Best way to lower emissions !!!

[Jerseysky66]

I know its not a Buick, but I need some help.

My 87 Monte Carlo 4.3 daily driver is due for emissions inspection :eek2:

Last time I barely passed.

I just changed the exhaust including the cat.

The car has a throttle body and has at least 165,000 miles.

I have not been using it much because the exhaust.

I believe it was tuned up least than 2,000 miles ago. I would have to check my paperwork.

Will the car pass because I put a new cat converter on?

What else can I do to lower the emissions??

Thank you,
Rob
jerseysky66

[BUICKRAT]

Buy a Prius?:Do No:

[Jerseysky66]

Buy a Prius?:Do No:

:ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball:

[Jerseysky66]

I have even a better way.

RIDE A BIKE :beers2: :beers2: :beers2: :beers2: :beers2:

[buick64203]

What did it fail for last time? HC's? CO? NOX? If you left it at the shop for the inspection, they could of ran the car when it was cold which would affect the readings. You guys are still dyno testing there on the early cars?

Isnt the test like 15 miles an hour or something? Geez, we were running them at 55-60! :eek2:

[bammax]

Emissions will be effected by the cats, the air pump, and the egr valve. On a Toyota we had we swapped out the cat because it failed emissions. With the new cat it actually did worse. They said it was probably a bad egr, but the car didn't actually have an egr. They were only on the California cars that particular year :Dou:

Best bet is to be friends with someone at an inspection station. I can't say any more than that :o

[Nailhead]

Move to PA!
John
:beers2:

[Jerseysky66]

What did it fail for last time? HC's? CO? NOX? If you left it at the shop for the inspection, they could of ran the car when it was cold which would affect the readings. You guys are still dyno testing there on the early cars?

Isnt the test like 15 miles an hour or something? Geez, we were running them at 55-60! :eek2:

I failed last time because I was a big dummy and forgot to hook up a vacuum line :Dou:

I found the paperwork from when I barely passed. Here are the numbers.

For some reason I don't see any numbers for NOx, It says the standard for HC is 100 and my reading was 100. For CO the standard is 0.50 and the reading was 0.47. The RPM - 2394.

I think the last tune up was just before I took it last time. I drove just under 2,000 miles since.

They still do the dyno test. They only check emissions now during inspection. My mechanic has the set-up just does not inspect anymore. I might take a quick run up to his shop and put it on the machine.

maybe you will have a couple ideas for me

Thanks,
Rob

[Jerseysky66]

Emissions will be effected by the cats, the air pump, and the egr valve. On a Toyota we had we swapped out the cat because it failed emissions. With the new cat it actually did worse. They said it was probably a bad egr, but the car didn't actually have an egr. They were only on the California cars that particular year :Dou:

Best bet is to be friends with someone at an inspection station. I can't say any more than that :o

I am not sure why my mechanic does not do inspections anymore. Maybe the state of New Jersey Inspection is the only way to inspect anymore. I might be able to take it to a certified emissions shop. I will have to see. Thanks, Rob

[Jerseysky66]

Move to PA!
John
:beers2:

Hey John,

Maybe I can move next door to you :beers2: :beers2: :beers2:

I have thought about getting out of Jersey.

I like PA because there are tons of car guys.

Are you going to E-Town???

I will be riding my bike tomorrow morning. I don't think I will be there Sat.

[sean Buick 76]

I would run some sea foam in the tank, and in the oil... Take it for a good long drive then change the oil and make sure the plugs are clean and not fouled.

I have had good luck with beating on the car before testing to make sure there is no carbon in the engine.

[RG67BEAST]

I had a 87 monte with a v6. The carb needed work to pass. The garage told me that year carb was finicky. Lucky for me the guys at the garage messed with it to pass. That car is long gone but I routinely do work to other peoples cars to get them to pass.
A new egr valve usually will help NOX levels if they are high. Check for vacuum leaks. A tune-up with plugs, wires, cap will help with the HC and CO even if the engine doesn't seem to be missing. A fresh oil change helps as well as having the engine hot so the converter burns off hydro carbons (HC) before the test. If there is alot of blowby though it is not legal or recommended you can slit a v notch in the hose off the PCV and plug it inside the hose at the carb.
Though I've not used it like Sean says that seafoam is what alot guys swear by to clean an engine out.
Ray

[Jerseysky66]

Thanks Sean and Ray.
They sell the seafoam at ace hardware :TU: .
I will look over everything mentioned.

