switching to efi

[apachepatmanfx]

what are the pros and cons of switching to efi, how much of a mpg increase do you observe? hp increase/decrease?

[TheSilverBuick]

All depends on what you want to do and how well you can tune it.

Peak to Peak HP if you are an ace with the carb and an ace with EFI will likely be the same. Here are the advantages I feel of EFI:

Timing Controls - Having better timing controls usually fatten up the low and mid range torque curves (and associated HP). With the timing modifications you should be able to lean the engine out for better mpgs (something I'm starting to work on this week, after two years of essentially leaving the timing table alone)

Make Changes quickly without getting dirty - If you are a drag racer, you can make a pass, make the change and be ready to run again in less than a minute. Conversely, testing out in the real world, I'm fond of making runs down desert roads, make a change without even unbuckling my seat belt, and making another run to see how the change worked out.

Barometric correction: I drive regularly from 7500ft down to sea level. That's a huge variation in air density that the carbureator does not like. It has to run rich at 7500ft if it's going to run normal at sea level with out changing stuff.

Side benefit of the EFI is most come with a Data logging ability. So maybe factor that into the cost side in Carb vs. EFI. What's a carb, timing controller and a datalogger cost together? It's not apples to apples comparing them on just the fueling side, carbs are usually cheaper because they do less.

I'm still a novice in the tuning department. I have no idea what HP I was making before or after. So far my mpg's are exactly the same as the Q-jet and HEI, but there is a ton of room for improvement in my tune. Cold start up, low rpm cruising, and low-mid rpm power are much better. Though admittedly I did not spend anytime setting up the Q-jet.

The best 1/4 mile run I made with the Q-jet and points was low-16's @ ~95mph cause it kept vapor locking the carb in 3rd gear. I made a 14.7second at 100mph with BFG's, no traction and popping a head gasket =P

A lot of top contenders in Hot Rod's dragweek run an EFI system, so it's got to work.

I might be a bit bias =P

[theone61636]

Pro's:
Infinitely tuneable (depending on which system you use)
More power under the curve
Better mpg (depends more on your entire drive train and the type of system you use)

Con's:
Expensive
You'll never be "done" tuning

If you're going to do it, do it right the first time and spend the time and money to get a fully tune-able mutli-port EFI system. You wallet and sanity will thank you in the long run.

I personally didn't see an increase or decrease in gas mileage going from the stock QJ to the Powerjection III system I have now. The power increase was noticeable but i have no dyno#'s or track times to back it up, only seat of the pants.

Honestly, if you're looking for more power AND better gas mileage, get an over drive transmission(or a 5/6 speed manual), some headers, and a well calibrated Q-Jet and call it a day.

[TheSilverBuick]

"You'll never be "done" tuning"

Ain't that the truth! I know people who dyno tune the engine, runs great, gets great mpg's, and the hardest part for them is leaving it alone, lol. Lots of self control is needed once it's right to not screw with it. I've had it right a few times, and managed to screw it up and forget which save file had the "good" tune in it =P

[Nothingface5384]

i have a new in box powerjection III TBI kit for sell for 1300 shipped. if interste shoot me a pm or post in my forsale thread linked in my signature
for another 200 i'll consider adding an electric fuel pump(for n/a apps) and a pair of summit fuel filters (100micron SS filter and 10? celleuse prefilter)
another 50 for a comp engineering sump for your tank


This would practicaly be everything needed for you to switch to fuel injection, only thing you'd still have to buy would be a fuel pressure regulator which you can pickup cheap through summit..

[theone61636]

i have a new in box powerjection III TBI kit for sell for 1300 shipped. if interste shoot me a pm or post in my forsale thread linked in my signature
for another 200 i'll consider adding an electric fuel pump(for n/a apps) and a pair of summit fuel filters (100micron SS filter and 10? celleuse prefilter)
another 50 for a comp engineering sump for your tank


This would pracitcly be literaly everything needed for you to switch to fuel injection, only think you'd still have to buy would be a fuel pressure regulator which you can pickup cheap through summit..

LOL, having doubts now? What are your plans now?

[Nothingface5384]

i'm getting a vendor over pro-touring to make me a dominator mpfi package up and to convert my intake for the injector bungs and fuel rails

[theone61636]

i'm getting a vendor over pro-touring to make me a dominator mpfi package up and to convert my intake for the injector bungs and fuel rails

Sounds good. Can't wait to see another fuel injected BBB.

[Nothingface5384]

Sounds good. Can't wait to see another fuel injected BBB.

ah, sorry to dissapoint...i only have a 350 lol
but the twin turbos will turn it to big block power

[theone61636]

ah, sorry to dissapoint...i only have a 350 lol
but the twin turbos will turn it to big block power

HA! Even better. We'll show these modern muscle cars a thing or two I bet.

