Ok We weighed my pig

[RACEBUICKS]

:rant: OK now I know the numbers on my car.

WIth a full tank of fuel and driver and the jump box on the right side next to the real battery.

Left front 1106.8
Right frt 1034.6
right rear 962.3
left rear 1032.5

I was going out to add a second battery in the trunk and see what that does for the numbers. So at this time can anyone tell me whats the matter with the car?? Just looking for someone who knows not guess's please.

I will work on moving around some weight too but I still really have no idea yet what it all means.

[RACEBUICKS]

ok now with an extra battery in the trunk the numbers are.....

Left frt 1098.6
right frt 1040.8
rh rear 978.8
lft rear 1042.8

[RACEBUICKS]

Oh yea I can send anyone that wants it a video of my last run this year. I smoked a rustang out of the gates but got beat at the end as my 1030 wouldnt hold up to a 969

[carcrazy455]

Thats not a PIG it's a HOG :eek2:

Where did all the extra weight come from? :confused:


Mike
carcrazy455@yahoo.com

[RACEBUICKS]

Same car I have ran for 3 years no additional weight but the battery of 40 lbs...

[Roberta]

MG, looks like you should add a POS in the RR, to get even, I want to do the same with my car, and other stuff, etc. First I got to get in on the scales! :laugh: :bglasses:

[D-Con]

you need more spring preload in the LF and/or RR or else less in the RF and LR unless you have a anti-roll bar that you can adjust it out with.

You want the RR to push down more on the pavement (ie support more of the car's weight) that the LR for sure.

What do you have for springs?

To get a better feel for what you are doing, stick a piece of 2x4 under the LF tire and see how it changes your scale readings. Then do the same for the RR or do both at the same time.

[Jeff Kitchen]

Yeah, I agree with Adam. Your cross weights are messed up. Your front end looks alright (left side heavier), but your rear is backwards. A properly set-up chassis will "cross", meaning that if the LF is heavy, so is the RR. In a drag car, especially A-bodies, you want the LF-RR to be heavier than the RF-LR. You might have a bent frame. You CAN adjust it out with a sway-bar, but you really shouldn't. A sway-bar should be neutral at ride height. Get the springs/alignment/frame checked first, then add the sway-bar, then maybe add a little pre-load to the sway-bar if necessary to make it launch straighter.

Have fun.

[alan]

And lose some weight! :Smarty:

[RACEBUICKS]

What if my springs were shot?? I am positive they are so if they were junk would this be still my problem??

[GS Kubisch]

Thats not a PIG it's a HOG :eek2:

Where did all the extra weight come from? :confused:


Mike
carcrazy455@yahoo.com

4100+........I really think the rollcage is solid round bar rather than tubing. :laugh:

[RACEBUICKS]

As I suspected here I will end up with more crap than help. I have no idea why my car is heavy. I have a swiss cheese frt bumper brackets with a plastic front bumper. I have a glass hood. I have an alunimum radiator. I have the battery in the trunk. I have scraped all the sound deadnin from the floors. I have removed the vinal top. What else can I do? (without butchering a real BBB 4 speed car)

[GS Kubisch]

I've read where people,Myself included,Have taken the time to help you.
Be it here,Or at BG where I know Bobb M. and Jeff H. helped (Tires).
I know BUICKS4SPEED made some nice suggestions for weight loss a while back.
My car is 600LBS :shock: lighter and no less complete......Heck,I've even still got my chrome/steel frt bumper......

Have you gotten rid of the FAT radials on the frt?
Lightweight brakes?
Chromoly cage?
Lightweight seats?
Heater removal?
Gut an extra set of doors?
Remove qtr window mech,'s?
Lightweight trans x-member?

All these items can be returned to stock.......
Other than the cage which you already have.
A common mistake when adding a cage that most people make is poor planning,They hit the 11's or so and just ''slap'' in a 6-point rollbar and then go faster and add a full cage because they "have to".....What you end up doing is short-cutting and taking away from the car.
I think a nicely done cage can add to a car GS or not depending on what the car is built for.

But.....Don't make it like "I've done this myself" or "Nobody will help me" because alot of people have tried/offered,Once again myself included,Even off forum,about 3 years ago I ordered one of your aluminum shifter handle pieces I included a note asking about you combo so to compare notes and you never responded,It was before you met me so maybe that's why?

Hoefully you see that 9 second pass,But until you get rid of about 250lbs or add power I think the car is about where it should be.

I just hope you "Park the car" again......That's what I remember before the trans rebuild.
Now we're back to "Getting that 9"?
Good,Then DO IT......DO IT........ :Smarty:

A little ''tough love'' from Ohio :TU:

[71GS455]

OK, consider this a question of 4-scale ignorance.

Is there a possibility that these different weights include some crossover from the other 3 corners?

...kind of a "the sum of the parts total more than the whole" sort of thing?

Maybe there's a couple hundred extra "total" pounds based on adding all the individual totals?

[Jim Rodgers]

Mike,

No need to have a chip on your shoulder. If people didnt give a crap about your problem they wouldnt post help. No need for you to get pissed about it, but hey, I dont believe your car weighs 4100 either. But.............just for the sake of arguement, lets say it does, soooooooooooo..............

