MPFI manifold, MS Q's

[tt_skylark]

Here are some pics of the manifold I am working on for my 350, should have the valley on and thermostat housing mocked up soon as well. Also in the pics are my roller rocker setup on a mockup shaft, should work pretty good!

My next part to figure out is the FI and timing, I had intended to go with the MS system and need whatever advice those that have gone down that road may have!
Any advice, links for information or places to pick up the parts would be great

[TheSilverBuick]

I get all my MS stuff and wiring harness stuff from DIYautotune.com. They are good guys there.

You'll probably have to have more specific questions to get decent answers, otherwise I'll I can say is to be sure to read the MegaManual extensively and repeatedly.

[GSX1]

interesting rocker set up What type of arms are they ? what ratio are they ?
Nice work on the intake
Dave

[tt_skylark]

The rockers are stainless steel roller tip, 1.6-1 for SBC I am making shafts to fit the SBB. I can use roller bearings or bushed, I was leaning toward bushed just in case of major failure I can just replace the rocker and not have needle bearing floating around.... what do you guys think?

Maybe someone out their can help me with the shaft material selection, I was going to use stainless steel, but was not sure if it would be hard enough?

I guess I need to re read the mega manual a few more time since it has been a while, then I can ask more specific questions.
Thanks!

[BRUCE ROE]

Here are some pics of the manifold I am working on for my 350,

My next part to figure out is the FI and timing, I had intended to go with the MS system and need whatever advice those that have gone down that road may have!
Any advice, links for information or places to pick up the parts would be great

I didn't see any injectors or bungs. How will they go? With multiport you
could go sequential, but will need a "cam sensor". High impedance
injectors? good luck, Bruce Roe

[tt_skylark]

I have not drilled the runners for the bungs yet, they will be very close to the cylinder head. I can get them aimed pretty close to the back of the intake valve.
I am looking at doing sequential FI now that the MS3 will do it, I think.

Has anyone found a good way to put a cam sensor on a 350?
Thanks!

[pmuller9]

Has anyone found a good way to put a cam sensor on a 350?
Thanks!

Plan A:

Assuming you are using a crank trigger for the MS3.

Get a MSD reluctor PN 8627 and a MSD Magnetic Pickup PN 84661.
Grind off all but one pole on the reluctor.
Remove point cam stuff from the distributor shaft.
Install the reluctor on the distributor shaft.This may require some machine work.
Temporarily use a set screw to position it on the shaft.
Install the pickup on the distributor base.
Install the distributor on the engine and set the crank at the timing mark for maximum boost. (that might be around 20 degrees BTDC).
Set the distributor rotor so it is phased right at the cap post for that setting and lock it down.
Now move the crank to 70 degrees BTDC and position the reluctor pole to point right at the center of the pickup and tighten the set screw.
We usually do a single tack weld to hold the reluctor in place at this point.

We do MSD distributors but have never done a stock Buick

The only question is if there is enough room height wise for the pickup.

Plan B:

Since you are using a MS3 with 8 ignition coil drive outputs, go distributorless.
Distributor phasing problems go away.
You can install the MSD reluctor and pickup without rotor clearance problems.
Just make an aluminum cap to replace the regular distributor cap.

I hope you don't mind such a detailed post

Paul

[tt_skylark]

more detail the better, I have the ability and am gaining the knowledge.
I am running a MSD dist now. Would I still need to do the mods to it?
Thanks!

[tt_skylark]

If you have any pics that would be great!
Thanks!:TU:

[pmuller9]

more detail the better, I have the ability and am gaining the knowledge.
I am running a MSD dist now. Would I still need to do the mods to it?
Thanks!

Are you doing a crank trigger so you can use the MSD distributor strictly for the cam sync?

Which MSD distributor do you have (Part Number)?

Sorry I don't have any pictures. I did these mods on customer cars.

Paul

[tt_skylark]

MSD dist part #8548

I need to re read the mega manual a few more times to get a handle on all the parts I will need, I thought I needed to get one of the for wheels for my crank trigger, I am open to use whatever works best also keeping an eye on the $

Has anyone looked at the cost of going distributor less?

