Nailhead with multiport FI

[doc]

This should get something started. Has any one taken a nailhead and converted it to multi port FI ? howmuch horsepower? which wiring harness? Which brainbox? what was the end RESULT?????:Brow: Doc :laugh:

[nailed]

Looks like someones going to give it a shot
http://www.ridetech.com/companyprojects/airwagon.asp

[btc]

Actually it says they'll be using TBI, not multi-port. It does look pretty damn cool in any case.

Do a search. There was a thread a little while abck discussing EFI on Nailheads.

[wkillgs]

There's a hot rodder in my area who built a VERY nice setup for the 425 Nailhead in his '37 Pontiac.
Edelbrock B262 intake with welded on bungs for the injectors....
Control system is by Accell. It's been on there for at least 7 years. It runs as good as it looks!:TU:

[doc]

Thanks Walt, I would like to get some pics from some where .I read about an article that was supposed to come out in some mag. but I managed to miss it . I converted an old jeep once. It ran pretty good. in fact I am still driving it. the idea of a fi nail head has always had an appeal to me. Doc

[Geeto 67]

Hey

Has anybody seen those new efi strombergs that mooneyes is selling. The guy that devloped them lives on long Island and also sells complete FI kits. It seems to me I remember seeing a few old stromberg manifolds for nailhead buicks on ebay pop up from time to time. Figure you get his kit but use your own nailhead stromberg manifold and your set. By the way the manifold needs zero modifications, the injectors are inside the carb bodies and they are a direct bolt on to any manifold that has a stromberg 97 or holley 94 flange. Anyway, here is a couple of links:

Mooneyes:
http://www.mooneyes.com/MISC/drive.html

The Guy making the units:
Info@classicgass.com

Anyway, hope this helps the efi nail head guys...now if i could only find a 6 carb stromberg ram log manifold for the later 455's....

[1adam12]

Hey guys check out the latest car craft the have a system called the megasquirt system. its do it yourself computer system. You gey a circut board and all the nessary electronic part and you soilder it together. It can control any engine from singal cylinder stuff to a V-12 if you wanted. It dosn't control ignition so you can use your stock setup or step up to an MSD or something. So all that would be left was to fad up an intake. Oh and it uses all Gm sensors. The kit sells for $225 dollars.

thanks Adam

[Geeto 67]

Hey

Read about that system and the idea seems sketchy to me. The point of fuel injection is precise metering of fuel based on the engine's necessity which would require control of the ignition timing. If anything at least a signal from the timing would seem mandatory so as to keep the computer from guessing where your timing is set. I am not familar with the performance of the product but this is one of those times when cheaper does not seem to be the better alternative. Plust the kit is actualy cheaper when you figure in the eight hours assembly time for just the computer (according to the article) pluse the fact that the kit is only the control module and you would have to purchase all the sensors seperatly (which is also the impression i got from the article). For an older engine such as a nailhead there are other viable options if one is willing to make smarter decision with their budget and spend in the right places as well as invest the eight hours in actual tuning rather than assembly of a complex circuit board. anyway that is just my .02 cents.

[Geeto 67]

sorry i meant to say: "...isn't actually cheaper....". It's late and I have sausage fingers.

[bobc455]

The Megasquirt is completely workable.

But I recommend that you really know your stuff before trying it. Someone who is experienced with FI could make that system work fine, but it's not for the faint of heart in my opinion.

-Bob Cunningham

[Geeto 67]

I understand the megasquirt is completely workable, but without the ignition controls why would you want fuel injection. Carbs can make more horsepower than FI and they are cheaper to own. The reason people go to fuel injection is that it is a more reliable system that performs more consistently than a carb. The reason FI is more consistent and precise is that it brings all the variable elements into one system instead of having them act independent or each other. I don't mean to be so down on this product but it reminds me of a lot of other products that are sold as low budget versions of high buck speed equipment. The best example i can think of are those electric superchargers, where the thing can at most create 2 psi of boost but it sure a lot cheaper than a real supercharger. To me this doesn;t make sense...if you are serious about your car and geting a supercharger spend the money and buy the real deal, don't be shammed by cheap alternatives. I feel the same way about FI...If you feel you need it then spend the money, get a system that works and has a marked difference over the alternative. To me the megasquirt does not seem all that cheap when you have to supply all the other hardware to get it to work (manifold, sensors, etc) and really has very fewer options than what else is available. Compared to a carb the system is not cheap and doesn't seem like it would have a noticeable effect on the performance of your car. This might be a great system for people who have a need for it (i could see racers using this becasue their cars are purpose built machines and operate within a narrow rpm range) but since i have not seen the product in action i will leave it as not something i would not recommend

Just out of curosity, bobc455, i noticed your sig states that you have a 455 with efi. What kind of efi are you using? how did you get it to work?

