My Megasquirt F.I. system

[86regalwith455]

Just finished putting the finishing touches on my Megesquit F.I. system this weekend. I started it for the first time Sat afternoon, and spent the entine day today getting all the settings just right in the ecu. It works EXCELLENT. So far all
I can do is free-rev it on the engine stand, but it idles like a purring kitten, and starts up with a stab of the start button, after much tunning. The engine (355) will be installed in my 88 2500 Chevy pick-up for drivability tuning, and permanent use.
I assembled everything myself, the ecu, relay board, stimulator, wiring, injectors, custom intake and throttle body, fuel system, all of it.
The fuel rails were built by me with 3/4 tubing, custom injector bungs (made by me) and the mounting of the fuel pressure regulator.

The intake is a Holley Street Dominator spread bore single plane intake, purchased at a swap meet for $60. I mounted injector bungs in the ports by drilling 3/4 holes, and epoxying (JB weld), my special made injector bungs in to it.

The throttle body is a modified 1987 MCSS CCC carb, I JB welded all the passages and holes, removed the choke horn, removed the venturies, removed the secondary air valve, removed all internal parts except the T.P.S. sensor.

The injectors and fuel pressure regulator are from the 1989 Olds Quad 4 engines.

All the senosor, and injector connectors were scavenged from the salvage yards.

Fuel pump is after market for Fuel Injection sysyems (max 125 psi), but My system only uses 43 psi. It was Free from a Friend.

After I learn all the ins-and outs of the tunning part, I am going to build another system for the 455 in the Regal!!

Pictures of the engine are here:


http://community.webshots.com/album/143609563JsJMpB?923

If for some reason the link does not work, goto webshots and do a search for user "4speednova"
and goto the Megaquirt F.I. album.

More to come after installation in the the vehical.

ENJOY!

Supernova455

[bobc455]

That is great.

I am curious to know how much experience you have with FI- people occasionally ask me about the Megasquirt, and I've always kinda guessed that it is a good system for someone who is very familiar with FI, but a first-timer might want to try something else. Would you agree?

-Bob Cunningham

[86regalwith455]

Megasquirt is the first F.I. system I have ever built.
All it takes is doing some reaserch, and following the insrtustions
to the MS system. The instrustions are very good...eeerrr correct.

I enjoy the challenges of doing somthing new.

[Adam Whitman]

Kudos to you! Enginuity and willingness to take a challenge always draw my admiration. Please make it a point to keep us posted on how the installation and tuning progress.

[sixtynine462]

It's about time someone did this! If I had the money, I would be doing the same thing. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[86regalwith455]

sixtynine462,
I didn't take alot of money, but it did take ALOT of TIME.

[Leviathan]

With the new SPX the EFI'd 455 may be a more regular occurance.

[sixtynine462]

How did you go about finding the right parts? I guess it would be a little easier using a small block- the fuel delivery requirements aren't nearly as high (read: expensive). I could handle the soldering and stuff no problem... I've been doing that for the last 10 years. I also design PC boards and do some circuit design at my job, so I have a lot of electrical experience. I would be lost when it came time to go hunt through the junkyard.
Clint,
Why do you say that about the SPX? Is it because they have a place for the injectors cast into the manifold?
I know I'd love to have that setup on my stage 2!

[Leviathan]

sixtynine462 said:
Clint,
Why do you say that about the SPX? Is it because they have a place for the injectors cast into the manifold?


Yup. To get the bung placemnet right on a regular SP1 without any help requires a fair bit of paid work. About $500 USD + 275 for the SP-1. Now it's down to $375, and the injector placement is correct!

[sixtynine462]

Cool! That could help justify the cost of buying the new manifold. Man, if I only had the $$. As it is, I will be lucky to get the car finished.

[Jess]

Very interesting !!!!!!

I am glad you posted pics as well, as some of the other members said, thats time well spent.

I actually have a friend who has a complete idea on how to do FI on a 455, using most of the parts from 350 chevy FI, 231 v6, and a holley FI system.

There is talk between us to start this year on one for my pickup as well.

and of course if it works, I would keep all informed.

:grin:

[sixtynine462]

Yeah, my car will be getting one of these systems eventually. The plan is to have a 550hp stage 2 with power brakes, fuel injection, and a gear vendors overdrive unit. Should be able to drive it anywhere!

[86regalwith455]

Well, it's up and running, quite good too! I have worked most of the VE table to perfect. New pics are up. I know it's not a Buick, and I know it's a Chevy pickup truck, buy I needed somthing to test it out on first before I built a system for the 455 in the 86 Regal.

Check out page #2
http://community.webshots.com/album/143609563JsJMpB?923

dean

[Freedster]

Thanks for the pics!

- Freed

[Jess]

WOW!!!! Nice pics..

I wish it were pics of a 455 with headers in a 88 chevy..

I am doing one in a 90 and I do not think headers will fit, the frame rails are very different than the 83 it was in, and that was tight..

Anyone done this swap with headers?

[69RivieraGS]

I built a megasquirt for my turbo camaro a few weeks ago too. It's working out great so far. This car was EFI to begin with so it didn't take as much work as a carbed car would to convert. But it did clean things up fuel wise a lot. Before I was just using a pressure regulator that rased fuel pressure with boost to get more fuel. Now I can run large injectors, tune them to where I want, and still have a nice clean idle...

And don't think I haven't thought about putting this thing on the 430 :Brow:

[Adam Whitman]

Any more progress?

[86regalwith455]

I had one problem since i'v been running the MS. I ran it out of gas!

I has been running great, and starts every time no matter what the temp. or weather. The engine makes so much low end torque that I don't need an idle compesator even with the a/c on full blast and sitting still in gear, and that is with a single plane intake manifold. Throttle responce is superb to any carb I have ever had. All I have to do now is set the table to achive better fuel economy (I have a heavy right foot).

I will be starting to modify my T/A manifold on the 455 in the Regal
for injector bungs to build a similar system for it. I have definatly been bitten by the F.I. BUG!