[elagache]

Dear V8 Buick fans,

I just got my hands on a Buick 430 V-8 salvaged from a 1967 Buick Electra. I'm planning a "drivetrain transplant" into my 1965 Buick Special Wagon. Since I also fear the cost of gas and am fed up carburetor "voodoo," I've been pondering the EFI upgrade. However, what opinions I've heard are clearly mixed. As some folks here have tried, I gotten a suggestion for the Retrotek Powerjection System. The other suggested systems I've gotten is for a port-tuned system by Accel 77010W (which requires modifications to an aluminum intake manifold). I've also gotten a suggestion for an Accel version of the throttle-body fuel injection system, the Accel 77135D.

I got interested by all this from the TA-Performance intake manifold/EFI combo: This didn't seem like such a difficult scheme to get some really modern driveability (and I hoped better fuel economy).

My speedy attempt to glean all the wisdom on V8 Buick suggested that people's experience with this has been mixed. Is that the overall consensus? Has there been improvements in the hardware and software so that getting a car going with EFI is now easier - or not? Do folks have other recommendations as far as EFI vendors and products?

I certainly would be interested in all opinions before I commit myself to anything serious (as in $$$) :grin:

Sincerely,

Edouard in Orinda, CA

[flynbuick]

In terms of fuel saving if you do the math it will take a long time for most older cars to ever recover the additional dollars spent on the FI conversion. Of course, if it is a regular driver it will take less time. But this is not how most older cars are driven.

If you get a pro built carb that has been test run and dialed in close on an engine you cannot go wrong. Get one from the guy that wrote the book.

[elagache]

Thanks Jim for your very reasonable comments,


In terms of fuel saving if you do the math it will take a long time for most older cars to ever recover the additional dollars spent on the FI conversion. Of course, if it is a regular driver it will take less time. But this is not how most older cars are driven.

If you get a pro built carb that has been test run and dialed in close on an engine you cannot go wrong. Get one from the guy that wrote the book.

I actually tried to crunch the numbers but it depends to two impossible to judge parameters: how much better fuel economy you'll get and how much higher the price of gas will go. With very optimistic assumptions of the improved fuel economy, you might pay back for this in as little as 33,000 miles. More realistically through - you are likely to at least recover the cost of EFI over the life of the engine assuming the maintenance on the system doesn't spiral out of control.

However, your key point is probably correct for at least 80-90% of classic cars out there. Old cars are more for show than for go. That's the difference in my case (if nothing more than wishful thinking). My wagon is literally the family heirloom that has been working for the family since 1968. I'm really hoping to keep the car in that role. Even if it doesn't get out everyday, I want to handle things like weekly shopping chores and so on. So even if I'm not going to recover the investment, I'm feeling the itch in order to make the car a pleasant, hassle-free driving experience. The bottom line is that the ol'Buick wagon has been losing out to our "brand new" 2000 Buick Century and I want our 65 to be at least closer to that sort of pleasant driving.

Call me a sucker but . . . . anyone hanging on to a 45 year old car is a little . . . different! :grin:

Cheers, Edouard

[Nothingface5384]

yes, its alot easier now aday to get a decent tune from the get go, due to alot of the kits having a self tune ability like the powerjection III "retrotek" o have for sell

tbi will do you well, and is far the easiet and cheapest

anything mpfi (multi point bank to bank)or sfi (individual cylinder injection) will be about double the cost, and most likely more then a tbi kit

[TheSilverBuick]

I've got roughly 20,000 miles on my EFI system in a year and a half. So it's safe to say I drive my Buick :3gears: I have yet to beat the mpg's of the Q-jet though :Dou: though I have consistently matched it. I have lots of lessons to learn with tuning though, and am just really stepping into the timing. This last weekend, on a 700 mile trip, I matched my Q-jet mpg while towing a trailer with an engine on it, by significantly advancing the ignition timing and leaning out the fuel, had to watch for detonation, especially while towing with 3.08 gears, but I have the fine amount of adjustment capability to handle that, while cruising down the road no less! Got to love straight never ending empty Nevada highways.

I just purchased the intake set up from TA, not their whole EFI package. It'll probably never pay for itself with my tuning abilities :Smarty: but I have EFI people convinced I should be getting at least 4mpgs, and I think I should be 8mpgs more from previous combinations with Q-jets and standard distributors. But I didn't do it to save money (does anyone build a Buick to save money:idea2:), I did it for drivability and mpgs. I can in a single one way 500 mile trip go from 7500ft elevation to sea level, carbs don't like that too much and at the same time I'd like to make that 500 miles without having to stop for fuel. It theoretically could save me money as a fringe benefit, but it's not the primary reason.

Then to top it off. I LOVE telling people my car has a Fuel Injected Buick 455 with a 5-speed manual:3gears: You can check my build from the link in my signature.


That being said. At some point I'm going to try and do a dirt cheap EFI conversion on my Centurion. I think I can get the full cost down to around $600 on a multiport system. Doing more fabricating myself and less purchasing ready to go parts. My T-bird cost me around $800 with a 670cfm TBI (in place of a 600cfm Autolite).

[theone61636]

Like i said above, you'll get more bang for your buck going with an overdrive transmission. That's where most of your mileage gains will be had.