[Freedster]

Not necessarily. My S-10 is EFI and it has a plain old distributor. No fancy spark control at all, and it gets good mileage, makes OK power, and cold starts like a champ.

- Freed

[Geeto 67]

What motor are you running in the s10. I bet even if the efi doesn't make alterations to your ignition it still takes a signal from it making it a constant in the system and adjusting the fuel curves around any varances in ignition. That is how i have seen most stock systems do it....I have been hanging around too much late model iron. There are some efi systems out there that don't control ignition at all but they are usually on older stock efi vehicles, and there is a reason those systems progressed into ones that do have ignition controls. Also an efi system can have a regular old distributor (not individual coil packs) and still have ignition control, usually in the form of an electronic advance on the distributor. Even some of those computer controlled carbs had "ignition control" by being able to advance or retard the distributor.

[Freedster]

It's a 91 with the stock 4.3L.

- Freed

[bobc455]

Geeto,

The EFI does not need to control ignition to work well.

I ran EFI from 1993 to 2001 without ignition control, no problems. Very reliable and efficient.

The biggest benefit to having the ECM control ignition is cost savings for the manufacturers. They can build an ignition system with no moving parts, which also saves on warranty costs and makes diagnosis easier. There are some benefits to ignition control, but it will cost you a lot more than Megasquirt (or other non-ignition systems). You can do things like add knock sensors, etc., but in reality my timing table looks amazingly similar to a distributor curve (vacuum advance plus mechanical advance plus initial advance).

-Bob Cunningham

[Jeff Agosti]

On the subject of putting EFI on a nailhead. I own a 63 Wildcat and thought of converting to EFI using the same system that I used on my streetrod project. I used a Ford 5.0 mustang computer and harness on my Blown 331 c.i Chrysler Hemi. The system uses mass air flow to measure incoming air and the computer mapping adjusts timing and fuel curves. I used bigger injector sizes for more cubes and the blower as well as a MAF meter that is easily matched to the injector size. I also made an adapter to adapt the Ford distributer to the Hemi block. The Ford MAF style of injection is seqential, so all I had to do was change the injector firing order to match that of the chrysler. Basically switched the injector harness around. The computer does'nt know what V8 it's on. All the computer does is fire injectors in a sequence 1 through 8 based on what it reads from all engine sensors. The other thing interesting about sequential EFI is that you can use the dual plane intake manifold-stock on the nailhead. Other EFI's use batch fire or bank fire injectors which favors single plane manifolds. I'm thinking of boring and tapping holes for threaded steel injector bungs in my nailhead manifold and using the Ford 5.0 system on it since it worked so well for my blown Hemi. Just a thought.

[doc]

Jeff, sooner or later some one is going to do this. I would be intrested to see just how much hp a set up like this would put out. I suspect that it would be a bear. I converted a 258 jeep once and it was a much improved eng in the power dept, but all I used was a stock FI from a jeep in a wrecking yd. from the way You write I see that You were more knowledgeable about FI than I was when I did mine. I kind of did a monkey see monkey do conversion. Doc

[Geeto 67]

Jeff

Using the ford 5.0 Mass Air system seems to be popular for you chrysler guys. I have been working one making one for my 455 but my biggest stumbling block right now is how to fit the ford distributor in the 455. I am curious as to what kind of adapter you made, and if you could get pictures of it. Once i get the dristibutor issue figured out everything else is a tuning issue from there on out. Please enlighten me.

As far as the nailhead FI is concerned, Sure it is pricey but if you are running a nailhead in your car why wouldn't you want the look of six strombergs completely hiding modern FI like the mooneyes setup. Sure it may not measure up to direct injection performance wise but is sure beats six real strombergs (or holley 94s) and has way cool visual impact. Stromberg manifolds for the nailhead are out there, I have seen them.

[doc]

Jeff, Have You ever tried to tune 6 two bbls? I remember them from the old days and they were a nightmare. I think I will build a supercat on my 65 lark GS. However a multiport FI would be VELLY INTELESTING. dOC

[Jeff Agosti]

Hey guy's, thanks for the reply. Six strombergs looks killer on a nailhead, however, the cost of the mooneyes setup is extremely expensive. What I did on the blown Hemi was to put two 5.0L mustang throttle bodies on top of the blower and made custom plumbing attaching the mass air flow meter to the throttle bodies then hidding the MAF sensor and plumbing under a hilborn style injector scoop- the ones with an oval opening that normally sat on two four barrels. I also made an custom air filter that sits inside of the oval opening. I guess what I'm getting at is there is a tremendous amount of fabrication involved, but the cost of the trottle bodies and the rest of the Ford EFI was really cheap and available everywhere. By the way the throttle bodies are set up with progressive linkage and viewing them from the side fools alot of people into thinking they are carbs. I was thinking of using a similar setup on my nailhead only using the a gutted holly carb or carbs as throttle bodies. One problem with carbs is finding a way to attach a TPS or throttle position sensor to the throttle shaft. As for the distributer, I dont have any pictures to show,but basically I made an alluminum collar on my metal lathe that adapts the ford diameter distributer to a larger diameter chrysler hole in the block and machined the shaft to a sort of straight blade screwdriver end to fit into a slot on the oil pump shaft. For the 455, I'm not sure without looking, what could be done, but I'll bet the fella who calls himself ignition man might be able to help. By the way it makes no difference which way the distributer turns- the ford works in either direction.

[Freedster]

One other thing to add-

From what I've been reading it seems that you can just bolt up the parts from one engine to another, upgrading injectors as necessary to handle the size of the motor, and it will run. The only problem is that your system won't run quite as well as one that was custom-tuned for your engine. Differences in volumetric efficiency, plenum volume in relation to displacement, cam profile, gas velocities, etc. will all make it so your car won't run quite as well as it would with a custom system.

On the other hand, if you can live with a little less power and economy and would rather save the money, you can still have most of the advantages of EFI without doing much to the computer side of things. Think of it as the difference between a custom-tuned carb and one off the shelf. Just some food for thought.

- Freed

[Jeff Agosti]

Freedster, point taken, however the Ford computer can be tapped into for changes to all of the perameters you spoke of. I was into Fords a while ago, and many companies offer ways to tweak on the Ford computer. Ford Motorsports for instance, has a couple ways to do this. Another way to look at is that although the nailhead and 455 BBB as well as other engines have more cubes and numerous differences, the Ford aftermarket has been tweaking on the volumetric efficiency and plenum volumes using a variety of heads, cams, intakes, blower, turbos, nitrus, headers and stroker kits; all while using the stock computer with little or no mods to the computer. The MAF system reads the mass of air entering the engine whether there is bad or good v.e. Differing cams, heads, displacement, mainfold vacum positive or negative makes neglegable difference on a street/strip driven engine as long as the the MAF meter is large enough (c.f.m) and is properly calibrated to injector size for a given c.i. displacement and horsepower output. Finally, the price of EFI is coming down with companies such as Megasquirt that have affordable EFI. I did the conversion on may Hemi a couple of years ago when the Ford system was in many ways was the cheapest and adaptable.
Also, for those of you who think I'm a "Ford" or "Mopar" guy, I'm not. I simply love all V8's except the small block chevy- I'm soooo sick of those sbc's, it makes me want to puke every time I see one.

Can I get a Hoo Rah!?

[doc]

Yeah, hoo rah on puking when i see a s/b chev. I think a nailhead with a properly set up FI would be super strong in performance and durability. Put a large throttle plate on it &match all the other components to each other and I think it would embarass a lot of chevy ,ford and mopar fans. Shine a light i hear a snake a walkin. Doc

[1adam12]

Ok i will admit that i don't really know much about fuel injection but i know that i would like to get a setup for my 300 project that i will be going together in the next couple of years. Since i am a colledge student money is kinda cramped so usually if i want something cool that i don't have the money for i have to make it myself. So i need some info on this ford fuel injection set up. My first question is why do we need to use the ford distributer in the first place why wouldn't any hei set up work or possibly something like and MSD crank trigger. a lot of my friends are into the 5 liter mustangs and have upgraded a lot of the parts i need so i probaly could get the stock stuff that i need real cheap. I have a question since i am new to this and have questions is there a good book out there that i can get to get more info on this. Also i want to say thanks for you guys taking the time to explain this to me and other things in the past. I think that people don't say that enough.

thanks Adam

[doc]

Adam, Let me talk to You out of my heart........ I had a 64 lark that I built to the optional spec. 4bbl,dual exaust, 11;1 comp. 300 in. eng. I had NO real gear in the diff, NO posi. I did have air bags in the rear springs, and bigger tires. I did go in and take all the sound deadner out of the floor boards and trunk. this lightened the car 100 lb. Buick only claimed 250 hp for this setup. It was a G stock Automatic car at the drag strip. It was a class winner . I won more,never broke,and had less expense,and more fun than I ever did, dragracing. If i had put a low gear and posi. the car would really have come on strong. think about it young man it is worth considering. Your friend, Doc