Against your opinion, EVERYONE here does not know your car, so work with me here if you would please. First, your biggest problem is not suspension, its weight. Why does the car weigh 4100? Could it be possible that your car came from GM with a convertible frame?? Have you checked?? Stranger things have happened and that could account for the additional puffiness. That extra weight is coming from somewhere, it isnt just a miracle that your 70 GS is the heaviest known to mankind....FIND IT. Saying you dont know aint gonna work, you HAVE TO KNOW. Were the above weights with you in the car? If not then throw them out the window because the car doesnt drive itself down the track. By the way, gas weighs about 7 lbs per gallon, NEVER run or weigh the car with a full tank, unless your "tank" is a 3 gallon fuel cell. If you have a stock tank then by my estimate, you had at least 119 pounds of unneeded weight in the car when you weighed it. And forget the extra battery in the trunk, you dont need it and it will slow you down. Nothing extra should be in the car or in the trunk when you weigh the car or race the car. No spare tire, jack, tools, nothing.

Second, once you have FULLY addressed the weight issue, lets move to the front suspension. Without the front suspension setup correctly, the rear suspension is simply defining VOLUME, it has mass and it takes up space. Nothing more. So lets make sure everything is copasetic up front first.

Do you still have the Stock front Control arms and bushings?? If not then what do you have up front? Is the front suspension loose and well greased so up and down travel effort is non existant? Jack the front of the car up and spin the front tires, are the brakes nice and loose??

Front shocks, what do you have?? Are they race shocks set loose? Say 10/90? How about front springs?? Nice and spongy??

Ok, now the rear suspension. EXACTLY what do you have now? TIRES???? I think I remember you installed the HR antiroll? What upper and lower control arms do you have? What springs are in the rear now? Do you have no hop bars? Do you run air bags and if so how much pressure? What shocks do you have in the rear now?

If you will take the time to answer ALL of the above questions I think you can get enough feedback here that, if you listen to it and most importantly act upon it, you can get the thing straightened out and run your number. I think everyone here just wants to help, not be chastised for their comments. Especially me, so if you dont like my post dont comment, just delete it, and I will mind my own business. I'm just trying to help get to the bottom of this because YOU ASKED FOR HELP. Frankly, I have seen pics of your car carrying the front tires with your current combo, and when its doing that its hooking, not spinning down the track. The back of the car is squatted down, the front is in the air and its on the way out. It looks to me like the suspension is working in the photos I have seen of your car.

LASTLY, and be honest, what 60' is your best with THIS combo?? I see a 10.18 is your best e.t., what does the car typically run, 10.30's ??? And what 60 foots does it normally run at its normal e.t.??

Ok, for a recap and please answer all:

WHY does the car weigh 4100? You have to know!! Do some investigating and find out.
List in detail all front suspension pieces on your car now and how they are set up. Is the front alignment correct?
List in detail all rear suspension pieces on the car now and how they are set up.
List rear tire selection on the car now and how old are they? Still the throw aways from Jeff Hart??
Are the brakes front and rear nice and loose?
Give us a rundown of your 5 best passes with the current combo and the corresponding 60', 1/8th and 1/4 et and mph.
What size is the carb? What squirters are in the carb? Does the carb have rear jet extensions?
Do you have a Stage 2 hood and air pan? If not why, it will go faster, that 535 has to breathe and it CANNOT do that under a 'glass Stage 1 hood!!
What converter is in the car, who made it and what are its numbers? Does the trans fluid smell burnt?
Spark plugs, what kind and how often do you change them?

You may think some of these questions are stupid, but until you know the answer to them all then you MAY be shooting at a moving target.

Right Gary?

[BUICK528]

Mike, did you use 4 scales to weigh the car, or 1 scale and move it around to each position, and then tally the weights???? something is seriously wrong with the calculations. My Wildcat convertible weighs less than your car does. My GS weighed 3815 w/ driver, 1/2 fuel, with absolutely zero body/chassis lightening or glass components. My car went 9.90 @135.95 with your engine.

JH :bglasses:

[D-Con]

Mike, something better than getting advice from all of us. You can get one or 2 books to read and make your own decisions. Doorslammers: the chassis book from S&W racecars, and the other one that I haven't read is from Jerry Bickel racecars.

It's not rocket science, but does take alot more thought than what you can get over a bulletin board very easily.

[buickdav]

[QUOTE=BUICK528]Mike, did you use 4 scales to weigh the car,???? QUOTE]

Jim,

Yes he did I was on the phone with him yesterday while they were doing this. And had my Morgan book open figuring %'s for him(what a scratch pad mess of papers I have here now,lol).

Hopefully we will get something figured out this time........INSTEAD of everyone telling Mike his car is heavy. Yes its heavy, WE ALL KNOW THIS. But I would like to add if I may, I have a feeling that once ANY 9 shows up with this car, we'll get to see a real 4 spd and a stg. 1 back in it. Thus the effort to try and leave as much as possible................

[Buicks4Speed]

Ok, dealing with this in the order of importance ..... :laugh:

Bolt-on weight, no Butchering........