As far as getting your moneys worth consider this:
I currently get 9.5mpg, drive roughly 30miles a day, and usually fill up at the 20 gallon mark. At 3$ a gallon I'm spending roughly 4547 a year on gas. Now if I could increase my mileage to just 12, and nothing else changed, i would only spend 3600 a year with a savings of 947. So, it might take a while to recoup whatever you spend for an EFI system or overdrive trans. That can't be the reason you do it.

[elagache]

Hi Jason and V-8 Buick fans,


Like i said above, you'll get more bang for your buck going with an overdrive transmission. That's where most of your mileage gains will be had.

It is actually a great idea . . . . . Just one thing wrong with it - I had already planned on it! :laugh:

I discovered that a 200-4R swap for the car's existing TH350 was relatively painless (any opinions to the contrary?) So I'm already committed to upgrading to a hardened transmission to go along with the just-acquired 67 Buick 430. So that's already factored into the hopeful savings column!

I've gotten all sort of good advice about cams, exhaust, and other goodies to try boast fuel economy. A good many of these ideas I'm already committed to.

Getting an Electronic Fuel Injection system would simply make one more step toward trying to get this old wagon to perform as well as it possibly can. It's not like I'm going to keep ahead of the technology race, but I hope to improve the car enough so that I'll feel a lot better using it for the sorts of things it used to do day-to-day in its "youth."

Thanks for all the good ideas. If folks have any other clever tricks as gas starts heading for four bucks a gallon I'm there will be plenty of interested listeners! Is there anyone who doesn't need to save a few of theses? :dollar:

Cheers, Edouard :beer

[theone61636]

Hello and welcome. It seems like you have the funds to do this right the first time. Here's what i would recommend:
1. Figure out what grade of gas you want to use and figure out your engine combination to give you the proper static and dynamic compression ratios to allow you to run that grade.
2. Figure out what heads you want to use and get them flowed.
3. Unless you're going for all out horsepower, I would stick with an aluminum dual plane. It will keep the low rpm air speed high in the ports and act most like a modern efi manifold that a single plane. Plus, it will help keep the torque down low where you're going to need it.
4. Get your block straight. Oil mods, bigger pickup, crank scraper, grooved bearings, stock rods with ARP bolts, forged pistons, rings, etc.
5. Call TA and talk to them about your efi goals and have them custom make a low lift hydraulic roller cam to maximize mpg's.
6. Good flowing exhaust, headers might not necessarily be the best idea but usually will flow better than manifolds.
7. Overdrive trans (you already have this) with proper torque converter.
8. Finally, your efi setup. Depending on how much you want tune, I would pick a MPFI system regardless with ignition control and of course the proper system components to support the whole thing. If it's not a self learning system, take it to a competent tuner and have them dyno tune your engine and wallah, you're done.

Obviously, there are cheaper ways to get tot he 90% solution, but this is what I would do if I had the money. No matter what, good luck and we're all here to help however we can.

[Professor EFI]

I have never come to grasps on how much people think they can make there 1960-70s bloody V8s sip from a coffee stir stick straw. I mean come on here we have so many variables that prevent this from being achieved. The technology of EFI has come to the point where we have endless tune-ability that really allows us to control every facet of how the engine runs. Impressive, most definitely, but we cannot forget that with the 40-50 years of advancements the engine itself has come a long way as well. Engines of today can get away with running leaner than stoichiometric (14.7:1) and in turn less fuel is better fuel economy. Before you know it the EFI that we know with a throttlebody is going to disappear because direct injection will in essence make a gasoline engine a diesel!

Back to this fuel economy thing. You are only going to get so much. A five mpg is probably the usual with going to a basic EFI system. We really should not be looking at this though. If you cant afford gas then why do you have a muscle car? What ever happened to Making more HP?

The benefit that we should be looking at the most with EFI is drive-ability. You want the pleasure of hopping in your car starting it with confidence and taking off to the bar, show, doughnut shop, or track and maybe blow the doors off one of the neighborhood rice rice fart can import kids. The most important thing in EFI to me and hopefully you is HP and not only top end HP but over the entire RPM range. Which brings be back to the point of...

1. Chill out :bglasses:

2. Spend your :dollar: on your already expensive hobby

3. :3gears: Drive it! Because you are not driving a Prius.

4. Enjoy what you have created. :beers2:

[73 Centurion]

I wonder how long it will be before someone offers an aftermarket EFI with some kind of displacement on demand system. The LS engines get great gas mileage on the highway because they are running 4 cylinders.

I bet the mpg increase with that type of system would be much bigger. Of course the system would have to be multi-port. But I'm not sure what else is essential.

It would probably be best to have one coil per cylinder controlled by the computer. Would it hurt the engine to have a spark in a cylinder without fuel?

Is there anything else involved beyond turning off the injectors to certain cylinders?