[Geeto 67]

Adam

You would need the ford distributor becasue the computer also has ignition controls and is an intergral part of the system. There are books written about the ford hall effects distributor. I am only two chapters into "Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control: 1988-1993", so i am not really sure of all the jobs it does in the system but it is obviously a key member, so suffice to say that if you want to run the ford system you need the distributor. The advantage to the ford system is that it is a mass air system, meaning that a sensor takes a measurement of incoming air into the engine (usually through temprature variances) and adjusts the fuel and timing accordingly. This is preferable to a throttle position system which uses a preset formula and a predetermined orifice size to guess at the amount of air flowing into the engine based on the position the throttle blades are open.

Sadly for a custom application all that you will end up using of the stock components are the distributor, wiring harness, and a few sensors. The fuel rail, upper and lower plenum, and throttle body will all need to match your engines needs. fortunately you engine, 300 ci, is close to the stock size of a ford 302 stock fuel system components may work. All your fuel components must be bought as a matched set.

AS far as fabrication goes here is basically what you will need to fab: a way of mounting the ford distributor in the engine (a machine shop may be able to do this for you), a lower plenum, and an upper plenum with a throttle body mount.

For the lower plenum you would want to start with a manifold to fit the engine you are using, preferably aluminum and aftermarket but you could use a stock 4 barrel manifold. the advantage for aftermarket is that you need to know the flow rate of the manifold. You will need to add fuel injection bungs to the rails of the intake so as to accommodate the ford injectors.

For the upper plenum you will need to fashion a box based on the need of the engine. there is a formula for this based upon engine size and manifold flow rate, i have it in my notes and if you are serious about this pm me and i'll find it for you. Literally this plenum will be a box that at the bottom has a flange for your intake manifold and at the side has a flange for the ford throttle body. The box must be air tight (welded, at all sides) except where the tb mounts and where it mounts to the intake.

After you get all this built and installed in the engine you will need to calibrate the ford computer for the injectors you are using, as well as fine tune the computer for the system. A recommended tool is called the TwEECer which is a program that allows you to custom tune the ford computer.

As you can see the system will not be cheap nor easy for someone with a limited budgets and limited skills. If seems like a daunting task but it is not impossible as there are many who use this system on a variety of engines. Make sure your needs dictate this kind of setup, if they don't you may want to investigate other options. If you are on a budget, i would suggest sticking to a carb, preferably a quadrajet or a holley, as parts are readily available and the potential for speed is there.

Personally i am planning on using this system on a 455 i have. I want fuel injection and mass air systems tend to work better with the rather large cam i plan on using. The car will be a street strip car with an emphasis on reliability and consistency. I plan to roadrace the car as well as drag race and FI is more ideal because it is a pressurized system and i won't have to worry as much about fuel starvation under hard cornering, acceleration, and braking. Also i plan on getting around 150K miles out of the bottom end without a rebuild on an engine making in the 400 hp range. These goals would have been pretty lofty before fuel injection but are possible (though still difficult) with modern FI systems.

[1adam12]

Well first Doc thanks for the info you setup sounds like what i am going to build what did you do exactly was it simply a 4 barrel aluminum headed 300. Did you put an after market cam in it or not. Like i said i am in car so this csr will really on severe duty driving me back an forth to school in the summer, cruising around with buddies and the accasional trip to the local drag strip. So I pan on building a setup like GNRlark on this board. Right now i have the poston headers and an aluminum intake.
What did you car run Doc. I not really into going to the drag strip every week end maybe 3 or 4 times a summer. So my goal is to build something that sounds good and is fun to drive. Let me know about your engine thanks again Doc.
And to Geeto 67 thanks for the info that does sound a little to complicated for me right now My dad helps but he is a carb man so were are knew to this. It sounds like i will stick to the holley i have know good luck with your project and thanks again. I will post some pictures when mine is back on the rode again hopefully this may

thanks Adam

[Geeto 67]