[pmuller9]

MSD dist part #8548

I need to re read the mega manual a few more times to get a handle on all the parts I will need, I thought I needed to get one of the for wheels for my crank trigger, I am open to use whatever works best also keeping an eye on the $

Has anyone looked at the cost of going distributor less?

You can use the MSD 4 magnet trigger wheel on the crank with the MSD non-magnetic pickup.
Then use the VR input settings on the MS3.

Now you can use the MSD 8548 distributor for the cam sync signal.

You will still have to modify the distributor so it only puts out one pulse per distributor revolution by removing 7 of the 8 poles on the reluctor.
The problem is the remaining pole is not in the right position timing wise if you are using the rotor and cap with ignition wires. Explaination:

The MS3 needs the timing pulses from the crank trigger to be at least 10* before the most advanced timing you are going to map. So lets say the timing can go out as far as 45* BTDC meaning the crank trigger must be set to at least 55* BTDC. The cam signal must be set to at least 10* before the crank trigger which brings it out to 65* BTDC. I usually set the cam signal at 70*BTDC.

The next timing event to consider is the rotor to cap phasing. The spark energy needs to be maximized when the cylinder pressure is the greatest or at max boost. For 16 lbs+ of manifold pressure the timing is usually in the low 20s so the rotor must be pointing dead center on the cap tower at that point.

We need the rotor lined up with the cap tower at around 20* and the reluctor pole to line up with the pickup at 70*. You may be able to get everything aligned by using the MSD adjustable rotor. If not then the reluctor must be rotated on the shaft and reset.

I have not been able to salvage the original reluctor and found it easier to get the replacement so the original can be machined off. We install the new one (after removing 7 of the 8 poles) with a set screw and after getting it timed, just do a single tack weld to keep it in place.

Of coarse the rotor phasing is eliminated by going distributor less.
The cheapest way is to go to the auto salvage yard and get a used set of LS1 or LS2 coils with the wire harness so you have the connectors.
The MS3 will trigger them directly.
I saw the cleanest setup 2 weekends ago where the coils where mounted on a plate attached center on the firewall.

Paul

[tt_skylark]

So if I get the coil packs would I still need to use the dist as my cam sensor, or would it just be to run the oil pump?
Thanks!

[pmuller9]

So if I get the coil packs would I still need to use the dist as my cam sensor, or would it just be to run the oil pump?
Thanks!

Yes, you would still need to use the distributor as the cam sensor
the difference would be that you would remove the 7 out of 8 poles on the reluctor, install the distributor on the engine, set the crank to 70* BTDC, turn the distributor till the pole lined up with the center of the pickup, lock the distributor down and you are done.
No rotor to cap phasing to be concerned about and maximum spark throughout the timing range with no worries about spark arching over to the wrong tower on the distributor cap during high boost.

Paul

[BRUCE ROE]

You can buy an EFI distributor with
a cam sensor included. One other approach is get an HEI from a 76-79
Seville or 79 Eldo. Their HEI has a couple extra switches (speed sensors)
which close once per cam/HEI revolution. The original intent was to fire
the 2 banks of injectors, but I was able to use one as a cam sensor when
converting my 79 Eldo (403) to sequential injection.

And i have one EFI from a couple decades ago (FIRST). It put a
sensor around the #1 plug wire, guess a timing light pickup could
be used this way. Bruce Roe

[tt_skylark]

Ah I see! The 8 coil pack system to spoke of earlier that was mounted on the firewall, did they just use long wires to each spark plug?
I was thinking of making a bracket to mount a coil on plug system that bolts on the head in the unused threaded holes on top of the exhaust ports, it would also double as a head shield......

Thank you guys for all the help and knowledge!:laugh:

[pmuller9]

Ah I see! The 8 coil pack system to spoke of earlier that was mounted on the firewall, did they just use long wires to each spark plug?


Yes, they used long wires.


I was thinking of making a bracket to mount a coil on plug system that bolts on the head in the unused threaded holes on top of the exhaust ports, it would also double as a head shield......


Sounds Good and as always, the shorter the plug wires the better.

Paul

[pmuller9]

I have a few questions if you don't mind sharing.

What size and brand turbochargers do you have?
What are you going to use to control boost?
What boost levels are you looking at using?

Paul

[tt_skylark]

I will dig the turbos out and let you know what they are.
I was looking at running a EBC electronic boost control solenoid, probably one from diyauto and controlling it with the MS3.
I am looking at 12-15lbs of boost but trying to set it all up to allow up to 20lbs.... we will see how that goes.
In addition to the air to air intercooler I would like to install a water/methanol injection system.
All budget petmitting:3gears:

[tt_skylark]

I am about to weld this intake together, but before I do can anyone point me toward more information on plenum volumes? Just want some more input....
Thanks!:beer

[pmuller9]

I am about to weld this intake together, but before I do can anyone point me toward more plenum volumesThanks!:beer
I'm not sure how much additional information on plenum volumes would apply in your situation.

Consider that at WOT all volume between the supercharger and the engine which includes the intercooler, contributes to the plenum volume.
Also since you are port injected the considerations for wet manifold design disappear.

The one change I noticed from our Racepak Data is when we switched from a single plane to a manifold similar to yours with lots of volume,
at boost levels above 25 lbs, the engine did not shut down the instant the throttle plate closed.

I think you should weld it up and see how it responds. It looks Great!

Paul

[sean Buick 76]

I am about to weld this intake together, but before I do can anyone point me toward more information on plenum volumes? Just want some more input....
Thanks!:beer
Is this car for drag racing only or some street use?

The bottom line is that the "slightly boosted air" in the manifold under part throttle helps reduce the "lag" when the throttle is floored. Because the manifold contains a volume of boosted air it is easier to get the boost to rise quickly. Gale Banks calls this "gulp capacity". For an all out race car this is of little concern, for a street car this is very important!:beers2: At WOT once at full boost there is not need for much plenum volume, it is just the transition from low boost to high boost that requires a larger plemun.

It looks about right to me for the plenum size. I would not go any smaller, the volume will help keep your boost rise quickly!:3gears:

Tell us more about the combo:

What rod length?

What compression?

What size turbos?

Did you sort out the "gaskets to go" head gaskets, i know you were having an issue there... Mine are still in the box, so I am not able to help you there...

[tt_skylark]

The rods are forged carrillo, they are about .100 longer than stock, I narrowed them to fit the buick crank and had to clearance them just a bit for the cam them with the custom diamond pistons I had it all balanced.
Compression comes out at 8.9-1, it should be ok with the intercooler setup and meth injection.
The turbos are a t04e journal bearing .50a/r comp and .63 turbine, fairly inexpensive. It will leave room for upgrades later, having to be budget minded......

I started with one of Burtons kits....... lets just say that didn't work out, it was scrapped and did my own fab work.
Serves me right:Dou:

the burton kit will be for sale on here very soon, for cheap!

[tt_skylark]

The gaskets to go is still waiting to be sorted, they want me to send them back and let them have another try at it.....
The bores are not even the same and all are too small and hang into the cylinder!:rant:

[sean Buick 76]

The gaskets to go is still waiting to be sorted, they want me to send them back and let them have another try at it.....
The bores are not even the same and all are too small and hang into the cylinder!:rant:

I guess I need to send mine back as they are still in the box... What overbore are yours?

[tt_skylark]

They were supposed to be .040 over, they range from .012 to .035. I spoke with a guy from the company and he told me that I may be able to just open them up a bit.... My response was that I did not pay the money for these gaskets to have to modify them to work as ordered.

[TheSilverBuick]

I'm kinda late to the game so I may be repeating someone.

The Grand National cam sensor should drop right in to the 350 and looks fairly clean. Removing/grinding off part of the reluctor works too. VERY interesting on the cadillac distributors, I'll defiantely take a look at one of those next time I see one in a junkyard.

On the crank trigger, I'm thinking if you are going sequential you might as well go with a higher resolution trigger wheel, a 36-1 or more just to be sure you nail the timing relative to where the crankshaft is. The cam sensor is more for injector timing phasing. The rule I've heard on that one is lock your injectors to stop spraying when the intake valve closes, so as the duty cycle increases they are spraying earlier but stopping at the same time relative to the intake valve. Back to the trigger wheel, have you seen my thread on going distributorless? Some of what I've done may apply pretty easily to the 350.

[tt_skylark]

I have been fallowing your distributor less post as well, I am running into packaging issues with the coil packs.
I was hoping to mount them off the un-used threaded holes by the exhaust ports but I don't have enough room with the turbo setup.... also the heat may be too much for them.
I am weighing the pro's and con's of coil packs and sequential FI vs using my MSD dist and doing bank firing of the injectors, from my research so far my gains will be minimal with the sequential FI and I can still retard the timing with the MS3.
As always any input is welcome, as I am always learning!!!:TU:

[TheSilverBuick]

Looking at your wild intake, what keeps you from mounting the coil packs on the firewall and running the wires through the air gap between the intake and lifter valley? The wires wouldn't be much longer than a stock system, it's something I'd try with a quality set of wires and a good set of coils.

Kinda like I did with my injector wires only you have more room under there. The beauty of not having a distributor in the back there.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/60/m_50f6a8bb385c4302948b3f1811a6d517.jpg


Mounting the coils in a similar place to where I have my relay board mounted on the firewall.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/3/l_09b292135dd84ab094e7cd1988dc804c.jpg

[TheSilverBuick]

I am weighing the pro's and con's of coil packs and sequential FI vs using my MSD dist and doing bank firing of the injectors, from my research so far my gains will be minimal with the sequential FI and I can still retard the timing with the MS3.
As always any input is welcome, as I am always learning!!!:TU:


Also it's not like you can't upgrade later, it's a minimal expense to set it up one way then convert later versus setting it up from the start. I'm not positive, but I think MS3 with sequential injection can balance the injectors, meaning if you have a cylinder running lean because of head/intake design you can richen just that cylinder. Which in some cases might be worth a bit. You need to be able to read the AFR's on individual cylinders though, or be an awesome plug reader.

[pmuller9]

If you don't already have an ignition box with a coil you will have to buy one.
If you get coil packs now then you don't have the expense of the ign box and coil.

Also when the timing is being varied over a 25 degree range it is nice not to be bothered with distributor rotor to cap phasing. I would go individual coil just for that alone.

I also second what TheSilverBuick posted

Paul

[TheSilverBuick]

If you don't already have an ignition box with a coil you will have to buy one.
If you get coil packs now then you don't have the expense of the ign box and coil.



MegaSquirt doesn't need a separate ignition box, it can drive a single HEI or points coil directly. So cost the first way really is only the coil which will range between $15 and $75 depending how fancy you want to get with it. I guess you can include the cap, rotor and wires though too. In either case I call it a minimal cost. I ran about a year before I got a separate 6AL-2 box (for the 2-step rev limiter really) all the while having the MSII control timing.

[pmuller9]

MegaSquirt doesn't need a separate ignition box, it can drive a single HEI or points coil directly. So cost the first way really is only the coil which will range between $15 and $75 depending how fancy you want to get with it. I guess you can include the cap, rotor and wires though too. In either case I call it a minimal cost. I ran about a year before I got a separate 6AL-2 box (for the 2-step rev limiter really) all the while having the MSII control timing.

Thanks for the info.
Anxious to see your engine running.
Paul

[TheSilverBuick]

No problem :)

[tt_skylark]

I hear ya, I will probably go with the sequential injection when I do the MS3 and I am still undecided about the coil packs. We will see what is left in the coffee can when I get to that point, I have a good dist, coil and new wires now I may leave the coil pack setup for after I have it running as I still need to to do all the tranny mount/drive shaft fab, exhaust, re rout my steering....... and whatever else pops up!

Do you guys think its worth using a stock LS coil pack setup, or aftermarket?
Price?

A O2 sensor would be great for each cylinder but I think it would be cost prohibitive. Am always open to ideas.... maybe a bung with a plug and I just rotate the sensor?

This is going to be one of my favorite daily street cars, very little track if at all:beers2:

Thanks!

[pmuller9]

I hear ya, I will probably go with the sequential injection when I do the MS3 and I am still undecided about the coil packs. We will see what is left in the coffee can when I get to that point, I have a good dist, coil and new wires now I may leave the coil pack setup for after I have it running as I still need to to do all the tranny mount/drive shaft fab, exhaust, re rout my steering....... and whatever else pops up!

Do you guys think its worth using a stock LS coil pack setup, or aftermarket?
Price?

A O2 sensor would be great for each cylinder but I think it would be cost prohibitive. Am always open to ideas.... maybe a bung with a plug and I just rotate the sensor?

This is going to be one of my favorite daily street cars, very little track if at all:beers2:

Thanks!

There seems to be a quality issue with aftermarket coil packs.
The recommendation is to only use GM coil packs.
The LS2 packs are also preferred because they deliver a higher energy spark.

One O2 sensor for each side for a total of two is sufficient.
If a person must monitor each cylinder, using EGTs is a good method but still is not cheap.

Paul

[sean Buick 76]

There seems to be a quality issue with aftermarket coil packs.
The recommendation is to only use GM coil packs.
The LS2 packs are also preferred because they deliver a higher energy spark.

One O2 sensor for each side for a total of two is sufficient.
If a person must monitor each cylinder, using EGTs is a good method but still is not cheap.

Paul

Yes, add a bung in each exhaust primary so you can add an EGT into each cylinder one at a time to monitor them. That is what I am doing. Eventually I will have all 8 feeding info to the computer...

[TheSilverBuick]

I personally think a single O2 is sufficient because if both banks aren't running the same you have bigger issues. When looking for that last few percent of HP the balancing the AFRs between cylinders is the way to go. Almost always when tuning for HP you are really tuning to the leanest cylinder if you don't want to hurt parts.

[pmuller9]

I personally think a single O2 is sufficient because if both banks aren't running the same you have bigger issues. When looking for that last few percent of HP the balancing the AFRs between cylinders is the way to go. Almost always when tuning for HP you are really tuning to the leanest cylinder if you don't want to hurt parts.

We run 8 EGTs so we can monitor if anything goes wrong with any cylinder.

We also just use one O2 but we also monitor both turbo exhaust pressures to keep an eye on the wastegates.

Paul

[TheSilverBuick]

EGT's work too. Do you ever find a wide range of variance in temps between cylinders?

[pmuller9]

EGT's work too. Do you ever find a wide range of variance in temps between cylinders?

Drag racing with turbochargers presents its own set of problems.
In order to have boost in time for launch, you foot brake WOT on a 3 step limiter coming into the staging beam, then transbrake WOT on the 2 step limiter, then launch.
The problem with the typical ignition box limiter is it usually picks the same 2 or 3 cylinders to misfire and those cylinders go cold before launch and have to play catch-up during the run. EFI systems like Bigstuff3 now come with a 2 step that insures even cylinder control to eliminate the problem.

The following run is a 7.03@ 198 mph twin 88 @ 25 lbs of boost, Accel EFI triggering a MSD 7530T. single plane manifold. Yellow line is engine RPM
Note how the cylinder temps are affected during the 2 step rev limit. By the end of the run the grouping is finally coming together
I added the boost curve so you see how nicely it is controlled by simply regulating the wastegate pressure without using the manifold MAP sensor as feedback for the boost controller.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39382077/100_5138.jpg

Here is a 375 hp shot nitrous run ( No turbos) where we used a Mega 450 delay box with the "Starting Line Enhancer".
You come into the staging beam with the gas pedal to the floor with a preset rpm using an air cylinder on the throttle linkage.
Then 1/2 second before launch, the system goes WOT so you are only on the limiter for 1/4 of a second.
Now the cylinder temps stay grouped at launch.
As you can see cylinder #2 was running lean. At the end of the run EGT temps where only 81 degrees apart or 55 degrees apart without #2..

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39382077/100_5139.jpg

[BRUCE ROE]

That is great instrumentation. I don't see how turbochargers could be
used properly before we had the electronics. Bruce Roe

[TheSilverBuick]

Thanks for the post and details! And I agree with Bruce.