Nitrous

[Buick Powered]

I've recently rebuilt my '71 small block buick (350). I've put forged pistons in (10:1). I'm curious if anyone has any experiance with how much N20 is safe on these blocks. I really dont want to invest in another rebuild any time soon!

James

[bobc455]

I've never heard of anyone putting nitrous on a 350.

They are fairly robust motors, but I can't give a good assessment because I've never tried it.

Honestly, I would not exceed a 125HP boost, even with forged pistons. And that assumes you do your fuel system right and back the timing off appropriately. If you go to 150HP, I would recommend using race fuel.

Then you should learn how to read spark plugs, and make sure that you aren't lean.

Do all that, and you'll love to learn nitrous! It's a kick.

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

[David V]

James,

I have a 350 like yours;

.30 over forged pistons 10.5-1
later model polished rods
ported heads
TA intake
800cfm qjet
Poston headers
GS118 cam
Puts out 376hp .. 391tq

Planning on a 100 to 175 shot of juice

I'll let you know asap after I start the tuning ...

David

[Buick Powered]

David V said:James,

I have a 350 like yours;

.30 over forged pistons 10.5-1
later model polished rods
ported heads
TA intake
800cfm qjet
Poston headers
GS118 cam
Puts out 376hp .. 391tq

Planning on a 100 to 175 shot of juice

I'll let you know asap after I start the tuning ...

David

Nice motor David, I guess your installing a electric fuel pump, and bypassing the mechanical one? I'd be interested in how it goes for you. I'm about a month away from getting the spray, I need to get the new trans in the car first though.

[David V]

Was planning on running an elec. pump in back pushing through the mechanical up front ... DO you know something about the mechanical pump I should avoid?

Thanks, David

[bobc455]

Just my thought on this- because the mechanical pump pumps in "pulses", I didn't like the idea of letting it supply my system. That will work fine for a carb because it has a bowl, but I'd be worried that I would go rich-lean-rich-lean-rich-lean when injecting from the mechanical pump.

(I also wanted a very big shot, requiring more fuel than the mech. pump could supply)

-Bob Cunningham

[buick462x2]

run 150 shot on my old 355 with 10.50 to 1 compression pistons & .040 off the heads if i could have gottin good traction i might have seen 12.00 instead of 13.01@103.98 in the 1/4 mile with a 1972 buick with all interior in
peter

[Buick Powered]

bobc455 said:Just my thought on this- because the mechanical pump pumps in "pulses", I didn't like the idea of letting it supply my system. That will work fine for a carb because it has a bowl, but I'd be worried that I would go rich-lean-rich-lean-rich-lean when injecting from the mechanical pump.

(I also wanted a very big shot, requiring more fuel than the mech. pump could supply)

-Bob Cunningham

Those were my thoughts exactly. Although I dont really want anything about 100 shot. I'd rather be on the safe side, thats all.

[GSXMEN]

James,

I know there are a couple of guys on the board that have sprayed their 350's pretty good! Suprised they haven't chimed in yet.:Dou:

You could probably run a little more nitrous if you're using a progressive controller such as Jacob's Electronics Nitrous Mastermind. Bringing the nitrous in slowly should be 'easier' on parts than an 'all at once' hit!:TU: The Jacob's unit also has a proper type of rev limiter in it - cuts out the nitrous before it starts cutting out cylinders!! That way you don't get excess nitrous filling in a cylinder that isn't firing. BAD things would happen otherwise!!

I think these 350 blocks are stronger than many of us realize!

*Did you use new rod bolts when you rebuilt your engine?

Just make sure that your ignition system and fuel system is 'bulletproof'! If you get heavy detonation on the bottle - you may be a new member of the 'drive over the crank' club!:eek2:

[buick462x2]

stock everything but cam, piston,timing chain, intake, exhaust,so on so on

peter seagraves

[Buicks4Speed]

Hmmmmmm.....
Make sure to run a fuel regulator at least on the nitrous side

They don't recommend spraying over 150 hp on a dual plane intakes due to fuel distribution problem unless you want to put a sportsman Fogger adjustable from 100-300.

Always run a fuel safety cutoff switch.

Since your starting out on almost the smallest nitrous shot there is, hit it all at once as soon as the light turns green or your wasting you time. Your car wont turn into some ungodly monster on the 125 shot it will just feel nice and strong.

Make sure to do a "system Check" before you actually try the nitrous on a running motor. A "bad" fuel solenoid is a bad thing to find on a running motor.


FLYIN' oN tHE JUICE!!!:stmad: :stmad: :stmad:

[Buick Powered]

Thanks for all the tips. I think I'm going to do my HEI conversion before I move to the Jucie. As the motor approaches 6k I feel a little missfire. From all the things I've read, missfiring (or knocking) on the juice is a bad thing. ;)

Well my car is off to Level Ten this weekend for a tranny rebuild and new converter. Wish me luck.

James

[Buicks4Speed]

I used a MSD HEI module in my first nitrous setup with no problems.:TU:

[buick462x2]

i use a MSD 6AL on the 355 with 6200 rev limiter peter seagraves

[sbbuick]

I ran through a few bottles on a 125HP Plate kit.
The engine was a stock bottom end 100K mile 1968 350" engine in excellent shape. You guys are right about the ignition, because points just wouldn't fire it. With an HEI, watch out!
Lots of fun. I had an AC mechanical fuel pump and Sunoco Ultra 94 octane. Trigger switch on the carb. Q jet carb and plate.

No problems at all, exept when I still had points and backfired through the carb and warped my air cleaner lid!

[Buick_350X]

I think a 350 could take a 150 shot easy. ricers annd other small engines run fine on 100shot.

I think the need for stronger parts come in when your a bad tuner, hehehe it much easier on a FI engine than a carb but still effective.

Id through a 150 shot on my wagon without fear. now on my 2.8v6 I would not run more than 100 shot. I know a guy with a 100 shot on a 3.4v6 and has run it for 3-4 years.

Anyone seen much about running NOS and propane injetion???

Seen on trucks that added 245Hp by using both in a dodge. All they said was make sure your tranny can handle the power.

I guess popane is like NOS but real safe and no worries about detenation.

[GSmycarsfast]

A buick engine with Nitrous??? now ive herd them all. I would put a blower on a buick but nitrous....nah Whats the point a buick engine doesnt need any nitrous. Stick to all throtle no bottle. Besides like I always say bottles are for baby's. If you really want more power why dont you just rebuild a 455? Me personally Im not a fan of nitrous unless my car was purely a dragster.

But what do I know?

[bobc455]

Adam H.,

Nitrous is a nice option for those of us who drive our Buicks daily.

It's certainly possible to make the HP levels I do without nitrous, but I get 13 - 14 mpg daily, and 18 mpg on the highway. That's just too much to ask of a 750HP NA motor.

If your Buick is pretty much driven for race only, or on weekends / cruising, then you have more flexibility on how you make your HP (open headers, race fuel, Stage III heads, .650" cam, whatever). But I still think that Nitrous is a nice option for race cars, too...

Nitrous is definately very rare in the Buick community, and frequently shunned, but if we all did things the same way that would be quite boring...

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

[G-Body DAVE]

AMEN
Brother N2O user

[quickstage1]

Nitrous is awesome! My dad runs a 100 shot on his '64 Riviera. It has a 425 with 2-4bls, 4000 s/p converter and a ford 9" rear with Detroit locker and 4.10's. I took this picture a few years ago but it is lifting the front tires off of the ground about 4". This is a full weight car and even has the front sway bar on it. If you are going to run NOS make sure you run a dedicated fuel system for it. He uses 2 pickups out of the tank with 2 electric pumps and 2 regulators. One supplys fuel to the motor and one to the NOS plates when it is armed. He has ran it like this for a few years with no problems. In this pass it ran 12.8 with a 1.66 short time!
Ken

[FlaBoy]

Matt,

From what I understand, propane and nitrous work together real well. The way I have always udnerstood nitrous to work (and someone correct me please if I'm wrong) was that under compression and combustion, the nitrogen and oxygen separate, and adds more oxygen into the combustion process (aka chemical supercharging), which is why you also need to add mroe fuel for a nitous shot (to keep the Air/Fuel emulsion ratio near the ideal stoichiometric ratio). also, the nitrogen (from what an old timer at my local race shop says) helps stabilize the fuel air charge and promote more even combustion. The wonderful thing about propane injection is that it adds mroe fuel to the mix... so if you combine the two, you add mroe fuel, AND more oxygen (in the form of nitrous) then you have a nice double-whammy punch going on... I would think you could get away with a combo nitrous/proane injection setup with less fuel system mods than on a nitrous only deal. Also, i would think deisels would take very kindly to nitrous.... you dont really have to worry about detonation so much on them. Hmmm...... this has me thinking.... dualie turbo desiel truck... nitrous... proane.... They already have bullet proof trannies, and with dualie tires, theres be no need to run super wide wheel-well scraping slicks.... I bet you could make some serious fast power stroke deisels. But as my dad (a big fan of the Cummins deisels) used to say "I'd rather be Cummin than Strokin"

[mygrain]

Ive been thinking alot about nitrous on my BB Regal Im going to build. I was thinking about usung the stock gas tank and a stage one fuel pump, and then put a fuel cell in the trunk filled with C16 and an electric inline pump for the nitrous. I realize it would be a little extra weight, but its behind the rear axels, so it cant hurt me that much.
________
Herbal vaporizers (http://johan-luis.tumblr.com/)

[b4551971]

I picked up a plate from a friend its the NOS powershot plate I'm looking for what jet sizes to use. also what kind of timing retard are you guys running I've heard anywhere from 1 to 4 degrees per 25hp of nitrous its a 430 with a cam,manifold and headers

thanx

[G-Body DAVE]

Loaded for Nitrous.