Hey Adam

If you are really into fuel injection you could look at holley's projection. It is basically a throttle body carb (like most gm trucks and cars had from the mid 80's through the mid 90's), which means that the injectors are mounted in inside the throttle body. It takes a regular air cleaner and will look like a carb with the air cleaner on. they usually fit a holley flange, but you will have to look at the kit to adapt it to your manifold. Because the fuel flows like a carb it has only a marginal advantage over a carb in that you will have a better idle quality, a slight increase in mileage, and better cold starts. These sound like things you want on your car as you will be using it for everyday use. The carb has the potential to make more power at wide open throttle, but only there and the idle and drivability may suffer as a result. It is a lot cheaper than most other fuel injections, i have seen projection kits going on ebay for as little as $600 (used) and $800 (new). Theoretically you could just scavange an old throttle body off a gm pickup and just use their computer but i don't know if there are compatibility uses, you would have to research it more. You will probably have to put in a return line for the fuel and modify the tank for it (i am not sure as i am not totally familar with this system, but that is what you have to do with most FI systems). In the end, figure that if you are bargain savy you may be able to get away with a fuel injection system that is simple, does what you need, and cost you around $900 to $1000 total. This si about as cheap as i can see fuel injection getting for a buick. In the end the carb will still be cheaper. Anyway if you really want FI, investigate your options and research, they may be cheaper ways out there (like pirating a tb system off an old gm truck and using an aftermarket computer) but you have to look around, talk to people, go to shows, and put in the effort. Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy. Here is the link to fuel injection on holley's site:

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSFI/FMSFI.html

good luck.

[Jeff Agosti]

Geeto67, how's your prodject comming? Did you find a machine shop that will help you adapt the Ford distributer to the 455? You spoke of plenum's with differing sizes. The reason Ford went with long runners and a box style upper manifold was to promote good low end torque for the small cubes of the 5.0 . Alot of guys with big block ford (460c.i)converted there engines using the 5.0 system with a single plane aftermarket manifold and a ninety degree elbow with a flange that on one end matched the carb flange on the manifold and the other matching the throttle body usuallly about 80mm or better. I believe they used a piece of mandrel bent 3 inch exhaust tubing. This will give a rather short intake runner but that's what the big block needs. It does'nt need the long runners to promote low end torque. A good example of long versus short intake runners is the Ford taurus SHO. It had both. The computer would use long runners for low end torque then switch to short runners as the engine reved through about 3500 rpm. Just a thought.

[Geeto 67]

Hey Jeff


Yeah I have ben considering the elbow flange as means of attaching the throttle body. I have been in touch with the guy who put that system on a 69 charger and he told me based on his trial and error that the difference between the elbow and the plenum was like night and day. They sell elbows now that will bolt to a holley carb flange, so i don't have to fab one at all. But since between two friends I have access to a tig welder, a bridgeport, and scrap aluminum i would like to have something that has some show quality to it. As for the distributor part I am without machine shop, but then again i haven't been looking too hard. Job troubles, a basement flood, the bodywork on my GTO, and other maladays of life have kept me from putting in some serious wrench time on the car. I'm confident that once i get to ripping into both distributors and have the block readily available to test fit on, the answer will come. As for other progress, I'm figuring out on paper how I should do the engine rebuild. Since I am considering this fuel injection system the possibility of supercharging or turbocharging has begun to rear it head. I have always wanted a supercharged car, but there is the added expense to what is already turning into a costly project. I think what i am going to do is keep the compression at around 9:1. That way if I wanted to supercharge I could add about 6 to 8 psi of boost later on without having to change pistons. For the naturally aspirated 455 i had been planing on a 10:1 compression ratio. I figure that if i can get the engine all sorted out on paper and the FI mocked up before a i tear the 455 down then once it is time for the rebuild it will be more straight foward ( i.e. i order the parts, i install the parts without changing my mind), and the biggest obstical will be tuning. I appreciate you interest jeff and I will keep everybody posted when work actually begins, and now that i have the digi cam working (it was busted for a while) I'll be sure to take lots of pics.

[Jeff Agosti]

Geeto67, it sounds as though you have really thought this build up through. I was thinking of something simillar for my nailhead, maybe a turbo or two with the Ford EFI. You mentioned the fella with the 69 Charger. Did he swap the plenum box in place of the 90 degree elbow? I'm assuming that this is the difference between night and day. Also, did'nt I see this 69 Charger in one of the car magazines? I subscribe to so many, I can't remember where but I did see one somewhere in the neighborhood of 496 c.i.

[Rivman73]

I am using a GM syclone/typhoon computer, homade harness, and modified a computer controlled 3.8 HEI to V8. You need a chip programer, a chip out of a 90-92 TPI 350, and you can modify a 90-92 TPI harness to work. And I got the knock sensor out of a early 90's ss 454 truck(they only have to be simular in displacment). I can give some more help if any one wants to go this route.