Dean

[sixtynine462]

I hope to to the same thing to my stage 2 as soon as it gets broken in.

[Adam Whitman]

Great news Dean. I've been thiking of buying a pre-assembled unit and getting started on it for my Skylark. I'll have the manifold drilled and bungs attached before the new intake goes on at the least. Can you do a breakdown of total investment on the project?

[Freedster]

Be interested in hearing that cost breakdown myself. :)

- Freed

[86regalwith455]

It's been a while, so i'll give this post some "CPR",

Intake manifold from swapmeet $60
8 quad 4 injectors from junk yard $40
carb.throttle body $0
Megasquirt ECM and relay board $200
Fuel rail material $10
misc wiring and stuff $50
sensors $25

$385 roughly

I am currently building a sysem for the 455 in the Regal, and will be using
the version 3PCB, Megasquirt II, IAC, and spark tables, and other new stuff.

Dean

[D-Con]

Glad to see you back! I really look forward to seeing how it works when you are done.

[sbbuick]

This is some cool S$%# !

Thanks - I had never heard of megasquirt before reading this thread!

[86regalwith455]

Here are some pictures of the EFI system I have currently under construction for the 455 in the Regal.

It will be utilizing a Megasquirt v2.2 board, BBK TPI 58mm throttle body, T/A sp-1 intake, 30lb injectors, custom made intake plenum, fuel rails, plumbing.

There is still much fabricating to do, so the parts in the picture are unpainted and unpolished.

A full report will be given when the system is functioning on the vehical. Don't expect anything less than 110%!!

Dean

[86regalwith455]

here are the pictures:

[BillMah52]

Dean!!!
Someone stole your pictures!!!! :ball:



Oooops!
Never Mind! :rolleyes:

[69RivieraGS]

Looking very good. It gives me more inspiration for my EFI conversion that I'm collecting parts to do.

Is that TB to carb adapter made up of plates welded together? How do you get to the bolts/nuts that attach it to the intake?

[GSXMEN]

Dean - MegaSquirt(or SDS) definitely seems like the way to go!! :Smarty:

Do you happen to know how the MS system would work with the integrated 4L60e or 4L80e?? I have a '95 G30 Chevy van that I'll be transplanting the 350" TBI and 4L80e trans into my '71 GMC ramptruck at some point in time. Although I'll be able to save the entire wiring harness from the van to use for the TBI & tranny controls, I'd love to know if the MS setup will work with the 'e' trannies?

Part of the reason I'm wondering.....I have an '85 TPI setup from an IROC and would like to upgrade from TBI to TPI with the above engine/trans. The MS would address the engine quite capably - I'm just uncertain how it will play out with the trans.

Also, are the Buick V6 injectors rated higher than the Quad IV's?? I can never remember whether the Quad IV's 'A' or 'D' code was the HO version.

**Just thought of another question for you....Do you think the (90 only)4.5l or all 4.9l V8 Cadillac TB's would work, since it is also port FI??

Thanks!! :bglasses: BTW...your conversions have come out fantastic!!! :3gears:

[86regalwith455]

69RivieraGS,
The intake plenum bolts to the intake from the inside, the bolts are accesed through the throttle body hole. I actually used short carb studs to mount it. It is made of 6x6 extrudded beam, I had to section an inch out of the hieght for hood clearence, I welded a plate of the same mateial to the front and back to box it in.

GSXMEN,
I do not know if someone has developed code to control the "e" tranny with Megasquirt yet. I think Bowling&Grippo might be working on a seperate stand alone controller for those trannies, but I am not positive. Check the message board: msefi.com.

The quad 4 injectors are so far, the largest I have found, that are plentifiul and cheap in the salvage yards, as far as codes go, I do not have any information, I just looked up the part number on the injector. So far all quad 4 injectors I have pulled have had the same part number that shows them as 30lb units. Maybe I just got lucky, haha

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

There's some info on it here:
http://www.megasquirt.info/4L60E/index.html

It's still under development but you can see the comments on it in this forum:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4699&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[GSXMEN]

Thanks for the info & links guys!! :TU:

[69RivieraGS]

The quad 4 injectors are so far, the largest I have found, that are plentifiul and cheap in the salvage yards, as far as codes go, I do not have any information, I just looked up the part number on the injector. So far all quad 4 injectors I have pulled have had the same part number that shows them as 30lb units. Maybe I just got lucky, haha

Dean

What kinds of cars are these coming from? Is that what you're using as the port injectors in your converted SP1?

[Freedster]

Nice megasquirt article I came across the other day:

http://grmotorsports.com/news/102005/megacapable-beating-the-man-with-diy-fuel-injection-from-megasquirt.php

- Freed

[86regalwith455]

69RivieraGS,

The Quad 4 engine can be found in the late 80's and 90's GM front drive cars, like Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs, and the like.

I will be using 8 Quad 4 injector on the 455 to start with, they were only $5 each, so the price is right. haha

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

Hmm. Ok.

I found some info on it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Quad-4_engine

Look under LD9. It mentions they switched from low to high impedance injectors. If somehow you got some low impedance injectors make sure you use the flyback board since you're using the v2.2 megasquirt main board.

[69RivieraGS]

Just FYI:

"High impedance injectors (usually about 12-16 ohms) can take a 12 supply directly, without a form of current control. Low impedance injectors (generally below 3 ohms) require some form of current limiting."

from: http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm

[86regalwith455]

69RivieraGS,

ThAnks for the info, I was aware of the "z" factor on the injectors I have already collected, they are low z ones confirmed by the part number. I have 16 injectors total, and the 8 best are going on the 455. I already have the flyback board installed on my ecu. I have run 8 of these injectors straight off the ecm with the PWM with no problem exept for Q1 running warm. But the flyback board will give me "piece of mind" that I don't overheat somthing far far awat from home.