[miniv8]

ive run through several bottles of nitrous,up to 2 bottles per event and i generally back timing 2° per 50 shot of nitrous.
be sure to check sparkplugs when fiddling with nitro and start
rich on the fuel side, then gradually lean out, checking the plugs
after a full throttle run.


this is where i dump my nitrous http://www.4x4iceland.com/tt/pictures.htm

[GSmycarsfast]

bob, if your looking for hp and economy fuel injection will help you out there, nitrous doesnt help your mpg but wont hurt it either. I agree with you on the money part of things FI is kind of pricey unless you make your own setup, But i would take a few other routes hold off and save a few more dollars and go with FI if you have a daily driver besides Nitrous can be dangerous. You said you have 750hp is that with or without Nitrous?

[bobc455]

Adam-

Fuel injection isn't gonna buy you much HP compared to a good carb. It will give you more efficiency under other conditions, however, meaning that you can have the equivalent of a consertively tuned 2-bbl carb and the HP of a dominator.

I didn't exactly say that I *had* 750HP, I was trying to describe the power output of a "high horsepower motor". I've dynoed my car, and when I correct for drivetrain losses I am about 460HP at the flywheel. I have a nitrous system capable of adding another 450HP, but in reality I will probably never use it to that potential. I might get to the 750HP level someday, depends on how I feel when cranking up the jetting leve. Most of the time on the juice I'm adding about 175HP, so in theory that's about 625HP (on paper, I'm not gonna claim that without going on a dyno).

My point is, though, that even for a 625HP motor, you'd have a hard time making it streetable. And when I say streetable, I mean daily driven. I drive my car everywhere- I drive to Cecil County, BG, whatever- the car is very polite and comfortable to drive. And when I get to the track, I can just let her rip!

Nitrous can be dangerous if not handled properly. I cracked a cylinder wall in '97, and broke two pistons in '01. But in both cases, it was because of my own stupidty and not because of the nitrous- I didn't handle with care. If you drive a Grand National into the 9's, would you use a stock fuel pump? Of course not, that would be as stupid as what I did. I like to think of it like handling a stick of dynamite or even a handgun- if handled properly, they each can serve a purpose. But if you are stupid (like I was), yes they can cause problems.

If you want to keep the small cam route for drivability and milage, but still go for big HP, you will probably have to boost- however both superchargers and turbochargers have some parasitic drag. In the case of the GNs, this is such an efficient motor to begin with that a bit of parasitic HP loss for a turbo is not important. But where most big blocks are happy with 10-12 MPG, adding some parasitic drag can put an even bigger dent in the old pocketbook. Over the past 10 years or so some great improvements have been made to superchargers so that they hardly affect gas mileage- I've seen Rich's photos of the supercharger installation and have been really impressed. I wonder if you could disconnect the belt and drive the car without the extra drag?

What about taking a new block, putting a cam like mine into it, then adding a 14PSI supercharger plus a 200HP shot of juice? At the track you could be over 1000 reliable HP, and drive home afterwards. How cool would that be! Of course good luck getting a transmission to hold together, but that's another topic...

I guess I'll wrap up my babbling that for now by just saying that for some of us, nitrous is a nice option. And BTW yes, sometimes I'll hit the highway with my nitrous bottle open, and I've never had any car even come close when we start to "get it on"... (frequently even the nitrous is unnecessary, however, unless I'm up against some super hot car like a Viper, Ferrari, etc.). If my car were not economical enough to drive everyday, I'd just sit in my other car thinking "if only I had my fast car, THEN I could beat you". To me, if a car isn't drivable, then you never get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

-Bob Cunningham

[GSmycarsfast]

I respect your points and opinions and im not knocking people that use nitrous. To each there own and yes im glad everyone doesn't have the same setups on there cars that would be boring, but me personally i wouldn't use a blower unless i was putting out like 1000 hp+ i only plan on using one 4 barrel on my engine. No tunnel rams no superchargers, nitrous, turbochargers or even 2 4's i plan to drive this car a lot and can't afford any kind of economy power at the moment. I agree with you on the new technology with the turbochargers and such there doing some pretty amazing stuff these days but since im getting off the topic when it comes down to it I dont want to have to use nitrous to win a race and just really dont need it for a car i will be driving a lot. When people say that they use there nitrous on the streets to me thats just pretty dumb. If i have nitrous on my car i would never use it on the streets i would only use it at the strip and it would be pretty much pointless to have it if this car is a daily driver, now if i had a car just for the strip and maybe an occasional cruise around the block i might use nitrous but still probably wouldn't. To me people that use nitrous on the street sound like those import street racers and those guys are dumb. 100+ shot of nitrous is a lot of power and that can be dangerous. Plus i dont need any speeding tickets and i really dont want to hurt anyone else on the street. The point is to go as fast as you can, not die trying. So to make a long opinion short i drive my car a lot on the street and dont see nitrous for it in the future, but i understand and respect your opinions and discussing different aspects on cars is part of being a car enthusiast in my book.