CM steering rods with spherical rod ends connected to billet alum arms off the spindles

Aluminum master cylinder w/ plastic tank

If you have a fiberglass fnt bumper than go with aluminum brackets

Definitely go with a set of tubular TRZ type front upper and lower control arms and wilwood brakes or Aerospace.

Aluminum manual steering box

Race bucket seats worth almost 100 lbs. over stock buckets.

Get rid of the heater box, how much driving do you do in the winter anyways.

CM cage but that is a hard change.

Remove the front sway bar if its still there.

Have a CM transmission cross member built. Or swiss cheese an extra one laying around.

Run a pin on hood and ditch the hood hinges. - It does require two people anytime the hood needs to come off, but how many times are you alone with the car? Install the hood pins in the hood bumper stop locations. No new holes.

You can gut a set of skylark doors as Gary said I think when I cut out my door braces they were right around 20lbs for both.

Fiberglass rear deck lid.

Replace the front radials with drag tires.

These are all bolt-ons that don't alter the interior or exterier appearance. Also, this means they can be unbolted and put on another Skylark if a race car is in the future.


On the weight..... I only get 145lbs difference from left to right which I can't see that as a problem considering its with the driver and compared to your total weight. You could use a little preload in the rear sway bar but overall I think it looks ok. Add about 1/2" -1" preload to the right rear sway bar to even the weight in the rear. Or you can take 1/2 -1" away from the left side. Either way it works out the same. I know this will add weight to the front left but it will also add more stored energy to the spring if it alters the pre-adjustment height. What was the measured height at all 4 corners while weighing? With only a 145 total, I don't know that you would have seen much if any.

I know your tired of hearing guys bother you about your cars weight but it is an issue at 4100+ lbs. Even if your ok with it, its extra abuse and wear-n-tear on your driveline and can be considered more of a safety issue the faster you go. THe heavier you are the harder it is to correct going down the track especially when you consider how unstable the sidewalls are on slicks. THe more weight you have, the more dangerous it makes it.

On the front springs, If you don't have to run spacers and the ride height is ok, I wouldn't say there shot. BUT if there are stock springs, they don't have the "stored energy" or push as a drag spring would. Drag springs give more lifting force to full extension whereas stock springs give up after a couple inches.

[RACEBUICKS]

Mike,

No need to have a chip on your shoulder. ,

EVERYONE here does not know your car, so work with me here if you would please.

Could it be possible that your car came from GM with a convertible frame?? Have you checked??


Do you still have the Stock front Control arms and bushings?? If not then what do you have up front?

Front shocks, what do you have?? Are they race shocks set loose? Say 10/90? How about front springs?? Nice and spongy??

Ok, now the rear suspension. EXACTLY what do you have now? TIRES???? I think I remember you installed the HR antiroll? What upper and lower control arms do you have?

What springs are in the rear now? Do you have no hop bars? Do you run air bags and if so how much pressure? What shocks do you have in the rear now?



LASTLY, and be honest, what 60' is your best with THIS combo?? I see a 10.18 is your best e.t., what does the car typically run, 10.30's ??? And what 60 foots does it normally run at its normal e.t.??

Ok, for a recap and please answer all:

WHY does the car weigh 4100? You have to know!! Do some investigating and find out.
List in detail all front suspension pieces on your car now and how they are set up. Is the front alignment correct?
List in detail all rear suspension pieces on the car now and how they are set up.
List rear tire selection on the car now and how old are they? Still the throw aways from Jeff Hart??
Are the brakes front and rear nice and loose?
Give us a rundown of your 5 best passes with the current combo and the corresponding 60', 1/8th and 1/4 et and mph.
What size is the carb? What squirters are in the carb? Does the carb have rear jet extensions?
Do you have a Stage 2 hood and air pan? If not why, it will go faster, that 535 has to breathe and it CANNOT do that under a 'glass Stage 1 hood!!
What converter is in the car, who made it and what are its numbers? Does the trans fluid smell burnt?
Spark plugs, what kind and how often do you change them?

You may think some of these questions are stupid, but until you know the answer to them all then you MAY be shooting at a moving target.

Right Gary?

OK here it is I am looking for assistance. I KNOW its heavy I still dont beleive the scales were totally accurate since I weighed the car at BG for Garys sake and it was 3990 with a full tank after 1 run me in it. With that in mind the numbers still show a problem. I also have installed plastic race seats since it was weighed at BG
attempt to answer the questions here as best as I can. And since noone really does know my car maybe it will help get me a 9. That is the goal and as soon as I accomplish that I WILL be in the market to buy a real RACE CAR. That has been the goal since the beginning, it hasnt changed. As soon as I get it the new goal is tube/back half car and going for the 8s.

1 Could it be possible that your car came from GM with a convertible frame?? Have you checked?? NO Its a HT frame.

2 Do you still have the Stock front Control arms and bushings?? If not then what do you have up front? Yes stock front end with all new bushings a couple years ago. I have left them loose and I have 90/10s and finned alunimum drums. The springs were the Moroso ST frts but they sagged so bad when I put the 535 in I had to replace them (with stock springs) When I did the car went faster in the 60 foots 1.58s to the low 1.50s. I have had a best of 1.46 here at Heartland Park Topeka But the et was a 10.20 @134
I have done an alignment with the front of the car lifted up as if it was traveling down the track.

