1971 W30 guru

[Dave H]

There is someone in Canada who started a 1971 W30 registry and I believe is restoring one right now. I was contacted by another person on this board on the authenticity of a car his friend has and basically told him everything I know on them and suggested he try to get in touch with a real expert on this VERY rare model. The car is a 4 speed convertible and there were only 32 of them made of a total of 110 convertibles and 920 total including hardtops. Probably more of them out there now, but stranger things have happened.

If you know who that is, please post here and hook up with him.

Thanks,

[flynbuick]

Cannuck (Paul M.)

[Dave H]

Thanks, Jim.

There you go, stage one.

[Canuck]

You found me. I dont consider my self a "Guru", just knowledgable. I just wrote an article for JWO, the OCA newsletter about these cars. Looking to gather more info for a database I have been building for 15 years. I share the info with current owners of these cars but have not published a registry for general consumption as these cars are too easy to "clone".
Happy to hear from anyone who currenty owns a 1971 442 Convert with W-30 option. Also would like to hear from past and original owners.

[Canuck]

Stageone, sent you a PM.

Whistler has about 250CM.

[buicklawyer]

Tell your friend to call me before he sells to Volo Pleasssssee John

[Canuck]

Stageone
Nice documents, have only seen one other "#2" sheet.
That car was built 2 days after my Green Ragtop, give me the serial number and make sure the body number matches the data plate tag.

Send me a PM with the owners name so I can add to the files.

Paul

[Dave H]

That looks like a pretty big $$$ car! Both build sheets? Wow. That one would be worth tracing back to original owner and get any info you can. Have someone run the VIN through the police system on the Q.T. first just to be sure.

Does it still have the H heads? May know where there is a set for the right car. Otherwise not for sale, I think.

[SmallHurst]

Selective sales by Dave H.:

If we like you, we have it! If we think you scum, get bent!:moonu:

[Dave H]

No, not selective sales, they're not mine. But the person that has them isn't about to sell them to a parts shark that will sell them to an unscrupulous (what a neat word) cloner that will turn a $15k car into a $40k car to an unsuspecting buyer. Enough of that crap around.

But if someone has a car like this, and it does sound genuine, that's where they should end up. On the right car, that's not trying to flip it to make a quick buck.

The 72 W30 came with GA heads. Unfortunately so did all 1972 455's (including 88's, 98's, etc.) so not hard to find. In 1971, H heads were not used on W30's (standard 442's used G heads (same as GA) except didn't have hardened valve seats. Not all G or GA heads had the big valves.

1971 W30's are in a world of their own much like the 66 W30's are in theirs. If you have one, it isn't for sale. If you find one for sale, have someone really good check it out (as Cannuck says, easy to clone), and if you don't have one and love Oldsmobiles, it doesn't get any better. I personally like them more than most Hursts (except 68's)

Speaking of 68 Hursts, my friend, Tom Drew, just sold his mint, post 68 on ebay for 32k. That's about the mileage on it also. Somebody sure got a beautiful car (that really runs along with all the right stuff to convert it back to stock. They don't come any better.

Check it out at www.streetrockets.com.

[SmallHurst]

I was just joshing you Dave! I agree, the making a "common" vehicle into a "severe collector piece" has gone on in this hobby and it makes me sick.

I saw the '68 for sale on e-bay. That definately was a sweet ride. What is shocking to me is the fact it brought $32K!:eek2: In 1999, I know of 2 '69 cars that were Senior division winners that were selling less money. I guess that the '68 is finally getting some respect in the collector realm.

[Dave H]

The 69's always brought more money than the 68's. Probably because they were a little more off the wall than the subtle touches of the 68's. He had an offer for it of that amount 6 months ago on a private sale, but the guy was a deadbeat. You can't believe how nice it is.

Tom did well with that car. He paid big buicks (at the time) for it back in 1997 or so (around $13k). It was a very nice, low mileage car that had just been through a frame off and was correct in every way, but the engine, while being numbers match, wasn't the original VIN match. He built a wicked 455 to the same specs as Rob Thomas' 69, put in the big gear, convertor, headers, 3 inch stainless, wheels, tires, etc. like the other Streetrockets cars. I know he's driven it on the street quite often.

He's basically a Chevy man , so probably has something already up his sleeve. He called my friend that painted my red car yesterday while I was there looking over my green 66, but not sure what it was about.

:Dou:

[Brian Stefina]

Dave H said:No, not selective sales, they're not mine. But the person that has them isn't about to sell them to a parts shark that will sell them to an unscrupulous (what a neat word) cloner

Will he sell them to a scrupulous cloner?