[jimzturbobuick]

4.3s are notorious for bad EGR valves. Another trick is to run fuel tank almost empty, put 3-5 gallons E-85 in for the test, get it as close to the testing station as possible. Make sure to fill ASAP with unleaded as the e-85 is not good for that fuel system

[RG67BEAST]

If the egr valve are notoriously bad one thing you can do is while it's idling press the diaphram with one of your fingers. If it wants to stall the engine the egr passage is clear and the diaphram likely works. You could always take it off and clean it to be sure it moves freely and make sure it holds suction. It is supposed to open with a certain amount of vacuum. If you have NO on the emission test form this is NOX.
Here is an example of just changing two year old plugs and an oil change on a freinds 96 LT1 I recently did. Nothing else. Before and after the change. This one failed NOX and the egr works, holds vacuum, opens smoothly with vacuum but will get a new one. Motor runs exellent too. I'm surprised it failed. It opens up smoothly as it is brake torqued. Also many times a different emissions center will have different results. :rolleyes:
25mph/40km............curb idle
.......bfr......aftr....bfr....aftr
HC.. 29........8.......17.....7
CO...08.......01......00.....00
NO..975....919..limit .313

Ray

[buick64203]

On the Snap On/Sun tester we used in NY, there was a way to manipulate the drive trace to make the car pass or fail NOX at will. :Brow:

[skierkaj]

Run some 5W-20 . . . Ford has been doing it for years . . .

Apparently that's the only reason they switched over to a 5W-20 vs a 5W-30.

[RG67BEAST]

On the Snap On/Sun tester we used in NY, there was a way to manipulate the drive trace to make the car pass or fail NOX at will. :Brow:
That's just not right. Thanks for the info..I told the guy to take it somewhere else as I can't see why it would fail (even the coolant is super clean) but he is snappin. No money, 3 kids and works 4hrs away from home so he's only home on the weekends. Cars been off the road for over a month now. This is really messing his family life up as he uses his wifes car right now so she's not happy. I'll get him to take it elsewhere before changing it and relay the info.. I'll report back with the results.
Ray

[kwanderi]

I've heard that isopropyl alcohol added to the gas will reduce emmisions long enough to pass the test.

[Stampy]

Run some 5W-20 . . . Ford has been doing it for years . . .

Apparently that's the only reason they switched over to a 5W-20 vs a 5W-30.

I always thought it was a conspiracy. Good way to get a bunch of people's engines to start blowing smoke and send them scurrying into the dealership to trade up...

[Phil]

I just had this problem with my 95 Tahoe. It passed emissions fine 2 years ago but when it came due this year it failed miserably. First the testing facility made me install a new muffler and tailpipe sinc ethey found a leak, then I figured I'd clean the plugs and do basic tuneup stuff and the HCs were WAY high.

My brother-in-law the Chevy mechanic took it into the shop and retarded the timing and took it back to get it tested. It failed by .02 points. So we replaced the catalytic converter and at the retest it passed better than it would have rolling off the line. He set the timing back to stock after the retest. It seems the culprit was a bad catalytic converter.

You need to know if it's the HC's, NOx or CO that's out of whack so you know what to focus on when you try and repair the system.

My buddy had a 79 Monte Carlo with a well built 350 that only had dual high-flow cats on it for emissions equipment and he had to retard the timing WAY low in order to pass emissions but it passed.