3 Ok, now the rear suspension. EXACTLY what do you have now? TIRES???? I think I remember you installed the HR antiroll? What upper and lower control arms do you have?

What springs are in the rear now? Do you have no hop bars? Do you run air bags and if so how much pressure? What shocks do you have in the rear now?
This will take awhile here: I have Global west tubular lowers and BMR upper adjustables, HR antiroll bar, adjustable rear shocks set in a nuetral setting atr this time (noone has ever helped figure out wether to be loose or tight there) I have air bags but once the HR bar was installed it was recommended no air. The tires are MT ET Drags 29.5X11. They are 11 passes old. I set the upper control arms to the 4 negitive for the pinion angle. I have not rechecked it since, as it shouldnt have changed. But I can easily enough. The brakes are all new parts and yes I have them loose. I dont take brakes lightly (never have)

4 Give us a rundown of your 5 best passes with the current combo and the corresponding 60', 1/8th and 1/4 et and mph. All I could find was one time slip fast so here it is. I ran this llast saturday
60.........1.506
330.......4.248
1/8th....6.574
MPH ....105.33
1000.....8.592
1/4.......10.309
mph....132.00

As for the carb I have only jetted it one time up as the guy who was helping me is a VERY good source of info. Gary STinnett who builds a lot of the Super Comp racers carbs is my source. He also ran the dyno on my engine and said that my carb has excellent numbers. That was also agreed to by another guy at the rear wheel dyno I went too.

5 Do you have a Stage 2 hood and air pan? If not why, it will go faster, that 535 has to breathe and it CANNOT do that under a 'glass Stage 1 hood!!
What converter is in the car, who made it and what are its numbers? Does the trans fluid smell burnt?
Spark plugs, what kind and how often do you change them?
No I have a stock glass bolt on hood with the back of it jacked up to keep the carb from sucking it down. The converter is an ATI I can foot brake it to about 3200 at the start. I have tried launching at idle all the way thru as hard as it can hold it. The trans nis brand new with straight cut gears and new fluid. Spark plugs,............ I change them every race.

I have a vac pump on it too. I have small pully and the alt runs on the crank only. The water pump is electric. I have a 3.5 inch complete exhaust from front to rear with the magnaflo SS race mufflers and a DR GAS X pipe. I took out the low gear set this year as I spilt them in half. I have a 12 bolt with a 410 gear and a spool. TA Girdle on the cover and c clip eleiminators. ANything else needed to know?

OK I have seen a 65 Impala run 9.50s with the same wheels and tires I have here locally. So I know this can be done. I still need a veiwpoint on the springs for the rear, what do I need to buy? I have 25 year old stock ones now. Jim R. If you want to call me and we can hash this out alittle email me for my number. I tried to call your number earlier. :Comp:

Here is the set up for weighing I used

[Jim Rodgers]

Well, at least my comments got your attention. Maybe I was a little smart, but I wanted to be sure if everyone takes the time to post help here that it doesnt just go in one ear and out the other. Shoot me. Your original unedited post for help was pretty direct and to the point, kinda of a dont give me any crappy opinions unless you can fix my car kind of attitude. I know you are frustrated, I have traction issues myself right now, but they can be solved. So bear with us.

I will pm you my number if we need to talk. I will be out for a while this evening, but call later if you want.

I need time to ingest your post on your combination. Some of the answers are there, we just have to find them. I may not have all your answers cause I certainly aint a guru by any means, but I will help and I'm sure others will as well. I dont think this will be a 1 step fix all though. And it sounds like there may be some confusion on the TRUE weight of the car in race trim. What is the wieght of the car with minimal fuel, empty trunk, 1 battery, and nothing extra in the driver compartment other than you? I say around 3800 TOPS. Or it should be. If not, then you NEED to find the extra tonnage because something is amiss.

And for the glass hood, put a stage 2 hood on the car even if you have to borrow it. If you had to raise the hood to keep it from being sucked thru your 535 then another inch or so aint gonna help. the motor is starving for air. As for the other stuff, I need to read it a couple times to get it together in my head, which I will do.

Also, produce some more timeslip info if you can, we need to get some averages on performance, not just one shot.

P.S. And I will try much more diligently to keep my smart ass comments to myself. K?

[Jim Rodgers]

Oh, and send me that video if you will.

[RACEBUICKS]

I was referin to the other smart ass comments. I didnt take your post any other way than direct questions.
I am frustrated, everytime the air is good the track isnt. Then the track is awesome and I run at 3500 feet of air or higher. It seems this car doesnt want to play right. I know it can be done, but I have exhausted my knowledge. (Alll 5 minutes worth) I just had to pull the front tire off my car and I weighed itr for grins. 38.5 pounds. It wasnt even 1/2 the weight of the stock wheels I had setting nearby.

Let me take this time to say one more thing, I am not mad at anyone. I am disappointed with my car, I have tried to make it go I cant. I have taken a whole lot of crap over it too. I am more tired of that than anything else. I am waiting on a friend to call me back to see if this chassis guy can help also. My thinking is to get him to the car or the car to him and see what it does and maybe he can help. I dont know anymore.....