I was going to thank the build sheet poster for giving me the recipe for my next clone.....in jest.

I was afraid though that would send "some" people into a tailspin, cause coronaries and delusions of the "black helicopters" coming to steal the precious information.

I think the heads should set on the shelf until sometime in the hopfully far future the current owners estate executor throws them in the hopper.

God forbid they go on a car without a pedigree.

:laugh: :laugh:

[buicklawyer]

All of my current cars are correct and documented. But when it comes to a driver , I love W-30 clones. You can usually tell and they are reasonalby priced so you can enjoy them. Am trying right now to buy one off 442.com/ A member of this Board is looking at the car for me soon. Just my opinion and we all know what that's like. John

[BUICK528]

If I could just get my buddy to paint my 28,000 mile '71 W30, I'd be a LOT happier about life....been waiting 4 years for him now to get started, everything is done but the paint, i'm ready to sell it as-is, out of patience...

... manana.....manana.......manana :ball: :ball: :ball:

J :Dou:

[Canuck]

In 1971 I put SS emblems on my 68 Camaro, in essence cloning it, It was my everyday car. In 1973 I took off the Stripes and graphics and the factory tail pipe extentions off my Duster 340 because the Insurance company were giving me grief. I cloned a 318 Duster.

I am a purist when it comes to rare iron and dont like to see clones passed off as the real thing. I am in favor of "do what you want to a driver" I have enough parts here to do a nice 1970 W-30 clone or a 71 or 72. This is the kind of car I would do for one of my kids. I agree with John on the Daily driver issue, but would likely not use rare parts just to clone a car. Built a nice clone, but use Mondello heads, a modern carb, decent exhaust, electronoc ignition, modern rubber and have something that is dependable all day long.

I have had several people submit info on 1971 W-30 converts trying to convince me they are real so they can say they are on the "registry"

[Brian Stefina]

Now to me unless you pony up for the rare parts a car is not a

clone.......rather a Cutlass with W30 stripes.

I know cars passed off as "real" are bad and don't agree with it.

But my Mercury is not a daily driver or kids car, thank you.

I get tired of hearing the holier than thou BS that a set of
heads or intake should not be installed on anything but a car
with a VIN.

In most all cases there are more parts left than the cars they came off of. The carcasses are long gone

So should these saved items be destroyed to ensure they can never be used?

Better yet....lets stop all forms of P/S racing because precious

casting could be harmed...leading to rampant cloning....

Once a car is injured it's not original and should be crushed to save the rest of the herd.

Throttle stops and lexan display cubes for everyone.



:rolleyes: :laugh:

[buicklawyer]

The Parts Place Inc is building reproduction parts for Oldsmobiles. The alum intake manifolds are 1/2 the price of original and look great. The Thornton hoods are better than original and cost much less. What I am saying is that you can take a 442 , clone a correct looking W-30 conv for 26,000 instead of drivng around in a 50 k car. Paul is right. The car I am looking at is 40 over with forged pistons and solid Modello internals. Correct F heads and stock replacement manifolds from Parts Place. Polygraphite busings in front end and shift kit in the 400 tranny. What more could you want ? Perfect car to drive-- only one drawback NO AIR !

[cjp69]

John,

I thought you just bought a 72 "driver" convertible in October? Don't tell me you are tired of it already!

[flynbuick]

Been gone but he did pretty good for him about 3 months.

[BlackGold]

As good as the reproduction Olds W-30 parts are, they do differ from the originals. A trained eye can tell.

What's with all you guys wanting a "W-30" as a daily driver? I find it a little bit insulting (then again, I'm easily insulted). I guess I never thought of Oldsmobile as the red-headed step-child of the muscle car world. :confused:

[cjp69]

flynbuick said:Been gone but he did pretty good for him about 3 months.

LOL, A whole 3 months!

I guess that is a lot better than the 68 GS 400 ChinaMike bought from him, I don't think he ever even got that one!

[flynbuick]

BlackGold said:As good as the reproduction Olds W-30 parts are, they do differ from the originals. A trained eye can tell.

What's with all you guys wanting a "W-30" as a daily driver? I find it a little bit insulting (then again, I'm easily insulted). I guess I never thought of Oldsmobile as the red-headed step-child of the muscle car world. :confused:


There are more switch hitters around here than you think.

[Dave H]

Brian:

Think I need to pick up a case or two of "I can taste my beer!" and we should get down and I'll tell you the facts of life as I see it regarding cloning Mercury's. Really now, has anyone else ever tried to clone a Mercury? Once again............you're one of a kind! :TU:

Jim:

Boy does that look familiar! Never looked that good, though! How's it running? Does it still have the "Heads by Brady" emblems on the valve covers?