I have 2 complete v2.2 board ecm's up and running, one is in My 88 Chevy truck "as seen on webshots", the other I have kept as a backup unit. But since I do not use the truck on the street anymore, (it was basically a Megasquirt test bed) I will put a carb on it so as to keep a spare ecm in the Regal when driving. Note: I have not had ANY reliability issues with the two ecm's I built, but you always have to have spare parts, just in case.

here is a pic of one of my Megaquirts ecm's, the flyback board is attached to the outside because I just could not get it to fit inside.

[86regalwith455]

It will be running soon. Just have to mount the fuel pump, run new fuel line, install manifold, wiring.

Dean

[D-Con]

Alright! keep going, I'm excited every time you post an update.

[69GSCAL]

Just FYI:

"High impedance injectors (usually about 12-16 ohms) can take a 12 supply directly, without a form of current control. Low impedance injectors (generally below 3 ohms) require some form of current limiting."

from: http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm

Oaky Doaky!
I'm not a mechanich bye any means, BUT! I do know my electronics/ resistance.

Mmmmm, I think you know what your talking about; but are having a difficult time getting your point across.

Check out Ohm's Law.

There is no argument; this is a fact!

[69RivieraGS]

Check out Ohm's Law.



You mean like this?

I = V/R

high impedence:
I = 12v/15ohms = 0.8A

low impedence:
I = 12v/3ohms = 4.0A

So lower resistance/impedence injectors require more current.

I just pulled that explaination above off of that web site.

And a little update on my 430 Megasquirt project...
I've been collecting fuel fittings and a fuel pressure regulator(Aeromotive A1000 w/ -10AN inlets). I just have a few more fittings to get then I can start machining my fuel rail extrusion stock I have. I'm planning on using a SPX intake. Then I'll need a pump, and a way to rig up my dual throttle body.
I already have a Megasquirt to use. I'm also working on converting a stock points distributor w/ an internal pick-up and use a HEI-7 external module so that the Megasquirt can control the timing as well as fuel.

[86regalwith455]

Just an update on progress.

I have finished the final install of all componants in the engine compartment. The fuel pump and fuel line and plumbing in the rear of the car still needs to be done. I have all the parts for the remaining fuel system, so I might work on it during the week after work. If not, I should have the fuel system complete by next weekend. And then it will be time to fire the fuel injection system for the first time.

Have fun looking at the final installation of the components under the hood.

Any questions or comments are welcome.

Dean

[DaWildcat]

Looking great, Dean! Fingers crossed for the fire-up.

Devon

[D-Con]

How difficult was it to make the fuel rails?

[69RivieraGS]

It does look great. I hope it runs well too. It looks like you're running the same regulator I'll be running. It's an Aeromotive, right? Except mine has -10AN inlets.

I'm going to try and run o-ring fittings on the ends of the fuel rails. I just don't like messing with NPT if I don't have to.


Fuel rail extrusion can be found here:
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/extrusion.html

I got 3' of the -10 stuff to make mine out of. And here's some tips on machining them:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3628
http://not2fast.com/audi/5ktqa/ms-2004/ericPics/

[86regalwith455]

D-con, the fuel rails are easy, all that is needed is a 47/64 drill bit to drill the injector holes, and an 1/4 npt pipe tap for the rail ends. The rail stock can be cut to length with a carbide blade in a miter box saw.

Dean

[86regalwith455]

I made a mistake on the drill bit size for the injector holes in the fuel rail. It is a 17/32" drill bit (.531).

Dean

[D-Con]

the injectors thread into the rail? (sorry, never done anything like this before)

[69RivieraGS]

the injectors thread into the rail? (sorry, never done anything like this before)

No, the injectors just push into the .531" hole he's talking about and they seal w/ an o-ring. The NPT threads he's using are for the fittings where the fuel line connect to the ends of the fuel rails.

Dean, how did you set the height at which the injectors pushed into the rail? Just w/ how you fixed the rails position with a bracket?

[D-Con]

So, just a standard .531" hole with no taper or seat or anything like that?

[69RivieraGS]

I was going to make mine more like what's shown here:
http://not2fast.com/audi/5ktqa/ms-2004/ericPics/hole1.jpg

Also, this place rents a tool to make the holes in one fail swoop:
http://kinsler.com/Cat_31_Web_HTMLs/0201234_screen53.html

[86regalwith455]

69RivieraGS, I have a picture that should explain your question.

I also used a larger drill bit to chamfer the injector hole to ease installation of the injectors into the holes in the fuel rail. Then polished and deburred with 400 grit sand paper.

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

Wow, that's nice. I wasn't even planning on running any type of clip in mine. But I like how you implimented it.

[86regalwith455]

Those are 1/2" e-clips from the hardware store. The injectors are very easy to remove, just loosen the screw, turn injector 180 degress and pull. The little screws are basically just to hold the injectors in place during removal of the rails from the intake manifold.

Dean

[Page2171]

Looking forward to hearing more about the project. I have been following this thread closely since I heard about Megasquirt. I am planning on Megasquirtin' the 401 in my Electra, I am in the beginning planning stages on that now.

[nekkidhillbilly]

doing one for my 401 too just curious how it will work with a 700r4 i would really like to do a 4l60e so it could be computer controlled but the mega squirt wont do that im curious if i can have a factory gm ecm reprogrammed and work the 401

[69RivieraGS]

They're working on it:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4699

But I believe it is a second megasquirt dedicated to controlling the transmission.

[nekkidhillbilly]

yeah it does but it would be cheaper to do a holley or something of that nature to control everything there only a grand but if a gm factory may work with it would be extremley cheap

[69RivieraGS]

cheaper? I got my first unassembled complete megasquirt kit for $140. I built a second by scrounding up parts for ~$100.

[nekkidhillbilly]

thought they were 400 bucks

[69RivieraGS]

That's the beauty of Megasquirt.

Even the pre-assembled ones are $240-$250. That way you don't have to mess around with soldering it all together.

www.glensgarage.com
http://www.rs-autosport.com/v2.htm

Actually, I just looked at the newer versions and assembled...they do get up to $400...but I'm running the older one and it works great!

[nekkidhillbilly]

seems like a factory gm one could be reprogramed with the buick firing order for 250 bucks and do everything needed could be wrong though. im kinda dumb when it comes to this stuff. i understand the basic concept and the tuning and how to hook everything up. but have trouble with wiring in the tranny and building the boards

[nekkidhillbilly]

That's the beauty of Megasquirt.

Even the pre-assembled ones are $240-$250. That way you don't have to mess around with soldering it all together.

www.glensgarage.com
http://www.rs-autosport.com/v2.htm

Actually, I just looked at the newer versions and assembled...they do get up to $400...but I'm running the older one and it works great!

thanks i saw some places wanting 380 bucks for them

[silvergs72]

If anyone's interested I have one I bought about a year ago with the digital readout but never had time to finish it. It is about 25% assembled and I just don't have any time. $100.00 would take everything I got.

Mike

[86regalwith455]

Some good news! It runs!

I got it running sunday, and have tuned it to idle, and start up real good.
So far, I have it driven down the street, and around the block. At idle and low speeds my fuel map is pretty good. I have not been able to get into the throttle hard yet because I can only make adjustments sitting in the driveway because the battery in my laptop computer is dead, and will not charge up. I will have to by a power inverter to power the laptop so I can motor down the road and tune while someone else just drives the car.

I am very pleased with the performance at this point in time. In comparison to the carberator, the throttle responce UNBELIEVABLE! It is very sensative, and very easy to spin the tires when starting from a stop, just somthing I will have to get used to "finnessing" the throttle. More to come after I get my full thottle dialed in. And maybe a short video clip to follow.

Dean

[D-Con]

Good job! :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:

[86regalwith455]

The system is running very good now with some tuning. One thing I have found out is that the quad 4 injectors don't seem to be 30lbs units as listed,
I think they are more like 17lbs/hr. This is bacause I just could not get the VE map numbers in the ball park where they should. But as I played around with the numbers, and doing some guessing/estimating, entering the the figure of around 17lb injectors, my tuning parameters became realistic, and the perfromance proved it. Idle, throttle responce and low and midrange torque are outstanding, but the injectors just wont supply the demand of fuel needed past 4000rpm. So i have orderd some "real" 30lb injectors from Summit, which should be good for around 400-450 hp. I should be able to have those installed and tuned in in about a week or two. And then its off to the RACE TRACK again!!

Dean

[bobc455]

That's odd... what fuel pressure are you running?

-Bob Cunningham

[69RivieraGS]

That's great that you got it running. Good job! I thought that 30's from a stock V6 sounded big. The stock ones from my 3.4L 94 camaro are 17#/hr. Real 30's should do really well. I went through some calculations with my 430 a while back and came up with 410hp running a 255lph pump, 24lb/hr injectors running at 70 psi fuel pressre. That's at a 13:1 A/F ratio.
I also came up with 520hp running a 255lph pump, 36lb/hr injectors running at 50psi with a 13:1 A/F ratio.

One thing I noticed with your intake setup...do you think 1/4" fuel line is a bit too small? Especially for a 455. I'm going way overboard and running -10AN line(5/8") everywhere. I shouldn't really need that much unless I'm going to be running a monster 500+ in^3 1000hp motor...but you never know :3gears:

But from looking at stock stuff, my 3.4L V6 from the factory came with a 3/8" feed fuel line and a 5/16" return line. Just something you might want to keep an eye on.

[86regalwith455]

I first had fuel pressure set a 43.5 psi, which is where the factory quad 4 regulator was set at on the car the injectors are from. I have upped the fuel pressure to 45 at the time being, but have suspended all tuning untill I install the new injectors. The motor runs and drives great, as I had expected and maybe a little better. I just can't get over 4000rpm without my duty cycle on the injectors going to 100% very quicky, and then the motor sounds like it's on a rev limiter. Using Megatune to richen the fuel map just makes the duty cylce reach 100% sooner, and my o2 sensor will still show very low voltage, like .1 or .2 (wide band).

It idles silky smooth, and the low and mid range torque is brutal (pushing shoulder blades into seat), I love it!!

Dean

[86regalwith455]

Oh yea, i'm running -6 fuel feel line, and -4 return, I think that should be more than enuff.

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

Oh yea, i'm running -6 fuel feel line, and -4 return, I think that should be more than enuff.

Dean

Oh, ok. At some point you had mentioned having 1/4" NPT threads in your fuel rail and from the pictures it looked like that front SS braided cross-over hose was 1/4"(-4). But yea, I'd think 3/8"(-6) line would be good for a feed unless you start getting extream. I just wanted to never have to upgrade the engine lines so I went with -10 feed and -8 return...I'll never come close to out growing that.

[86regalwith455]

Just installed my new Accell 30lb injectors, they fit perfect in my custom fuel rails. Finished a little bit of tuning for the evening. They are working perfect, I have been able to tune the idle silky smooth, and have not had a single spit or sputter from it. All that is left now to do is find what fuel pressure they work best at because there was no litirature with them saying what fuel pressure they are rated at. My fuel pressure regulator is still at 45 psi. I might turn it back down to 43.5psi and see how it does. If any one knows what the best fuel pressure they operate at, please let me know.

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

To my knowledge all injectors are rated at 43.5psi. Although I don't think it's usually that critical since most fuel rail gauges aren't even accurate enough to measure a pressure down to the half psi.

You've probably seen this before but there's a little calculator on this page that tells you what an injectors flow rate will be if you change the pressure:
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm#size

I would say set your fuel pressure to some where around 43-44 and tell megasquirt you're running 30#/hr injectors and then tune the VE table with your wideband.
I'm using 36#/hr injectors in my 3.4L megasquirted V6 and I'm running ~44-45psi or so and I just told megasquirt that they're 36# and the VE looked pretty good after getting the A/F ratios what I wanted with my wideband.

Good luck! And thanks for leading the way in megasquirted big block buicks. I hope to follow soon...

[Nothingface5384]

awsome that u got the car running, fuelinjectedf 455s sounds cool, what kinda gas milage do u think you'll be getting when u get it tuned just right?

can this be done with a buick350?

[86regalwith455]

I just shot a short vid of the engine, I will post a link as soon as it gets to me from Streetfire. Right now fuel consumption is high, because of all the driving, and throttling to get it tuned. I don't expect great gas mileage out of it, probably about 10-12mpg on a good day, but I have a heavy foot so more like 8mpg LOL. The carb gave me 15mpg on the highway, but does not have near the throttle responce, or push in the seat that the FI gives.

Here is a picture of the completed set up.
Dean

[Bryan C.]

Very nice. Looking at this is getting me all excited for my FI 455 project.

[D-Con]

Sorry if I overlooked it, but where did you get the fuel-rail extrusions from?

I ordered the MSD injector pocket drill-bit last week for my K-B Wildcat intake. :)

[86regalwith455]

I purchaced my fuel rail extrusion from the site below.
It takes exactly one foot in length to do each side. I got 4' in case I made a serious mistake I could not fix. I drilled a 3/8 pilot hole, and then used a 17/64 drill bit for the injector hole, then used a 45 degree stone to chamfer the edge to ease injector installation. I used 1/4" npt -6 fittings on the ends, but next time I will use -6 o-ring fittings to ease installation of the fuel hose.

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/extrusion.html

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

Sorry if I overlooked it, but where did you get the fuel-rail extrusions from?

I ordered the MSD injector pocket drill-bit last week for my K-B Wildcat intake. :)


Where did you get this drill bit? I know of a company that will rent one but I wasn't away that MSD made one! Thanks!

[D-Con]

Jegs PN 121-2160 Summit # MSD-2160 $155.00

I might sell mine once I am done with it. I needed to buy as my schedule makes renting a logistical problem.

[86regalwith455]

I only paid $8 for the 17/64th drill bit at a local tool supply house.
After drilling the 3/8 pilot hole, the 17/64 will cut the fuel rail like butter, but don't go all the way through, the 3/8 pilot hole is plenty big enuff to feed the injector. You MUST use a brill press, and clamp the rail down or the holes will not be straight.

Dean

[D-Con]

This drills the manifold side injector pocket. I'd be bummed for me (happy for you) if you replaced that with and $8 bit....

Let me know as it's currently on b/o and I can cancel it...

[86regalwith455]

Your drilling the manifold? I see. You should be able to do that the same way I did my fuel rails. Start with a pilot hole (3/8"), then follow with the 17/32" drill bit, go all the way through. What type of injectors are you using?
Do you have a drill press, or are you doing it free hand?

I don't see why you have to buy such an expensive tool.

In my last post 17/64 should be 17/32.

Dean

[69RivieraGS]

I agree that drill is way too expensive. But on the plus side you should be able to do both the manifold and fuel rail with the same bit if you should chose to keep it on order.

[D-Con]

Your drilling the manifold? I see. You should be able to do that the same way I did my fuel rails. Start with a pilot hole (3/8"), then follow with the 17/32" drill bit, go all the way through. What type of injectors are you using?
Do you have a drill press, or are you doing it free hand?

I don't see why you have to buy such an expensive tool.

In my last post 17/64 should be 17/32.

Dean

Hey, I'm all for that! I'll cancel the order tomorrow.

I'm a bit confused though, as if I go all the way though with the 17/32, how does the o-ring seat? I thought the hole was shouldered with a tapered seat for the o-ring?

I will use at least a drill press if not a mill.

I have no idea on injector type at this point. You tell me! I want something conventional in dimensions. Should be ~50 #/hr to support 600 HP (I might get there someday).

[86regalwith455]

D-con,

The 17/32 drill bit makes the hole the correct size for the injector o-ring, about .531. Use the Quad 4 style injector, which is the same style as say an 88' TPI injector, and a 90' Bronco w/351w injector. The Accell injectors (acc-150830)are for an 88' Camaro w/TPI, they fit exact in replacement of the Quad 4 injectors I built my fuel rails around.

Dean

[D-Con]

Like these? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Delphi-50-lb-hr-525cc-Fuel-Injectors-50-hr_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33554QQitemZ80318943 15QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

[86regalwith455]

That's the style!

Dean

[D-Con]

How is your tuning going? Everything dialed in nicely?

[86regalwith455]

It's running excellent now that I have the correct size injectors. I plan on going to the race track in Feb.

Dean

[nrh trans]

JB Weld becomes soft at 250 degees F.. It will at 200 degees become dissosiated by the fuel and fail. Carry a fire extinguisher or be sad so so very sad. PS. tig welding is not at all difficult , Jessy James has mastered it and he's a blithering idiot.

[86regalwith455]

Finally found my short vid on Streetfire:

http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=5128234D-DCC7-450E-9DBA-ADB858099306


Dean

[tlivingd]

gettin really intrested in a megaquirt system. what are you guys squirtin using for ignition control? I'd really like to play with ignition timing when I do mine. I'm debating on using MSII or MSI with the E software support extention. oh btw. first gen turbo eclipses and talons have perfect factory injectors for us hitting 520 hp with a 455 and the eclipse guys are dumping them on ebay for about 45 to 60 bucks for 4. :Smarty:

I'd love to see some fuel ignition maps if you have em.

-nate

[DualQuad55]

Hi,
I am looking for some info to do the same type of set up. I have much available from the Northstar 4.6L engines at work.
Do you know where I can find the flowrate (lb/hr) of these injectors? My brother works in the parts dept and can not get any info through GM.
I have checked a few sites listed on this thread and others but can not come up with any info. They supply 300hp from the factory, but I don't know if they will handle 400+hp. Does Cubic inch displacement factor in at all, or just est. hp?
How do you adjust the fuel curve? do you just keep adding/subtracting fuel pulse width until you reach the correct O2 readings? is there a chart you can go off?
I wish to run bare minimum sensors such as TPS, MAP, O2, coolant. This should suffice to fire off the injectors, no?
How much change is needed when changing throttle body flow rate/size? I am looking for a set up that would allow easy changing of throttle valve/bodies to creat different looks.
Any info would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.