[Buick_350X]

is that a bathroom scale your using??? Do they go up or red accurate near 1000lbs??

[ricknmel67]

is that a bathroom scale your using??? Do they go up or red accurate near 1000lbs??

That yellow thing is a "fulcrum" of sorts, which reduces the amount of weight on the scale. Looks like maybe a 4:1 ratio?
So if the scale reads 250 lbs, that corner of the car really weighs 1000 lbs.
It's not the most accurate way of weighing a car, but it'll get you close. Maybe thats where most of the "extra" weight is coming from.
:Do No:

[badbuik]

I am for sure , not an expert, but reading what you have in the rear suspension has me wondering. From all I've heard, that HR "bar" is a great piece, but you left all the other components on the car that the HR bar was to replace, when you installed it. Why do you still have adj. upper control arms? And the air bag? Just seems that you could put the stock control arms back on and save some weight, alittle, but at least the car is getting lighter. I also think the weight is wrong, my friends '71 GS455 with nothing removed, stock interior and roll cage weighs 4100lbs. with an iron headed 462 ci. What rims are on the car, my stock 15in ralleys were 35lbs each, switching to skinny aluminums cut that in half, the pair weigh 30 lbs. Good luck, keep your head up, and remember, "it's just a car..." I'll be watching this thread, I'll probably learn something.
Gary G.

[RACEBUICKS]

I have a video of the last pass in my car if anyone wants to host it I can email it to you so you can post a link here for all to see. Even if the track was bad the car is doing some weird things.
'
I run centerline drag lights for wheels

[alan]

I'll be watching this thread, I'll probably learn something.

Me too! I'm working on a car that will be heavy. It will have the HRparts upper and lower rear arms and probably the anti roll bar. I'm figuring on using MOROSO front springs and 70/30 front shocks, probably 50/50 shocks in the rear. Also 10 by 29 slicks out back (bigger if they fit)

The Green car was rather easy, big fat tires in the rear with ladder bars, and all I had to do was hang on! This next one may be interesting.

[BUICK528]

I will continue on being a smart a$$ :grin: :grin:

the scoop w/pan is worth 1.5 tenth and 1.5 mph GUARANTEED, without the SEALED pan, the scoop is worthless.... I still have my pan and carb base, but you declined buying them before. I told you to use the carb I recommended, and you didn't do that either, the bleeds were set up for a pressurized sccop/pan. I told you about the Hoosier radial slicks, and to use EXACTLY 19# of air cold, how to do the burnouts with them (special routine) and you didn't do that either...heavy cars and flimsy sidewalls are a non-adjustable situation.

The ATI convertor is holding you back another tenth, maybe more... it's too loose, get an A1 like I told you to do 3 times already, and it's good for another 1.5 and 1.5 mph, minimum of a tenth GUARANTEED. NEVER leave the line/stage at more than 1600-1700 rpm... any more than that and your overloading the suspension free travel, putting the suspension in a bind, and it'll blow the tires away every time. Your front tire/rim weight is too heavy. I told you to set the shocks staggered like Jim Turner did at all 4 corners. It worked for me, and everybody else that did it. What's the purpose of adjustable shocks just to leave them all nuetral??

I don't know any SERIOUS racers that use the scales like your picture shows. You need dead weight scales, not leveraged weight. Leveraged weight scaling is for figuring out trailer tongue weights, and it will always show higher than accurate numbers. You need chassis scales like the roundy boys and pro drag racer's use. My brother has a set of good scales, cause we used to weigh our Camaro all the time, depending if we ran pro tree or bracket tree, and we had to change the weight bias for either setup.

I told you all this 2 years ago at BG, and all you did was roll your eyes at me.

I think JR is pretty accurate on the weight guess. He hit it within 15# of what my car and 99% of the rest of our cars are. I know the GSE guys run better numbers, same weight, go straighter, and with less HP than you have on tap.

Simple as that. Start listening Mike, and you'll get there. If you don't, you won't. If your not going to listen, then just quit asking for opinions. Quit chewing on everybody, and just do what experienced people have been doing already, and telling you to do, for years.

JH :3gears:

[RACEBUICKS]

You told me that the carb I had on the motor was flawless and not to f*** with it as I remember.

The scales I have possession of are from a round and round friend of mine, they seem to work for those guys. Serious racers also spend 3 times as much on the car as I have too. They also have a RACE car not a street car. And some day real soon I will also have a RACE car.

Shocks..... I have no idea how to "stagger " the shocks. NOONE has ever explained it. Saying it to someone and then walking away is differnt then taking the time to explain it. If I rolled my eyes at you it was probably cause you made no sense and I had no idea what you were talking about. If I had your money I would have someone here already and my car would go 9s.

