Hydraulic Clutch info.

[436'd Skylark]

OK, I have started to mount my master cylinder. So
far, it has been much harder than I oringinally
thought. Not Hard, just requiring more thought really.
My orignal idea was to mount the MC flat on the
firewall, with the rod perpendicular to the firewall.
As luck would have it, thats not really possible. The
MC has to be mounted right below the Powerbrake
booster. I am 99% sure that is where the factory
mechanical linkage passes through the firewall anyway.
(see arrow in pictures) So that is where the MC is to
be mounted, simply because it is the only place for
it. Hopefully the booster will hide it for that
stealth look.

Some Master Cylinder Science:

The MC needs 1 7/16" of travel. The rod needs to push
perfectly straight on the MC, or it will lead to
premature failure, or snap the rod right off. The pedal swings in an arc, that means that the rod will not be pushed squarely, but in an arc as well. In theory, at one
point in that arc, the rod will be pushing dead
straight on the MC. I'll call that the point of perfect relation. For best results, and least amount of rod angle, you want the point of perfect relation in the exact middle of
the MC travel, which will be the exact middle of pedal
travel too. Which is 23/32", or slighty more than
11/16". The mount on the pedal is has a 2 1/4" swing.
Since only 1 7/16" is needed, that translates into a
36% reduction in pedal throw, which leads to quicker
shifts...

[436'd Skylark]

Underdash picture... :3gears:

[436'd Skylark]

Hole Drilling
Drilling the hole for the master is the most important part of the mounting process. Also, the hardest. Since the pushrod has to be perfect, the hole needs to be drilled in the precise location. I made a mock up rod, stone age, but perfect, see picture. its 2 5/16" bolts, bolted together with the heads cut off each bolt. One end has a 90 degree bend, that fits in the pedal. The other end is ground to a point. The length of this mock up rod is very important, since it will determine exactly where the MC will be mounted. There are a few factors that determines it's length. First the pedal needs to be in the exact middle of it's swing. Since the pedal only needs 64% of its throw, you can decide how high the pedal sits at rest. either you can take the 36% from the bottom, or the top. I elected to take the swing from the top, other wise the pedal wouldn't go all the way to the floor when pushed. So I pushed the pedal all the way down, and pulled the pedal up until the rod mount traveled 11/16". That is the point of perfect relation for the pedal. (If you have no idea why I did this, refer to the "Master cylinder Science" a few threads up) I rigged the pedal so it wouldn't move from the PPR. On the firewall, I marked the exact spot where I wanted the MC to be. I measured between that spot, and the center of the rod mount whole on the pedal. I took that spec, and made the mock up rod that exact length. I made the rod too long, on purpose. I ground the excess of with my bench grinder to a point, once the rod was the perfect length I put it in place. I put the rod exactly where I wanted it to be on the firewall. Aftermaking a few precises adjustments, I marked the hole. Since the rod was ground down to a point, I stepped on the pedal really hard, and the point acted like a punch. then I drilled the hole. after I had the pilot hole, I used an 1 3/8" hole saw for the big hole.

[436'd Skylark]

Installed shot:

[436'd Skylark]

The master needs to sit at a downward angle to jive with the rod. This is more of the point of perfet relation jazz. Check out the illustration...

[436'd Skylark]

The master needs 1 3/8" spacing at the top, with 1/4" spacing on the bottom. That gives the correct angle. I had the spacer made at a local machine shop and cost around 25 bucks. not a bad deal. The MC will be bolted to the studs, and the flat part will have holes drilled into it, then bolted to the firewall. Simple, but it works. Here is a picture of it:

[436'd Skylark]

Another shot :3gears:

[436'd Skylark]

One more shot..

[Woodie]

SOMEONE STICKY THIS!!!!!!!!!

I have everything to do the swap, but my car was originally a 4-speed car...

Bellhousing goes to powder on Wednesday, and then, Ill start mine. Got any better deminsions on that bracket???

