a '60 Buick. Kanter has 'em but they are pricey at $170 a pair. The front shocks sure did look alot like the ones on my '70 GS 455 so just for a try I bought a pair from NAPA to have a look. They are exactly the same in every way...... housing size, diameter and length. Rod travel, diameter and thread depth. The only difference is the bar that mounts the shock to the lower control arm on the '60 is wider. I thought about changing these out with my old ones but in the end I found there was just no way to cleanly swap out the bars without screwing up the bushings in the new NAPA shocks. I decided to just bite the bullet and pony up for Kanter shocks.

Steve- the 1st pic in this post is the lower mounts for the 2 front shocks, correct? What is the 3rd pic- the rear shocks? Who was the manufacturer of the newer shocks?
Did you consider if there was room to fab a plate> bolt the plate to the control arm, bolt the shock to the plate inboard of the 1st pair of bolts? May not be enough of a difference. Curious as to options here beyond Kanter (I have a '59).

DinoBob

11-15-2010, 10:32 AM

This shock, Monroe #5759, is listed as being the correct shock for the '61-'64 Invicta. It looks right to me as far as I can tell. I plan to try a pair.

weim55

11-15-2010, 10:47 AM

WQ59B,

The 1st and 2nd pic are of the original '60 front shock next to the new '70 GS shock. The 3rd and 4th pic are of the original front shock next to the new Kanter replacement. I thought about trying to make the GS shock work in a similar way that you described. In the end I decided against it since that shock mount takes such beating. Afraid of damaging the control arm should it come loose. The new Kanter shocks do not have a brand name on them and the box had no labels either.

Steve weim55 Colorado

WQ59B

11-15-2010, 11:26 AM

Bob- hopefully you'll update WRT fitment in this thread when you try the Monroes. I wish there was a good gas shock available.

Steve- thanks for the clarification WRT the pics. I would think a steel ring could take the punishment, esp if it was a seriously heavy gauge... but not sure there's room to make it work. Not at all saying you went the wrong route, you understand, just thinking the scenario out.

In my experience, Kanter does the 'conspicuously-unlabeled' things on more than just their shocks. I bought wheel bearings from them some years ago, they came in sealed, unlabeled 'tuna fish cans'- never saw anything like that before or since. I personally got a funny vibe from them- ended up buying NORS bearings for use instead.

DinoBob

11-15-2010, 11:56 AM

It may be a month or so before I install them, but you can bet I'll keep everyone updated.

DinoBob

11-15-2010, 07:17 PM

Also, I have to echo Steve's high regard for the Mity-Vac brake bleeding tool. While I have one of their less expensive plastic-bodied models, with proper care it has served me well for many years. I would not bleed brakes without it.

weim55

11-16-2010, 09:38 AM

Mark,

Your idea is a good one. If I would have known the differences in shocks when I had the front end apart it would have been a great time to modify the control arms to fit the GS shocks. I'd have to say the main motivater for the Kanter choice was time. I just had to get this thing done and out of the garage and driveway for the winter.

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-16-2010, 10:10 PM

It was really bothering me that the left turn signal on my LeSabre lit up white, while the right lit up green. I assumed that the color filter had fallen into the cluster.

Imagine my surprise when, upon opening the cluster, I discovered that the lens itself WAS the color filter. Apparently the sun had faded the left signal/COLD lens, while sparing the right.

Repeating a trick I had performed with a CD changer control some years back, I decided to create my own color filter by running a simple green transparency off on a color laser printer. These puppies are created under 300 degree heat; I knew that the transparency would withstand the heat of the little bulb shining through it from six inches away. Here's some pics.

I simply trimmed two blanks from the sheet, and sandwiched the original filter between the two blanks. It came out great and looks terrific installed.

DinoBob

11-16-2010, 10:35 PM

I took a run up to CARS today and bought everything I needed for the torque ball seal job. I hope.

The kit includes the torque ball retainer, a set of gaskets and shims, and the propeller shaft seal. I bought the torque ball-to-tube gasket (paper) and the O-rings for the inner and outer retainers separately. All of this was about $70. Quite reasonable. I picked up a couple of repro stickers to replace ones missing on the car, just for fun.

The retainer has a rubber bonded ring that forms the seal between the torque ball and itself. This particular point caused me a lot of confusion as I read up on the procedure and researched the parts. Here's why:

The '60 Chassis Manual is a bit misleading on the exact nature of the seal. It states:

"The torque ball has a bonded rubber compression ring which acts as a rubber cushion and seal between the ball and the outer retainer" (page 4-11).

and elsewhere (page 4-15):

"The torque ball has a bonded rubber contact ring on the outer ball face which is compressed between the inner and outer retainers".

I believe that these statements were true for earlier iterations of the ball, but the setup was revised for the '57 model year and later repair kits retrofitted the new design, which places the rubber ring on the retainer instead. The troubleshooting matrix for "Transmission Lubricant Loss at Torque Ball" on page 4-14 gets it right:

(5) Worn or damaged rubber contact ring on torque ball outer retainer".

The cross-sectional view in the book (page 4-15) also shows the correct '60 setup with the ring bonded to the retainer.

Saturday afternoon or Sunday, the car goes up on ramps (front) and jackstands (rear) and out comes the torque tube.

DinoBob

11-16-2010, 10:53 PM

In these pics, you can see the unique "drum" speedometer that allows the "needle" to resemble a thermometer as the speed increases.

This cluster is one of the most amazing designs ever. For those unfamiliar with it, the "Mirro-Magic" cluster is, in fact, located in the lower portion of the dash. What the driver sees is a reflection of the cluster's face through an adjustable mirror. As far as I know, this is a design completely unique to the '60 Buick.

DinoBob

11-16-2010, 11:26 PM

And now for something completely different:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Buick-LeSabre-Bubble-top-1960-Buick-LeSabre-Bubbletop-2-Door-Hard-Top-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27b6993d58QQitemZ17056 7220568QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks#v4-37

This is a car I did not know existed. It's a 2-door hardtop LeSabre with a manual transmission (when it had one, that is).

Wow!

telriv

11-17-2010, 12:21 AM

1961 also had the "Mirro-Magic" Dash cluster.

DinoBob

11-17-2010, 09:52 AM

Ugh, that's embarrassing. Sorry - I always thought it was a '60-only item.

RJBT

11-17-2010, 09:59 AM

I just went through cleaning and repainting mine.... here are a few pics.. Pretty straight forward. I repainted both the back casing and the dash top.
I still have to paint the entire dash top (which goes over the instrument cluster) but that has to match my (red) interior color, which by the way does not match the worn out seat color or the dried out vinyl dash padding. Not sure how to repair the vinyl dash padding (cracked, uneven). If anyone has cheap ideas ?

DinoBob

11-17-2010, 10:53 AM

I'd look for a parts car with good pieces, and use SEM vinyl color to recolor them, if necessary. I am quite fortunate to have nice pieces, I should count my lucky stars.

weim55

11-18-2010, 10:00 PM

It'll be fun when I finally get to the interior portion of my car in the spring. I'll be going through my dash cluster like the both of you. Mine is hidiously dirty. Crossing my fingers hoping it will clean up OK. Good job on the transparency solution for COLD and signal indicator Bob! Mine look the same as yours, a bleached light green. Thanks for the tip! Did either of you have to deal with repairs for the trip odometer reset cable? The parts car and the LeSabre both have the cables sitting in the glove box. Not sure why or how they became detached from the cluster. The '61 does indeed use the same mirror arrangement for the cluster as the '60 even though the rest of the dash is totally different.

Unusual to see another 3-speed car on Ebay. I saw a rough 3-speed convertible for bid a few months back too. Something I noticed on the ebay car plus pics of other LeSabres is the different door hardware. It seems only 2 door sedans use the cheaper style door and window cranks as well as the simpler door pull armrest. All the other LeSabre body styles use the nicer all chrome hardware as well as the long fancy styled arm rests. One of my arm rests is bad. I have a feeling it's gonna be a tough find.

Good luck on the torque tube Bob. I've found the factory service manual to be somewhat vauge for many of the procedures and descriptions. Not what you would expect for a factory read.

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-19-2010, 12:52 AM

I have read that manual over and over, studying each part of the procedures for the work, including the shocks/panhard rod/brake cable removal like I am taking an exam. Every day I read each section at least once, and I keep catching stuff. Though I have done plenty of work on old iron, sometimes the best approach is to assume I know nothing at all. I'm more teachable that way.

I have to say that my '59-60 Cadillac shop manuals were much better, when I was working on that. The Buick version lacks in detail and of course, there are the errors.

Tonight I ventured under the car (40 degrees and wet ground, and me out there with a $3 flashlight) to see what I could loosen in advance. Got the shocks and panhard rod loose w/o much trouble. The lower spring mount on the left was frozen solid. I think I popped a blood vessel trying to work it loose with a 25 inch breaker bar. I thought it would break free as easy as the rest of it. Ha ha, said the '60 Buick.

I'll gratefully take recommendations from folks on loosening the nut without wrecking the mounting stud. What works for you guys? Heat? PB? Both? Does PB/Liquid Wrench really work? I can never tell.

RJBT

11-19-2010, 02:44 AM

My trip odometer reset cable was connected, but it comes off easily (I took it off to paint the casing). If you have the reset cable (and nut) you should be able to put it back. But if it was off maybe there was a reason (?)... My trip odometer does not turn well (its shows half number - not aligned) so I will re dismantle it one day once I get the big stuff repaired...

DinoBob

11-19-2010, 12:28 PM

My trip odometer reset mechanism is a little worn. If I try to reset it, it rolls back one tenth at a time perpetually.

IIRC, the typical reset mechanism works like so: When the tenths wheel gets to the same number as the miles wheel, they begin to roll back together, and when they reach the same number as the tens of miles wheel, all three start rolling, followed by all of the wheels rolling back when they reach the position of the hundreds wheel. Mine does not do that.

While I had the cluster apart, I gave the wheels a little bit of manual "help" rolling back while working the cable, and it worked as I am detailing here, (again, I qualify this by saying that this is how I recall it working). So there may just be a lubrication or adjustment issue. I know very little about the inner workings of odometers, and I recall disassembling one as a kid with catastrophic results (I may have been 8-9 years old at the time). So I was in no hurry to dive into that. It runs properly, the odometer runs properly, and the speedo is steady and quiet. That's enough for me, for now. I have bigger fish to fry.

My '60 Cadillac had none of the above working properly. The cluster went out for a (pricey) rebuild. No funds for paying someone to do that over a little trip odometer.

weim55

11-19-2010, 03:10 PM

A couple of solutions to the frozen spring nuts. You can remove the nuts on the top of the spring that fasten the spring to the frame. You can lower the rear out of the car with the springs still attached if neccessary. If you leave the brake drums on, the rear will roll on the driveway just fine. No jack needed once the rear is on the ground. If all the spring nuts are frozen and they ARE NOT coming off you might be able to do the job with the springs attached and the rear still in the car. With everything else disconnected and rear hanging from the springs, attach a rachet strap from the axle to the frame or bumper at the rear of the car. Tighten the strap pulling the axle toward the back of the car until the torque tube passes through the cross member. Once it clears just have your jack ready to "catch" it. From there you can lower it a bit and disassemble as necc. There's alot of room under there, I have a feeling the above might work.

Hate to rub it in, but I just spun those nuts right off. First try. Colorado cars are always like that. When I do have a problem with frozen fasteners I just use heat. An oxy-ace torch. I've never tried any of the liquid penetrators.

Good Luck!!

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-20-2010, 03:45 PM

Thanks! This car is remarkably solid and clean underneath, being from South Dakota, so I really did not expect this. They looked fine with just a dusting of surface rust.

I soaked them with PB Blaster last night. Sprayed what seemed like half a can into each spring mount. Went out today and got a good Craftsman 6-point socket instead of the 12-point I initially tried. Between that, the 25-inch breaker bar, and the oxy-acetylene torch waiting in the wings (my dad just bought a brand new setup), we'll get 'em loose in short order, I think.

Tomorrow's the big day. 47 degrees is the forecast. Oh well. Here goes!

DinoBob

11-21-2010, 02:53 PM

Update: Good and bad. More bad than good, I think.

In short, the nuts came link off in a blink after a soaking with PB Blaster and 36 hour soak time. The rest of the disassembly was simple except for the actual removal of the ball and retainer. Spoke to weim55 and the solution was easy: Jack up the trans a few inches. Worked like a charm.

However, there seem to be serious issues with the inner retainer, torque ball, and universal. The universal output yoke showed some very mild scoring and no pitting so I thought we were in good shape. But the joints are badly damaged, and released some metal shards which chewed up the inner retainer and inner surface of the torque ball pretty good. The bushing in the torque ball does not look good, either, and the outer face of the ball has a small flat spot.

I'll post a full set of pictures tonight. Car is apart and will be until we chase down some hard-to-find parts.

DinoBob

11-21-2010, 07:59 PM

OK, here goes:

Pic 1 is the underside of the torque tube. We can see seepage of fresh gear oil from the grease fitting cover- clearly oil getting into the tube.

As per the FSM's procedure, I made two guide pins by cutting the heads off of two 3/8-16 x 3.5 inch bolts, and slotting the bolt with a hacksaw. After removing all four torque tube to transmission bolts, I then put these in the upper left and lower right torque tube mounting holes. This allows the driveline to slide off of the torque tube without damaging the propeller shaft seal.

Pic 2 is the driveline out of the car. The moving dollies were about $8.99 each at Harbor Freight. They were just the thing. Once we had everything set, each one of us (Dad and I) lay down on either side of the car, put a foot on a drum, and 1-2-3, PUSH. The driveline came loose easier than we thought and we were unprepared. The nose dropped right off of the guide pins but came down perfectly on the jack, thank God. We rolled it out and surveyed. The brake lines are recent, once dusted off they still had the black coating on them. Someone did some work in the not-too-distant past. I have not pulled a drum yet but I plan to take a look real soon.

Pic 3 - The shocks are MonroMatic. I do not recall the number offhand but it's not the one currently in their catalog.

Pics 4-9 at first blush, all covered in oil, I thought the universal was OK. Sadly I was quite mistaken. The scoring on the output yoke is not terrible- you can't catch any of it with your fingernail- but the joints are shot. You can see that the retaining clips, which are of a design I am unfamilar with, are shot. Shards of metal are working their way out of them. The splines look OK to me. I am actually quite surprised that the joint was not ripped up worse at the output yoke.

DinoBob

11-21-2010, 09:14 PM

There's also a good bit of slop in those joints.

The metal bits floating around are what caused all of this damage to the torque ball internals.

Pic 1 is the inside of the torque ball. Lots of metal chewed up here. That's ugly.

Pic 2 is the bronze bushing in the ball. Lots of scoring and scratches. I do not think that any of the metal made its way in here - things would look far worse. I think that the metal was confined to the outside and did not infiltrate the fitment between the yoke and the bushing. That would mean that it did not make its way down the torque tube to the rear differential - but we'll confirm that.

Pics 3-4 are the outside (contact) surface of the torque ball. There's some mild pitting and a flat spot. This is where it makes its seal to the retainer. Clearly that's not going to seal.