I am frustrated at all the critisism. I have been listening. I have done almost everything everyone has agreed would help. Here is the list

1 Try Slicks not street tires ................... Thank you Jeff Hart for that one
2 HR Bar .....................Thank you all who replied here
3 Get the car scaled ...................... Bobb Mackley BG 03 (yes Im a little slow here)
4 How can I get the motor to quit sucking the pan dry...........Mike @ TA and ERic Ruge (engine rebuilder)
5 what kind of springs on the rear of the car should I buy??? ............... oh yea that one hasnt been addressed yet so I havent bought any. '
6 Still want to adress the tire thing more........about going to the Hooseirs

I am listening but the answers need to be clear. Lets talk instead of critisize. I think I have access to a hood and scoop I plan to take the challenge and see if its worth the 1.5 you say. I am guessing my cars currunt weight really at 3890 at this time I will weigh it soon also as a whole.

[evil16v]

I don't know any SERIOUS racers that use the scales like your picture shows. You need dead weight scales, not leveraged weight. Leveraged weight scaling is for figuring out trailer tongue weights, and it will always show higher than accurate numbers. You need chassis scales like the roundy boys and pro drag racer's use. My brother has a set of good scales, cause we used to weigh our Camaro all the time, depending if we ran pro tree or bracket tree, and we had to change the weight bias for either setup


maybe not. BUT... you can buy these from ads in the back of a few roundy round mags.

I bought these FROM a roundy round guy. He was getting out it. He said they are not perfect, but they tell you what you need to know.

The platforms are cupped for holding a tire. hard tell from my picture. the platforms are balanced on an axis underneath the platform. You can not
balance a trailer tongue with these. that would be very treaturous, as there would be nothing there to keep it from sliding off.

as for the total weight.... if the car was taken to an cerfied scale, the resultant reading could be divided by the total of the scale readings, resulting in a corrected multiplication factor (i.e. 4.0, 3.9 etc. instead of the 4.13 that i generally find to be near accurate).

the point here is to find distribution. he is missing a good 60lbs on the right rear. bad spring i think. the scientific way to prove this would be to swap the two springs and see if the wieght goes to the right. the springs are a pain in the a$$ to swapp so he would rather change to the recomended spring rate while he is at it.

[Buick_350X]

That yellow thing is a "fulcrum" of sorts, which reduces the amount of weight on the scale. Looks like maybe a 4:1 ratio?
So if the scale reads 250 lbs, that corner of the car really weighs 1000 lbs.
It's not the most accurate way of weighing a car, but it'll get you close. Maybe thats where most of the "extra" weight is coming from.
:Do No:


Could you measure it out or make up some direction how to build that so it works out right? Id like to do some weighing.

[Jim Rodgers]

Ok, Lets settle the REAR spring thing now. Find a STOCK set of rear springs from a GS or Skylark, preferably a GS, and put them in the car. Put them on the same sides they were in originally. Put the air bags back in with no air for now.

The stock springs are fine. Yours may have given up, its possible, but a GOOD set of stockers will get the job done.

[Jim Rodgers]

By the way, I'm still absorbing your combo post, what distributor are you running, and what springs are in it??

[RACEBUICKS]

The distributor is a stinger pick up with the timing all in at 1500-1700 I have an MSD 7AL2 and the timing was decided at the dyno as 36 on the nose made the best HP

[BUICK528]

You told me that the carb I had on the motor was flawless and not to f*** with it as I remember.
Mike, tell the truth here bud. You told me twice that you NEVER used or even installed the good carb, because you said the one from your old engine was fine, and *good enough*. You don't fine tune an engine/carb setup on a dyno. Dyno's dont go 135 mph. You also stated you didn't/wouldn't ever want to run the scoop, because everybody back your way wouldn't think it was a street car any more, and you couldn't race against the other *supposed* street cars in your area, with a scoop... those were your EXACT words.

I told you how to avoid the suck_the_pan_dry syndrome, and then you went right out, next pass, and did the exact OPPOSITE two procedures I told you to do to help you, both staging for traction, and after the finish line for the oil issue, and you almost hit the wall in the right lane at BG, remember that??...

I explained the shock stagger settings to you explicitly. And I told you to call/talk to Jim Turner, you didn't, and I told you to talk to all the GSE guys, specifically Gary Laughlin, Tom Rix, Perry Carlini, Oliver Colteryahn, Dave Benisek, Tom Haeffner and Bruce Kent, I don't think you talked to ANY of them, but I could be wrong. NONE of those cars are jacked up in the back like yours is/was, and they all run smaller tires than you. I do know you got some very good advice from both Jeff and Bobb, and GREAT advice from Gary Kubisch.. You didn't/never have, adhered to a thing that Gary told you, and I think Gary is a suspension opinion leader amongst ALL of us.

90/10 RF, 70/30 LF, 50/50 RR. 30/70 LR is the shock settings I used for *starters*, (pay close attention here) the explicit instructions come with the shocks, no matter what brand, did you read them? obviously not, if yours are still set neutral, after all this time..

I also told you to run 22# in the right air bag and 6# in the left airbag, and not below 12.5# of air in the MT or Phoenix/Firestone slicks. You only need 6# equal with your new rear sway bar deal. I also told you to rotate the rear tires from side to side every 6 passes, did you do that? You don't need to rotate the radials btw...

I told you to NOT do your burnout's in second gear, go right to third gear, then bring the rpm's up, using the high gear drum. Second gear burnouts specifically break sprags in a T400... how many sprags did you finally break?? In over 500 passes on my GS, I have NEVER broken a sprag...