Please keep us posted and happy :3gears: :3gears: :3gears: :3gears:

Michael

[436'd Skylark]

For now thats all I have. This weekend the master will be mounted to the firewall, and the rod should be linked up. The master cylinder has a fine threaded 5/16" rod, so I bought a union, and some threaded rod. the original linkage only had a 90 degree bend with a cotter pin, so I'll probably try to make that work. Should be easy.

Let me know if you guys have any tips or suggestions, or even questions. If you want a picture of a certain something, let me know... thanks Joe :beer

[436'd Skylark]

SOMEONE STICKY THIS!!!!!!!!!

I have everything to do the swap, but my car was originally a 4-speed car...

Bellhousing goes to powder on Wednesday, and then, Ill start mine. Got any better deminsions on that bracket???

Please keep us posted and happy :3gears: :3gears: :3gears: :3gears:

Michael


Ok, I only have PSP 4.0, so cut me some slack. it might be somewhat confusing. let me know. I wish I had auto cad. The bracket itself may need to be modified somewhat, so before you reproduce, let me try it out first. I really think it will work fine though. :beer

[buickgsman]

Hey Joe. I've done this exact swap to my car. I have all the brackets and master/slave combinations. I've done almost exactly all the same things you"ve done, so I think you are on the right track. if you want, PM me and I may be able to help you out a bit.

Bob

[Woodie]

WOW!!! I wasn't looking for anything that detailed... Hell... Confusing is taking measurements on your head, upsidedown, under the dash, flash light in your teeth, holding your self up with your right hand while measuring and jotting all the info down with your left hand... Thats confusing... :puzzled:

Sorry it early.....

This is a good base line to get started.


Thanks,

Michael

[436'd Skylark]

This raised lip will need to ground off so the adapter plate will sit flat on the firewall.

[436'd Skylark]

Here is what it should look like with the lip ground off. I also drilled the big hole for the master. not too shabby.

[436'd Skylark]

Here is the bracket on the wall. it needs to be marked and drilled.

[436'd Skylark]

The MC rod will be linked to the pedal with a heim joint. the MC has a 5/16" fine threaded rod fixed to it. I bought some fine threaded rod and a union, join the two rods, cutting the threaded rod to the right length first. The heim joint has a spherical joint on one end, and a female 5/16" end on the other, so the threaded rod will screw right in. It will be pretty slick. I got the joint from stockcarproducts.com it ran about 4 bucks. Check out the picture...

[436'd Skylark]

This is the bracket that the pedal assembly mounts too. It will need to be removed in order to swap the pedals. The four studs go through the firewall and actually hold the booster on. the last two bolt holes are the only other bolts that hold the bracket in place. Those bolts just happen to be the same bolts that hold the steering column. It can be pulled out with the pedal still in place, it takes some time though. Removing the pedals with out takeing the bracket out was a huge pain in the nads. There is one long bolt that holds the auto brake pedal in. For the manual cars, the clutch pedal has a long rod that goes through the brake pedal with a simple clip to hold it in place. it works. Check out the pics.

[436'd Skylark]

another shot. :3gears:

[436'd Skylark]

heres a shot of the pedal hooked to the MC, this is with out the threaded rod peice. I only put this peice together to see how well the peices fit. :3gears:

[Woodie]

TTT... Hows it going????


Michael

[436'd Skylark]

Here's a picture of the master mounted. I Had my brother help me out by holding the mastercylinder/bracket assembly against the firewall, as I nudged it around unitl it was dead square. We marked it, then drilled the holes through the firewall and mounted it.

Notice how the MC comes out at almoust the exact angle of the steering column. I did have to switch to a remote resevior master cylinder. The resevior needs a peice of 1/4" brake line bent up and around the booster, to a simple resevior that I pirated off my S-10 blazer.

[436'd Skylark]

Here is a shot of the pedal hooked to the master. The heim joint worked very good. Notice how the Clutch pedal is at the same height of the brake pedal. The cluth pedal has a much shorter throw than the stock Z-bar setup. Which equals quicker, easier shifts.

[Woodie]

Looking Good!!! :TU: :TU: :TU:

Got my clutch and bellhousing in, and trying to find someone who can make the bracket.

Did you have to brace up your clutch pedal???

And when you did your tall spindle conversion, what spindles and outer tie rod did you use???