[Brian Stefina]

Dave H said:Brian:

Think I need to pick up a case or two of "I can taste my beer!" and we should get down and I'll tell you the facts of life as I see it regarding cloning Mercury's. Really now, has anyone else ever tried to clone a Mercury? Once again............you're one of a kind! :TU:

:laugh:
There are other cars beside Oldsmobile Dave.......

I'll take out the 427 driveline in case someone with a '64 R code body needs it........Seeing as they made 43 I'm sure there are bodies in need just lined up and my castings are the last in existance.

Now that I know the car is only good for kids or a winter beater I just can't stand to see those expensive castings wasting away in the car now :ball:

Considering the durability testing and analysis that the OEM's do......since when do aftermarket parts make a car more dependable......Mondello heads? Oh yea she's a daily driver now. :laugh:


* Not aimed at the general Olds owner.....just the pompus ones.

[Dave H]

Brian Stefina said::laugh:


Considering the durability testing and analysis that the OEM's do......since when do aftermarket parts make a car more dependable......Mondello heads? Oh yea she's a daily driver now. :laugh:


* Not aimed at the general Olds owner.....just the pompus ones.




:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Can only speak for F*rd in modern times, but most of the durability testing and analysis done is wasted since they cost reduce the designs before they're tooled for production and launch it untested to meet the timing charts. You can always outsource, fire, or retire someone later if it doesn't turn out OK.

Just read in Wards that Ford has discovered a new product development breakthrough: Launch it as designed and tested, and cost reduce it later. Wow, is that innovative or what?


What are Mondello heads?



"Aimed at the general Mercury owner.....not just the pompous one." ...........but I repeat myself........

:grin:

[Brian Stefina]

Dave H said::



"Aimed at the general Mercury owner.....not just the pompous one."

:grin:

:laugh: :laugh:

What is a "general Mercury owner" ?

[buicklawyer]

Come on guys We are all prejudiced about our cars or we wouldn't own them. I have owned many kinds but my father was an Olds service tech for 45 years so it is all I know. Maybe I should post my first baby picture-- buck naked at 6 weeks on the front fender of a 1941 Blue 76 Olds sedan.

[Brian Stefina]

buicklawyer said:Come on guys We are all prejudiced about our cars or we wouldn't own them. I have owned many kinds but my father was an Olds service tech for 45 years so it is all I know. Maybe I should post my first baby picture-- buck naked at 6 weeks on the front fender of a 1941 Blue 76 Olds sedan.

You are right.

I'm poking back at being lumped into the leper colony because my car doesnt have a pedigree.

First engine owned: 455 Olds
Second car owned: 1968 Olds Toronado
Also 1969 Olds 98 Convert.
1972 Olds Vista Cruiser
1978 Olds Wagon
1956 324 engine with dual quads (for my Willy's didn't use)
1957 371 engine supercharged (same as above)
:TU:

[pglade]

buicklawyer said: Maybe I should post my first baby picture-- buck naked at 6 weeks on the front fender of a 1941 Blue 76 Olds sedan.


:eek2:

If we have a choice then ok, the baby pic is fine---just don't post a pic of you buck naked yesterday sitting on the front fender of the white F85 W31!:grin:

BTW guys--it is 70 degrees and sunny here today--most of the week has been like that...just trying to get everyone to move down here so all the Pure Stock action will be closer!

I need to call my buddy with the 71 convert W30 here---his Dad bought it new---and it now sits awaiting restoration.

Patton

[flynbuick]

buicklawyer said: Maybe I should post my first baby picture-- buck naked at 6 weeks on the front fender of a 1941 Blue 76 Olds sedan.


When you were 6 weeks old Ransom had not yet invented the Oldsmobile.

[Dave H]

Brian Stefina said:You are right.

I'm poking back at being lumped into the leper colony because my car doesnt have a pedigree.

First engine owned: 455 Olds
Second car owned: 1968 Olds Toronado
Also 1969 Olds 98 Convert.
1972 Olds Vista Cruiser
1978 Olds Wagon
1956 324 engine with dual quads (for my Willy's didn't use)
1957 371 engine supercharged (same as above)
:TU:

Once a leper, always a leper.


YUK! Get away from me, you unclean person! (Thanks for the words, Diego):laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :moonu: :moonu: :moonu:

[Brian Stefina]

Dave is just hateful of clones since a guy at an Olds show said his Ram Rod was a clone.

