231 to 350 swap (Help!)

[noraarm]

im seriously inquiring in swapping my baby 231 for a buick 350 but i have some questions i need help on. my car is a 1978 skylark stock 231 w/ auto trans

1) does it matter what rear end i have? not 100% what that means exactly

2) will my transmission need to be changed as well from what it is now? (not 100% about what trans it has)

3) i remember someone telling me that only a radiator hose needs to be changed from a 231 to 350 but is that correct?

4) on a difficulty scale from 1-10 how hard would this be? i dont have a time limit and i can follow instructions well.

Added

5) if i get a 350 with a 2 barrel intake can i use the carb off my 231 on it?

thanks in advance guys!

[bob k. mando]

1) does it matter what rear end i have? not 100% what that means exactly

in this case, i think you would be referring to the ring/pinion gear set your housing uses, both size and ratio.

larger ring gear sets are stronger ( 8.5" better than 8.25" ) . higher numerical ( shorter ) ratio gear sets get you off the line faster but will cost fuel mileage for cruising and may make your highway rpm uncomfortably high.

a 200r4 trans would be a good choice for this car, especially if you want to move to a shorter ( 3.73? ) rear gear.


2) will my transmission need to be changed as well from what it is now? (not 100% about what trans it has)

the Buick 350 will bolt up in place of your 231. be sure not to use a Chevy 350, that will have a different bell housing.



4) on a difficulty scale from 1-10 how hard would this be? i dont have a time limit and i can follow instructions well.

the 231 is a SBB 300ci v8 with two cylinders knocked off and the 350 bore ( the second variation of the Buick v6 was 225ci or 6/8*300 ). the 350 is also a SBB but it has a taller deck and is also necessarily longer than the v6. so there may be some minor fitment issues around the steering shaft or with headers or the fan shroud but all of the fuel lines/electrical/starter/etc should route to the same places.

[noraarm]

1) does it matter what rear end i have? not 100% what that means exactly

in this case, i think you would be referring to the ring/pinion gear set your housing uses, both size and ratio.

larger ring gear sets are stronger ( 8.5" better than 8.25" ) . higher numerical ( shorter ) ratio gear sets get you off the line faster but will cost fuel mileage for cruising and may make your highway rpm uncomfortably high.

a 200r4 trans would be a good choice for this car, especially if you want to move to a shorter ( 3.73? ) rear gear.


will the one i have be strong enough for the power of a 350? not 100% what i have, is there a way i can tell? i have a manual for my car will it tell me in there?

[David G]

I believe the Buick 350 was an available optional engine for your car, which may simplify the installation.

[TheSilverBuick]

I'm the one that likely said you'd only have to change out the radiator hoses, and I stand by that. My 455 was practically a drop in, only I had to change the metal frame pads, which you would not have to for the 350. I had to use longer v-belts and I'm 90% sure you would not have to. The wiring was more than adequately long for the 455, the 350 should fit easily, same plugs, same connections to the HEI and sensors. You'll have to either get a new HEI or change out the reluctor and pickup coil in your 231's (that's what I did for the 455).

What ever trans you have it will bolt up to the Buick 350 with zero issues. If you have a TH200 (how certain are you that it's a TH350?), a 2004r trans bolts right into place of TH200 (because it should have a long tail shaft). It was the first mod I did to my Skyark, TH200 to 2004r, I didn't even modify the drive shaft.

The rear axle should be a 7.5". My '77's was with 3.23 gears, but your's could easily be 3.08's. In any case, the 7.5", if currently healthy, should be plenty strong for anything but the most radical 350 build or turbo application. I abused mine for ~10 months with a 455, with no issues, though I was concerned about it. Stepping up to an 8.5" wouldn't hurt.

As for the 2bbl carb, it will bolt on, but the jetting/etc might not be right. And in my experience a properly tuned Q-jet will do better than those rochester dual jet's. Get a 4bbl intake if you can, you'll be happy with the power and mpg's.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with ten being the easiest, it's an 11, plug and play.

[noraarm]

I'm the one that likely said you'd only have to change out the radiator hoses, and I stand by that. My 455 was practically a drop in, only I had to change the metal frame pads, which you would not have to for the 350. I had to use longer v-belts and I'm 90% sure you would not have to. The wiring was more than adequately long for the 455, the 350 should fit easily, same plugs, same connections to the HEI and sensors. You'll have to either get a new HEI or change out the reluctor and pickup coil in your 231's (that's what I did for the 455).