John

[V8TV]

Regarding the "always tuning" comment, (and I've been there!), the new "learning" self-tuning systems with wideband O2 sensor feedback really work nicely and will find a better tune than 99% of people will. Just drive and log time and the system does the rest.

[Professor EFI]

I wonder how long it will be before someone offers an aftermarket EFI with some kind of displacement on demand system. The LS engines get great gas mileage on the highway because they are running 4 cylinders.

I bet the mpg increase with that type of system would be much bigger. Of course the system would have to be multi-port. But I'm not sure what else is essential.

It would probably be best to have one coil per cylinder controlled by the computer. Would it hurt the engine to have a spark in a cylinder without fuel?

Is there anything else involved beyond turning off the injectors to certain cylinders?

John

The LS engine running on 4 cylinders is a lot more complicated that just port fuel injection and COP (coil on plug) ignition. The fuel injection needs to be sequential and there needs to be a form of timing control. They on board computer does not just shut down the fuel and spark to 4 cylinders but is also selects which cylinder to shut down. It is constantly cycling the all the cylinder between a dead fire and actual combustion. Now to add to the complexity of this now you have oxygen passing though the engine and into the exhaust. Now I do not know how Chevy pulled this off but there is air effecting the oxygen sensor. Do they use 8 sensors now or is there some kind of software that can manage to see past these false readings.

[Dr. EFI]

I have never come to grasps on how much people think they can make there 1960-70s bloody V8s sip from a coffee stir stick straw. I mean come on here we have so many variables that prevent this from being achieved. The technology of EFI has come to the point where we have endless tune-ability that really allows us to control every facet of how the engine runs. Impressive, most definitely, but we cannot forget that with the 40-50 years of advancements the engine itself has come a long way as well. Engines of today can get away with running leaner than stoichiometric (14.7:1) and in turn less fuel is better fuel economy. Before you know it the EFI that we know with a throttlebody is going to disappear because direct injection will in essence make a gasoline engine a diesel!

Back to this fuel economy thing. You are only going to get so much. A five mpg is probably the usual with going to a basic EFI system. We really should not be looking at this though. If you cant afford gas then why do you have a muscle car? What ever happened to Making more HP?

The benefit that we should be looking at the most with EFI is drive-ability. You want the pleasure of hopping in your car starting it with confidence and taking off to the bar, show, doughnut shop, or track and maybe blow the doors off one of the neighborhood rice rice fart can import kids. The most important thing in EFI to me and hopefully you is HP and not only top end HP but over the entire RPM range. Which brings be back to the point of...

1. Chill out :bglasses:

2. Spend your :dollar: on your already expensive hobby

3. :3gears: Drive it! Because you are not driving a Prius.

4. Enjoy what you have created. :beers2:


Thank the freakin Lord for this guy! :gp:

Lets not make opinions on EFI systems we have no experience with. :blast:

You think port EFI is that much better, I KNOW not. :bla:

Also Lets remember that all the advancements that were made in EFI(until now) were because of emissions, not performance. If you want to save fuel build an efficient small block, not a gas guzzling 600ft lb torque big block that revs to 5k.

I put EFI on my car and lost about 3 mpg, you know why? I made more power and drove the car harder than ever because it ran so much better. When I'm worried about MPG I hop on the Buell and get 40mpg instead of the 11 my boosted SBC gets

If you want a great Port EFI system, check out www.turnkeyEFI.com

I will be installing one shortly...

[TheSilverBuick]

I wonder how long it will be before someone offers an aftermarket EFI with some kind of displacement on demand system. The LS engines get great gas mileage on the highway because they are running 4 cylinders.

I bet the mpg increase with that type of system would be much bigger. Of course the system would have to be multi-port. But I'm not sure what else is essential.

It would probably be best to have one coil per cylinder controlled by the computer. Would it hurt the engine to have a spark in a cylinder without fuel?

Is there anything else involved beyond turning off the injectors to certain cylinders?

John


I want to build a Cadillac 4-6-8 soooo bad using MegaSquirt. Or rather use the heads/solenoids on a 472/500 engine. You can have spark with out fuel with out much problem as that's how these systems worked. They just closed down the valves and let the spark do it's thing. If you are not closing the valves there will likely be fuel siphoning off other cylinders. It probably won't hurt anything, but you are still getting a pumping loss.

I've once drove from Phoenix to Las Vegas on 7 cylinders with the fuel injector and spark plug unhooked on one cylinder because there was no compression in #6 and it was pressurizing my crankcase with every power stroke. Then when the car ate a cam 200 miles from home, I unpluged the injectors and spark plugs to two cylinders to get the backfiring to stop and drove home on six cylinders.

I don't know anyone that lost mpg's by going EFI, most gained 2-5mpgs. Blows my mind to know of a EFI'd street driven, 900HP naturally aspirated Ford that gets 15mpgs (w/AOD). Or almost 900HP N/A small block Malibu with 4.30+ gears with no overdrive that gets ~12mpg.

[TheSilverBuick]

The LS engine running on 4 cylinders is a lot more complicated that just port fuel injection and COP (coil on plug) ignition. The fuel injection needs to be sequential and there needs to be a form of timing control. They on board computer does not just shut down the fuel and spark to 4 cylinders but is also selects which cylinder to shut down. It is constantly cycling the all the cylinder between a dead fire and actual combustion. Now to add to the complexity of this now you have oxygen passing though the engine and into the exhaust. Now I do not know how Chevy pulled this off but there is air effecting the oxygen sensor. Do they use 8 sensors now or is there some kind of software that can manage to see past these false readings.


I think you are mistaken in this. You confuse the limp home/overheat mode with actual displacement on demand.

The LS engines collapse the lifters on four cylinders, so the same four cylinders shut down every time. The injectors to those ports are turned off. I don't know about spark. I currently have my multiport wiring done up so that I can turn off four injectors at once, and I have the wiring done in a way that it's the same four that a Caddy 4-6-8 engine shuts off. I could easily of wired it for the same four cylinders that the LS shuts off. Sequential injection isn't a factor, it just skips the shut down cylinders in the sequence. Also because the cylinder valves do not open and the cylinder does not pump air (it becomes an air spring), the O2 sensors still read a good AFR and are not leaned out by empty cylinders pumping.

I have the control to shut those four injectors off by either a toggle switch, or by setting load/rpm and TPS parameters to manage it on it's own. Those are the two methods to choose from if I ever build a DOD LS engine or a Caddy 4-6-8.

[elagache]

Hi Jason and Professor EFI,


Hello and welcome. It seems like you have the funds to do this right the first time. Here's what i would recommend:

<snip></snip>[snip]

Obviously, there are cheaper ways to get tot he 90% solution, but this is what I would do if I had the money. No matter what, good luck and we're all here to help however we can.

Thanks Jason very much for the check-list! I have some of these issues already noted, but I will carefully incorporate your suggestions. I don't know if I have the money, but I'd like to at least research the matter carefully and - find out if I can afford it!


I have never come to grasps on how much people think they can make there 1960-70s bloody V8s sip from a coffee stir stick straw. <snip>

But, but, but . . . I didn't say I thought I could do this! If I really wanted to take advantage of all the modern technology, there is a way: put a modern Chevy SUV drivetrain in the car. Certainly I'll get much better gas mileage and the car will do everything I want of it. But will still be a Buick? I don't think anyone on this forum would say yes - so . . . . how to compromise?



Back to this fuel economy thing. You are only going to get so much. A five mpg is probably the usual with going to a basic EFI system.

Yes, but 5 mpg looks very differently when you consider what I want to use the car for. Right now the car gets 13 mpg. With a 20 gallon gas tank, that's a range of only 260 miles between fill-ups. My goal in building this 430 V-8 is to make all the economy enhancements that are possible: 4-speed 200-4R transmission, RV cams, etc.) So maybe the engine will being the car down to 11 mpg. Add 5 mpg and the car is up to 16. Increase the fuel tank to 30 gallons, now the car has a range of 480 miles. If your goal is a car for vacationing and "road trips" that's a huge difference in terms of being able to enjoy the car on the open road (especially given how hard it is to find gas these days.)


We really should not be looking at this though. If you cant afford gas then why do you have a muscle car? What ever happened to Making more HP?

Well, you see - I'm an "intruder" on this forum . . . . I confess - don't want just more horsepower (please don't hit me!)

All this is intended for an upgrade for a 1965 Buick Special wagon. So it isn't your first-choice muscle car. However, this car has been in the family for 42 years. It really isn't your "run of the mill" muscle car candidate. What I'm actually trying to create is the "ultimate" 60s era tow vehicle and family wagon.

So I'm certainly going to pay through the nose for gas. But the goal is different than most classic car owners. Most classic cars driven around their neighborhoods and that's it. I may not succeed, but I really want to give back to our old wagon its job as vacation, camping, and tow vehicle. It may seem silly, but camp grounds used to be ruled by the classic station wagon. Its time that at least one wagon get out there and remind them SUVs that they don't have the great outdoors all to themselves!

Wish me luck!

Thanks for all interesting thoughts!

Cheers, Edouard


</snip>P.S.
<snip>3. :3gears: Drive it! Because you are not driving a Prius.

A Prissy! :rolleyes: Don't use that word! - our neighborhood is literally crawlin' with'em. :mad: Such a scourge upon the the very roads that my venerable Buick has traveled for oh-so many years! :laugh:
</snip>

[Jim Weise]

Guys,

FYI..

A couple of years ago we finished a 68 GS 400 convert- 435 CI big block, 200-4R trans, 3.08 gears.

No wimpy mileage master motor here.. made 400 HP on the engine dyno.

Got 20 MPG on a hyway trip, 14-16 around town.

With a quadrajet..

JW

[elagache]

Thank you Jim and Mark!

Each of you have have done in your own way tons to reassure me on this conversion caper!


A couple of years ago we finished a 68 GS 400 convert- 435 CI big block, 200-4R trans, 3.08 gears.

No wimpy mileage master motor here.. made 400 HP on the engine dyno.

Got 20 MPG on a hyway trip, 14-16 around town.

With a quadrajet..

Thank you so much for this snippet! Part of my misery was getting some idea of how much the 200-4R transmission would help. That much more than I hoped!! :TU:


There are alot of misconceptions, too many to go into here. Guess what, if you pay less for a system more often than not you get less.

Thank you Mark for making this simple but critical point. Putting all EFI systems in the same basket is about the same as putting a Chevy and Buick in the same basket . . .:laugh:

All high-tech suffers from a lot of small companies competing hard against one another. Sometimes that spurs technological innovation. However, far more often than anyone admits, it causes cheapening of the product. It's true of MP3 players, computer software, and aftermarket auto accessories. There are no miracles in manufacturing. If its significantly cheaper, they had to do something that cost less.


EFI in my book makes a nostalgic ride like we have that much more enjoyable, especially in areas with widely varying climates.

My situation is rather unique. To get this large block V-8 in my car, I'll have to "fuss with" many components associated with an EFI conversion. So it is more appealing for me than it will be for someone who is looking at a car built for the 455. Also, I really hope to take the car on the open road where indeed a more uniform driving experience will make vacations that much more fun.

If you have a classic that is traveling a few miles around town (mostly to the drag strip :3gears:) Fuel Injection may not have any appeal for you. For me, Electronic Fuel Injection may be a real win for me. So, I'll keep investigating this!

Thanks to all for your help in my conversion caper!

Cheers, Edouard :beers2:

[TheSilverBuick]

Thank you Jim and Mark!
There are no miracles in manufacturing. If its significantly cheaper, they had to do something that cost less.


Yeah, that's why I assembled my own megasquirts and wiring harness.

I maybe have around $1500 in my Skylark's EFI, with the EFI SPX intake costing twice as much as the megasquirt ECU itself. Also, it's open source programming, so they don't have to cover costs of programmers, just hobbiest like us that happen to be good with software programming :TU:

[69GS400s]

Is there anything else involved beyond turning off the injectors to certain cylinders?

John

... a description of GM's DOD

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/accessories_electronics/0405sc_gmdod/index.html

[elagache]

Dear Silver-Buick,

I'm certainly very impressed with what you have one! . . . . but . . .


Yeah, that's why I assembled my own megasquirts and wiring harness.

I maybe have around $1500 in my Skylark's EFI, with the EFI SPX intake costing twice as much as the megasquirt ECU itself. Also, it's open source programming, so they don't have to cover costs of programmers, just hobbiest like us that happen to be good with software programming :TU:

I've gone back over your EFI thread and well . . . . . it's kinda taken a while to get the car where you want it! My poor wagon has been languishing in a state of misery for a few years now. I'd really like the car to come back to a state of robust health. After all, it is a 60s car - they are known to be tough as nails!

Not much hope here, but are there any commercial EFI systems using megasquirt components are part of their setup? I'm a big fan of Open Source too. It is all too rare, but there have been some effective commercial Open Source partnerships. However, Google wasn't able to dredge up such a thing in the case of megasquirt.

Thanks again for all the thoughts!

Cheers, Edouard

[TheSilverBuick]

I was driving the car around town the day after I fired it up with the EFI. I fired it up around 5pm at night, messed with some idle settings and stuff, then went into the house and built a fuel map from the idle and free rev characteristics. Hit the highway (best with a partner driving or playing with the laptop for safety reasons....) and play with the fuel maps at steady state cruising or find a good hill to "dyno" tune on. Supposibly there is some autotuning software in the works for MegaSquirt. I didn't have much luck with the beta version, but I may not of had the parameters set right because some people did like it.

Spectre's EMS Pro IS a commercial Megasquirt with more inputs and outputs. It runs the same firmware as the megasquirt.

Mined you, I work a 50 hour work week, so I do big stuff on the weekend and little stuff on the weekdays. So it just takes time. If I wanted to pay for some dyno time I could have the EFI perfectly set in a day.

I'm more curious how the autotune EFI systems work around sensor failures. I've broken one wire to my air intake sensor and the car went a bit rich, but on another note I had an LC-1 wide band O2 fail on me, and I continued driving my car for three or so months, 5-6,000 miles, 7500ft to sea level, with and with out a camp trailer, etc. With out a hiccup. Do they just leave the Fuel map alone? What if a temp sensor goes? etc?

[Dr. EFI]

I'm the guy in this video;
http://www.accel-dfi.com/ then go to "featured video"

There are alot of misconceptions, too many to go into here. Guess what, if you pay less for a system more often than not you get less.

I'll put the Accel against anything in it's class. When you go EFI as I did get one that will do what you want, controllong fans, locking up the converter and turning off the A/C clutch when your foot is in it among other things.

I sell Thruster management kits starting at $1700.00. Above that you'll need a manifold, fuel rails, throttle body, injectors etc. All my kits come with a base tune and support. The software is great and easy to navigate, download it and see for yourself.