I suppose I should be sensitive to the life altering trauma that must have caused. :ball:


:laugh:

[Dave H]

One time?

It happens every time that car goes to an Olds show. That's whay it's so much more fun to race it.

You learn to get thick skin on that stuff.

Can't wait to take the 68 W30 to an Olds meet and let them figure out whether it's a reddish Hurst, or a Hursty W30...............

Maybe put different emblems on each side of the car to confuse them more. :laugh:

[Brian Stefina]

Every time...........That's weird.

What in particular do these wanna be Olds intellectuals think is clonish?

[Casey Marks]

If Dave "cloned" his keys, he could race at more events ........ :laugh:

[Dave H]

Casey Marks said:If Dave "cloned" his keys, he could race at more events ........ :laugh:

Good point. :laugh:

[MikeM]

John probably had more time to drive the Olds than I've had with the 68GS so far.

Despite that, it took second place in a BCA car show I took it to without even washing it.

It was an unusual deal but I am happy to have it.

Probably twice as many Olds 442 4spds out there as Buick GSs, don't you think?

[flynbuick]

Especially early year cars.

[buicklawyer]

Mike you know that in order to get the 70 31 car I had to sell the 68 Buick. Believe me it is the best restored car I have ever seen. Gene Wray is a perfectionist and I am lucky to have the car. Timing was bad. As I recall I bought the Buick 5 mins before you contacted the seller. We both won.

[Dave H]

JEA,

You missed the 68 Hurst, that my friend Tom Drew sold on ebay last week. Went for $32k. That was one of the nicest 68 Hursts I've ever seen. I used it as the pattern for the stripes on my 68 W30, but it got away before I got the hood done.

Anyone on here got a 68 Hurst with correct stripes on the hood? Need the dims. Thanks.

[buicklawyer]

Dave I bid on the car. Not interested in paying what it brought although a nice car. Another one showed up on ebay or 442.com in last few days. Seem to me it was rough . Come to think of it Dave it may be a 69. There is a 68 ramrod on ebay now. Right down your alley.

[Brian Stefina]

buicklawyer said: There is a 68 ramrod on ebay now.

It's got to be a clone..............Dave your take? :Do No:

[Gary Rubrich]

It's not just a ramrod, It's a 442 with the ramrod option and 4.10 gears!!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: Just when you think you seen em all.

[Casey Marks]

Gary Rubrich said:It's not just a ramrod, It's a 442 with the ramrod option and 4.10 gears!!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: Just when you think you seen em all.

But I thought that all the *Canadian* built 442-RamRod's used a Chevy axle with available 4.10 gears ?? :moonu:

[Gary Rubrich]

Who woke you from your nap, ya CHEATER??:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Dave H]

My guess is this is a real one that has fallen into the hands of a bull**** artist salesman/company. That's based more on the pics of the car than any of the B.S. written there. I doubt this is the owner of the car and I see no mention of documentation to prove it. All the parts look correct on the car from the pics. Especially the damper and no fan shroud. Without documentation, though, it's impossible to discern.

The condition of the car is remarkably similar to my car which also sat for many, many years. I also wouldn't be surprised if that mileage is 42k instead of 142k. Especially if the engine is correct and not rebuilt (with that gear). Obviously the valve covers have been off it. Love the plug wires, battery cables, and duct tape on the hoses. Very typical of an original car that hasn't been restored.

Car could bring $12k but that's about it from a knowledgable collector. I doubt it's worth the extra $10-$15k it would take to bring it up to snuff.

I didn't know Canadian built Chevy 12 bolts has 4.11 ratios. 4.10 maybe? Moot point since no W cars were ever built in Canada and that's the only place they put Chevy 12 bolts in Cutlasses or 442's.

[Casey Marks]

Dave H said:....

I didn't know Canadian built Chevy 12 bolts has 4.11 ratios. 4.10 maybe? Moot point since no W cars were ever built in Canada and that's the only place they put Chevy 12 bolts in Cutlasses or 442's.

Yep, you're right. I was kiddin' with Rubrich. I know that no '68 "W" cars came with 12-bolt Chevy's ....... :TU:

[Dave H]

I ran the original Olds 3.91 posi the first year when we lost the driveshaft and bellhousing. Decided to put the 4.10 from the 66 in there before we destroyed it, too. I wouldn't run an Olds 12 bolt with a stick shift. The Polyglas hook a lot harder than I thought they would, especially at Norwalk. I bogged the car with a 5000 sidestep after the event last year. Without bing able to preload the suspension and geartrain, that's a lot of shock loading on everything and I don't think the Olds axle will take that as long as the Chevy. As you know, parts are a lot cheaper and plentiful for the Chevy also.