[chris roesch]

In wisconsin to get a collector plate my buick had to get tested, this was when I first got the car and had no idea about anything car related.
I was happy when the people at the test station said that that the car had just a trace, and that the newer cars dont run that clean. Now that it passed and I got my plates, I decided to start replacing parts on the car. lo and behold, I get underneath the car and see the big holes rusted in the tail pipes!:laugh:

[chris roesch]

I have always run the car hard to get it nice and hot, made sure I had just enough gas to get to a station after the test, and dumped a bottle if isopropel in the tank

[whamo]

If it failed because it had high HC/CO levels you can dissconect a small vacum hose (introduce a small vac leak) to lean it out at idle. To much of a vac leak and your CO will be fine, but the HC will be too high
This also means that if your CO-levels are ok, but HC-levels are too high during a test and you didn't pull any hoses,
you probably already have a vacuum leak somewhere...
You may be able to lower HC levels by altering the timing.

[Hawken]

:Brow: Hypothetically speaking, you should be able to buy a gallon of ethanol alcohol (not isopropyl) from a local chemical supply store. You can add this to your fuel tank (1/8 or 1/16 full) to get a 15% to 20% alcohol to gas mix before the emissions test and run the car at higher speeds to get the engine nice and warm, then pull it in for the emissions test. As soon as the test is over, fill the rest of the tank with gas to dillute the remaining alcohol and burn it out.

Hypothetically speaking - if you know what I mean - non-California emission vehicles used to pass the California standards for emission .... all the time using this process.:Smarty:

[Jerseysky66]

Looks like I failed :blast:

They no longer use the dyno test. I was thinking maybe that would be a better test with the dyno for my 80's car. I used the seafoam and it was running great. I changed the plugs and the car started running bad. It is kind of like a hesitation and the car bucks while I am trying to slow down. It feels like I don't have enough octane or clogged injector. The car has done this in the past and I always put injection cleaner in. I was thinking about opening the spark plug gap a little bit. I checked the plugs before I put them in and they were around .38. I believe I had the old plugs were around .40. I will pick up some more injector cleaner and try that. I did not check the timing. So that will another thing to check.

I have till the end of next month to pass. I will have to work on it when I get back from Carlisle.

My CO reading was 1.65 and the standard is 1.20. . My HC ppm reading was 211 and the standard is 220

[bhambulldog]

This is all new information for me. We don't have inspection in Alabama.

[bammax]

seafoam generally will make the car run worse for a while as all the sludge gets broken up and passed through the system. Make sure you do an oil change too after all that crap gets passed through.

Here they changed the test to plug in on obd2 and check for smoke on '95 and older cars. Alot better than the old dyno days where certain places would screw you for repairs that weren't needed. I have a buddy that does inspections and he said most of the cars fail because the inspection station doesn't clean the filters in the machine. It causes a bit of a backpressure which makes the machine read stagnent air. Almost like a big EGR setup.

[Jerseysky66]

seafoam generally will make the car run worse for a while as all the sludge gets broken up and passed through the system. Make sure you do an oil change too after all that crap gets passed through.

Here they changed the test to plug in on obd2 and check for smoke on '95 and older cars. Alot better than the old dyno days where certain places would screw you for repairs that weren't needed. I have a buddy that does inspections and he said most of the cars fail because the inspection station doesn't clean the filters in the machine. It causes a bit of a backpressure which makes the machine read stagnent air. Almost like a big EGR setup.

I already dumped the oil that had the seafoam mixed. I might have had around a quarter tank full of gas that was mixed with the seafoam after the oil change. I added $20 which is about 5 gallons of gas. I am going to buy a different fuel cleaner to help it run better. In the past I have been able to calm the car down from bucking this way. Let me take a ride.
Thanks,
Rob

[skierkaj]

You said you changed plugs and it ran worse . . .

What brand plugs did you put in it?

[Jerseysky66]

You said you changed plugs and it ran worse . . .

What brand plugs did you put in it?

I was thinking about that before some.

I used ac delco R45TS and 45TS. I had some of these plugs in the garage already and I could only come up with 4 R45TS and 2 45TS. I believe one of the 45TS plugs were shorter because it was an older version. I was not sure if I could mix them or not and I thought the R stood for resistance and that was for radio noise only. Looks like that might be the problem :spank:

At this point I am ready to start all over with the tune up and replace everything.

What kind of plugs should I buy???
What Brand Distributor Cap and rotor should I buy?
I believe the wires only have 2,000 miles on them.

Thanks,
Rob

[buick64203]

As far as the CO, how old is the O2 sensor?

HC's are affected by tune up parts- plugs, cap, rotor, wires. Also change the oil and filter right before the re-test

[Jerseysky66]

Not sure the age of the sensor. I have had the car for 7 years and never changed it. The service engine light has come on and off a bunch of times.
I did jump the number one and # two pins on the testing port and came up with one flash and one flash for the #11. Not sure what that number means. The chart I found on-line did not mention that number. Maybe I was doing it wrong or it just was not listed.

I will add the O2 sensor to the list.


Thanks,
Rob

[buick64203]

Not sure the age of the sensor. I have had the car for 7 years and never changed it. The service engine light has come on and off a bunch of times.
I did jump the number one and # two pins on the testing port and came up with one flash and one flash for the #11. Not sure what that number means. The chart I found on-line did not mention that number. Maybe I was doing it wrong or it just was not listed.

I will add the O2 sensor to the list.


Thanks,
Rob

I have all the GM Exper-tech books for your year car. If I remember correctly (its been a while since I fixed an OBD 1), Its supposed to flash a code 12 first, then flash the fault code or codes, them finish the sequence with a code 12 again. Then start all over.

We need to find out exactly what code we have in there first before we start just throwing parts at it

[Jerseysky66]

Jason,
I believe the codes are

12, 12, 12, 44, 44, 44, and it went back to 12. If you have any info please let me know :TU:

Thanks,
Rob

[roboteq-1@hotma]

On the Snap On/Sun tester we used in NY, there was a way to manipulate the drive trace to make the car pass or fail NOX at will. :Brow:
No longer- the new units are sealed and state certified ( at least in Caliphonia ) . Best bet? hypothetically speaking of course- slip the guy testing a a bill and let him run the Honda thats in for a brake job on your test...:bla:

[buick64203]

No longer- the new units are sealed and state certified ( at least in Caliphonia ) . Best bet? hypothetically speaking of course- slip the guy testing a a bill and let him run the Honda thats in for a brake job on your test...:bla:

Yes, and the reason Im out of a job. I used to repair the ones in NY:ball:

[buick64203]

Code 44 is "lean exhaust detected". An oxygen sensor curcuit. Good guess right? :laugh:

Here is the information I have on what you should check-

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr188/mr-trishield/CIMG4986.jpg

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr188/mr-trishield/CIMG4985.jpg

[bammax]

:gp:

For futre reference code 12 tells you that the connection is good and that you are comunicating with the ecm. The trouble codes will follow after 12 and then after all of them are shown it'll go back to 12. Every code is flashed 3 times to make sure you don't misread any.

You only have 1 code and it's code 44

[r0ckstarr]

I've also heard, (don't know how true it is), that if you run the car hard before the emissions test and get the catalytic converters nice and hot, you have a better chance of passing.



This is all new information for me. We don't have inspection in Alabama.

You're lucky. I went through all kinds of hell trying to get a Chevy powered Suzuki Samurai to pass. Most places wouldn't even touch it because of the engine swap. Eventually I found a place that would. They checked emissions on one exhaust pipe (true duals, no cats, only mufflers), so actually, they only tested 3 cylinders, and it passed.

[Jerseysky66]

Jason, Thanks a bunch for posting that info. I see it can be a few more things than the O2 sensor. This car always runs funny if I got some bad fuel. I hope that all the fuel being sold around here is bad or not what is supposed to be. Looks like it could be cause by an exhaust leak also. I did just replace the exhaust. I think I might have a friend that has a scanner to check the voltages.

I don't think I will get a chance to work on it until after Carlisle swap meet. I must have about 20 to 25 spaces worth of stuff at my house and I am sharing 3 spaces with a friend :puzzled: . I should be on that show Hoarders :eek2: :eek2: . I will have a few Buick parts going with me. I will get a list of what I have on another post. Today I have a friend coming over to try and clean my 3 car barn out. I told my wife the mess will get worse before it gets better :Smarty: . I can't wait until it is organized and I can get the cars in and out easy.

If I can't get the scanner I might change the O2 sensor and see what happens. Stupid Autozone did not have a scanner for testing for my car. They wanted me to buy one for $30. I don't want this car to be an endless money pit.

Rob

[Jerseysky66]

:gp:

For futre reference code 12 tells you that the connection is good and that you are comunicating with the ecm. The trouble codes will follow after 12 and then after all of them are shown it'll go back to 12. Every code is flashed 3 times to make sure you don't misread any.

You only have 1 code and it's code 44

Thanks for posting. Hopefully I will sell this mid 80's car this summer and I will no longer have to worry about pulling codes :idea2: The car needs more attention than I can give it. I need to start on my Buick's next :beers2:

[Jerseysky66]

I've also heard, (don't know how true it is), that if you run the car hard before the emissions test and get the catalytic converters nice and hot, you have a better chance of passing.




You're lucky. I went through all kinds of hell trying to get a Chevy powered Suzuki Samurai to pass. Most places wouldn't even touch it because of the engine swap. Eventually I found a place that would. They checked emissions on one exhaust pipe (true duals, no cats, only mufflers), so actually, they only tested 3 cylinders, and it passed.

Brian, I tried to heat the car up well. I drove it 20 miles and when I got there they must of had my car running for 10 to 15 minutes before they even tested it. It reminded me of the old days before the dyno. Every single car would have the same thing done. Flash forward many years and I was the odd ball with the only 80's car :error: . Like you said I am lucky. Plus I have a lot of great help from this site.

Thanks,
Rob

[bammax]

Don't need a code reader or scanner. You already did it. code 44 is the only code present.

As for the o2's alot of people have bad things to say about the Bosch sensors, but we used them on our car and they worked perfectly. The trick is to get matched sets. If one is bad and you swap it than the new one may read quicker and more accuritely than the old one on the other side. If that happens you'll get the same code back because the ecm thinks the old sensor is bad now.

I'm guessing you already tested the egr valve to make sure it's working right?

[71skylark3504v]

This is all new information for me. We don't have inspection in Alabama.


Shhhh!!! Don't tell people that. They will want to move here!:bla:

[Jerseysky66]

Don't need a code reader or scanner. You already did it. code 44 is the only code present.

As for the o2's alot of people have bad things to say about the Bosch sensors, but we used them on our car and they worked perfectly. The trick is to get matched sets. If one is bad and you swap it than the new one may read quicker and more accuritely than the old one on the other side. If that happens you'll get the same code back because the ecm thinks the old sensor is bad now.

I'm guessing you already tested the egr valve to make sure it's working right?

Please let me know how to test the egr valve. I just don't have time now to do a search on-line.

Thanks,
Rob

[bammax]

Here's a quick little writeup with pics someone did. I always just use the press the diaphram test

http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/egrvalve.htm

[Jerseysky66]

Man what a pain to install the O2 sensor. I had to lay on top of the engine for a half hour. I am sure there must be a trick of special tool.

Thanks for posting about the EGR.

Rob

[Junkman]

Wait a minute.....there are 3 nuclear plants in Japan emitting dangerous amounts of radiation contaminating the world not to mention Chernobyl along with countless volcanos spewing harmful gasses into the atmosphere, but all your State is worried about is your little car? :puzzled: Just kidding!

[austingta]

Shhhh!!! Don't tell people that. They will want to move here!:bla:

I grew up a car nut in B'ham, and moved to Austin 30 years ago. I still remember all the wrecked cars, and others, driving around with lights out.

There are many states with no or minimal inspection requirements:

States without safety or emissions inspections

Alabama (limited)
Arkansas
Florida
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Michigan
Minnesota
Montana
North Dakota
Oklahoma
South Carolina
South Dakota
Wyoming

[bhambulldog]

Shhhh!!! Don't tell people that. They will want to move here!:bla:
:Dou: There's no room for anymore folks. We've got 4 million here now!:laugh:

[Jerseysky66]

Looks like the O2 did the trick :beers2: :beers2: .

It is still running a little funny :puzzled:

It used to only run this way when I had some bad gas or not enough octane :eek2:

Seems like it is doing it not as bad with the new O2 sensor

I wonder if the are doing something to the gas I am buying :rant: :rant: :rant:

I am paying for high test and is that what I am really getting :confused: