Turbo 3.8 in vintage Buick

[RudyE]

Has anyone ever seen a 3.8 liter turbo motor transplanted into a vintage Buick of any sort? I have seen the LC2 in ElCaminos, 280 Z's , Mustangs, but never in a Riv or Wildcat, etc. They would appear to be an easy swap into any of the early chassis styles, as they are still GM motors designed for similar chassis styles as the Nailhead or big block family. No doubt it would help with weight distribution in these larger cars. Power output would certainly be no problem either, as the motors can be tuned from mild to wild with just a little more boost and fuel. Thanks, Rudy E.

[GSXMEN]

I believe I saw a blue '65 Skylark with a cowl induction hood at the GS Nats in '02 that had an LC2 engine in it!:TU:

Always a great drivetrain swap...tough to argue with Power AND Mileage!!:bglasses:

[BuickCityPsycho]

in the flint area late 30's chevy sreet rod running a gn power train

[opeltwinturbo]

There was a 65 Skylark at Las Vegas running a 3.8 motor with turbo. Strong running car. I think he was actually hunting for Doug Hecker !!!:laugh: :laugh:

[Mike Atwood]

How about the one that was at Kearney this year? I didn't get a good look at what kind of turbo he was running, but it was turbo non the less!

[AZ-69 Skylark]

I saw it done in a magazine to a 69-70 Nova.

I was thinking instead of hunting for a Grand National engine and drivetrain, get an 86 or 87 231, upgrade as needed and go to fuel injection with an aftermarket ECU. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) comes to mind. Supposedly you can tune it yourself without a laptop computer. A 200R4 does fit the A-bodies. Or, you could go to a th400 with a lower first gear. If you don't want to mess with a 200R4 or 700 and still want overdrive, then buy a Gear Vendors overdrive unit. In some ways this is cheaper, while in others it's more expensive.

Just dreaming. What do you guys think about a turbo 231 done this way?

[RudyE]

I can tell you that the 231 Turbo motor is nothing exotic, and it could be easily be duplicated with smart use of used GN or aftermarket efi stuff. The difference between the regular 231 and the blown motor in the GN rests in the piston choice and little else. It was long believed that the turbo block was something special, but I can tell you that they share the same 109 casting block and 8445 heads with the na motor. I have two na motors that came out of an 86 GP and an 87 Regal , and even the cranks are the preferred rolled fillet design seen in the GN motor. So, a solid long block is easy to build with all of the aftermarket engine parts out there now. The greatest challenge would be electronics, and that would be the case with any efi swap into an older chassis, even if it retained the original motor. I know of a 65 Chevy II down here that has a stock GN mill linked to a TH350 that is simply using the GN ecm with the unneeded sensors disconnected. The car is nothing fancy, and is a true low buck deal. It runs high elevens to low twelves, and you can barely hear it run. I am personally thinking of a 1st gen Riv with a turbo 231. I can use my GN as a guide. I figure that the Riv would fall under the 4000 lb mark with the little 3.8 under the hood in place of the 401/425. I can easily see this car in the mid 12's with little more than a stock motor with a good set of heads, a little convertor, and about 20 lbs of boost on race gas. I would never gut a primo Riv for such a project, but am on the lookout for a solid body and interior on a rolling chassis that might have and incorrect or missing engine. It never hurts to dream, as all projects have to start in someone's imagination. Thanks, Rudy E.

[Donovan]

I had these pics from a posting a few years back.. Very cool.

[Donovan]

rear view

[Donovan]

Front pass corner

[Donovan]

underside

[Donovan]

Intercooler from under the car

[Donovan]

tranny

[Donovan]

mufflers

[Donovan]

That's a sweet car, I'm tellin' ya! Even if it is still running 4 wheel drum!

:) :bglasses: :grin: :beer :blast: :error: :error: :jd: :shock: :spank: :TU:

[RudyE]

That is one sweet ride! The motor looks like it belongs in there. These kind of cars really make this kind of a creation seem like a very practical choice. I think that I may have seen this car or one similar to it in GM High Tech Performance or something like that last year. I'd bet that the little 231 Turbo would be several hundred pounds lighter than a Nailhead or big block, with the weight reduction being in all the right places from a performance perspective. Power output is no problem, as even a mild motor should produce super et's. Thanks, Rudy E.

[RAMLARK]

i think this is the car that was in car craft
if i remember right, it was all stock gn and
runs high 11's

[dryskip]

Already entered for Las Vegas this year. btw, he is entered in 11.49 and faster:jd:

[MikeM]

Was he there?

[ricknmel67]

Suwheat! The best of all worlds actually....
Clean classic lines, great fuel economy, and 11 second time slips! :TU:

[dryskip]

Yes, he was there. Don't recall how he did. Some of the other modified v6 cars were really fast though.
Talked to his brother today. He ran a couple of high 10.80's and lost in the first round.

[70 Judge]

I found this one earlier today.

http://members.aol.com:/hazel5898/tim.htm

http://members.aol.com:/hazel5898/Picture_0399.jpg

[sean Buick 76]

Interesting info, the 231 buick motor could definitely benefit from the new technology to ofset it's small dispacement. Neat idea.

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

Anyone got pictures of a turbo 6 in a 61-62 Special or Skylark? Heard a rumor of one floating around at one time. That would be a wicked car, 2700lbs with a 400hp motor in it! The scary thing is that the new turbo 6 weights almost 100lbs more that the orginal 215 V8, then again it has anywhere from 16-41 more cid and an iron block. I'm building a 600hp 256cid twin turbo V6, think it would rock in one of those early 60's specials?

[MikeM]

Cooincidentally, I just ran across this ad today for a 63 Convertible. Looks like a great car to do something like that with, it's in nice shape although white may not be the best color. Just what you're talking about.

http://used-cars.autos.yahoo.com/usedcars/detail/index.html?cid=automobiles-1080521599-7433923&dst=1730.80&rsr=dnR5cGU9YXV0b3MmbWFrZT1idWljayZtb2RlbD03NTAwMD A0NTkmY2xfeT0xOTYwJmNoX3k9MTk3MCZjbF9wcmljZT0mY2hf cHJpY2U9JmNsX21pPSZjaF9taT0mY2s9Jmd1cj1hbnkmY3N6PT YwMDY3JmNlX3NsPSZnPSZtaz1CdWljayZtbz0mc3VibWl0PVNl YXJjaA--

1963 Buick Skylark $3250 or best offer Beverly Hills, CA

- THIS CONVERTIBLE WILL BE SOLD FOR THE HIGHEST PRICE I HAVE A 3 MONTH OLD BABY NOW AND I WILL NOT TAKE THE BABY IN THE CONVERTIBLE SOOOOOO ! I WILL MISS THIS CAR ! THE CAR IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION ! I AM THE OWNER OF THE CAR AND I HAVE A CLEAR TITLE READY FOR YOU TO TAKE POSSESION . THERE WERE LESS THAN 8900 OF THESE CARS MADE IN 1963 IT IS TRUELY A RARE CUTE CAR. THE CAR HAS HAD REGULAR MAINTANCE AND IS READY TO DRIVE ! THE CAR HAS LESS THAN 85,500 MILES ON IT . THE CONVERTIBLE HAS ALWAYS BEEN GARAGE KEPT. CONVERTIBLE IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION , ALL DOORS WORK PERFECT ALL WINDOWS ROLL UP WITH NO PROBLEM THE TOP IS IN GREAT SHAPE AND COMES UP WITH THE TURN OF A SWITCH ! CAR STARTS UP EASILLY AND HAS DUAL EXHAUST , V-8 200 H/P PLENTY OF POWER ! 5 NEW RADIAL TIRES .CARS RUNS VERY SMOOTH AND PERS LIKE A KITTEN ! NO RUST BUCKET SEATS IN FRONT ARE NICE , ENGINE IS CLEAN AND CAR HAS BEEN TOTALLY GARAGE KEPT AND IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION . YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING JUST GET IN AND GO ! andrews sara sara_cola2002 yahoo com

[GoldBoattail455]

I just had seen last wed.a Stingray corvette (67?) red with a buick 3.8 turbocharged engine in it.

[70larkownr]

I plan on doin this swap soon! How hard is the wiring? What is the best manual to get to look at the wiring diagrams? What all wiring harnesses would I need? I got a good way to make the fuel system and the only real question left for me is the wiring and how hard it would be to straighten it out. I plan on using the 200 4r with the 3.8 but a manual would be sweet too, maybe a t56 out of a f body!
Heres my plan so far:
Use 350 mounts bolted to block drops right into frame
Drill new holes in frame for the new tranny crossmember position
No driveshaft shortening, same length as th350
get adapters to make tranny lines the metric fitting
make the fuel system
I got all of this just dont know what I need and dont need wiring wise.
Lemme know if you can help!
Mack

[BOOST!]

Hey Mack!

I hear ya. Next week I hope to dump the turbo 6 in the '69!

They say that you want to run an automatic so you can build boost as it multiplies torque.

Besides the 350 motor mounts you will need the stamped 350 frame pads also.

I have an aluminum Griffin radiator, but I think I am going to go with the stock '87 Grand National radiator, for two reasons: It has the needed oil cooler and [B]tranny cooler[B] already built in. I am just going to run the stock lines to the stock radiator. It will certainly look cleaner than having a radiator, intercooler, oil cooler, and tranny cooler, parked in front of the motor.

I have two stock '87 harnesses for sale if you want to take a crack at wiring it in. :rolleyes: I had several Casper's harnesses made. They are pricey, but incredibly well made. All of the wires are labeled. John Spina know his stuff and builds it all for the Buick community.

Caspers! (http://www.casperselectronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=8687GN_Perf)

Another source:

Harness (http://www.fuelinjection.com/)

I do not have experience with them, price is cheaper.:Do No:

My convertible happens to be a no option GS 400. No PS, PB, AC, PW etc. so I do not have those headaches to worry about.

PM me for my phone number if you want to talk swap.

Take Care!:3gears:

[JR Wills]

HELP ON INFORMATION REQUESTED
Mike Atwood has a PIX of a 64-5 Red Skylark @ Kearney in the reponses.
I NEED to find information on THIS car.
From what I can see, it MAY be the 64 Built by my Brother back in 79-80, by seeing the Rollbar & seats, as well as the blacked out side trim.
ANY help on locating the Car & owner would be APPRECIATED GREATLY.
JR Wills
Dickinson TX
jrwills1970@earthlink.net

[Tufbuick]

HERE YA GO........CHECK THIS ONE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pat and Jan Demiures car at Norwalk.

[Tufbuick]

I think this TA all aluminum motor is supposed to go in there!!!!!!

[Roberta]

Turbo Dave Roland wired up a 3.8 Turbo for a local guy in Flint in a '39 Buick. I sent him this link so maybe he will post some pics. Also he got the wiring harness from John at Caspers and was very happy with it! Of course!

[turbodave231]

Check these pictures out:

[turbodave231]

more

[turbodave231]

John Spina and the guys at Caspers build a GREAT harness. I highly recommend using their harness to accomplish this swap. These guys took my order over the phone and the CUSTOM harness came through exactly as I needed it!

[turbodave231]

These pictures don't do the car justice..It is a show winner!!!...and I can't take credit for the whole car. I only did the entire electrical system. The rest of the work was done by others.

I love all cars Buick and Turbo!!!!!

[CTX-SLPR]

Hey Dave,

I'm stuffing the 67 with turbo motor this winter. I have a complete stock system from a 86 GN with a modded computer for the bigger injectors, trans+ for the LS1/6 MAF and spark control and I'll be getting a custom chip once I get the combination finalized. Do you suggest I still go with the casper's harness or use the stock one I have?

Thanks,

[turbodave231]

If you're installing the 86-87 3.8 turbo drivetrain in a 67 Buick, I'd use the stock engine harness if you already have one. For the 39, the stock wire harness wouldn't work because all the wiring had to pass thru on the passenger side of the firewall and it was a tight fit.

In your 67, you ought to have lots of real estate to work with.

Dave

[CTX-SLPR]

Thanks Dave,

I'm not using the 200-4R, I'm going switch pitch 400 but I don't think that will mess up the computer. I looked at the caspers one, if I had the budget for the custom one I would but I unfortunately need that much for the custom pistons... so thanks for the confidence booste on doing the stock harness.

Thanks,

[BOOST!]

Centeral TEXAS Sleeper,

I had planned on putting a TH400 behind the turbo 6 in the GS. I bought my motor out of a '87 GN with the transmission. I posted this idea on the turbo boards and they discouraged running the TH400, unless you are building a dragstrip only car.

For me, it turns out cost and pratically it is better for me to go with the 200-4R.

The deterrants for the TH400 were the cost of the manual valve body and VSS controls you will need, VSS Speedo Signal Kit, and or, VSS VDO Sender Dead End, and or, VSS Convertor, and or, VSS VDO Sender Feed Thru, etc.

I was not too happy about having to use a manual valve body and shift gears with an automatic.:rant:

Also, the old question about the horsepower it takes to turn a 400.

And last but not least, Overdrive. I have 35 miles to work and gas is not getting any cheaper. I have a 12 bolt and 3.55's and I figure cruse with the 400 would be about 3,300 RPM. I don't want the tranny to be a driving consideration.

Hope this helps!

[CTX-SLPR]

Tom,

all good points, however there is also the problem that the 200-4R won't take 500+ hp at the crank without a buttload of money thrown at it. The cheap way around the VSS problem is to use the sender off of a Autometer Electronic Speedo and this also has a cable drive hookup allowing you to still run a cable speedo and or cruise control. The manual valve body is needed because the modulator takes signals from the vacuum to modulate the tranny line pressure, to solve this simply use a mechanical modulator that works like a TV cable on a 200-4R or 700R4. Read this posting if you want to learn more about it http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107416&highlight=400+modulator The switch pitch lets me use a 1200 stall around town and then when someone pisses me off I can flop the converter over to 4500 for launch then after I bang second I can flip it back down to regain efficiency. Since I have the braketry for the cable throttle from the GN I'll just adapt up a Lokar cable to it actuate the modulator. Finally this car is a street car but with 3.07's in the Dana 44 an over drive would probably lug the engine and I can't afford the cryo and billet pieces to make the 200 live. Eventually I will probably go to an overdrive but it might just be a gearvendors unit. I appreciate the sanity check though, good luck with your conversion.

[BOOST!]

Hummm....those are even better points. With the manual modulator you can avoid the manual valve body? I had thought I had my conversion all figured out and now I may have to reconsider....

Thanks for the schooling.

Help me figure out my gas tank now! What do you plan on doing?

[CTX-SLPR]

The mechanical modulator does keep you from running a manual valvebody since is varies the line pressure for you. As for a fuel tank.... It ain't cheap but I'm going to be getting a custom stainless one from Rock Valley Antique Auto. $800 for a full welded stainless stock fitting baffled tank and with a TPI pump though he will upgrade you to a walbro 340 or whatever for price difference between the pumps. Summit sells baffled tanks with built-in sumps for around $350 I think though they are intended for Chevelles. Another idea would be to adapt in a tank out of a later B Body Caprice as they had trunk mounted spares and behind the liscence plate fillers. I've not done any research on that one beyound the fact that they spare and the filler necks are in the same locations, the tank would very likely be the wrong size but you never know. Keep this convo going Tom, 2 minds are better than one to sort out the hangups behind doing this swap!

Thanks,

[turbodave231]

Hey guys,

Why spend big bucks on a special tank? If you have a rust free stocker, use an external pump like an SX or Aeromotive and find a sender that has a vapor canister line to use as a return line.

Save your money and spend it on other upgrades!

Dave

[CTX-SLPR]

Dave,

I've heard bad things about the reliability of the external pumps due to continuous use. Another potential problem is the stock pickup location and lack of baffling. I'd like to take this car though the twisties and we all know how dangerous it is for a turbo car to run lean. I really don't want my pickup to become unsubmerged. I've never thought of that idea before though, its certainly worth considering, if only for a temp measure till I can truely afford the Rock Valley unit.

Thanks,

[BOOST!]

I had run a fast Mustang on the street with a Paxton 1000HP pump, and the constant pump wine sound drove me nuts. It would not be bad if it only came on when needed, but if I can make a single internal pump work I am all for it. When I can hang the wheels purty like Dave! I will have to step up to a big external pump.

Here is my low budget idea. I am trying to think I can fit a '87 Grand National tank into the '69 GS tank area.(?) :puzzled: The height, and front to back are very similar. My GS tank is still in the GS. Here is a comparison of a '72 SS Chevelle (God rest her soul) tank to a '87 Grand National tank.
http://home.comcast.net/~mysonsx3/IM003243.JPG http://home.comcast.net/~mysonsx3/IM003242.JPG
The '87 tank is about 4 inches wide to the left. If I could get 1.5 inches by moving it closer to the framerail, and if I can bend the filler neck 2.5 inches left also, I might just make it. Thought about compressing the ribs at the bottom of the fill neck left, and using one of those small pump-up pipe benders to work the rest of the filler:eek2:

You can see the plastic baffle that keeps the GN pump nice and wet.

If that does not work, I can always strap it to the truck lid like a spoiler.

Ideas?

[CTX-SLPR]

The advantage of running the TR tank would be you can get a setup that uses 2 smaller submerged pumps where the second one only kicks on on demand. The reason why that tank is designed like that is to clear the spare tire mount in the pass side of the trunk. I'm not sure I'm following your idea of bending that filler neck around and still have it work. If you put a kink in the neck you're going to have all sorts of fun trying to fill it up with out the pump shutting off on you.:Dou:
An option I neglected to mention is that Comp Eng sells a kit to sump and then instructions on how to baffle your tank, if you did that you could feed that external pump but it was a good thing I had a nice 2.5" exhauste and spin-techs on my Riv because the whine from my Holley Blue was enough to get on my nerves just starting the car up, I can't imagine what a EFI pump would sound like. I'm still liking the idea of using the B-Body tank if one will fit or going with the rock valley tank.

Thanks,

[missin' 2]

Ive got a turbo 3.8 in a 71 gs body GSX paint job. You can see the pic in the Wet Behind The Ears forum, then go to I Finally got my first buick. its by missin' 2

[CTX-SLPR]

Hey Tom,

Can you check something for me? How much different is the sending unit/pickup assembly off of the GN tank from the one on the chevelle tank? I'm wondering if we would untilize the assembly in our existing tanks (probably with some modification for depth) to allow the use of all the goodies they make for the GN.

Thanks,

[BOOST!]

Ok Sleeper here we go again. You got me thinking!

I went to my favorite free!:beer picking yard and got a tank someone had pulled. They must have took it out for the the pump from an '84 Caddy Sd'V. Size looks right and neck looks quite possible. When I saw it has a plastic fuel sump like the Grand National, I knew I had to give it a try! The Caddy trunk has a nice hump that protrudes up for the hump in the top of the tank.

Next trip I think I will cut out a couple of trunk humps to weld a hump in the trunk of the '69. I might even make it removable to get to the pump easy.

Factory GS/Chevelle pump is about 6" deep
Factory Grand National pump is about 7.5" deep
Factory Caddy pump is about 9" deep

It seems like the Caddy pickup is the way to go. Wiring might need to be changed a little. The metal circle p/u hold downs are from the '70 (little) and the '87/84 (big).
http://home.comcast.net/~mysonsx3/IM004133.JPG http://home.comcast.net/~mysonsx3/IM004130.JPG

[CTX-SLPR]

Not bad Tom,

i'm going to be hitting the junkyard sometime soon to measure up a tank on a Caprice. The problem I can see with your tank is the ablity to get a better than stock pump. One of the reasons I picked the B-body tank is that Racetronix makes upgrade pump assemblies for it. Not sure if you can get a good Walbro pump to fit your tank. Good work though, I'd also check how low that tank will hang and possibly hit your exhauste or something. Just keeping ideas flowing.

Keep in touch,

[BOOST!]

Sorry I do not get here enough :spank:

It cross references to the same tank as a Caprice. Both have the same dimensions 39-3/4 X 26-1/2 X 10 inches. My big fat Walbro fits the Caddy/Caprice hanger. Wiring is a little different, but should be no problem.

Low is not a problem if I create a hump in the trunk, for the hump on the top of the fuel tank. An access hatch to get to the pump? :puzzled:

I will PM you my phone numbers, and you can get ahold of me anytime.

Tom

[70larkownr]

Where could I get one of these 3.8/200 4r's? I looked alot of place but can't run across one. I saw one on ebay but it was half the nation away.
Mack

[CTX-SLPR]

As far as locally to you, no idea, however there is generally all the pieces and sometimes whole drivelines on www.turbobuick.com. That would be my suggestion on where to start. As far as foundation is concerned, if you get a regular NA 3.8 from a rearwheel drive car 86 and on they will have everything the same as a turbo 6 except pistons, crank, and the specialized intake and headers. If you need more help piecing it together I'd be glad to

[missin' 2]

she is finally all done. :bglasses: :laugh:

[BOOST!]

She is beautiful!

[SinistrV6]

Hey guys. I'm a lurker here but thought I'd give you another possible option on the tank. I'm using a Tanks Inc. polyethylene tank in my Turbo Buick powered '36 Chevy. They have a kit that includes a "pan" type setup to keep fuel around the pickup and uses factory pump hangers. Considerably less money also. I've got about $400 in it (minus the pump). They will supply a Walbro 340 if you request it.

HTH,
Richard Gautier
SinistrV6 on all the boards