525 CI shortblock pics

[Jim Weise]

Putting one together today, though I might post a few of the many pics we always take during an engine build, for your viewing pleasure..

Even to a guy like me, who has boxes and boxes of SRP pistons and TA/Crower Sportsman and Billet rods on the shelf, this is some different stuff..

Moldex Billet crank 4.400 stroke

GRP aluminum Rods 6.995 length

1.400 compression distance JE pistons

And a block girdled block, with all kinds of clearance notches ground in it.. boy, there is some fun for ya'....

JW

[Jim Weise]

Notice the girdle is not on there... because it's an older version, which required a whole bunch of "clearancing".

I hope we are done with that proceedure, I will know shortly, as the final mockup is under way now.

[Jim Weise]

Rods, after final size measurment, before coating the bearings.

[Jim Weise]

Now there is a short piston for 'ya..

525 JE sitting next to a 464 SRP

[Jim Weise]

and the block saving aluminum rods...

[11SecondGS]

very cool:bglasses:

[Nitro71455]

That is very NICE Jim. Just curious as to why the alum rods are block savers? Also, don't alum rods have the tendancy to strech more than steel rods?

[oPh]

Hard to beat a set of GRP's :grin:

Jim, Do you have a gramweight on the 6.995's? 2.1" rod journal?
THX!

Roger

[Jim Weise]

Rich..

Yes, Aluminum rods certainly do have a service life. But the lighter the reciprocating assembly, the less stress you put into the cylinder block, at a given rpm. The engine also revs faster.

I might not put aluminum rods in a street motor, but in a motor like this one, it will take several years before the rods need to be replaced. We will mesure deck height very accurately, during assembly here, and then check it ever 200 passes or so. As soon as the deck heights start to change, it's time for new rods.

Roger.. Static weight of the 6.995 GRP rod is 643g -- a TA/Crower forged rod at 6.600 length is 780g, and a billet at that length is 787g. This is a 2.200 BBC rod journal size, that uses doweled rod bearings (at $10 a pop..)

Pistons, less pin, are a mere 530 G -- even the lightest 464 piston is 640ish..

JW

[70 gsconvt]

So, I you can tell me none of your business, what does a short block like this cost?

[Jim Weise]

Crank -- 2895.00

Rods- $950

Pistons- $800

Block work is typically around a G on any 455.. maybe a bit more.

This crank is internally balanced.. lots of holes drilled in it.. read that labor time.. so it's a spendy balance job.

By the time all is said and done, it's assembled, has all the rest of the goodies in and with it.. with a roller cam/lifters..

An easy 10K+

Put the $4 k heads on it, and all the rest of the goodies, it's how a motor like this goes for 15-18K. Depending on if you build it, or somebody else does.

Now, a new block would be awesome.. but add at least $2-3 k to that figure, once the cost differences are figured..

JW

[Jim Weise]

and for that money you get this...

Saying this is a "nice piece" is like saying the empire state building is "kinda tall"

wow...

All 90 lbs of it... but that's ok.. rotating weight.. no where near as deadly as reciprocating weight..

And.. after a balance job, off to the crank shop to straighten and polish it.. it rotates better in the block, with clearances just a tenth or two on either side of .003, than I have seen any Buick crank spin..

[Jim Weise]

The spin test was excellent..

[Jim Weise]

a mere 28 inch pounds to turn the crank (all 90 lbs of it) with just a little 30wt on the bearings, and everything all torqued up. This is without the bearing coating.. it will get better, but so far, it's the best I have ever seen a crank spin in a BBB.. 35 inch pounds is not at all uncommon, for something with a little bigger clearances, and everything nice and straight. Tighter clearance street motors typically come in at 38-42 inch pounds..

Anything more than 50 in/lbs, and we start looking for issues. And they can never spin "notchy".. or "bindy".

Big factor in making HP here.. crank must spin freely. If it spins this nice now, once all the bearings get worn in, it will spin real easily.

[Jim Weise]

I knew that mark was on the girdle for a reason...

Welll.. I guess this is test fit number 3, not the final..

A couple of days went by from the time I dropped in the crank, and a pair of rods and pistons, for the initial clearance setup, and marking of the block and girdle.

I looked at that mark, near the pan stud last night.. and thought.. nah.. number 8 will clear..

I think I was just tired of grinding.. and talked myself into it.

:Dou:

JW

[70 gsconvt]

OK, so I've seen your charts and what $10-12k will get you horsepower-wise, what kind of hp numbers will this $18k engine make? Is this an 8000 rpm engine?

I'm not looking to nail anyone down, just a rough guess.

[SmittyDawg]

Jim Weise said:and for that money you get this...

Saying this is a "nice piece" is like saying the empire state building is "kinda tall"

wow...

All 90 lbs of it... but that's ok.. rotating weight.. no where near as deadly as reciprocating weight..

And.. after a balance job, off to the crank shop to straighten and polish it.. it rotates better in the block, with clearances just a tenth or two on either side of .003, than I have seen any Buick crank spin..

Kinda stinks that they only give you one piston with that crank and rods!:laugh:

[TXGS]

The cool thing is that one piston makes that much hp. buicks are cool!:Brow:

[Jim Weise]

70 gsconvt said:OK, so I've seen your charts and what $10-12k will get you horsepower-wise, what kind of hp numbers will this $18k engine make? Is this an 8000 rpm engine?

I'm not looking to nail anyone down, just a rough guess.


Depends on how it is equipt..

The one in the picture is very similar to Doug Hecker's setup, which comes in at around 825 HP, if I recall correctly.

That's naturally aspirated, single 4 cast intake manifold.

For 18K, you can get into the dual dommie tunnel rams, and with all the goodies and the right setup, you can go naturally aspirated well into the 900 HP range.

Blowers, Turbo's N20.. and then lots more, but those motors are more expensive yet..

Let's not forget, those screaming V-6's typcially are 30-40K a piece.

JW

[Bobb Makley]

Jim

Is that 28 pounds with no rods and pistons? It threw me off when I saw the picture in the background with no rods and pistons. I agree the easier it turns over the power it will make. The GSE motor I put in my car this year with rods pistons and seal took 24 pounds to rotate that is the easiest I have ever had one turn over. The rings were the big thing I used a light pressure set since I was going to run a vacuum pump. Bruce Kent was really pushing me to go that route but I was a little nervous about engine smoke but after it all sealed up it was cool :bglasses: .

We sent one of our cranks to a place out near you I think and they took 14 pounds out of it. It is still a pig but much better than it was. They did a beautiful job with it I must say. I will ask Geof were it was done and let you know for the future. Price was not bad either.

[70 gsconvt]

WOW!! What's that engine going in????

[Jim Weise]

Bobb...

Crank only... and 28 INCH pounds..

I don't check them with the shortblock assembled, due to the fact I use a thicker extreme pressure pre-lube on the bearings when they go together for good.. so that throws things off a little, compared to those folks who just put them together with 30 wt.

Yes, Rings make a huge difference on turning torque with the shortblock together, and since this is a vacuum pump engine, it will have low tension rings.


Phil,

This is the latest incarnation of George Sweesy's race motor.. we went to this, when his 494 flexed the crank at 750 HP, and started to hurt #4 main bearing.

This is going into his Tube chassis '72 GS, we are just about finished with in the shop now. You have seen pics of that, and it was my avatar for a while.

He had a lot of runs on that crank/rotating assembly, and decided it was time to go away from the 2" rod journal of a 494 deal, and get the extra cubes while we were at it.

JW

[Bobb Makley]

Jim

Yea you and I were on different wave links. I was talking foot pounds you were inch. The ring people were telling us that if you can get your engine down under 20 foot pounds as a short block there were so good pony's there so that is what I went for just missed it by a little. That mill sure does look nice though.

[opeltwinturbo]

Let's not forget, those screaming V-6's typcially are 30-40K a piece.

AMEN!! :Brow: :Brow:

[Staged70Lark]

Jim,

That engine should make some nice power. Are the rings in those JE pistons .063 or .040? If they are .063 and .185 wide, I have heard of guys taking that ring and having it narrowed for less cylinder wall tension. I believe they take about .040 off the width of the ring to do this.

Also... 2.200 (stroke divided by 2) + 1.4 pin height + 6.695= 10.595. With a deck height of 10.600 that would make the piston .005 in the hole. Was this block checked for square to make sure you dont have a piston out of the bore? Also... with those aluminum rods I hope your running a .060 gasket to allow for piston to cylinder head clearance.

Was there a reason to go with a 4.400 stroke over the 4.500?

With all of you guys stepping up to the plate my little 464 juast aint gonna cut it anymore. Damn I hate it when I have to spend more $$$$$... Good Luck Jim... that sure looks nice!

[Mike T]

Crank -- 2895.00

Rods- $950

Pistons- $800

Block work is typically around a G on any 455.. maybe a bit more.


Going 9.90 in the quarter mile?

PRICELESS

Mike T

[stagetwo65]

Hey Jim, you were pretty close on my numbers. 830 hp @ 6500 rpm and 730 lbs ft. of TQ @ 5300. BTW, why the need for all the balance holes? I'm almost positive my crank had NONE. The rod and piston weights were factored in when I ordered the crank from T/A and Moldex machined the counter-weights to balance it. In other words, in my case we had the weights before we had the crank. Was the balance job needed because the crank came second and you already had rods and pistons for George's motor? Just wondering! Later, Doug.

[Jim Weise]

SmittyDawg said:Kinda stinks that they only give you one piston with that crank and rods!:laugh:


Nah.. they give you a little box of engine gremlins, that keep switching that one piston to the hole that's about to fire....

Not really sure how that works.. but hey, we will go with it..

:laugh:

[Jim Weise]

Staged70Lark said:Jim,

That engine should make some nice power. Are the rings in those JE pistons .063 or .040? If they are .063 and .185 wide, I have heard of guys taking that ring and having it narrowed for less cylinder wall tension. I believe they take about .040 off the width of the ring to do this.

Also... 2.200 (stroke divided by 2) + 1.4 pin height + 6.695= 10.595. With a deck height of 10.600 that would make the piston .005 in the hole. Was this block checked for square to make sure you dont have a piston out of the bore? Also... with those aluminum rods I hope your running a .060 gasket to allow for piston to cylinder head clearance.

Was there a reason to go with a 4.400 stroke over the 4.500?

With all of you guys stepping up to the plate my little 464 juast aint gonna cut it anymore. Damn I hate it when I have to spend more $$$$$... Good Luck Jim... that sure looks nice!



John,

Every piston is dead nuts at .002 in the hole. We went with .050 head gaskets, even though I was pretty sure we could get away with .040's.. we wont be turning this motor real tight, and that should keep the rod stretch to a minimum. I am planning on no more than .010 stretch at speed, but we allowed .015, with a safety margin of .035.

This car as a T-400 in it, so it won't have to spin real hard on the other end.. due to the need for deeper gearing at the starting line, with a 2-speed.

Crank was available when we needed it, along with the pistons and rods, and I thought the alum rods would be a nice way to go.. and they just happened to be available.

.063 rings.. we are not gonna fuss with them, but I am sure we could squeeze out a few more ponies with thining the rings, but possibly at the expense of ring life. Especially the top compression ring, which is "in the heat". We are using low tension rings, as this is a vacuum pump motor. Also, I am no fan of ring spacers..


Doug..

Yes, had we planned this combo from the get-go, Moldex would have bobbed the crank properly.

But from the time we decided to upgrade, till the time the parts were sitting on the bench in the shop... was 5 days.. :eek2:

Not a year, like some folks wait for a Moldex crank..

I just picked up the phone, and said.."What do you got for me.. bud.."

Who says it doesn't pay to know "Someone".. :Brow:



Hey look.. I found the other 7 pistons.. assembled and ready to go into the motor, as soon as I finish hanging the crank for the final time..

:laugh:

[69GS400s]

Droooool

Jim - can i set up a employee distribution plan where i work so a portion of my paycheck goes into a fund for a motor like that ??


......wait - I want the motor thats made out of recycled Mt. Dew Cans !! The Bright Green should even out do the Yeller' one you did.

did I say DROOOL

[gs455]

is a block girdle something that a machine shop must do.

[gs455]

is a block girdle something that a machine shop must do.

[Smartin]

GS455,

Since you're a machinist, shouldn't you know the answer to that question??:laugh: :laugh:

I think there is some work needed to be done to a girdle to get it to fit right. It is not a bolt on item.

[gs455]

i am but i have never seen the block girdle and all our machines are for production and can not be used for this kind of work. i make the parts the assembley guy put them together and ship the out so there is no time for gov. work .i just wondered if i could use tools i have at home could do it.

[grant455gs]

i just wondered if i could use tools i have at home could do it.

Um, I hope not!:moonu: Otherwise, I want your garage/shop!!:jd:

[tommieboy]

gs455 said:i am but i have never seen the block girdle and all our machines are for production and can not be used for this kind of work. i make the parts the assembley guy put them together and ship the out so there is no time for gov. work .i just wondered if i could use tools i have at home could do it.

Instructions for block girdle installation:

http://www.taperformance.com/block1.htm

[434 olds]

Jim, how many runs do you think you`ll get out of the rods. I dont understand what you mean by the deck height changing. How come moldex didnt make the crank with your bob weight numbers. With that many holes drilled in the crank, your balance job is out the window. It should have been lathed balanced, cut down the counter weights. ( make more power with a lighter crank, less rotating mass) Also, why not go with a 7.250 long rod and a 1.150 compression height. Just wondering.

[Jim Weise]

Olds..

The crank was not bought with the combo in mind.. it was an afterthought... This motor was together with steel rods, and a cast crank, in a 494 ci combo. at 750 hp, we flexed the #5 rod journal (283 chev size) :eek2: and it started to eat a main.. common problem with that combo, in high HP applications. Some do it, some don't..

So we stepped up to the Billet crank, and it was a "Whatcha got sitting on the shelf" call to TA that got the GRP rods, JE pistons and crank on my workbench in 5 days.. not the year that some folks have waited for these parts..

The holes in the front and rear counterweights are the balance holes.. The crank is internally balanced, and on the nuts..

I assume you think I'm whittleing holes in it, to make it just lighter???

ahhh.. ya... oooook...

Doubt full that we could see any honest HP gain from lathing the counterweights, vs drilling holes to balance... remember, we are talking a 6500 rpm motor here.

The combo worked out perfectly for the deck height we already had, with an O-ring block.

I know the arguments on rod length vs cylinder wall loading, but I will tell you one thing for sure.. with these motors, the shorter the piston skirt gets, the more of a problem cylinder wall scuffing becomes. We open up the piston/wall pretty good on these things, and coat the piston skirts.. this was done after the pics were taken, as that was a layout of the parts for a trial assembly.

I also believe in the David Reher theory of Rod length.. "just hook the crank to the pistons, with the rods, whatever length that takes, within reason"..

Rods should be good for 350 passes or so.. and for this guy, that's maybe 7-10 years. So that's not really an issue, and an aluminum rod will allow the engine to rev faster, and produces less strain on the block, due to it's lighter weight.

That's a good thing for a 800+ HP stock blocked BBB.

When aluminum rods stretch, and don't "come back" to their original size, they need to be replaced. This will show up in an increase........ or decrease ............in deck height. I have seen them go both ways.

JW

[td99]

jim do you expect to be putting any turboed 455's together when the new block is released? that'd be awsome:Brow:

[Jim Weise]

Luv too...

As with any motor build.. it's a matter of someone stepping up and wanting one.

We have a pretty good turbo background to call upon here, as both Jack Penzemus and Bob Peterson are personal friend of mine, and both are "heavy hitters" on the TR scene.

JW

[td99]

i think its only a matter of time and $ :laugh: With the right car i think some 6 sec time slips wouldn't be so far off

[Jim Weise]

For those of you interested...

We dynoed this motor this morning..

804 HP @ 6200 Rpm

727 TQ @ 5100 Rpm

Torque average.. from 4500 to 6300 rpm

704.6 ... :eek2:




.... thru the mufflers...

That"ll work... :Brow:

Now I can put it in that Tube frame wonder and go racing..

JW

[Staged70Lark]

Jim,


Those are some nice HP and TQ numbers and should but that Buick firmly into the 8s!!!!!

We recently found a cracked #5 cylinder in our engine and may be building a new one. Hopefully we can come up with some HP to put ours in the 8s.

Good Job!!

[Jim Weise]

Thanks John..

It was a long road, but we are very happy with the results of all this work..



Very happy with how it finally wrung out, but it was a long road. The addition of a custom built tube car aluminum oil pan from SRE fabrication helped, as well as the latest roller lifters from TA.

I would be remiss not to thank those who lent tech support, or at least a ear to bounce ideas off of, during this project.

They are:

Mike Tomaszewski
Scotty Gudagano
Steve Renyolds (SRE FAB)
Doug Hecker


JW

[SmittyDawg]

WOO-HOO!!!:TU: :bglasses: :beer

[grant455gs]

If I fly over, can I take it for a test drive?:Brow:

[stagetwo65]

WAY TO GO JIM!! That beast oughtta FLY! :TU:

[Jim Weise]

Thanks Doug..

She is getting ready to go..!

[Smartin]

Wow! The car's coming together nicely:TU: Anxious??:Brow: :Brow:

[Jim Weise]

Nah..

I like to work on Sunday nights.. on Holiday weekends..

NOT..

Yes, very anxious.. I don't see much keeping us from the track next weekend.

Been working on this one for quite some time now, between other projects, and "it's time has come".

[68 LeSabre 4dr]

It looks Awesome ! It's saying " Race me !" Great job ! :TU:

Looking forward to hearing the times on this one !:laugh: :laugh: :beer


P/S - What would ya guy's do with a day off anyway's ?:Do No: :laugh::eek2:

[dryskip]

Don't suppose there is any chance you will bring that to Vegas in October?:ball:

[Jim Weise]

That would be up to it's owner Skip, but I will mention it to him.

JW

[BillMah52]

So who is going to be the first to take her down the 1/4?
Are you gonna restripe the new parking lot first to test the bite?

[Jim Weise]

Bill,

George is the owner/driver, although me driving has been discussed in the past.. but I have to get a NHRA lisc before that will happen (we are pretty sure it will go faster than 9.99.. :Brow:

No, there will be no parking lot burnouts.. I did that once in one of our cars, and ripped a $250 slick... we will be working hard to get this thing to the track this coming Thursday night. With having to re-hang the front one piece steel clip, and re-do the hood, it will be all we can do to get it there. Plenty of late nights and early mornings this week.

yes... I am working today..


JW

[BillMah52]

How bout a guess?
8.93 @ 151.16 right out of the wrapper.
Now THAT would make the "65 guy's" roids tingle!!!
I envy George. After spending the day at E-town with Rick, John & Jr., Doug, John S., Alan W., Jeff Yardley, Bill Lagna, and a whole slew of other folks from the club and the other club(good chapter)
Boy do I miss it. I stopped racing when my daughter was born in '84. Much has changed in 19 years.
You may be building one for me just like it. But I won't need mine till next season. Take a day off.
Now where did I hide that extra 100K I had layin' around?

[Jim Weise]

Ah.. they ain't that expensive..

You migh have enough left over to pick up a decent GS street driver from that 100K..

George's car is about 75K lock, stock and barrel. But you better figure a year to build it, and right now, we couldn't even start one till late this winter. Up to our eyeballs in work right now.. but schedules do change, and not everything that is scheduled for the shop this winter is a "done deal".

Not cheap.. but the old saying goes.. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?

I won't even guess at ET's.. The computer says 8.60's at 153.. but I don't race computers, dyno's or wishes..

Lots of things have to happen right (including the weather, and track) for a nearly 3000 lbs brick nosed GS to do that.

We will find out this weekend... and I am sure later on this thing will get a glass front end and doors, and the correct forward facing hood scoop, which should help it's times. But we kinda blew the budget (and then some) rebuilding this entire car.. and upping to a 525.. that was never in the original plans for this thing.

JW

[Jim Weise]

68LESABRE4DR said:It looks Awesome ! It's saying " Race me !" Great job ! :TU:

Looking forward to hearing the times on this one !:laugh: :laugh: :beer


P/S - What would ya guy's do with a day off anyway's ?:Do No: :laugh::eek2:

Thanks Bruce..

Day off???

What's that?

JW

[BillMah52]

Oh I know all too well!!
In 30 something years I can count on one hand how many jobs I did according to original detail. Those were probably the ONLY ones that were within budget.
So lets see. 55k for a complete tubbed 10 sec. race car.
Add 10k per second for shaved ET.
NEW alum. T/E heads, alum. block plus a spare.
100K!!! No Problem!!!
:Dou:

[434 olds]

Jim, good luck at the track. BTW, what does the car weigh with the driver in it, what trans are you using and whats the gear ratio of the rear end.

[opeltwinturbo]

JW: Morocco is only two weeks away. How about bringing that beast down for a Buick debut. Then you will be all set for Las Vegas.

[GRNDNL]

opeltwinturbo said:JW: Morocco is only two weeks away. How about bringing that beast down for a Buick debut. Then you will be all set for Las Vegas.

That would give me a reason to drag my car to Morocco also, I've got a Switch Pitch tranny I need fixed, you could pick it up, sounds like a business trip to me..........How about it Jim?...:Do No:

[Jim Weise]

Yep, Morroco is in the plans, as long as all goes well this weekend, and I don't anticipate any problems. But this is basically an all new car, from stem to stern, so you racers know how that goes.

Bring that trans along Keith.. I will let you know if for some reason I won't be there.

434--

Looks like it will be 2970 with the driver, it has a TH 400 with 2.48 low, and 4.10 rear gears.

And 727 ft lbs of torque at 5100 rpm.. and has a converter that stalled at 4800 with 650 ft lbs, with this car at 3160 lbs.

So we will see how it works now, it may drive right thru this converter.

Won't surprise me, I think this may be the only part George has very little money in... all we did was inspect it, and add 1/4 inch to the snout and mounting pads to make up for the mid plate.

JW

[434 olds]

Jim, sounds like it should run 9.0`s. Good luck with it. Keep everyone posted on your performance.

[SmittyDawg]

Ahhhhhh....the ol' crystal ball says George breaks into the 8's.....!

[stagetwo65]

MY crystal ball tells me he breaks into the 8s too!........after some adjustments, some aggravations, and a few (??) trips to the track for testing and tuning. You guys are heading where I've just come from, and it ain't been a bad ride! Best thing you got goin' for you to succeed sooner is the weather. I got ready to fly last Spring, and no sooner did I get 'er ironed out, then summer arrived with a vengeance! Heat, Rain, Heat, Rain...all stinkin' summer long. I'm just a little worried that you guys are gonna run out of Fall weather before you get staightened out. I've heard Winter comes early and often up your way. You KNOW I'm gonna wanna match race that car at the BPG Nats next year, right? JW, I'll think positive thoughts for your success this weekend. Good Luck! :TU:

[opeltwinturbo]

May drive through the converter..... JW.


Bring an extra one. If it is wrong we can put it on the rack and swap it out in no time. Better yet, Bucy can swap it out in no time.

See you Friday night.:laugh: :laugh: