Help with indicator wiring - what did we do wrong?

[BuickStreet]

Ok, previously, my 66 Electra had some orange indicators screwed to the bumper. There used to be a law down in these parts that all indcators had to be amber. Recently, (as discussed in this thread (http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22206)) I discovered that I can return the car to it's original condition and that is where the red tail lights and brake lights flash to indicate a turn.

So, yesterday I went to an Auto electrician (I figured that I'd be better off getting someone who knew what they where doing :rolleyes: to do the work - I'm not much of a sparky) and he did what I thought was a good job of ggetting everything working. Let's start off with what he did to the rear...

Rear Tailights:
Turn the 'parkers' on and the rear lights come on. Put my foot on the brake and of the 3 rear lights the outer two come on brighter. Put my indicator on and the same two rear brake lights (on each side) flash brighter if the brakes aren't on and flash the brake lights if the brakes are on.

First question: What is normal? For just the brakes to flash on or for the entire rear lights to flash on and off (parkers and all)? I'd prefer the later. Makes for a stronger (safer) signal.


Front indicator lights:
Turn the parkers on and they come on. Put the indicator on and they flash brighter. They must be a dual filament light as well (didn't know that) so they flash between low light and bright light.

Second question:
What is normal? For just the stronger filament to flash on or for the entire light to flash on and off (parkers and all)? I'd prefer the later. Makes for a stronger (safer) signal.

Now for the Major Problem:
If I apply the brakes not only do the front parking lights come on but the indicator signal on the dash lights up as well! :eek2: Then when I switch on the (right or left) indicator the dash indicates that that side is flashing while the other side stays lit as well.

So, as I apply the brakes, people in front of me will see my front parking lights come on and off and think "what the hell is going on there?" and then if I indicate they will get further confused - especially if I'm on and off the brakes as sometimes happens in traffic when pulling up to a corner waiting to turn.

Obviously an unsafe situation let alone the annoyance of having both indicator lights come on inside the car every time I apply the brake. I don't trust that electrician anymore and so am stuck trying to fix this myself but I have no idea what goes where and what is happening to make this absurd situation occur.

I really hope there is an easy fix to this otherwise I'm in deep trouble because I removed the old (amber, stuck on) indicators and besides, we are too far in to back out now because the entire rear loom has been reworked and new plugs have been installed while he stripped out some of the old wiring trying to figure out how the guys who did the right hand conversion adjusted the original wiring.

It's a big mess so what I need to know is how did the lights work originally and why does applying my brakes cause everything to come on (front and back)? I hope someone can help me sort out this mess.

[73Electra 225]

Not sure if this helps, but this is how a '73 is wired. 4 bulbs on each side: Outers of each side are dual filament, 3 wired socket. Inners are single filament, dual wire socket. All the lights come on when you put on the lights. The outers are also the stop and directionals, hence the second filament. The wire for the second filament is green, coming out of the socket and eventuall goes to three places: headlight switch, fuse block, and I think the directional indicators on the dash (My '73 Chassis Manual includes a color coded electrical diagram if you're wondering how I know this). Might be alot different on yours. I would take a look at the sockets and see if any have an extra wire, which most likely would be your stop/directional feed.

[Marco]

Hi Bill -

I'm not sure what you car is supposed to do, but here's what mine does

Both front directionals and the four rear (2 left, 2 right) are double filament bulbs. We'll leave the reverse lights out of this.

No lights on -
Directionals will illuminate both filaments on either the left or the right side (3 bulbs - 1 front and 2 rear). Only the arrow in the interior dash will blink with the directional signals. Hit the brakes while the directional indicators are operating, the blinking side will completely darken (no filaments in both bulbs) and then brighten (both filaments in both bulbs) to signify the turn. The non blinking side will have both filaments in both rear bulbs lit to indicate braking.

Parking lights (or headlights) on -
One filament in each of the six bulbs (front 2 parking lights, rear 4 (2 each side)) are illuminated. Directionals will illuminate both filaments on either the left or the right side (3 bulbs - 1 front and 2 rear), while leaving the other three bulbs lit with 1 filament. Only the arrow in the interior dash will blink with the directional signals, in addition to the dash lights on due to the headlight switch. Hit the brakes while the directional indicators are operating, the blinking side will darken to only one filament and then brighten (both filaments in both bulbs). The non blinking side will have one filament in both bulbs lit.

Does this help, or am I confusing you. I think I'm confusing myself:gt:

PS - A chassis manual should have a wiring diagram for you.

[BuickStreet]

Thanks Zach and Marco.

So far it all seems to be setup the same way as both of your cars. The only difference is that when I put the brakes on, all corners light up (front and back) as well as both directional lights on the dash. The dash lights and the front parking/directional lights seem to be working as the rear tail/stop lights.

There must be some type of component that senses that the brake lights are only for the rear and stops it from going to the front of the car and the dash lights as well. I don't think he did anything under the dashboard and only worked in the trunk with the rear wiring.

I have a chassis manual and am currently looking for clues but I've never had to work from an electrical diagram like those before and am finding it all a bit confusing.

[BuickStreet]

I've had a look at the junction block that comes out of the indicator switch and compared the colors to the colors in the wiring diagram and it 'looks' ok.

What might cause the brake light signal to be sent through out the entire system and light up everything? Front park/indicator lights, dash/indicator lights and rear brake/indicator lights?

[yuk]

My guess would be that someone has tied your front blinker wires to your rear blinker wires ..... probably was done at the bottom of the steering column ..... can your see any spices down there?.... did the mechanic do ANY work under your dash? if not then he may not be the guilty one.

keep us posted on what you see.

as for the parking lights ... they should stay on while the blinker is blinkin .... they are a seperate circuit.

[telriv@msn.com]

Bill, check to see if any of the dual filiment bulbs are bad. I have run into this many times. The filiment breaks & hangs on the unbroken filiment which causes a back fed thru the wiring. The brake lights work thru the signal light switch before going to the rear. If you follow your brake light wire coming out of the brake light switch, you will see it 1st. goes into the signal switch harness on the colomn, then to the rear for the brake lights.
On another note. Have you checked your booster yet??? Tom

[BuickStreet]

Thanks Tom,

I just went out and replaced all the rear bulbs. I cleaned all the contacts at the same time. It's brighter but still the same. It must have something to do with the way the car was converted to right hand drive way back then and what they did to get the amber lights hooked up. Why can't anything ever go smoothly?

One thing I did notice is that the center bulbs (the Electra has 3 bulbs on each side at the rear) which should only ever act as tail lights are the same type of bulb (stop/tailight type). Would this make a diffence?

Will be measuring the power booster today. While I've gopt you Tom, your brake shoe money is on it's way as well and is in California as we speak. Should get to you early to mid week.

[Loyd]

Please pull all the bulbs in the brake light circuit across the back of the car. Some bulbs come with a single contact and some with double contacts. Make sure all the socket with double contacts have double contact bulbs.

The only place single contact bulbs should go in are single contact sockets, as a single contact bulb will cross connect double contact sockets, making the parking lights come on with the brake lights.

After checking this and eliminating this potential problem, let us know.

[BuickStreet]

Lloyd,

Have checked all bulbs in the back. All sockets are double contact and have double contact bulbs in them which are all brand new. I also sanded the contact and earth area clean so that there are no earthing issues.

Of the three bulbs one each side two (the outer two) have dual filament globes and each of those sockets has two wires going in. The center most bulb has a single wire going in but is a dual filament globe. Not sure which lights up when the parkers (or headlights) are on.

So I'd say that all is correct at the back. Haven't check the front yet but I know that they are dual filament globes becasue they light up with the parkers switched on and go even brighter when the indicator is on that side and when the brakes go on.

[BuickStreet]

I bit the bullet and rang a Mobile Auto Electrician who knew exactly what the problem was. "Someone has removed the old "Diode Box" :Do No: which is why they are behaving the way they are. I'll just run a new wire directly from the brake light switch to the back and install some diaodes on each side".

Oh...ok. :Do No: whatever. Go fo it. So he's out in the car park as we type doing the job. Should be ready in an hour or two. I'll let you know the results and we can close this thread.