Pic 5 is the inside of the outer torque ball retainer. There's a paste in that retainer made of greasy residue and metal shavings. Uyy. The seal is all chewed up on the edge - it was leaking badly here.

Pics 6-7 are the inner torque ball retainer. The outside has quite a bit of damage, similar to the torque ball. Some of this damage seems to have worn the retainer thin in spots - there are some dimples showing on the inside.

I'm guessing that all of these parts will need replacement. I do not think that the damage on the inside of the ball and inner retainer are of any consequence, by themselves- they do not have to make a seal - but the wear and pitting on the outer face of the torque ball would keep it from making a seal, and the dimples on the inner wall of the inner retainer imply that the metal is worn pretty thin there.

weim55

11-22-2010, 09:02 PM

Bob,

Bummer to run into surprise work and parts needs. If you have a problem rounding up those parts, I do still have all the original stuff from my LeSabre. I'm pretty sure the torque ball bushing would need to be replaced though. I think my torque ball and retainer are OK.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55

11-22-2010, 11:13 PM

First Driving Impressions

I've been able to put a few miles on the LeSabre driving the rural area close to home. It's a mix of decent dirt roads and pavement. Put about 50 some odd miles on the car driving this loop a few times. Cool machine! Really like it so far. Work done thus far has paid off nicely with a good runner. A few thoughts on the first miles.........

The suspension work was a home run. I really didn't do anything special other than to buy quality components and go through and check EVERYTHING. I'm stunned just how well this car drives. Granted I have no real comparisions other than motoring the parts car around a bit. The parts car had that Queen Mary, marshmellow , Titanic kinda feel. The LeSabre is dare I say, pretty tight and even a bit nimble. The two best new suspension items have to be the sway bar bushings and the front shocks. The sway bars bushings, frame and links, were all polyurathane. So that bar is TIGHT and WORKING with even the slightest input from the steering wheel. Same story for the shocks. Those 5/8 front shocks coupled with the rears at 10 lbs of air work GOOD. No more "floaty" feeling. Power steering works fine but boy they sure had too much assist back then. The car is still a '60 Buick and has plenty of understeer but it does handle well for the tank that it is. Nothing scary, very controllable. It only has a tape measure alinement at this point so a trip to the shop in the spring is in order. I'm happy with the underpinnings. The true test will be when I can really get some highway under her.

Running gear seems pretty good to. 401 is just what the doctor ordered. I was never able to drive her with the original 364 but suffice to say the bigger engine with some compression was a change only for the better. I live at an altitude of 7200 feet so low compression and smaller displacement can be really doggy up here. The high compression really helps the low speed torque. Toss in the added displacement, the four barrel and stick shift, this thing is actually fun to drive. It's no tire burner but it does run strong. And Buick smooth. At 450 rpm idle speed it just purrs smooth as glass. Tranny shifts well. Syncros are good, non syncro 1st though! Double clutches into 1st just fine with a little practice. No gear slop at all. The transmission design goes all the way back to 1938 and has that cool old car "whine" in 1st and 2nd gears. Coupled with the column shift it adds to that great old car vibe. At highway speeds the car is just smooth and silent. Rear axle has zero gear whine. I'm stunned even with no interior and bare steel floors just how quiet this thing is. Again, Buick smooth.

There are a couple of bad things. First is that gear ratio deal. Just as I thought first gear is high for those 3.23s You have to slip the clutch a bit too much to get her rollin'. And the ratios are too close. I could live with it........ but it's not likely I'll leave it as is. I hope to find a box with better ratios to swap in by spring. I'll detail what I've learned about that in a later post. The clutch chatters a bit too. I should have mocked up the clutch and flywheel on the bench and measured the finger height before installation. I probably could have adjusted the pressure plate to correct what is now a problem. There's also a minor stumble off idle as you tip in the throttle. Add all the above together and you have a car that's a little tricky to get moving from a standing stop. Brakes pull a little to the right. I'll do the front end alinement and see if the problem is still there. The LeSabre is car guy driveable but not every guy drivable in it's current state. I have the above plus a minor list of things to address to finish the mechanicals. I'll spell out the whole list in a future post.

Final thoughts.......

It's really cool to spin some wheels for the first time in a car that has been sitting so long. This car last ran in 1975. I was in the 5th grade then! (i'm 45 now...) To get a taste of an era I was too young to experience firsthand myself. The view, through the windshield or the rear view mirror, is just wicked. The fins in the rear AND the front. That raparound windsheild is massive. Steel, steel, steel! Chrome, chrome! Everything is perfectly excessive. HUGE! A nice balance of mechanical and "modern" (1960) smoothness and ease of operation. Even though I went through most of the mechanicals, the meat of all the running gear is just as it was assembled and engineered by GM employees 50 years ago. The hands that assembled that rear axle, the engine, little did they know their work would still be humming to perfection 50 years later. Untouched. That's QUALITY Jack!...........

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

11-22-2010, 11:28 PM

What a great write-up.

This was my first car with a transmission of this nature. I had a '72 Ventura with a 3-speed and some other '70s cars with sticks, but the '60 was my first "dinosaur" standard trans. I was very surprised by the gear whine in first, and by the non-synchro first as well.

That car may have been built by the boys at GM, but you brought it back and you should take some pride in that!

I may have a source for my parts. I'll keep you posted.

telriv

11-23-2010, 02:09 AM

Steve, check to see how the vacuum advance is hooked up. On many/most auto cars the distributor vacuum advance is connected to manifold vacuum. On standard shift cars it is usually hooked up to "Ported" vacuum. This is normally one of the small differences between auto & standard shift cars. With full vacuum to the vacuum advance when you try to accelerate you lose vacuum & the timing retards. On an auto you don't notice it because you are just accelerating, but on a standard you are trying to do multiple things at once. Give it a try you may be pleasantly surprised your "Tip-in" hesitation could be gone. Also, another little tid-bit. If there is TOO much "Shot" from the accelerator pump it can cause the same problems. If the distributor thing works now it's time for a re-curve.
Just some thoughts.

Tom T.

weim55

11-23-2010, 08:37 PM

Good thinking Tom! Sounds like that could be the problem. I just connected the distributor vacuum line to the same place on the carburetor it was originally. Another fact that could add to your idea is because of the altitude here idle vacuum is considerably lower than sea level. Idle vacuum in the 14 to 15 inch area. At tip in on the throttle the vacuum goes away almost completely here. I'll look into it the next time I drive the car.

Thanks,

Steve weim55 Colorado

Caballero3

11-25-2010, 06:53 AM

Steve:
I live not too far from you. I would be interested in the dynaflow tranny in your parts car if you would like to sell it.

Dan

weim55

11-26-2010, 11:09 AM

Dan, PM sent

Thanks, Steve

DinoBob

11-28-2010, 02:07 PM

Steve, tried to PM you but your inbox is full. I have a couple of questions. Let me know when you have cleared some space.

Thanks. I hope you (and all) enjoyed your Thanksgiving holiday.

weim55

11-30-2010, 10:32 PM

Done Bob. Sorry 'bout that.

Steve

weim55

12-01-2010, 11:40 PM

Thoughts on the project thus far........

At the start of thread I talked about a few goals and thought I should comment on how the plan is going.

I should start with how I wound up with this car in the first place. In the back of my mind I've had a lust for a full size american car in the say... '57 to '70 range for some time. I'm not too picky, I like dozens and dozens of 'em. For all different reasons. I just knew when I came across the right car, right style, right condition, right price, right time, I'd jump. While I'd say I am a Buick guy, I'd entertain almost any make on this one. There's alot of great choices of the era. I wasn't looking for a '60 Buick.

Then came this LeSabre. You guys that know '60 Buicks already know what my pulse did when I laid eyes on this thing for the first time. The lines on this car are just BAD ASS ! Talk about a stamp in time ! A '60 Buick has that in SPADES! The jet airplane, factory "custom" styling. It's a great theme car that just screams "1960". Though many consider this model to be a toned down '59, I have to kindly disagree. This car has nothing in common with a '59Buick other than fins on the back and the greenhouse. I would even go so far as to say the Buick is definatly the cleanest of the wacked out 1960 styling throughout Detroit. And other good stuff.... The massive proportions. Look at ANY panel on this car and think about what it took to design and produce it. The windsheild. Just look at that peice of glass! The grill has I don't know how many flutes.... cast and all chrome. The thing probably weighs 20 lbs. !

So yea, this car "hit" me visually at first sight. But what did it for me with this very car was how original, straight and rust free it was. All the paint is original so no mystery underneath. Decent chrome. Decent stainless. Nothing missing. 100% complete. (OK, the carpet was stripped out of it...) Then throw in the odd body style, nailhead power and the stick tranny. That sealed an impluse buy. Something I try to never do. I thought hey, I can can toss a couple grand and a months time at this thing and have a decent driver!

Not quite so as I would soon learn. I still have my mind stuck back in my musclecar days. That stuff was just 10 or 15 years old back then. Old to me then. Just old used cars that needed a bit of time cleanup to hit the road. The LeSabre is FIFTY years old now. Fifty year old cars that havn't run for 35 years need ALOT of work to hit the road again. Even a car as decent the LeSabre to start with. So I bit off alot more than I thought in time and money.

So far I have $3913 into the car. That breaks down to $1700 purchase, $800parts car and $1413 in new parts to the point it is at right now. And that doesn't count some of the used misc. stuff I just had lying around. 5 months of off and on labor. Just to get the car running as a driver. Not to restore it. Annnnnd I still have to finish the complete interior and lots of other little things to see the road in proper condition. Another $1000 dollars and at least two more months of labor. That puts me at about $5500 said and done when the car hits the road in the spring. Judging from watching these cars on Ebay my LeSabre would bring close to that same number. I feel OK if I can at least get my money spent back out of a car should I need to sell . The years of fun I get drivin' pay for the labor.

While I don't regret this buying this machine, I think I could have done better for my situaton. The idea was to find a decent machine that didn't need a restoration to be a driver. Something nice but not too nice to keep the $$ down and be OK driving alot more than the typical special interest car. For the most part the LeSabre fills the bill. The things that don't: The paint is weaker than I thought under all that 35 years of dirt. The interior needs a great deal of work I didn't see when I first looked it over. I didn't EVEN anticipate stripping the ENTIRE running gear end to end to get her running. More money and ALOT more time to get her goin' then I thought. Thank god I came across that parts car. Saved the budget and alot of time I would have used looking for all the parts I needed.

All said I still dig the car. A 1960 Buick fills my original desire well. BUT, It still isn't done yet. What surprises are yet to come????

Steve weim55 Colorado

telriv

12-02-2010, 06:14 AM

There are ALWAYS surprises. I guess to us gear heads, that's what kinda makes it fun!!!!!. Gears, grease, gas & guts!!!! I still feel your doing one HELLAVA job!!!!!!! Not many would have takin' on what you have. You've saved another piece of history for ALL to enjoy & I feel you will enjoy it for years to come.

Tom T.

73-462GS

12-02-2010, 08:56 AM

Man don't give up on it!! It is too neat of a space ship. It always costs more than you think. Peace, Mike D.

DinoBob

12-03-2010, 10:36 AM

Wow, Steve, you said it very well. I have a particular love for '59-60 GM passenger cars, so my search for my car was much narrower.

I was looking at a '60 Olds in my area that had been siting garaged for the better part of a decade. It was, overall, much better than my own LeSabre turned out to be. I would certainly have done better from a financial standpoint buying the Olds.

But the lines of the Buick, the fact that it's a two-door, that wonderful grille and dash, the great fins, all of that is great stuff. My car is very solid underneath but the body and mechanicals need more work than I anticipated as well. Interior too.

We are at just about the same dollar amount in terms of investment with several dollars to go. I intend to restore the car, so I have a couple thousand to go, at least.

We'll see how it all comes out! I'll race you to the finish...:-)

Bob

weim55

12-03-2010, 01:57 PM

It is nice to get another Space Ship (loved that term!) back on the road. A bummer to have to part out another to make it happen. The Invicta parts car is a now familiar story of vehicles this age. A couple of past owners have kept it around all these years hoping to do something with it. Because it's been outside for decades now it's been vunerable to sun, weather, vandals, theives and ownership change.... (read: parts removed and lost...). What was a pretty clean 66,000 mile original car 30 years ago is now a decayed hulk that would cost a fortune to put back on the road. What a shame. There are dozens of others I know about falling into the same fate. Great cars when discovered 25 or 30 years ago. Now.... you can be pretty sure the next stop for 'em will be the crusher. Or at best someone will use 'em for parts. Lucky for me the LeSabre was stored inside. It saved the car. Which in turn allowed me to get it back on the road for reasonable time and money.

We should both be drivin' 'em in the spring Bob! We'll see how it goes.....

Steve weim55 Colorado

RJBT

01-04-2011, 11:10 AM

Steve,
Wondering if you have made any new progress on your car ?
It always look forward to reading your write ups...
Looking forward this new year to the next one ;-)

bhambulldog

01-04-2011, 08:27 PM

Steve,
Wondering if you have made any new progress on your car ?
It always look forward to reading your write ups...
Looking forward this new year to the next one ;-)
X2

DinoBob

01-08-2011, 12:58 PM

Can't speak for Steve, but for me in NJ, with the other LeSabre, I have not made any preogress since November when I yanked the torque ball and driveline out. :-( I am waiting for some parts from someone whom I discovered to be of suspect reputation and I am beginning to think I will have to enact a plan B to get them, which means I would be eating $100. I hate eating money.

mit800

01-09-2011, 11:01 AM

Cool thread! Subscribed

weim55

01-09-2011, 05:01 PM

Thanks for the interest guys! I WILL be getting back to the project but it's going to be awhile. I'm in the middle of house remodel stuff and the LeSabre is gonna have to wait 'til I'm done pounding nails. I'm hoping to get back to it sometime in March. In the meantime I'll try to get a couple of things rolling that I'll need when spring comes. I'll post as I dig in.

Thanks,

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

03-17-2011, 10:17 AM

I am bumping this back up. Warm weather is coming and it's time for Steve and I to get these cars back on the road.

I need some help with the front universal. I need a good 1960 front universal. Dynaflow or stick- I do not care. I have access to a lathe. I just need the universal to be in good shape. Please help if you can- Sandy has been on blocks for 4 months now.

DinoBob

03-17-2011, 10:44 AM

BTW, I did get a usable torque ball and retainer- so the parts buy did not go ALL bad. He also refunded me $40 for the universal.

emazingli

03-18-2011, 06:59 AM

Always in good condition weim55! Nice post up!

weim55

03-28-2011, 09:57 PM

Unfortunately I have some remodeling going on here at the house.

Going on and on and on.............

So no time for the '60 just yet. I am trying to get a few things in order to be ready when the time comes.

Been looking for a replacement 3 speed stick with a lower first gear. I hope to swap out the gearset into my original box. these transmissions are hard to find. If any of you know of one I'd love to hear from you.

I want the original radio to work well. I just HAVE to have that correct AM sound to go with the era of the car. It does play but the original speaker is shot and a couple of the push buttons are broken. Anyone ever have a speaker reconed? Should I just find a replacement the same size? Anyone have a better radio they would like to sell?

I need to obtain a carpet set. Any of you have a referal to a good quality vendor that can supply a '60?

Any of you ever try to change the door panel "boards" and reuse the original vinyl? My boards are in terrible condition from water damage but the vinyl is still pretty decent. I'd like to give this a try.

I won't be able to get back to the project til around May or so. I WILL get back to it !!

Patience.....

Steve weim55 Colorado

telriv

03-29-2011, 03:09 AM

I believe that all the 6 bolt top cover trans. had all the same ratios. I have a '56 trans. I removed from a car I drove for 2 years that's good. No noises or, but not cheap.
If you find a replacement speaker make sure you replace it with the same ohm output as you have. Most today are 4 ohm as opposed to the original of 10 ohms. I'm sure a radio rebuilder will have some extra parts so you may want to give that a try.
As far as carpeting give J.C. Whitney a look see.
Depending how bad the cardboard is I have used thin Formica at Home Depot or, & glued it to the back of the panels. I also use it for kick panels & rear quarter interior panels. You could also go dumpster diving where a home is being remodeled for no $$$$ outlay.
Just some thoughts.

Tom T.

60electra225

03-29-2011, 04:36 AM

If you want Green carpet, there has been a set on eBay for the past 2 years. I wanted it for mine, but the freight to Australia kills it.

There are also replacement speakers on eBay. Because of the ridiculous minimum of 10 posts before you can post links, I can't give you the direct item number, but put the following into the eBay search box OEM 4x10" Speaker 4 x 10 Older GM Ford Chyrsler Style

bhambulldog

03-30-2011, 07:11 PM

I have seen a few Radios for '55 on Ebay.:Comp:
Maybe, some for '60 there...(?) ...:Do No:

DinoBob

04-06-2011, 04:23 PM

Steve, the speaker setup is a bit unusual. It is a round speaker, but the frame has a 3/8' thick styrofoam "gasket" between the frame and the dash panel. You could probably adapt something, but I would recommend a recone. I took mine out, and used a bit of silicone to seal up where the dust cap for the voice coil had separated from the cone. This was a very good idea. I then used a pair of black nylons to fashion a replacement dust screen for the speaker. Also a very good idea. I'm brilliant, right? No. What I did not do was to cut the dust cap off and gently blow the dust and dirt of 50 years out with some air. So the voice coil has dirt in it and "rubs" when moving, producing a scratchy, squealing sound when the volume is high. Had I done that I would probably have been OK. So I think I will need a recone as well, :0(

weim55

04-06-2011, 09:38 PM

Finding '60 Buick radios without broken push buttons is almost impossible. The plastic on the buttons is very thin and "hollow" behind the letter. Add a few decades and the plastic becomes very brittle and breaks apart. There's a guy in New Jersey that has a perfect unit, but it's a little far for me to do the midnight auto thing......... (lol....)

There was a place here in Denver that used to recone car speakers. I'll try lookin' 'em up this week and let you know what I find.

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

04-07-2011, 10:26 AM

Hey! No five-finger discount on my radio!

Seriously, though, I broke one of them almost immediately after getting the car. I pushed it in and a piece chipped right out. I discovered that Krazy Glue is wonderful for repairing these if you have the chip- pretty much invisible. So if you have the pieces, it can be fixed.

Now I just do not use the pushbuttons. I twirl the knob. On AM, the only thing I listen to is sports talk and the Yankees, so I only go from 660 to 880 and back. We used to have an oldies station at 1450 but it's sadly defunct.

DinoBob

04-07-2011, 10:27 AM

Also, my universal is on the way, and I found a trans mount. So I will be banging away again very soon. Now if the weather would just warm up a few more degrees....soon there will be late nights under halogen worklamps as I get the car back on the ground. I can't wait.

DinoBob

04-21-2011, 09:47 PM

Decided today that I needed to do something on the car...just needed to get back in the habit of working on it. So I pulled the rear out from under the car and hung a set of brake shoes and a wheel cylinder on the right rear. Ahhhhh, Midwest cars....the brake line came off like it had been installed 5 minutes ago. The lines are in excellent shape. I plan to clean them with a wire brush and lay a coat of flat black paint on them to keep them around a while.

So, now I am in the right frame of mind to go forward. The universal arrived yesterday and looks great. I am going to send it to the machine shop to be cut down to standard trans specs, and I have a brand new NOS torque ball bushing which has to be pressed in.

I'll post more with pics soon.

DinoBob

04-26-2011, 10:36 AM

Any updates, Steve? My torque ball and universal are at the machine shop today having the cutdown work done and the new bushing pressed into the torque ball.

weim55

04-26-2011, 08:36 PM

I've obtained another 3 speed stick transmission that has the lower 1st gear ratio than the original in my '60. It's from an earier year Buick, '40 to '48 one source tells me. The first chance I get I'll be pulling the transmission back out of the LeSabre to see if a gearset swap is possible with that older trans.
We'll see.........

Steve weim55 Colorado

bhambulldog

04-26-2011, 08:57 PM

Does it have synchronized low gear? Most, of those older ones don't have synchronizer on the low gear. Requiring, double clutch on the down shift (to low).

telriv

04-27-2011, 01:26 AM

Neither does the '60.

bhambulldog

04-27-2011, 05:06 PM

Well, then. You're good to go! :TU:

DinoBob

04-27-2011, 11:30 PM

Indeed, the first gear of the '60 is non-synchro as well. The gearing on this trans really does not encourage you to downshift to first very much. You can take off from a stop in second if you are on level ground or downhill. The service manual specifically says that it's quite fine to do so. That's how short second is. Most of the time I do not bother. I just drop to neutral and brake.

Steve, good luck my man. Keep us posted. I pick up my trans parts tomorrow.

DinoBob

05-07-2011, 10:32 PM

Well, the first time I really did any serious work on the car in six months. And I have questions!

Today I installed the new universal and torque ball kit. There were some minor frustrations but all in all, things progressed OK. I was concerned about the trans mount as I am not able to locate a new one, but as it turned out it is in serviceable condition, so it was reused. The outer retainer O-ring did not come with the kit- annoying. Fortunately, I kept the one that came off and it was in fine condition.

I had to remove the universal from the shaft once, as it would not go on. We dressed down the edges of the splines carefully with a file and tried again. Went on much easier. Clearly the cutting down of the input yoke left some sharp edges on the splines. We should have thought of that.

There's something else we should have thought of.

When we got the torque ball all buttoned up and the bolts torqued down, my dad said, "Let's look at that propeller shaft. Hm.....what's with the keys in those two grooves?

"Dad, those are for proper mating of the prop shaft to the universal. Since the rear also has a universal, they have to be phased properly."

"Well, your new universal doesn't have those."

"Yes it does."

"No, it doesn't. Trust me- I just looked at it."

"Uhhhhh ohhhhhh"......

Well, sure enough, I checked and the universal I fitted has no blind splines for the propeller shaft. I just plain never checked or noticed. I figure it must be a 1955-56 universal. I think they added the two omitted splines in '57 (I could be off on the years) when they added the second universal at the rear of the tube.

Now, this is a real pickle. For one, I already bought and modified this universal. For another, I went through the considerable trouble of installing it. I really do not want to go through all of that again.

So, what to do? I have some thoughts on it. Could really use advice/warnings/confirmation.

I have three universals in my possession. The old (bad) one, another that I got from someone, which also turned out to be bad, and the one I installed in the car. On the two that I have out of the car, there are two notches approximately 180 degrees apart, in the front edge of the output yoke. On both of these universals, there is a notch at 12 o'clock, two splines to the right, and then the omitted spline. At 6 o'clock, the pattern is repeated. Notch, two splines to the right,, then the omitted spline.

The universal installed in the car has the same two notches. We are assuming that these notches indicate the same relative position of the universal.

Our thinking is that we will be OK if we make a similar set of notches on the front edge of the prop shaft, two grooves to the left of each "keyed" groove. These should theoretically line up with the notches on the universal during installation. Then we would carefully file the "keys" out of the grooves in the propeller shaft and install it. Fortunately these keys only extend about 1/8 inch into the groove; the entire groove is not keyed.

I hope that makes sense, and I also sincerely hope that these two notches are consistent with the notches in the two later-model universals I have on the bench.

Thanks for reading.

telriv

05-08-2011, 05:02 AM

When U-Joints are out of "Phase" (not lined up) it will cause a vibration. I know for a fact that if the joints are out of phase (67.5*) on the two piece drive-shafts on my '64 Riv. the car will vibrate & just be uncomfortable to drive. You DON'T want to keep driving the vehicle if it does vibrate, causes much other damage. Keep your figures crossed it's smooth & you don't have to go through dismantling it again. On the positive side look at all the experience you are gaining. LOL

Tom T.

weim55

05-09-2011, 11:27 AM

Bob, Is this already a done deal and back together?

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

05-09-2011, 08:15 PM

Steve, all kidding aside, without hearing from you I was not putting that torque tube back.

In the heat of having put the torque ball back in, I was reluctant to take it back out. But the next day, when the hands were cleaned and the body rested, I decided that I need to remove the torque ball and be sure I get the positioning of the universal correct.

Steve, I am all ears. Any ideas/warnings/"Don't Do That!" s?

weim55

05-09-2011, 11:25 PM

Bob,

The idea you outlined to properly clock the joints sounds like a winner. A little work with a die grinder will make quick work of filing down the splines. The only other thing I would is to remove the torque tube from the rear axle to expose the driveshaft completely. With the rearend already out of the car it will only take a matter of minutes. Then you can aline your u-joint crosses and be certain the phase is correct.

It's always something isn't it ?

Good luck......

Steve weim55 Colorado

DinoBob

05-10-2011, 06:08 AM

Good idea, Steve. I wanted to drain it anyway, so why not? I was also going to replace all the brake lines, I decided, so I will really have the whole thing bare. Are there any gaskets in the halves of the tube? I don't think so.

Steve, I was extremely surprised to discover that my plain-jane 4411 LeSabre has a limited slip differential. Does yours?

Glad I realized it as I have to put some Positraction lube in it when I refill it.

RJBT

05-10-2011, 09:10 AM

Limited slip differential ? really ?
Does that mean that my 1960 Electra has one ? I'm about to refill the rear end... I'm confused now .....

DinoBob

05-10-2011, 09:55 AM

The limited slip rear is an option. If you have it, there will be a tag on the pumpkin that reads "Use Limited Slip Diff. Fluid Only". If that's the case, add a 4 oz. bottle of GM Positraction Lube to your 90W gear oil.

RJBT

05-10-2011, 10:24 AM

a tag on the pumpkin ???

I checked my fridge and I only have zuchini !

........ What does the tag look like ? Should it be mentioned on the vin/body tag ?

DinoBob

05-10-2011, 10:42 AM

Sorry. The "pumpkin" I refer to is the center of the rear differential. It's where the fill plug is. If you look on the center of the rear differential, above the fill plug, there may be a metal tag tack-welded there. It's rectangular. On the tag will be the warning. If there is no tag, then the differential is not limited slip.

Comparing pictures of your differential with mine, it seems that you do not have the limited slip. The tag would be visible in the photo.

John Codman

05-10-2011, 11:38 AM

Neither does the '60.

Synchronized first gear in three speed manuals first appeared (I hate to say this) in Ford gearboxes in about 1963. Prior to that, I am not aware of any three-speed manuals that had a synchro first.

weim55

05-10-2011, 10:50 PM

Bob, No gaskets in the tube to diff. area. Just bolt together and go. Mine does not have limited slip. In the original 3.91 diff or the 3.23s from the Invicta parts car. Heck, while you have the torque tube off check the axle ratio and see if it was ordered something other than the standard 3.91s. Simple to do, just mark one of the drums at 12 oclock and turn the axle one fulll revolution. Count the number of turns at the pinion shaft for that one revolution of the axle and you have your ratio. IE - Just shy of 4 full turns at the pinion will be 3.91s .

John, What an interesting bit of information on the first syncro 3 three speed. I never even thought about the first years of that "modern" bit of engineering. And so late in the game. 1963 ?! Wow.... Could the first GM T10 4 speeds in the late 50s be the first ever stick trannys with a syncro first?

Steve weim55 Colorado

invicted61

05-12-2011, 12:11 AM

Steve, I will start by thanking you for such a great post its been interesting to read. You bought your car from a friend of mine that has his shop just around the corner from me. I remember the car well and am so happy to read that you have got her back on the road. There is nothing worse than seeing old cars rot away.
I bought a 61 Invicta 4 door hard top from the same guy. I have had it for a year or so now but have just recently really started work on it. The 401 is froze up but I have it ready to pull so I can tear it down and see what the damage is. The car is very straight and everything is there. The interior is good for its age but i pulled the carpet as I could tell by the musty smell it had been wet. The drivers side floor board is good but the passenger side is perforated pretty good. It will be ok for awhile but i will have to replace it sometime down the road.
Maybe I will do a post on my 61 project I just don't know if i would be very diligent in my updates.

weim55

05-13-2011, 07:19 PM

Invicted61,

I remember that car. Zak had it for sale at the same time he had my '60. A very solid car as I remember. Nicer than mine. Good luck with that old girl. And lucky you, none of that torque tube monkey business on your '61!

Do you have any thoughts as to why my '60 and your '61 are so rust free? Not being from your area I just assumed most of Missouri was bad for body rot on old cars. My '60 does have that flakey undercarriage rust that you would never see in Colorado but the exterior sheetmetal is almost completely rust free. Your '61 was even cleaner than mine as I remember.

Thanks for the words and good luck with that Invicta!

Steve weim55 Colorado

invicted61

05-13-2011, 11:30 PM

Ya know its really strange Steve, but there is a lot of old tin around here that is not bad kinda of like our cars but then there are a ton of newer trucks (70's/80's) that are tore up with cancer. I assume that it must be that when the weather is bad they didn't drive the cars and stuck with the pickups. ?
I am not a midwest native so only a guess.

I hope you make it back for the HAMB show again and can bring the 60.
I would love to see it and I bet the Hardy's would too!

Kirk B.

DinoBob

05-22-2011, 07:55 PM

Bob In NJ here. Well, the torque tube is back in the car! She's sitting on all four wheels for the first time since November. What a great sight. I also was very reluctant to start her on 4 jackstands, so she has not run in just as long (though I periodically cranked her over to keep things from getting sticky).

I elected not to take the entire torque tube apart, Steve - I figured out that I did not need to in order to know that my universal was situated properly. After filing out the keys in the propeller shaft grooves, we fitted up the old universal to the propeller shaft, and lined it up dead on. We then lined up the universal in the trans dead on the same way and snicked the trans into gear. After that, I did remove the front tube. Made sure that no excess fluid was still in the tube, checked the carrier bearing (great), and put it back together. We then tipped the rear skyward and drained it.

After that, I assembled the inner retainer, torque ball, and outer retaiiner. There is only one way to do this- get the outer retainer and torque ball worked into position in the big hole in the frame that the tube goes through, and then bring the inner retainer into place, followed by the ball and outer retainer.

After screwing the retainer bolts in hand-tight, we rolled that beast under the car. My dad had it on two moving dollies. When it was roughly in place, about 6 inches back of its usual spot, we jacked it up off the dollies and repositioned the propeller shaft, again using the old universal as a reference. Once we were doubly sure that all was where it should be, it was a matter of raising the height of the rear to just the right level, and playing with the lateral position just a bit back and forth, we were rewarded with a satisfying little "snick" as the pieces mated. We then pushed her into place. It is CRITICAL that you use 2 3 inch guide pins here in the torque ball to help you slide the pieces together. Just cut the heads off of two bolts, slot them with a hacksaw, and screw them in. Otherwise, you will probably wreck the propeller shaft seal during the installation.

After that, we reattached the springs, installed new shocks, and dropped her down. We then put the panhard rod bolt through and tightened it up.

It was close to dinner at this point so we fired her up and let her run for a while (float was stuck, I had to rap on the carb with a block of wood). She ran a good 20 minutes at idle and fast idle, and some sustained higher RPM periods courtesy of my right foot.

I have a few pics I will post later. I wanted to take more, but my dad has very little patience for that- he just wants things DONE- so I did not snap a few I would have liked, nor, sadly, did I get the ratio of the posi rear. Sorry to say that. I knew he would have really been unhappy to stop for that...he's 65 and a little cranky some days.

Before I drive the car at all, at least three things need to be done- I have to fill the rear, fix the shift shaft seal and fill the trans, and then I have to finish the brakes. After that, to be roadable, she needs:

Steering box fixed- leaks badly
Water pump
Exhaust work (intermediate pipe has a hole where the clamp connects)
Tires
Carb rebuild

and then she will provide a lot of driving fun while I work on her.

Thanks for all of your advice and help so far, gang- can't wait to drive her around.

bhambulldog

05-22-2011, 09:01 PM

Nice work, Bob! :TU:

wolf64

05-28-2011, 12:25 PM

Hi guys,
that was a interesting thread about those 60's Buicks. You all did a great job on the cars and with helping each other. You also had to invest some money and sweat, but let me tell you, you are still on the lucky side.
Those cars you buy for 1500$, we buy for 8000$ to 12000$ in a even much more bad condition. You just walk in to parts shops or junk yards to get some parts, we normaly have to order it from the states. Sometimes we can find some leftover parts in Bangkok. But its always a hassle, if parts on the cars are missing. But we still love the old american cars and restore it. Although we are living in Thailand and for here is it a real expensive hobbie. But we get more and more old american steel back to the road.
I am also working on my 60' Le Sabre, 2 door, 364 Nailhead and Dynaflow as well as on a 58' Buick Special, 2 door with the same engine.

Thanks for reading and good luck to all of you.

Wolf

DinoBob

05-30-2011, 09:03 PM

Wolf, that's dedication. I know it must be hard as heck to put these cars back together. I will say that for us, the act of walking in to parts stores for '60 Buick parts is now largely in the past. But CARS (www.oldbuickparts.com (http://www.oldbuickparts.com)) is about 15 miles from me so I can go there whenever I want.

DinoBob

05-30-2011, 09:16 PM

Well, after a couple of late night sessions on the car this weekend, I now have the rear brakes installed, and all of the brake lines bent up and installed as well. Bending those lines up can be very time-consuming as you get each bend correct, add the brake armor, and double-flare the lines. I had no idea they would take as long as they did...but the results looked great, just like factory. Installing them was the single most digusting thing I have ever done on a car. The steering box leak, which is pretty severe, has really made a hideous mess out of the underside of the car. My hands were digging through layers of encrusted slime in order to get the right front line undone and the new one installed. Between that and the years of dirt layered on everything underneath I was an absolute mess when I came in last night. The rear drums are off at the shop being cut. They will be back on Wednesday.

I feel like I got a lot done in the last week. She started last week up on jackstands with the driveline out, and is now back on the ground with driveline in and brakes progressing rapidly. I also just got a small influx of capital so I will be ordering some exhaust pieces, a water pump (rebuild), a carb kit, vacuum advance, and a master cylinder kit this week. My goal is to have her on the road by July 15. We'll see. With a high school graduation, a vacation, and some other weekend things coming up, that may be a bit ambitious.

This week I will be installing the front shocks and I will let you know how the '61 Buick shocks fit.

wolf64

05-31-2011, 09:12 AM

Thanks for your replay and the Link DinoBob.
See, that's a advantage, if you just can walk in to Cars.
However, it takes time to build her up, but sooner or later we 'll get there, where we want.
Wish you luck with your 60'
Wolf

DinoBob

06-08-2011, 01:08 AM

Thanks.

Well, I confirmed tonight that the '61 Buick front shocks are a great fit on the '60. The lower mount is perfect. The shock body is about 5/8 inch longer but this is of no consequence at all- everything still fits up very nicely.

DinoBob

06-11-2011, 10:08 PM

Pulled the front drums today. The brakes look great up front; they do not have many miles on them, nor does the hardware. It's all very clean. I am going to change the wheel cylinders as the cup boots have some dry rot on them. I am going to clean everything else up, repack the bearings, and put it all back together. I bought a rebuilt master cylinder as kits are backordered and the rebuilt was not much more than a kit.

So I will have a NOS set of Delco front shoes sitting on the shelf for many years, until I wear out the current set.

DinoBob

06-18-2011, 08:48 PM

Front brakes are all back together with a full cleanup and new hoses and wheel cylinders. Unfortunately, one of the static collectors in the hub cover was a casualty. I think it got caught on the edge of the cotter pin. I was spinning the drum and heard an awful scraping sound. I opened it up and the static collector was just mangled. I hope that this won't cause me an issue.

Steve, was the pushrod on your Dynaflow parts car's master cylinder different from the one in the 2-door? My rebuilt had a much shorter threaded rod with no "eye" for the brake pedal pivot pin. I had to swap the rod with the original (which is quite rebuildable; I just could not find a darn kit in stock anywhere).

Also, the location and thread size of the new brake light switch port are completely different. Is this a problem? Is a switch even available with a larger thread size?

I'll post pics soon.

lrlforfun

06-18-2011, 09:32 PM

OK Dino: The master on a 60 manual brakes the studs go into the firewall and the nuts attach from the inside (a royal pain for a fumble bum like myself). The power master just attaches to the booster and the nuts go on lickety split. Most sticks have manual because there's no room for the power booster. Mitch

DinoBob

06-19-2011, 09:40 AM

From what I have gathered all manual shift '60s have manual brakes. Linkage being a big factor in why a changeover would be tough. For now my confusion is the brake light switch and the fact that the port is not the same size.

telriv

06-19-2011, 10:04 AM

NAPA should have adapters in stock

DinoBob

06-19-2011, 10:17 PM

NAPA should have adapters in stock

For the brake light switch??

weim55

06-20-2011, 02:10 PM

Bob,

I'm a little puzzled on that brake light switch port. Like Tom said, NAPA should have an adapter to up or downsize. Another idea is to have a good NAPA counter guy look up the various switches they sell close to the original for your '60. I'd bet you can get a switch to match the port size of the new master cylinder. A minor problem with my conversion to the dual master was the original brake light switch wiring is too short now. I'll have to splice in some longer wires to reach the switch. I can't comment on the power brake master on my Invicta parts car as I haven't taken apart any part of the system.

BigDaddyCool

06-24-2011, 02:06 PM

I dont mean to butt in on your thread, but I do have a question. I have a 58 buick special with a factory three speed. I too have torque ball problems. Is my thnking correct that the torque balls themselves are the same between manual and auto trans? The difference is in the shaft dia. at the front of the u joint? Is the rear yolk the same diameter between the two? What I am getting at is will the torque ball itself work between the two transmission types? Thanks in advance!

DinoBob

06-24-2011, 10:01 PM

I butted in on this thread as well. Sometimes I wonder if people realize that the main subject of this thread is actually two different cars. Steve and I have nearly identical '60 2-door sticks...even the same color.

The torque ball is identical between stick and automatic. The difference is in the universal joint. The front yoke of the universal on a Dynaflow is longer and has the speedometer gear pressed on. There is a picture of it on page 3 or 4 of this thread. Steve did a great job showing how he modified the Dynaflow unit. I had mine done at a machine shop.

What seems to be the problem with your torque ball? Flat spot? Damage inside? Mine was chewed up inside because the universal was destroyed from the trans running dry and spit metal shards into it. The bushing was wrecked too.

What I replaced was the torque ball, inner and outer retainer, prop shaft seal, and universal. The torque ball and inner retainer are not available new, nor is the universal. You need good used. I did luck into a NOS torque ball bushing and had it pressed in.

Let's hear more.

BigDaddyCool

06-26-2011, 07:21 AM

Mine is chewed upinside too. I thought Kanters had the u joint for those cars? Any lead on where to get another NOS torque ball bushing?

My old car is a 58 special. Runs like a top, and is rust free. Just need to get this leak taken care of and I am good to go.

Im thinkin it might be kind of rare. I havent seen or heard tell of another three speed 58 anywhere. Im sure there are some but they seem hard to find.

Now what do I need in the way of seals, and where is the best place to get them?

Thanks in advance!

DinoBob

06-26-2011, 09:03 PM

Kanter does not have this one. I checked. Twice. Nor do they rebuild it.
Wheatbelt Buick in OK had one for me. Unfortunately it was a pre-'57 joint. The '57 and later cars have two universals - one upfront and one in the rear- and they must be kept "clocked" to stay in balance. As such, they have two omitted splines on the output yoke and corresponding blind splines on the propeller shaft. I modded the propeller shaft to remove the blind splines, but I would recommend not doing so if you do not have to. It's now a lot tougher to line up universal and propeller shaft properly.

I'd call them and tell them you need one for a '57-60. Tell them about the omitted splines. Get the input yoke modded, if it's a Dynaflow universal.

You will need a propeller shaft seal and its o-ring, two new torque ball retainer O-rings (inner and outer), and a new torque ball outer retainer, which has the torque ball seal on it. I got mine from CARS in NJ.

DinoBob

06-26-2011, 09:04 PM

PS I got the bushing on Ebay. Just got lucky on that one.

DinoBob

06-28-2011, 08:51 PM

Here on Ebay we have yet another '60 LeSabre 2-door sedan w/ manual trans:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RARE-1960-Buick-LeSabre-364-V-8-4bbl-3-speed-std-/150625162656?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2311f595a0#v4-38

That's a nice one.

weim55

06-30-2011, 04:14 PM

That ebay '60 is a really neat car. Clean. The appearance option for the chrome on the drip rails and window frames is a nice addition. Wish my car had that option. The way Buick used the upper color for the two tone paint around the window frames looks lousy in my opinion. At least in the color combo on my car. I wonder what wheels and hubcaps are on the ebay car? The look alot like '55 '56 Chevy but don't think that's what they are. The condition of the paint is exactly like mine. Even faded in the same spots with more through spots on the fender tops. The paint condition on the roof looks exactly the same too. Sure wish my interior looked like that! Love that tri tone! Curious to see the number it bids to.........

Steve weim55 Colorado

bhambulldog

06-30-2011, 06:08 PM

I'm posting the pictures from the ad. So, they'll be here afthe ad is deleted;
<CENTER>http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqMOKpwE3t++O+8mBOCLu!Ck8Q~~_12.JPG</CENTER><CENTER>http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqR,!jIE3S,2d531BOCLuG2DNQ~~_12.JPG</CENTER><CENTER>http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqQOKokE33L9BkGLBOCLujht6g~~_12.JPG</CENTER><CENTER>http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqMOKjsE3syyc!PmBOCLuzhI+!~~_14.JPG</CENTER>

r0ckstarr

07-02-2011, 01:45 PM

I'm posting the pictures from the ad. So, they'll be here afthe ad is deleted

You may want to change the hosting then. Otherwise, the pics will go with the ad.

mosslack

07-04-2011, 05:15 PM

Just read the complete thread as the '60 is close to my '61 in certain aspects. I dodged the torque tube nightmare though, which is a good thing. :grin:

My '61 came from North Dakota, so it's mostly rust free, but there are places which rust no matter what as you all know. I did get some good tips on fixing things and hope to put them to good use once I get my baby back home.

@Bob: How do you plan to repair your seats as mine are very similar? Unfortunately my dash pad is also pretty much wasted and those are very expensive if you buy one from the place online which I forget the name of.

My carpet is also the salt and pepper variety, wondered if it was original or not, guess it is. It will need to be replaced as the heater core leaked very badly at some point and ruined it on the passenger side. I did secure a new heater core, but have not yet installed it.

Keep up the good work guys, really enjoyed reading your stories.:beers2:

lrlforfun

07-05-2011, 11:26 AM

OK V-8 Buick People: $7800. (if these bids are legit and not shilled) and the seller won't cut it loose, WOW.

For all the money that won't even buy this car we see several things. 56 Chev poverty caps which means it doesn't have Buick rims which means that the guide pins might have been knocked off the front drums, the roof needs paint and what ever else it needs in the flesh.....besides it's mechanical condition. I am like the customer at the slots when it comes to spending money on old cars and I know how much they always need.

In spite of the things I have mentioned.....it is a 60 Buick 2 door post, it's very clean for it's age, a stick is uncommon in a 60 Buick. One thing that hasn't affected it's value is the NO POWER STEERING.(Perhaps like Steve and Bob's cars) I had a 60 Lesabre with no power steering and it was no fun to drive at all. Add a stick and it down right becomes work. Not that I'm allergic to work, I just like to enjoy driving my old cars. This ain't an old Vette with a big engine that gives a thrill when being romped on. Do that with this silver Lesabre and the transmission becomes metal cereal. Mitch

RJBT

07-05-2011, 12:27 PM

bhambulldog

07-05-2011, 10:54 PM

Interesting you mention : "guide pins might have been knocked off the front drums"

I assume it is the nipple things (one per wheel) that are on the drums ?
I am missing them on the front of the car (I think I actually only have one or two total on the car).
They help orient the wheel when you put it on...
But what really is the purpose ? I could put the wheel any way I want as long as the bolt holes match... So why is there this nipple thing ? (and if I am missing some, am I missing out on something ?). Is there something i am not understanding and the nipples are essential ?
Pilot studs; I call them.

But what really is the purpose ?
They help orient the wheel when you put it on...

When, I reverse your statement; you have answered your own question. :TU:

When, the lug bolts are in place; the pilot stud has served its purpose. Until, the wheel is removed again.

For, being able to mount the wheels, sans pilot studs; ......... well then, Good For You!!!:grin:

Yours may have front drums not of Buick origin. Or, they may have been knocked off.:Do No: When the wheels are bolted everything is in its proper place. So, it's not something to worry over. :cool:

DinoBob

07-06-2011, 11:12 AM

In the near term, I bought a set of NORS aftermarket seat covers that are as old as the car, but in mint shape. They are what you would have bought at RAYCO or Western Auto in the '60s. Designed to look like a factory seat but not quite of the same materials quality.

I am going to patch the foam and the fabric up as best I can with various pieces of foam I have collected. Then I am going to encapsulate the seat faces by sewing a heavy brown landscape fabric into the faces of the seats. I will probably simply duct-tape the area of shredded, brittle vinyl on the top of the back seat. After that, I will carefully install the covers.

Longterm, this interior will be restored to stock spec using SMS materials for the seats. I also intend to buy a full set of door/side panels from them. That will be when my budget recovers a bit. Ultimately I plan to restore this car to very near complete factory stock, at least appearance-wise.