[tlivingd]

Hi,
I am looking for some info to do the same type of set up. I have much available from the Northstar 4.6L engines at work.
Do you know where I can find the flowrate (lb/hr) of these injectors? My brother works in the parts dept and can not get any info through GM.
I have checked a few sites listed on this thread and others but can not come up with any info. They supply 300hp from the factory, but I don't know if they will handle 400+hp. Does Cubic inch displacement factor in at all, or just est. hp?
How do you adjust the fuel curve? do you just keep adding/subtracting fuel pulse width until you reach the correct O2 readings? is there a chart you can go off?
I wish to run bare minimum sensors such as TPS, MAP, O2, coolant. This should suffice to fire off the injectors, no?
How much change is needed when changing throttle body flow rate/size? I am looking for a set up that would allow easy changing of throttle valve/bodies to creat different looks.
Any info would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.

I'd have to look on the flowrate. CI does factor somewhat in hp, but x amount of fuel will give Y amount of energy. If i subtract the losses of an engine from that amount of energy it should come up with a close amount of hp.

you can run it backwards. for example. I want about 450-500 hp. now the Injectors i've chosen support about 500-550 hp. they are 450cc/minute injectors when I use 8. There is a table in the Megasquirt manual that you can use for injector sizing and will get you close. but this also depends on how much air you can get into and out of the engine.

The fuel curve is decided by the O2 sensor. your actually looking for what they call stoichmetric ratio. gasoline has a specific ratio it likes to run at and make power at and slow down at. I believe with perfect automotive combustion and to hold speed you want about 14:1. acceleration you add more fuel. thus changing the ratio i think closer to 18:1. deceleration is closer to 11:1 (running lean) http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/mtune.htm

I'm actually going to run mine w/o a TPS sensor with a rochester carb used as a TB. i'm going to base mine on my MAP sensor to know when i'm accelerating or decelerating. I will then need an O2 and temp sensors.
I'm not using a TPS because of the huge diffrence in size of the air flow valves from the primary to secondary valves and since they don't move together I cant just use it as a percentage.

All I can recommend is to read everything on the site www.megasquirt.info. Above are plans i'm doing and have not done so yet.

the injectors work like a wall switch. they're either on or off. but they turn on and off very quickly. pulse width is how long they turn on for until the next cycle. if they're on they will just spray fuel. if their off they're off. now lets say the lights on to your house turn on and off 1 second apart. (you'll see that they're on and off.) now lets turn them on and off in a half second. but their cycle is still one second long. so they come on and off twice.

now lets say you want to accelerate that your injector is on for that full second. it will get 100cc of fuel. (for example) now lets say you want to cruze and it takes half the fuel. the injector will stay open for half second and dump 50cc of fuel wait half a second till the next command. now lets say you want to idle. (the injector only stays open for .25 of a second) and will wait 3/4 of a second waiting for the next command. you should now have 25cc of fuel.

now imagine instead of a second it does this in hundredths of a second.

hope this makes sense

[69RivieraGS]

There's a great tool here for judging injector sizes:
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm#size

I usually use this as a general tool and then once I get the system running I'll check what air/fuel ratio I'm running at different RPMs and make sure the injector duty cycles are not getting close to 90% at high RPMs. If they are, then I'd need to go to a larger injector.

Duty cycle is the percentage that an injector is open per intake rotation time. Say you're spinning at 5000 rpm. One rev would last 0.012sec, or 12ms (5000rev/min * 1 min/60sec = 83.3rev/sec, then take the inverse to get sec/rev = 0.012s/rev). But you're only taking in fuel every 2 revs(4-cycle engine), so you multiply that number by 2. So one intake cycle is 24ms(12ms*2 = 24ms). Now, if your injectors have to stay open for 21ms to give your engine enough fuel for that engine condition then you'd have a duty cycle of 87.5% (21ms/24ms = 0.875)

I'm currently running a megasquirt on my 94 V6 camaro that I added a turbocharger to. I monitor my actual air/fuel ratio realtime with a wideband O2 sensor. You can use a narrow band sensor(the kind used on pretty much all domestic and most imports since the '80s) but the only info you can get out of a narrow band is if you're running a stoicheometric mixture(14.7:1 -> 14.7 lbs of air for every 1 lb of fuel). They will tell you if you are lean(higher A/F ratio) or rich(lower A/F ratio) but not by how much. A wide band sensor tells you exactly what A/F ratio you're running at any time. It's really the only way to tune an EFI system, otherwise you're flying blind. And Wide bands aren't nearly as expensive as they used to be. I run this one:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=16169&cat=253&page=1

It doesn't have a gage to mount in your dash but it connects directly to the megasquirt and gives it your mixture information and if you have a laptop in the car you can view the A/F ratio along with all of the other info for your engine on the screen. Innovate also sells one with a gage but it's $400. But once you get your fuel table all set up you shouldn't have to monitor the A/F ratio.

On my turbocharged V6 I run a rich mixture when under boost(~12:1 or 11.5:1). But for just a naturally aspirated car you'd probably see max power under WOT somewhere around 13:1 or so. The factory sets up most cars to cruise at 14.7 because it represents complete combustion and has the least amount of emmissions. It's a good balance btwn emmissions and economy. I have been playing around with lean cruise on my car. I think some car manufactures had played around with it but essintially what it is is leaning out your mixture when you're just cruising down the highway and part throttle and not needing much power at all. I leaned mine out to ~16:1 - 16.5:1 when just cruising down the highway and it improved my gas mileage by 2-3 MPG.

With megasquirt you basically just change the values in the fuel table to change the mixture at any given engine condition(based on RPM and manifold pressure). You just increase the values if you need more fuel and decrese them if you need less. Taking datalogs of runs and then looking at them to see where the table needs to be changed is usually the way I do it.

As far as sensors, megasquirt needs MAP, coolant, intake air temp, O2, and TPS. But tlivingd brought up a good point. If you're throttle body isn'y very linear in flow with respect to throttle shaft position, you can ignore the TPS and just set up megasquirt to look for fast changes in MAP signal to see if you need to add an acceleration enrichment(just like the accelerator pump on a quadrajet).

Hope this helps to answer some of your questions.

[69RivieraGS]

gettin really intrested in a megaquirt system. what are you guys squirtin using for ignition control? I'd really like to play with ignition timing when I do mine. I'm debating on using MSII or MSI with the E software support extention. oh btw. first gen turbo eclipses and talons have perfect factory injectors for us hitting 520 hp with a 455 and the eclipse guys are dumping them on ebay for about 45 to 60 bucks for 4. :Smarty:

I'd love to see some fuel ignition maps if you have em.

-nate


I'm working on building up a 430 to run off a megasquirt right now. I'm working on converting my stock points distrubutor to a magnetic pick-up. I can then use a 7 or 8 pin HEI GM module and megasquirt to control the timing. You could also just use the 455 HEI distributor and feed the magnatic pick-up signal to a 7 or 8 pin HEI module and do the same thing. I just wanted to convert my points distributor because I like the smaller profile, instead of the huge cap and body that the HEI distributors have.
Here's the info on running the 7-pin HEI with megasquirt:
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/setup-hei7.html

[69RivieraGS]

Hi,
I am looking for some info to do the same type of set up. I have much available from the Northstar 4.6L engines at work.
Do you know where I can find the flowrate (lb/hr) of these injectors? .

If I had to guess on the injector sizes of the 4.6L 300hp Northstar I'd say around 24-26 lbs/hr. But that is just a guess. A 5.7L 270hp camaro LT1 engine uses 24lb/hr injectors, just for comparison.

[69RivieraGS]

oh btw. first gen turbo eclipses and talons have perfect factory injectors for us hitting 520 hp with a 455 and the eclipse guys are dumping them on ebay for about 45 to 60 bucks for 4. :Smarty:


Are you sure that the injectors from eclipses and talons are the standard bosch style that are used in pretty much every domestic car? The bottoms of these look a little wierd:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1G-4G63-2-0-Injectors-Non-Turbo-Talon-Eclipse-Laser_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33554QQitemZ80527 36537QQrdZ1

It doesn't look like the standard o-ring at the bottom as with other injectors. If they did work however that would be awesome. I'd have to get some for my turbo V6 as well as my duty cycles are getting pretty maxed out with my current 36 lb/hr injectors from a pontiac grand am GTP.

[87GN@Tahoe]

is the megasquirt system a sequential system or a batch-fire system?

[69RivieraGS]

It's batch. It can either fire all the injectors at once or you can alternate btwn two channels in an even time interval. I have mine set to alternate btwn each bank to even out pressure surges in the fuel rail.

Sequential requires a camshaft position sensor and more detailed timing along with seperate channels to control each injector individually.

[tlivingd]

he's right it's batch. there are people working on making and have sequential injection. (it's in beta phases right now) I am looking forward to sequential injection. thats where fuel savings come into play. their is also talk that the equipment that does sequential injection is the same equipment that can be used for electronicly controled transmissions.
hm... Z06 6 speed paddle shifting transmission. *drool*
-nate

[NJBuickRacer]

The fuel curve is decided by the O2 sensor. your actually looking for what they call stoichmetric ratio. gasoline has a specific ratio it likes to run at and make power at and slow down at. I believe with perfect automotive combustion and to hold speed you want about 14:1. acceleration you add more fuel. thus changing the ratio i think closer to 18:1. deceleration is closer to 11:1 (running lean)

That's backwards, 18:1 is lean, 11:1 is rich. For NA, a good starting point is 12.5:1 at WOT, and 14.5:1 at low load cruise. You shouldn't hit anywhere near 18:1 unless you are in a decel condition and tune for decel "enleanment". I have tuned enough LS1s and LT1s to get a good feel for tuning FI, so if anyone needs help with A/Fs and timing maps PM me.

I've been thinking about building one of these for a while. I have enough spare sensors, and EFI harnesses to cut up, so I may put one together and install it on something in the off-season. FYI, stock GN injectors are 28#, the replacements commonly used are 30# high-z injectors and can be picked up off the turbo Buick boards used in sets of 6 for under $75. Another alternative is stock LS1 injectors, they are high impedance 26-28 pounders (depending on year, late 90s were 28s), and can be had for under $100 for a used set of 8.

[sawblade]

I have made the decision to go with a Megasquirt system on my 64 Riviera with a 455 under the hood.I plan on setting up a TPI system on it.I am thinking of using an Offy duel quad intake for my intake and modifying it with a plenum where the carbs would go.My thinking is that I should be able to get away with a short plenum,but long as hood clearance is an issue.I really don't want a hood scope.All thoughts welcome.Jeff

[CTX-SLPR]

I just designed a 8th order harmonic tunnel ram for my nailhead that fit under the hood but EFI is reserved for the V6 that will take the nailhead's place. A 455 would be harder to make a tunnel ram for since its a wet intake but its possible. The new SPX intake from TA is available with EFI injector bungs machined. You'd want a plenum around 80% of the engine displacement.
I've seen someone build a 455 EFI intake with an Offy dual quad intake, 2 holley baseplates for throttle plates, and 3" exhauste pipe sectioned and welded together for a plenum. You could do much the same and machine out the plenums under the carb mounts and put an LT1/TPI style 58mm twin blade on the front.

[sawblade]

I just designed a 8th order harmonic tunnel ram for my nailhead that fit under the hood but EFI is reserved for the V6 that will take the nailhead's place. A 455 would be harder to make a tunnel ram for since its a wet intake but its possible. The new SPX intake from TA is available with EFI injector bungs machined. You'd want a plenum around 80% of the engine displacement.
I've seen someone build a 455 EFI intake with an Offy dual quad intake, 2 holley baseplates for throttle plates, and 3" exhauste pipe sectioned and welded together for a plenum. You could do much the same and machine out the plenums under the carb mounts and put an LT1/TPI style 58mm twin blade on the front.

Well its nice to know that someone else out there has done something similar to what I am trying to do.

[Jim Blackwood]

Just found this thread. I have MS-II on my blown 215 and also on my I-H 392. With the 392 I run 36lb injectors that I bought off ebay for a hundred or so. It's easy to make an injector flow bench. You need a harness and a fuel rail, some switches, a stand of some sort, a fuel pump and a battery and stopwatch and an ice cube relay is handy. Plus something to catch and measure with. Junkyard parts work fine.

I bent up a stand out of 1/8" lexan, mounted three rocker switches and a relay and had an overhang that the fuel rail can clip on to. For catch tubes a set of graduated beakers is best but I made up some out of 1" clear tube from the pet supply and plexiglass bases, then measured and marked them in oz and cc increments. Using a stock FPR I can time them at full-on to get a flow rate and compare between injectors for balance. If any need backflushed I just put them in backwards. The third switch puts the relay in the circuit, wired to run as a buzzer. This cycles the injectors and is useful for cleaning and for comparing cycling flow rates.

Most people say don't run gasoline through the bench but I've had no problems doing it. I set up a table outside, set a fire extinguisher nearby, drop the fuel pickup and return into the gas can, put the tubes under and around the injector tips, hook up the battery and go. Not much vapor escapes that way. Not smart to run them without the tubes though, it's surprising how much gas they can put out. And definitely not smart to run them indoors.

btw, both vehicles run great and are very easy to tune, both fuel and ignition. Idle speed too. I'd never messed with any sort of fuel injection and I scratch built both systems. Not hard at all, but does take a little time.

Jim

[tlivingd]

..
btw, both vehicles run great and are very easy to tune, both fuel and ignition. Idle speed too. I'd never messed with any sort of fuel injection and I scratch built both systems. Not hard at all, but does take a little time.

Jim


Jim, what did you end up doing for the idle speed. it's somewhere I'm still hunting for ideas on how I want to implement it.

-nate

[Jim Blackwood]

Nate, I've used the ford IAC for the last two systems I've installed but I used a idle air solenoid the first time and the next system uses the GM IAC. The GM gives the most versatile and precise control simply because the developers are predominantly GM guys so it is more refined but the ford is a 2 wire hookup where the GM uses 4. Basically the ford unit is stepped control with about 10 steps. I think the GM may be continuously variable but since I've not installed it yet I don't know for sure. A solenoid will work for earlier MS controllers, and there is even a Bosch unit that has no external controls and is smooth in closing but I think mixture control with it might be a little tricky during warmup.

Jim

[69RivieraGS]

Hey Jim,

Do you have any pictures of any of those idle controls?

The 4 wire GM unit is actually a stepper motor where the plunger can be moved to different positions and held there. The ford unit is like you said just a solenoid that is pulsed to give the desired flow of air.

I don't have any megasquirt-IIs so I can't use the GM unit. But I could use the ford. I've installed a megasquirt on my turbocharged V6 camaro but I never put a idle control on it. I'm also working on building up a system for one of my 430's. I have all the parts I just need to get to fabricating.

Is the ford control pretty acurate for you? Does it hold the same desired idle speed at cold and hot engine conditions?

[tlivingd]

Jim, I'm between a Ford and the GM. Did you make a ported mounting block for the GM IAC? I'd rather use a GM one as I already have the IAC out of a Northstar and out of a Cavaler. However they mount into the throttle body thus needing the ported block. The Northstar one requires and gives a larger opening thus allowing more air. I'm guessing this is necessary with the BBB. Unless I make up some of it with my gutted rochester's factory idle adjust then I can use the Cavaler one.

The ford version only takes a plate bolted to the front of it with a pair of nipples to connect hoses to, and I like that due to it's mounting simplicity of fabrication.

BTW I will be running a MS II with a V3 board. -nate

[Jim Blackwood]

Sorry to take so long getting back. With the standard MS (not MS-II) I used a simple Idle Air Solenoid (IAS) as opposed to an IAC and it functioned in a on/off manner. This was helpful for warmup but not the least bit progressive, and I really think that for that sort of a setup the Bosch standalone unit is probably better and have heard good reports from guys who used them. One of the problems with an IAS is finding something at a reasonable cost that flows enough. I used a fuel selector solenoid but more flow would have been much better.

The ford IAC which uses pulse width modulation to control the variable opening has good flow and control and as a 2 wire is an easy retrofit to an IAS install and as noted can be plumbed easily. I'll try to get some photos later when it's a little warmer. The software gives you 10 temperature steps for opening so it's pretty controllable. You can set the temps and the opening. I did have one issue with the v2.2/v2.0 MS-II setup though which I haven't resolved. After initial startup the IAC gradually closes at which point the engine nearly dies and the controller resets, after which everything is fine. I suspect something in my settings is causing it because it seems to be a unique problem. However because Ford is not the mainstream this doesn't get the attention it would if it was a similar issue with the GM IAC. The v3.0/2.0 install works fine though and it may be a vehicle specific problem.

The GM unit is indeed a stepper and much more work has been done on controlling it despite the fact that it is a 4 wire unit. Again this reflects the preferences of the developers for GM products, nothing more. As a result, there are ready made housings available for it which you can plumb into your intake. Personally I think the ones I've seen are a bit clunky and it should be just about as easy to make your own for a specific engine and get something much nicer but it's good to have that especially if you don't have the tools to make one. So far as I know they work just fine. I also seem to recall that Jeep used a housing that is readily adapted to other engines. For a big block you will indeed need more air and I wouldn't settle for lines less than 1/2" ID, keep them as short as possible, and keep restrictions to a minimum.

Jim