I told you to buy the Moroso trick rear springs, which are different spring rates right to left. They are visually different right/left. You didn't do that, you said what you had were fine. The Moroso front springs are NOT really what they are advertised rated at, everybody seems to know that by now. You need the heaviest rated front spring from Moroso, I specifically gave you the part number. At one time the GSCA sold the staggered rear springs, that's where I bought mine. They were made by Detroit/Eaton spring if I remember correctly, from what Richard told me.

Why are you using roundy round leverage scale arms, and methods, for a straight line race car? What *I* would have done right then would be remove both rear springs and re-check the weight bias. They pop right out...

4* pinion angle is too much, you need 2.5*, with the driver in the car, and the car on the ground.

As a final question I have, why are you getting so worked up, if your going to buy a RACE CAR anyways. Your going to a LOT of aggravation just to run one 9 sec. number and then take the car back apart, as I believe Dave Burns alluded to already.

Hope this helps...

JH

[BUICK528]

You can not
balance a trailer tongue with these. that would be very treaturous, as there would be nothing there to keep it from sliding off.
You most certainly can, and it's done every day, all day, if you don't have a scale that reads 2000# dead tongue weight, you use the bathroom scale deal and figure the offset ratio, dependent on the arm length. In fact several camping, boating and RV trailer magazines have articles showing how to do this.

JH

[perry carlini]

Not to jump in here, but the 60 foots seem REALY lazy.....is it from not hooking up? That car, it's power, and even despite it's girth ought to be running 60 foots in the mid to high 1.30's which alone would put your car in the 9's. Optimized, you should be in the low 1.30's like me.
The weight is a puzzle to me as well.....my car hasn't been hacked anywhere, I still run factory buckets, stock brakes, stock front end parts, and with my largness in the front seat, I'm still just under 3800 lbs. A well known top stock racer has his car ALOT less than mine without cutting anything either. Whatever isn't needed needs to be removed. Bumper braces, door beams, convert to manual steering and brakes, lightweight 2 core alumnium radiator (some heads up guys run one core radiators), wiper motor, heater core, and so on. You would be suprised how fast it adds up.
The pictures I've seen of your car launching really show the tires wrapping up bad. I believe you need a tire with a much stiffer sidewall. I like the hoosier radials too and many of us use them. A great bias ply alternative is MT 10.5 x 29.5 which I will have mounted on a second set of wheels for questionable starting lines, but the radials are quicker.
I'll also suggest not changing 20 things at once. Lets get the car to stick, get the 60's where they need to be, and put it on a diet.
Perry Carlini

[Buicks4Speed]

THe Converter and springs.

I think you will find your most improvement in a set of front drag springs and a converter adjustment/change. The rear with stock configuration and anti-role bar does the least amount of movement so springs and shocks don't play as important of a role as up front. If you have so much movement that you need alot of shock work to control it, you have something wrong with your setup. The geometry is what is important and it has to work with the converter. If you have a quick, hard hitting converter then you need a suspension and tire combination to match. Generally the higher the stall, the longer the suspension has to respond. On a low-stall, high-torque setup, people tend to get good results out of DM's, Southsides, and other geometry altering components the move the IC back towards the rear so the tire have a quicker initial "hit" on them but have less leverage on transfering the weight. This works well on lower powered combination since they don't require as much weight transfer to the rear wheels to keep them planted. Back to "the stall" compaired to "your stall". It would benefit you as a tuning aid to get a play-back tach or add-on record device. If you don't know if your converter is working right for your combination, you could have a nuclear engineer design the state of the art suspension for your car that wont do anything if your converter is not working right for what you need. You need to be able to launch off idle to about 1000 rpm to keep from loading the suspension. If your loading the converter then your keeping your suspension and converter from working like its suppose to. If its not launching right or its best "highly-loaded" than the converter is WRONG! A transbrake would change things but thats not what were working with. On the playback, you want to be able to drop the playback into a "slow" playback so you can see the flash on the converter, rpm drop between shifts, and wheel spin. This way if your not getting the right flash, you have something to go off of when you send it off to get it adjusted. It gives the converter company a reference point to work off of. Until then a converter company will have to guess just like you would be. I feel you need a fairly high flash @4500-5000 to get things moving and to give the suspension time to respond but it will have to "lock-up"(tighten-up) quickly to keep it efficient going through the traps. Most of your wheels-up time is during your "flash" portion where the converter is multiplying the torque the most. Once the converter "locks up"(leaves the "flash" stage) and begins accelerating with the motor, the wheels come down and acceleration is strictly motor dependent. So if you can hold a higher flash longer(still in the power band) and still get an efficient lockup, this is where your fastest 60fts and et will be. This is generally 9" and 8" territory unless you get into blown/nitrous/1200+hp applications. ATI makes as good a converter as any. It is your size and configuration that is going to make the difference your looking for. Anything BUT a custom converter is a waste of money, PERIOD! You know all your car spec's and dyno #'s so all you need is the correct weight and your set. THere are guys making all different types of suspension combinations work. I figure your rear has to be a bit high to get that tire to fit and this is hurting you. You could probably get a narrower tire to work just as good if not better just by dropping your rear ride height. Not that you need to do this but don't limit yourself to a larger tire just to get it to work. I feel you can get your existing combination to work just as well. I ran the same 1.32 60ft with the "rear-up" running 29.5x10.5W as the "rear-down" with 28x10.5. All my problems and up's and down's revolved around the converter. It just becomes more apparent with the more power you make.

Don't be fooled by a 5000 stall 10" converter, it is nothing like 5000 stall 9" or 8". Each converter has it's own "efficiency" stall range to work with a given weight and Hp. Above this range its just sloppy and never locks up as it should and your et and mph will suffer. Generally on N/A engines, 10" range is 3000-4000, 9" 3800-5000, 8" 5000+. My 9" flashed to 5800+ on nitrous and never locked up. I wasted alot of Hp/Tq even though it ran 5.65 at 123 best w/1.32 60ft. I told them I needed to bring my flash down 1000rpm from what I had so I got a 10" that stalled right @4800. THey knew what I had and what I wanted and they nailed it first try. I never had enough time to dial it in or even get it to hook. It felt like I was spraying another 200hp with the new converter and it acted like it coming out of the hole too. :shock:

I don't have a specific answer or a part number for the "magic" converter or suspension combination, but I will try to explain things to help you understand so YOU can sort out what you need and what you don't. You don't need to "reinvent-the-wheel" to get what you have to work. Leave out the corner scales and just get an overall weight. Converters aren't cheep but if you have the right type and size, they can be adjusted if they are a little off and are worth the investment :beer . I would say a very tight 8" or 9" is what you need. You already have an ATI so I would talk with them about how yours is performing and see what they recommend and go from there. They will know best how to adjust from what you already have if its not working how it should. Understanding helps you interepet the knowledge. I hope this helped.

[BUICK528]

:TU:
I would say a very tight 8" or 9" is what you need. You already have an ATI so I would talk with them about how yours is performing and see what they recommend and go from there.excellent advice Rick. My A1 was a VERY tight 9", exactly like Benisek ordered, and it did more for my car than any one thing I EVER DID.

JH :TU:

[evil16v]

You most certainly can, and it's done every day, all day, if you don't have a scale that reads 2000# dead tongue weight, you use the bathroom scale deal and figure the offset ratio, dependent on the arm length. In fact several camping, boating and RV trailer magazines have articles showing how to do this.

JH


NOT with this one. if I had them here I would take a pic for you. it would speak a thousand words. maybe with an attachment for the tongue to sit on the fulcrum. then these could be used for this purpose up to 1200 lbs. the fulcrum plates are built to hold a tire.

[Jim Weise]

This is the kind of scale setup you need to beg, borrow, or steal.

The car is rolled up onto this scale, jacking it up, and then setting the wheel down on the scale will not give an accurate reading. Hence the ramps in front of the scales.

[Jim Weise]

They are electronic pads, and this is the readout box. It gives cross weighs, front/rear weights and percentages automatically.

I don't own these, it's about a $1500 setup, 5 local Buick racers got together and bought them a few years ago. They end up in the shop from time to time, and are essential tools once you reach the 9 second range with a big car.


This car loves the rear weights equal, with the LF heavy. Goes straight as an arrow. And I do mean, take your hands off the wheel on even a marginal track, and it goes straight! If the rear weights get goofy, it jumps to one side on the launch. That's our que to put it on the scales, and check to make sure the chassis did not develop a bind, you do this by bouncing the front or rear of the car, and making sure it comes back to the same reading, which is one of the most important functions of scaleing a car.

I suggest that you get together with the local Buick guys in the area, and all pitch in, and get a set of these. I have seen similar sets in the $1200 range.

The readings in the picture are pretty typical when the rod ends get dirty, or it gets bounced down the road in a trailer for 800 miles. Also, there is no driver sitting in this thing right now.. wish it weighed that with driver..

JW

PS.. I had a car that weighed 4110 with me in it, a full weight, all steel, full interior 70 GS, and I agree that you need to work that 60 foot time, as that car, with only 560 HP, would go 1.48 60 foots, even though it only ran low 11's in the quarter.

[BUICK528]

Yup, that is the MacDaddy setup my brother has. And, JW is correct, NEVER drop it on the scales. ALWAYS push it on.

JH

[GS Kubisch]

Then again,The are guys out there going 8.0's with 3000lb cars that have never been scaled.....Sometimes we make things harder than they have to be.

Me for instance,Had my car on 4-wheel scales this year and learned a little but I don't think it's the be-all-to-end-all......

JH
Thanks for the compliment,Hopefully some of what I've learned over the years at least shows up in the way my car works.

[Tom Haeffner]

Wow Perry..1.30s. :Brow: :laugh:

[perry carlini]

Still looking for a ......ahem......lighter driver.......
It may sound obvious, but you have to make these things rip off the line. One of many things Tom Rix has handed down to us is that you make them 60 foot. 1.26 I believe was his best which is nuts considering a 9 inch tire.
Perry Carlini

[RACEBUICKS]

Car has been put into storage indefinately will worry about this next year.