Hey Miller, you listening?



:Brow: :Brow:

[Donny Brass]

Dave H said:

Hey Miller, you listening?



:Brow: :Brow:

Why would Miller be listening, he has a GTO ???

[Dave H]

Had a GTO...........

Just went through the feedback on RM online, the company that's listing that Ramrod. I guess they're a more reputable company than I first thought when I read the description of that car and all the errors and misstatements. Apparently they're a broker for many different companies and individuals. Saw a truck there from Auburn, Indiana as well as a 70 Cuda from California.

He just doesn't know anything about W31's or Ramrods. No crime there, few people do.

[Tom Miller]

455 HO GTO comes with a 12 Bolt:Brow:

[Brian Stefina]

Dave H said:I ran the original Olds 3.91 posi the first year when we lost the driveshaft and bellhousing. Decided to put the 4.10 from the 66 in there before we destroyed it, too. I wouldn't run an Olds 12 bolt with a stick shift. The Polyglas hook a lot harder than I thought they would, especially at Norwalk. I bogged the car with a 5000 sidestep after the event last year. Without bing able to preload the suspension and geartrain, that's a lot of shock loading on everything and I don't think the Olds axle will take that as long as the Chevy. As you know, parts are a lot cheaper and plentiful for the Chevy also.


After 30 years of your abuse........I think the O axle had proven itself. The poly glass don't hook THAT hard.

If the aluminum W-27 axle could take limited abuse then your O axle would be fine. Especially with a 3.3 stroke small block.

I bought a Pontiac with a trans planted O axle that had a 455 with NOS and slicks before the 455 ingested too much funny gas.

Axle......just fine.....and a popular item to sell.

[Casey Marks]

Personally .....

I think the idea that the "O"axle is weak, is a myth.

Bolt-in axles .... caps are decent .... Anti-Spin carriers are now available ..... What exactly is the weak-link ?

Just my thoughts .......

[Dave H]

The aluminum W27 didn't take the abuse and that's why it only lasted one year. Biggest problem was at the housing to tube area. Just was unique, pretty, and a lot less unsprung weight than the cast iron Olds 12 bolt it replaced. I watched John Pirochta design the cover when I worked with him. That is gorgeous. He patterned it after an old quick change from the flathead days. He and his brother, Fred, (OCA senior judge) ran a D altered flathead Model A coupe at Onondaga back then. It was named "Li'l Whine-o". Ran in the 14's with a full body. He also was on the Armco Steel projects with the aluminum engines.

I think it was impact loading that contributed to a lot of the failures. Automatics are a lot less severe there since the convertor can preload the system. (except a transbrake?) Everybody I know that ran a 4 speed had rear end trouble with the Olds axle. Rob ran his for many years with his automatic. Redid it a coupla years ago and I guess it's ready for another 20 years or so. We sure dragged a lot of cars back from Norwalk and Stanton with busted Olds rears with the big block automatics, too. One year there were 3 of our 8 cars at an NSCA meet.

Old Olds racer(can't remember the name) at Casey's shindig was telling me that they used to launch the Ramrods at close to 7000 back when he raced them. Tire technology was a lot different then, but it's nice to pick up the phone and have Dale Smith send out another axle or two whenever you need it. Those 5.00's we built in the axle plant went somewhere. You should see the one that came out of Brady's garage.


The 68 used a one year only axle shafts with unique spline axles. They are unobtainable other than custom made aftermarket. 69 and newer ones don't fit the 68's. Racing with one is not wise. I heard somewhere that you can get repo posi units (Eaton maybe?) and maybe even gear sets now (Supercars Unlimited in Oregon), but for years if you broke it, you park it. They also broke a lot of spider gears.

Easier to run the corporate Chevy 12 bolt and be done with it. Put the Olds axle in the corner.

[Brian Stefina]

I said the W-27 took "limited" abuse.

It had to take "some" or Olds would have stopped it before release.

O axles are fine......heck it out lived your driveshaft.....

30 years of Dave abuse.........I've heard the stories






:laugh:

[Dave H]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Stories are all gross exagertations, loosely based on facts not in evidence, and urban legends.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Funny, that driveshaft was the only component that had been rebuilt at the time it let go. I had it straightened, rebalanced, and reassembled with new spicer U joints at Joint, Clutch, and Gear on Telegraph just before that race. I had noticed a vibration after some serious tire frying at Woodward a couple of weeks before.