Remember the Retrotek/Powerjection have extreme limitations, no barometer and a bunch of other shortcomings. And a throttle body system will still have the same inherent defficiencies that a carb will have, you're basically just putting an electronic carb on the same manifold. It'll puddle and have uneven fuel distribution the same way a carb would. With a good multiport you can compensate for all that and then some.

EFI in my book makes a nostalgic ride like we have that much more enjoyable, especially in areas with widely varying climates.

Mark

Yes, you get what you pay for. The Retro / PP system was not sold as though it had all the bells and whistles...

As will I put the PIII against anything in it's class ...

How are they shortcomings? It wasn't sold like it had all those things! You want a sequential EFI that does all that, That will run a LS motor, do fuel and timing (drive 8 coils) It's coming out in a month...

The deficiencies you speak of are either gone or reduced to the point where they are manageable. at that point nothing will help other than a change in the physical properties of the engine... Including fuel delivery location.

[Professor EFI]

I think you are mistaken in this. You confuse the limp home/overheat mode with actual displacement on demand.

The LS engines collapse the lifters on four cylinders, so the same four cylinders shut down every time. The injectors to those ports are turned off. I don't know about spark. I currently have my multiport wiring done up so that I can turn off four injectors at once, and I have the wiring done in a way that it's the same four that a Caddy 4-6-8 engine shuts off. I could easily of wired it for the same four cylinders that the LS shuts off. Sequential injection isn't a factor, it just skips the shut down cylinders in the sequence. Also because the cylinder valves do not open and the cylinder does not pump air (it becomes an air spring), the O2 sensors still read a good AFR and are not leaned out by empty cylinders pumping.

I have the control to shut those four injectors off by either a toggle switch, or by setting load/rpm and TPS parameters to manage it on it's own. Those are the two methods to choose from if I ever build a DOD LS engine or a Caddy 4-6-8.

Thanks for the added info. I know there are a few methods that the big timers are doing theses days.

How do you propose putting that collapsible cam/lifter-ma-jig in your Buick big block?

[Professor EFI]

Hi Professor EFI,

But, but, but . . . I didn't say I thought I could do this! If I really wanted to take advantage of all the modern technology, there is a way: put a modern Chevy SUV drivetrain in the car. Certainly I'll get much better gas mileage and the car will do everything I want of it. But will still be a Buick? I don't think anyone on this forum would say yes - so . . . . how to compromise?

A Yukon?!?!?! 4X4 with mudders!?!?! Sweet!



Yes, but 5 mpg looks very differently when you consider what I want to use the car for. Right now the car gets 13 mpg. With a 20 gallon gas tank, that's a range of only 260 miles between fill-ups. My goal in building this 430 V-8 is to make all the economy enhancements that are possible: 4-speed 200-4R transmission, RV cams, etc.) So maybe the engine will being the car down to 11 mpg. Add 5 mpg and the car is up to 16. Increase the fuel tank to 30 gallons, now the car has a range of 480 miles. If your goal is a car for vacationing and "road trips" that's a huge difference in terms of being able to enjoy the car on the open road (especially given how hard it is to find gas these days.)
You are right with the fact that everything helps. Just don't expect it to leave money for the tooth you left under the pillow.




Well, you see - I'm an "intruder" on this forum . . . . I confess - don't want just more horsepower (please don't hit me!)
I hope you are not in California! :grin:



All this is intended for an upgrade for a 1965 Buick Special wagon. So it isn't your first-choice muscle car. However, this car has been in the family for 42 years. It really isn't your "run of the mill" muscle car candidate. What I'm actually trying to create is the "ultimate" 60s era tow vehicle and family wagon.

So I'm certainly going to pay through the nose for gas. But the goal is different than most classic car owners. Most classic cars driven around their neighborhoods and that's it. I may not succeed, but I really want to give back to our old wagon its job as vacation, camping, and tow vehicle. It may seem silly, but camp grounds used to be ruled by the classic station wagon. Its time that at least one wagon get out there and remind them SUVs that they don't have the great outdoors all to themselves!

Okay! I have the ultimate idea!!!! Put a diesel in it! Nobody would now what just blew past them with a cloud of black smoke billowing out of the back!

[Professor EFI]

Originally Posted by theone61636 http://www.v8buick.com/streetrod/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?p=1788979#post1788979)
3. :3gears: Drive it! Because you are not driving a Prius.




A Prissy! :rolleyes: Don't use that word! - our neighborhood is literally crawlin' with'em. :mad: Such a scourge upon the the very roads that my venerable Buick has traveled for oh-so many years! :laugh:


WHO IS STILLING MY QUOTES!!! I am going to get you theone61636.

[Nothingface5384]

Yes, you get what you pay for. The Retro / PP system was not sold as though it had all the bells and whistles...

As will I put the PIII against anything in it's class ...

How are they shortcomings? It wasn't sold like it had all those things! You want a sequential EFI that does all that, That will run a LS motor, do fuel and timing (drive 8 coils) It's coming out in a month...

The deficiencies you speak of are either gone or reduced to the point where they are manageable. at that point nothing will help other than a change in the physical properties of the engine... Including fuel delivery location.

ps what fpg does the pj3 require? 30-65 psi or is or 30psi too hight for TBI?

[Professor EFI]

ps what fpg does the pj3 require? 30-65 psi or is or 30psi too hight for TBI?


The Powerjection III runs at 45 PSI. If you get the return or returnless kit you will receive a gauge with the kit. That is what you asked right?

[TheSilverBuick]

Thanks for the added info. I know there are a few methods that the big timers are doing theses days.

How do you propose putting that collapsible cam/lifter-ma-jig in your Buick big block?


Haha, no controllable collapsable lifters for the Buick. I wired it up prior to figuring out how Cadillac's system worked, to see if their method would work on the Buick's. The Cadillac's use a shifting rocker arm fulcrum, so that to disable the valves it lifted the pivot point on the rocker so that the rocking motion did not open the valve. I'm told by Cadillac enthusiast that the rocker set up is rather robust and it's the cheap electronics that controlled them that failed (as well as the plastic valve covers). At the time I was looking to see if I could adapt a Cadillac rocker system or head to the Buick. Right now it now looks pretty infeasible for my skills, but I did the wiring prior to fully studying the Cadillac system. Maybe welding the proper cadillac rocker pedistals on to some aluminum edelbrock heads..... Hence why I'm interested in building a Cadillac engine.

[Nothingface5384]

The Powerjection III runs at 45 PSI. If you get the return or returnless kit you will receive a gauge with the kit. That is what you asked right?

yea, just making sure i did infact have the right fpr

thanks

[theone61636]

The Powerjection III runs at 45 PSI. If you get the return or returnless kit you will receive a gauge with the kit. That is what you asked right?

Just as aside, why do the newer LS motors run with the fuel pressure so high, ~58psi? Does this affect fuel atomization in any way? I know you can sometimes up the fuel pressure to e able to fuel high horsepower if you don't want to buy bigger fuel injectors, but that will also max out the injectors pretty quick.

[theone61636]

Manageable? Sounds like another word for compromise to me. Jmo.

61636- increasing the pump pressure will max out the pump not necessarily the injectors. When you increase pressure to the injector you increase their output, but at the same time you decrease the output of the pump.
You're right they run higher pressure for better atomization, which also allows them to run smaller injectors for better low speed fuel control. It's all about emissions.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[Professor EFI]

Just as aside, why do the newer LS motors run with the fuel pressure so high, ~58psi? Does this affect fuel atomization in any way? I know you can sometimes up the fuel pressure to e able to fuel high horsepower if you don't want to buy bigger fuel injectors, but that will also max out the injectors pretty quick.

Supremeefi said it 100% correct. Best way to imagine this is a pressure washer vs a standard hose nozzle.

Something not mentioned is if you raise the fuel pressure too high you can actually stick an injector open. For obvious reasons this is bad. I believe this happens at about 80psi give or take a few.

If you choose to piece together a EFI system you should pay extra attention to your injector selection. Beside the fuel flow rate you should also pay attention to high and low impedance injectors. Depending on the system you have you will need to use the correct style. There are also different nozzle patterns.

[Dr. EFI]

Manageable? Sounds like another word for compromise to me. Jmo.



For someone like you or me there are never any issues. I can make any engine run like butter, but for the guys that don't have the knowledge or experience it becomes increasingly difficult to solve little drivability issues.

For example I could haveTheone61636's car fixed up in a day, and that's time to allow for the motor to completely cool down 3 times.

[nekkidhillbilly]

I wonder how long it will be before someone offers an aftermarket EFI with some kind of displacement on demand system. The LS engines get great gas mileage on the highway because they are running 4 cylinders.

I bet the mpg increase with that type of system would be much bigger. Of course the system would have to be multi-port. But I'm not sure what else is essential.

It would probably be best to have one coil per cylinder controlled by the computer. Would it hurt the engine to have a spark in a cylinder without fuel?

Is there anything else involved beyond turning off the injectors to certain cylinders?

John

actaully that doesent help the mpg that much as you think.most people have that tuned out and really dont loose any mpg. it may make it get 1 mpg better if that, helps the emissions though.

[TheSilverBuick]

actaully that doesent help the mpg that much as you think.most people have that tuned out and really dont loose any mpg. it may make it get 1 mpg better if that, helps the emissions though.


The DOD is hugely influenced by driving behavior. If you seem to get better mpg's than other's with the same vehicle, your mpg's will go up 3-5mpgs, if you seem to get dismal mpg's, then you will continue to get dismal mpgs because it'll rarely shut down the 4-cylinders.

My friend has a 2008 Pontiac GPX with the DOD 5.3L. It gets the exact same mpg's as the '99 Olds Alero with the 3.4L it replaced. High 20's were pretty common, maybe into the low 30's a time or two on the highway.