What ever trans you have it will bolt up to the Buick 350 with zero issues. If you have a TH200 (how certain are you that it's a TH350?), a 2004r trans bolts right into place of TH200 (because it should have a long tail shaft). It was the first mod I did to my Skyark, TH200 to 2004r, I didn't even modify the drive shaft.

The rear axle should be a 7.5". My '77's was with 3.23 gears, but your's could easily be 3.08's. In any case, the 7.5", if currently healthy, should be plenty strong for anything but the most radical 350 build or turbo application. I abused mine for ~10 months with a 455, with no issues, though I was concerned about it. Stepping up to an 8.5" wouldn't hurt.

As for the 2bbl carb, it will bolt on, but the jetting/etc might not be right. And in my experience a properly tuned Q-jet will do better than those rochester dual jet's. Get a 4bbl intake if you can, you'll be happy with the power and mpg's.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with ten being the easiest, it's an 11, plug and play.

I have no idea about anything about my transmission..

also about timing? i have no idea what it is or if i need to do it when i ut a 350 in...

[speedtigger]

I would think that transmission and rear end would be fine for a stock 350. Dont use the carb off of your v-6. Use the correct carb for the 350. I would be very surprised if you do not have to change the fan shroud. I would also make sure the radiator is up to the task. Other than that, I would research the motor mounts.

[noraarm]

I would think that transmission and rear end would be fine for a stock 350. Dont use the carb off of your v-6. Use the correct carb for the 350. I would be very surprised if you do not have to change the fan shroud. I would also make sure the radiator is up to the task. Other than that, I would research the motor mounts.

i know the fan shroud will have to be changed i could probably just hack saw it if i cant find one locally.

[TheSilverBuick]

Ha! The fan shroud does not in fact need to be changed! There are two staples that hold the extension on the shroud. Remove the staples and the extension comes right off and the 350 will put the fan neatly in the middle of the shroud.

Buick 350 motor mounts are identical to Buick 231 motor mounts.

Your picture from your thread.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b255/Aaronisbest/DSCN2436.jpg

[speedtigger]

Ha! The fan shroud does not in fact need to be changed! There are two staples that hold the extension on the shroud. Remove the staples and the extension comes right off and the 350 will put the fan neatly in the middle of the shroud.

Buick 350 motor mounts are identical to Buick 231 motor mounts.

Sounds like the 231 is just a temporary place holder until the 350 is installed. :TU:

[TheSilverBuick]

This is my car with a completely stock Buick 455 in it. That is the stock 231 fan shroud.

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/l_13c65f2b700df888a39f9c5b4686fc12.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/81/l_a935091304d662482966055c421866f0.jpg

[jeff0547]

Maybe this will help. These are pics of the pans of GM automatics (bottom of the transmission).

(1) Print this page.
(2) Crawl under your car and locate the transmission.
(3) Compare these pics to what you see.


This is what I do to indentify GM auto's.:Do No:



http://www.nastyz28.com/pictures/transpan.gif

[noraarm]

Maybe this will help. These are pics of the pans of GM automatics (bottom of the transmission).

(1) Print this page.
(2) Crawl under your car and locate the transmission.
(3) Compare these pics to what you see.


This is what I do to indentify GM auto's.:Do No:



http://www.nastyz28.com/pictures/transpan.gif

thank you very much! i will check as soon as i can!

[TheSilverBuick]

I think you've seen this video, but this is me abusing the stock 7.5" diff. The gap in the the rubber is me hitting second gear. If you don't put slicks on the car it'll likely live a long long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_CCLSwdLhU


**Oh and that was with the engine in the earlier pictures.

[noraarm]

Ha! The fan shroud does not in fact need to be changed! There are two staples that hold the extension on the shroud. Remove the staples and the extension comes right off and the 350 will put the fan neatly in the middle of the shroud.

Buick 350 motor mounts are identical to Buick 231 motor mounts.


so will everything else under my hood fit without any problem? can you tell from the pic?

[TheSilverBuick]

Yes. The Buick 350 was an OEM option, so it'll definately fit like OE. Brake Booster, Steering Shaft, Firewall, Control Arms, the Accessories, all easily fit.

[noraarm]

Yes. The Buick 350 was an OEM option, so it'll definately fit like OE. Brake Booster, Steering Shaft, Firewall, Control Arms, the Accessories, all easily fit.

awesome! thank you guys so much! now its just the quest to find a (kinda) cheap 350, hopefully will be doing it by December, im moving in the first 2 weeks of October so no real extra cash. but i do get a 2 car garage at our new house :D haha what exhaust are you using with your 455? i really like the sound. Also is adding a tach easy? im looking up how to install them but im not 100% where my coil is?

[pphil]

awesome! thank you guys so much! now its just the quest to find a (kinda) cheap 350, hopefully will be doing it by December, im moving in the first 2 weeks of October so no real extra cash. but i do get a 2 car garage at our new house :D haha what exhaust are you using with your 455? i really like the sound. Also is adding a tach easy? im looking up how to install them but im not 100% where my coil is?

you have an HIE dist so you have no coil..........
the tack works with 3 wires 1 to the light switch 1 to a ground and 1 to your dist thats it its simple

scott

[noraarm]

you have an HIE dist so you have no coil..........
the tack works with 3 wires 1 to the light switch 1 to a ground and 1 to your dist thats it its simple

scott

haha alright thank you very much, like i said i dont really know a lot but im learning. so i should look for a 3 wire tach?

[noraarm]

i just found this on craigslist, will it work?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/pts/1976437905.html

[TheSilverBuick]

The Tach is simple. The no coil thing is misguided, there is a coil in the cap. If you read the top of your distributor cap were all the plugs are, there is one labelled "Tach". Purchase your tach of choice, set to 6-cyl on the tack, hook up to the wire the paper work with the tach says goes to the coil (or HEI) to the "Tach" port and your are good to go. Then switch the setting from 6-cyl to 8-cyl when you get a 350.

My exhaust is just the Summit universal 2.5" dual exhaust kit. I "think" the mufflers are made by Flowmaster. I don't have an exhaust shop with in 185 miles of me, so I needed something pre-bent and bolt in =P It needs a little work, but has been functional for over a year.

[TheSilverBuick]

i just found this on craigslist, will it work?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/pts/1976437905.html


The 700r4 requires an adapter plate to bolt to your engine. Not the hardest thing to do, but you'd need one to use that trans. I used one to bolt a 700r4 to a Pontiac engine several years ago.

[noraarm]

The Tach is simple. The no coil thing is misguided, there is a coil in the cap. If you read the top of your distributor cap were all the plugs are, there is one labelled "Tach". Purchase your tach of choice, set to 6-cyl on the tack, hook up to the wire the paper work with the tach says goes to the coil (or HEI) to the "Tach" port and your are good to go. Then switch the setting from 6-cyl to 8-cyl when you get a 350.

My exhaust is just the Summit universal 2.5" dual exhaust kit. I "think" the mufflers are made by Flowmaster. I don't have an exhaust shop with in 185 miles of me, so I needed something pre-bent and bolt in =P It needs a little work, but has been functional for over a year.

im looking on amazon right now for tachs, im just so curious to see what im running at. Every car we ever owned my dad put flow master on lol our 90 mustang, 2001 lighting f150 and when my sisters Jeep Cherokee exhaust needed to be changed it even got flow master. i think i need to keep the tradition up haha.

[noraarm]

The 700r4 requires an adapter plate to bolt to your engine. Not the hardest thing to do, but you'd need one to use that trans. I used one to bolt a 700r4 to a Pontiac engine several years ago.

would the block without the trans fit? and i could just sell the trans off or anything?

[noraarm]

The 700r4 requires an adapter plate to bolt to your engine. Not the hardest thing to do, but you'd need one to use that trans. I used one to bolt a 700r4 to a Pontiac engine several years ago.

would the block without the trans fit? and i could just sell the trans off or anything?

[TheSilverBuick]

Well there's something screwy with that ad. I'm 90% sure there were no 700r4's built in 1978, I think they debuted in 1981-82. And in '78 I think all Buick's that came with a V8 were either Chevy or Olds.

(which brings up the point, ok, no Buick 350 came stock on your year, but it's the same as the '76-'77 that was an OEM option, so you are still good)

[noraarm]

Well there's something screwy with that ad. I'm 90% sure there were no 700r4's built in 1978, I think they debuted in 1981-82. And in '78 I think all Buick's that came with a V8 were either Chevy or Olds.

(which brings up the point, ok, no Buick 350 came stock on your year, but it's the same as the '76-'77 that was an OEM option, so you are still good)

ok, so im looking for a 1977 or later buick 350 right? how old is to old?

[noraarm]

Also, another dumb question!

what about my power steering? can i take the bracket etc off mine and put it on a 350?

[TheSilverBuick]

You are looking for a '77 and earlier Buick 350. Very few Buick 350's were made after '77 iirc. If it's advertised as a 350 and after '77, it is likely a Chevy or Oldsmobile.

ALL your brackets will bolt right up exactly as they are on the 231. I wouldn't even disconnect the power steering hoses from the pump during the swap, just unbolt the bracket and lay to the side until you bolt them up to the 350.

[Hector]

Look for '77-'79 Electras and Park Avenues and '77-'78 Rivieras with an X in the vin number,those were equipped with the Buick 350.

[TheSilverBuick]

Ok, that sounds reasonable. I just know about the x-body cars.

[noraarm]

alright thank you guys a lot. some stuff came up with our house but i will defiantly be doing this as soon as i can

[bob k. mando]

official GM VIN decoding shows the Buick 350 available into 1981, although the last year was likely simply rump production left over from 1980. for some reason they abandoned the "X" VIN engine code that had been used up to 1980 and used "B" for the last year.

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vincards/pdf/vincard81.pdf

[roboteq-1@hotma]

If I were you, I'd see if there is a community college around with an auto program. You will be able to purchase most of the things you need before you start your project and the instructor will be able to guide you down the right path the first time. I understand that you want to do this yourself, but from the number of questions you have, jumping into an engine transplant for your first project is way too ambitious. Get a GOOD manual for your car ( check your local library- you probably cannot remove the books but you can make copies ) and study. Most of the folks on this site have been wrenching for years and could do this in their sleep, but it IS NOT a project for a beginner- you can easily do major damage to yourself and/or your vehicle. I dont want to discourage anyone from a new hobby, but like with anything, there is a learning curve. Get some schooling or find a mentor- you will be much better off and much happier in the long run. This site is a wealth of information, but do you really want someone to talk your dr. thru taking out your appendix on the fly??
Good luck.
Robert:beer

[TheSilverBuick]

As long as he can remember how everything bolts on (just the reverse process of removal), the swap is cake. Remove the hood and grill on the car, have a good engine hoist, and the swap is just as simple as pulling the 231 out and putting another 231 in, just he'd be getting two more cylinders. Might take him twice as long, or four times as long as a seasoned pro, but I think it's way easier than actually tearing into an engine.

To give you an idea, I can pull the engine and trans together in my car in 40 minutes working alone. That's including un-hooking all the EFI stuff.

Just unbolt the trans cross member and shift linkage/speedo cable (be sure to support the trans until the pull), unbolt the exhaust manifold flanges (leaving the manifolds on the block), unplug all the wiring laying it off to the passengerside, don't forget the starter wiring, Remove hoses and radiator, unbolt power steering, lay off to the side, disconnect fuel line at the fuel pump, unbolt the two motor mount bolts, Pull engine and trans.

Remove fan shroud extension, drop in Buick 350 with attached trans, reverse above procedures.

[jeff0547]

If I were you, I'd see if there is a community college around with an auto program. You will be able to purchase most of the things you need before you start your project and the instructor will be able to guide you down the right path the first time. I understand that you want to do this yourself, but from the number of questions you have, jumping into an engine transplant for your first project is way too ambitious. Get a GOOD manual for your car ( check your local library- you probably cannot remove the books but you can make copies ) and study. Most of the folks on this site have been wrenching for years and could do this in their sleep, but it IS NOT a project for a beginner- you can easily do major damage to yourself and/or your vehicle. I dont want to discourage anyone from a new hobby, but like with anything, there is a learning curve. Get some schooling or find a mentor- you will be much better off and much happier in the long run. This site is a wealth of information, but do you really want someone to talk your dr. thru taking out your appendix on the fly??
Good luck.
Robert:beer

Aaron, I couldn't agree with Robert more. There are several members in your area that may be willing to serve as mentors. I don't recall who they are, but Mark O'leary ( http://www.v8buick.com/member.php?u=10653 (http://www.v8buick.com/member.php?u=10653)) lives in Bainbridge Island and he may know some of their names. Good luck and remember what Robert said, this "IS NOT a project for a beginner- you can easily do major damage to yourself and/or your vehicle". :Dou:

[jeff0547]

[quote=TheSilverBuick;1722870]As long as he can remember how everything bolts on (just the reverse process of removal), the swap is cake. Remove the hood and grill on the car, have a good engine hoist, and the swap is just as simple as pulling the 231 out and putting another 231 in, just he'd be getting two more cylinders. Might take him twice as long, or four times as long as a seasoned pro, but I think it's way easier than actually tearing into an engine.

Randal (The Silver Buick) makes a good point here. It is really not that hard, but it would really be good to have someone there who has done it before.
The first engine swap I did, I had two Chevy dealership mechanics be there to oversee the swap. (I bribed them with beer. :Do No:)

[TheSilverBuick]

In person help and guidance is always nice, and definately preferred, but some caution and patience will go a long way. That's why he's asking the questions now, to see what it involves. The rest is just wrench turning.

The key to not doing major damage to yourself or car is keeping the engine and trans from swinging into anything while pulling and installing it. Be constantly aware of where things can fall (i.e. engine if hoist fails), and stay out of those places. Using a good set of jack stands while you're under the car and slow careful movements with the engine. Letting the hoist down easy is key. Practice over a tire on the floor if need be with the engine and tran's on the hoist. When pulling the engine you probably want a couple 2x4's stacked under the front tires to get it up a couple inches for the hoist's legs, much better than having the front of the car on jackstands.

[TheSilverBuick]

Here is a post of mine from another thread. Your's will look like this only smaller :pp and have a bunch more room since you don't have A/C, no Evap box in the way or condesor to run the water pump through. Leave the cast manifolds and cross over pipe on, just unbolt the two bolts to the single exhaust. Bolt the cross over pipe back onto the 350 while it's out of the car.

You can see the frame pads my motor mounts bolt to. Your's look similar (little taller and made of steel), but work the same, a single bolt just needs to be removed.

As you are going up, just watch for the tail shaft of the transmission. The 231 probably won't have any issues on clearance, but you may have to raise up the front of the engine like I did to get the trans to clear. Mine is a little extreme because the internal linkage on the manual transmission hangs up in the trans tunnel and stuff, your's won't be that bad. I used a ratchet strap over the front of the hoist. An engine leveller is definately better, or if you have a friend or two to help, they just need to help guide the trans.

You can use longer bolts in the intake with a chain to pull the 231, but with a 4bbl carb you can't beat one of those engine lift plates. Watch for the engine/trans wanting to swing as you go up, if you are going slow it's a non-issue to keep under control.

**Oh, I did forget to mention** Remove the driveshaft, I recommend removing the yoke from the shaft afterwards and inserting it back into the trans to keep the fluid in the trans. Then make sure it doesn't get hung up on the trans tunnel. You can see how I did that in the last picture.



Engine is out! No hitches at all. This has to be a new record for removal for me. Too much practice I say :P Now I know why the manufacturer didn't put one in from the factory, too easy to install and remove :D :P
The passengerside header around the evaporator box.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs218.snc4/39261_1498073205454_1042835976_31411369_3908917_n. jpg
Plenty of room on the driver's side.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs268.snc4/39721_1498072965448_1042835976_31411367_7400490_n. jpg
Moving on up.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs218.snc4/39261_1498073165453_1042835976_31411368_249312_n.j pg
Up up and away. The headers had no clearance issues.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs236.snc4/39160_1498073445460_1042835976_31411370_5495189_n. jpg
Picture of the knock sensor and it's wire location relative to the starter and header. I'll probably remove the starter for installation and any future removals. It's only two bolts and it kinda got hung up on the engine frame pad, no sense in risking denting it up and causing it not to work.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs116.ash2/39160_1498073485461_1042835976_31411371_6759421_n. jpg
Free and clear. It's resting on my engine tire at the moment, I'll separate the trans and put it on the engine stand tonight and be ready for disassembly tomorrow. Hopefully my timing cover and oil pan gaskets show up tomorrow, that'd be the only hold up to putting this back in on Saturday.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs216.snc4/39160_1498073525462_1042835976_31411372_7876382_n. jpg
Oh, and my oil pressure sending unit had a steady drip when the engine is running >:( so I got a new one from summit.

[noraarm]

I got the ok from my mom to buy a 350, i just have to wait until we move which will be soon. i dont want to get stuck halfway through and then find out we are moving the next day plus i will have a garage not a car port. Is anyone local that i could meet up with when i find one to make sure its not a piece of junk?

[noraarm]

Okay guys, i've been shopping around looking for an engine and i have a few more questions.

Is some rust okay on the engine block and or intake manifold? as long as it isn't deep? and is that fixable?

Also, if i find one with a automatic tranny will it fit no matter what or does it matter?

Oh, and will a 350 with stock headers fit my current stock exhaust?

and how old of motor should i get? is like a 68' or 69' to old?
would i be able to use unleaded gas with an engine that old?