Binding Stock Clutch Linkage on a 70 Stage 1

[SpecialWagon65]

Ever since replacing all my linkage with Kleiner's repo parts,
it is binding in a way that is (bending)stressing the frame bracket for the z-bar. At first I thought it was this junky OPG bit,
but I have an original installed now and it is still binding- frame bracket seems too far forward
the clutch pedal pushes and twists it
so the zbar is not aligned (should be 90 to engine)
and the part that pushes the clutch fork is not moving in an arc parallel to the frame...
WHY is this bending the stock frame bracket,
any ideas what further to look for?
Its a Centerforce dual friction clutch. Supposed to have same spring pressure as a stock clutch. Is this a fantasy?


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/Wildcat65/myz-barbracketwithoriginal.jpg

:beer Need this working for Columbus!

[PaulGS]

A couple of questions:

Do you have the right Z bar? How are the bushings in the Z bar?

Do you have the right push rods top and bottom?

Are the motor mounts old or worn?

Sounds like the geometry is way off.

[SpecialWagon65]

Yes, that is the thing its all new stuff, only 500 miles on it- more than half highway miles.
Engine mounts are new. the geometry was so far off from the weak frame mount that the
rubber bushing at the clutch fork got destroyed, I replaced that with a heim joint.
Is it down to replacing brand new parts or am I missing something?
Clutch experts are saying that the centerforce uses the same spring pressure as a stock pressure plate.

1 last ??- is the 68 clutch pedal and linkage to the z-bar the same? I'm taking that clutch pedal out to check it today.

Thanks!

[Roberta]

Just sell it to me!

Got pictures?

[PaulGS]

I have a CF II clutch, pressure plate, and throw out bearing in mine - no issues.

My bet is with the Z bar and pushrod.

I believe (others can chime in) that the 68 stuff is different from the 70 stuff.

The culprit I believe is the push rod. If it is too long, then you could be overstressing the bracket.

How does the pedal effort feel?

[Roberta]

Yes, that is the thing its all new stuff, only 500 miles on it- more than half highway miles.
Engine mounts are new. the geometry was so far off from the weak frame mount that the
rubber bushing at the clutch fork got destroyed, I replaced that with a heim joint.
Is it down to replacing brand new parts or am I missing something?
Clutch experts are saying that the centerforce uses the same spring pressure as a stock pressure plate.

1 last ??- is the 68 clutch pedal and linkage to the z-bar the same? I'm taking that clutch pedal out to check it today.

Thanks!

Ted, all that stuff same '68-'70, the yoke(clutchfork) differ from the straight rod and the one with the bushing and pin, but everything else is the same.

PS I did have some weird stuff with a pressure plate that the spring fingers were not hardened correctly and it would never work right until changed it and still good years later.

[PaulGS]

Maybe the clutch disc is "tweeked" and not disengaging cleanly.

That means it takes much higher pedal pressure.

[SpecialWagon65]

Paul, you have it right- it is the geometry...

Today I looked at it again, took the pedal to zbar linkgage apart and it was difficult...kinda tight.
So I took that part out, snatched the 68 part out of the parts car and compared...very close, but when I put the 68 linkage in it went together smooth, so that was good.
Thought I had it licked, but the z bar was still at an angle where the frame side was a little forward.
So I fooled around with the frame bracket again, figured if I elongated the forward hole I could rotate it in and back to line it up. Did that,
put it back together and I think zbar is now too far in towards the block- the zbar has a bunch of play @ the block ball stud, like its in too far- is this possible or is the bore of the zbar constant? Or is it stepped, like there is a bushing in there?
I had to try it a little, it engages well but the linkage action is not crisp at all. :laugh:

[Roberta]

Paul, you have it right- it is the geometry...

Today I looked at it again, took the pedal to zbar linkgage apart and it was difficult...kinda tight.
So I took that part out, snatched the 68 part out of the parts car and compared...very close, but when I put the 68 linkage in it went together smooth, so that was good.
Thought I had it licked, but the z bar was still at an angle where the frame side was a little forward.
So I fooled around with the frame bracket again, figured if I elongated the forward hole I could rotate it in and back to line it up. Did that,
put it back together and I think zbar is now too far in towards the block- the zbar has a bunch of play @ the block ball stud, like its in too far- is this possible or is the bore of the zbar constant? Or is it stepped, like there is a bushing in there?
I had to try it a little, it engages well but the linkage action is not crisp at all. :laugh:

Just tell me how much? $500?

[PaulGS]

If the Z bar is really warn internally, it could be an issue.

How does the block stud look?

Do you have another Z bar to try? Yours could be bent.

[greg davis]

There is more than one frame bracket in the world. There are two different angles on the Z-bar attachment also I have seen.

Lets verify the frame bolt to Z-bar attachment point to make sure it is not positioned to far forward or backward.

I am in a temporary office space at the moment so all my Buick reference materials are packed away.

[buickfan]

theres a guy on here that can tell you the exact measurements of all the rods, is your clutch fork the correct one with the fork at the end and adjustable, or the incorrect on you can get online that has the divot? I can tell you that the wrong rods throws a lot of things off...the problem is that the rods for the 350 4 speed and the clutch fork are wrong on the 455, and lot's of times people try to combine the two.

Mike

[SpecialWagon65]

Ever since replacing all my linkage with Kleiner's repo parts,
it is binding in a way that is (bending)stressing the frame bracket for the z-bar. At first I thought it was this junky OPG bit,
but I have an original installed now and it is still binding- frame bracket seems too far forward
the clutch pedal pushes and twists it
so the zbar is not aligned (should be 90 to engine)
and the part that pushes the clutch fork is not moving in an arc parallel to the frame...
WHY is this bending the stock frame bracket,
any ideas what further to look for?
Its a Centerforce dual friction clutch. Supposed to have same spring pressure as a stock clutch. Is this a fantasy?


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/Wildcat65/myz-barbracketwithoriginal.jpg

:beer Need this working for Columbus!
Roberta, I could not let it go so dear...I can't afford to pay you the amount it would be worth to take it off my hands!

Paul- I have to pull the zbar out again. I checked the small block z-bar and a chevy z bar and there was no ID "step" like I was thinking, so it may be that the ball is worn. I cannot imagine the inside of the zbar wearing that much after only 500 miles, but I will also check that ID.

Greg- I now have a bracket like on the left, replaced the junk on the right.

Mike, when I got the car ('98) it had the small block linkage- that was the first thing I worked on, even back then the clutch fork with the clevis was hard to find! Good point though, got to have coordinated parts.

Thanks!

[SpecialWagon65]

Now I'm really distressed,
replaced block ball stud,
its back to where I was a year ago.
Makes me think I should give up on the BBB 4-speed.
Whata POS :Dou::Dou:

[jj455]

Ted, Make slides like a sled on ice.I can't tell you what's wrong. However I'll have my 4 speed down to bpg. We can jack it up and take some measurements and see what's different. Jim

[Roberta]

Now I'm really distressed,
replaced block ball stud,
its back to where I was a year ago.
Makes me think I should give up on the BBB 4-speed.
Whata POS :Dou::Dou:

I'll trade you 2 '66 wildcats and all the nailhead and wildcat stuff in the dungeon for it! and then some!

[Tom Rix]

Ted,

I just restored a 70 GS 455 4 speed car and used the clutch and parts you are using. However, the first rod (from pedal to Z bar) that I got from Dave was slightly tweaked and would rub on the cowl as it went through the boot. Caused a lot of binding. He replaced it and all works well now.

You can call me if you have any questions.

Tom 825-675-3188

[SpecialWagon65]

BIG THANKS to Nick @ Ivyland, James Weinman, Chris Pollack, John Schmidt & his trailer, Budweiser and a little rain we (Nick & James) wrenched on the trans and clutch junk, Nick saw the throwout bearing; it was the medium one and we needed the tall one. Got it Sat morning, waited for our turn in the trailer, pulled the trannie and got the new TOB in.
Now it just needs minor tweeekin, but the feeling like the frame was bending under my foot is gone...I think just one more tweek of the z bar angle and it will rock. So Thanks again all involved, I owe you! :laugh:
Now

[cjp69]

BIG THANKS to Nick @ Ivyland, James Weinman, Chris Pollack, John Schmidt & his trailer, Budweiser and a little rain we (Nick & James) wrenched on the trans and clutch junk, Nick saw the throwout bearing; it was the medium one and we needed the tall one. Got it Sat morning, waited for our turn in the trailer, pulled the trannie and got the new TOB in.
Now it just needs minor tweeekin, but the feeling like the frame was bending under my foot is gone...I think just one more tweek of the z bar angle and it will rock. So Thanks again all involved, I owe you! :laugh:
Now

It was amazing to watch James and Nick dive right into this thing. Al Yeager and Marco stopped by too, as did Bruce Hunter as I recall. HUGW Thanks to Jim Schmidt for the use of his car lift on Friday and Saturday.

All I did was takepictures, run and get tools, and keep the Bud Lime coming!

[kick71]

That is awesome.Way to go guys.

[1972 Stage 1]

Thanks to Ted for loaning his 4 speed Stage 1 to me and Chris to drive around during the reunion weekend! :3gears:

How many guys do you know that would deliver a car like this to a hotel and leave the keys at the desk for a couple of guys to use for the weekend? What a great gesture, not to mention someone with a lot of trust! :TU:

It was a pleasure to help with the clutch. How did the car do on the way home?

[Marco]

...All I did was takepictures, run and get tools, and keep the Bud Lime coming!

A mighty important job :Smarty:


Thanks to Ted for loaning his 4 speed Stage 1 to me and Chris to drive around during the reunion weekend! :3gears:

How many guys do you know that would deliver a car like this to a hotel and leave the keys at the desk for a couple of guys to use for the weekend? What a great gesture, not to mention someone with a lot of trust! :TU:

It was a pleasure to help with the clutch. How did the car do on the way home?

Ted is one cool dude. :beer

[Clarkie]

BIG THANKS to Nick @ Ivyland, James Weinman, Chris Pollack, John Schmidt & his trailer, Budweiser and a little rain we (Nick & James) wrenched on the trans and clutch junk, Nick saw the throwout bearing; it was the medium one and we needed the tall one. Got it Sat morning, waited for our turn in the trailer, pulled the trannie and got the new TOB in.
Now it just needs minor tweeekin, but the feeling like the frame was bending under my foot is gone...I think just one more tweek of the z bar angle and it will rock. So Thanks again all involved, I owe you! :laugh:
Now

I am having a similar issue with my '72 GS with a 455 and a 4-speed. You mentioned the throwout bearing being the "tall one." What throwout bearing was used so I can get the correct one? I'm sorry to be calling up an old thread, but your situation is very similar to mine (including the binding and feeling like the frame is bending under my foot). I will be and currently am using a Centeforce Dual Friction clutch. Any help you can give me is appreciated.