Michael

[436'd Skylark]

I haven't been able to step on the clutch yet. I have not hooked the lines up yet. I have the tranny in place, with the lines hanging off the throw-out bearing. I bought the generic lines, which are ridicously long themselves, so I'll need too cut and splice them. In the one picture you can see the braided stainless hose.

As far as the tall spindles, The spindles are from a 71 Z/28. Thats as far as I have gotten. I still need to buy the upper arms and balljoints. AS far As I know,stock f or B-body tie rods work.

[Pontiacpete]

Ok so like this hasn't been updated with where you are at and I am curious as to what progress (with pictures) has been made.

Don't leave us hanging here! :shock:

[MPRY1]

Seeing how a Hydraulic clutch setup could be used on any A body regardless of engine, I am suprised no one has come up with and marketed a ready to go kit. Repo'ed Chevelle pedal assemblies are already being made. I know they don't work well with a factory Buick linkage, but for a hydro clutch that wouldn't matter. How hard would it be to either modify those, or have someone make the pedals with the needed reinforcement and proper holes. Only thing needed next would be the firewall mount. Everything else is already available.

I would think whoever comes out with this kit would do a fair amount of business seeing how there seems to be a boom in 4/5 speed conversions in not only Buicks, but all of the GM A bodys. (There are ALOT of Chevelles out there) :)

BTW companies have been selling kits like this for years for early Mustangs as well as Jeeps.

If you build it they will come. :grin: I'd be all over going with a hydro setup if there was a kit ready to go. :beer

[436'd Skylark]

I'm waiting on some Stainless steel line to make the resivior and stuff. Later this week I'll have an update.

[Pontiacpete]

Actually AI was gonna wait and see how JOE's transformation goes and if it works well, then see what he would charge to send me the custom parts :grin:

[BuickGSXJuiced]

i gotta ask this question, my buick is being transfered to a 4-speed super t-10 borg warner, what is the advantage to puting this master cylinder on my clutch vrs. the original way it hooks up?????

[Woodie]

AAAhhhhhh.... My car is an original 4-speed car, but the previous owner installed the th-400. I'm doing it this way cause the Z-bar wont clear the KB headers...

I would assume that there would be less pedal effort with hydrulic M/C... I'm using a Centerforce Dual friction clutch, howe bearing and wilwood MC. It is a real B!#CH getting every thing in the bellhousing thou... And finding the misc parts...:af: :af:

Michael

[geoff_l_wood]

hey guys, I am a newbie to this forum, more of a lurker and have been watching this thread, but I am quickly approaching time to buy parts and was wondering if anyone could give part numbers for the throwout bearing and master cylinder you are using... Thanks...

[436'd Skylark]

I have some good updates, however my real computer is down so I have cannot load any pictures. everything is hooked up, but I still need to bleed it out. I wish I could load everything.

[staged67gspwr]

This is some very interesting stuff,where did you get the master and brackets and stuff?let me know as i may want to switch to the hydraulic set up myself.

Thanks

[scottie]

You guys might want to check out firebird/camaro hydraulic clutch setups. The have a hydraulic master and slave. You can buy one brand new from the dealership with stainless steel braided hose. They are very nice pieces. The master is also already slanted so you do not have to make that angle bracket to make it work. It also allows for the pushrod to not go straight into the master cylinder, so the pushrod relation is not as critical. Check out the picture posted. These pictures were pirated from thesewebsites, check it out. http://garage-scene.home.att.net/t5_install.htm, http://members.tripod.com/motohead10/index.htm
There are other links on the first website to others that list different ways to install the tremec with hydraulic or manual setups. Worth a look.
Scottie

[scottie]

I just remembered, you need the special transmission bellhousing to make this hydraulic slave work. The stock camaro small block bellhousing has the bracket the slave bolts to. Would have to fabricate a bracket to make the slave work with the Buick bellhousing. I posted a picture of this bellhousing above.
Hope this helps

[436'd Skylark]

I finally bled out the system and it works!!! :3gears: I have no leaks or anything!!!! My computer is still messed up, but I'll try something. Anyway it was a real PITA to bleed out but it is all worth it. I have about 200 invested, and I think it was money well spent. I'll try to post a few pictures tomorow...

[436'd Skylark]

Here is my materials list so far:
Master cylinder PN WIL-260-6089 $44.95
Throw out bearing- HRE-82840 $147.39
AN hose kit w/bleeder HRE-8289 $39.99
5/16 Heim joint ------ $3.99
5/16 Threaded Rod $1.99
3/8 flare to #4 AN adaptor $9.95
#4 AN fitting $8.95
Adaptor bracket $25.00

Grand total- $282.21

I only finished bleeding it out Last night around 11:45. I can already tell it was worth it. The pedal is very smooth, with no binding whatsoever. I greased the hell out of the pedal linkage so there is no squeaks. The pedal is still hard to push, but I went with the dual Friction clutch from cenerforce, I wouldn't expect it to be easy. I can't get over how short teh pedal travel is. I just drove a friends 4 spd 71 camaro SS with a mechanical linkage and a dual friction clucth. Pedal effort is about the same but it seemed like the pedal needed to be pushed 3 feet for the clutch to disengage. My knee was pretty much hitting the steering wheel, then it would be fully extended at the bottom. With this setup the pedal is only pushed about 5 inchs. I Love it...
:3gears: :3gears: :3gears:

Here would be the advantages of this setup:
-shorter pedal throw
-no wear parts
-no mantiance/ adjustments neccesay
-no header clearance issues
-easier to find parts.
-clean look
-no "swap meet only" parts needed
-works with any bellhousing and tranny
-fewer componets in the system= SIMPLE

Disadvantages:
-harder to setup
-Holes need to be drilled in firewall. Not a big deal to me, but if I had a 70 GSX stage one 4 speed, I'd rather not poke holes in it! :Do No:
-Fab time

I'd suggest this to anyone, and I'd be willing to mass produce the brackets and assemble everything needed in a kit of sorts. Give me some feed back here-

I'll try like hell to post few pictures tonight. My computer is a peice of crap so no guarantees...
-

[greg davis]

I think this is a great solution. I am looking forward to seeing the pics.

[MPRY1]

Pics Pics Pics!!!! :)

[rdj59]

So how is it driving it on the street? :3gears: :3gears:

Jeramie

[436'd Skylark]

Finally some pictures. :Comp:

Here is a shot of the lines hooked to the master. This is all that will be visible once the fenders are in place

[436'd Skylark]

Here is a picture of the lines hooked to the master cylinder.
The arrow points to where the steel line meets the braided hose. I wound up cuting the braided hose as it was ridicously long and flaring it with a #4 union, then adapting the #4 to 3/16 brake line. Dealing with the braided hose wasn't bad, just requires some patience, and some lube. I mounted the line against the firewall with a clip.

As you can see from the picture, one line goes to the resiviour, and the other loops to the braided hose and into the howe bearing.

[436'd Skylark]

more pictures of the lines:

Once bled, the bleeder line will need to zip tied up, only so it is off the ground. easy stuff.

[d7cook]

Here's pics of my conversion.

I put the master cylinder in a little higher and less angle. The fill line ended up needing a bajo fitting to clear the brake booster (not like the picture show's).

I used a Ram Hydraulic Throwout Bearing. The bleed is not at the very top and I have to jack the car on one side to get it bleed all the air.

I'm also going to buy a threaded shaft from McMaster Carr to replace the threaded rod (bent a rod already). I also want to add a stop to the clutch pedal to keep from bottoming it out against the MC.

Overall it works well.

Thanks for the posts!

[racenu]

I know its an old thread and after about a year i finally mounted my hyd slave cylinder for my hyd throwout bearing.

With the help of the v8 board i improvised the bracket..which someone should supply.

Made a cardboard template then used light gauge steel and bent in a brake.

Recently I talked to McLoed (my kit came from them) and asked if they have a bracket yet for the "A" body's and they said no and that there a only a few people that request one?

Heres the pics..
Remote reservior mounted near the windshield wiper.

Hope to see if it all works in the coming months...5 years and counting:pray:

[buicksstage1]

Here are a few pics for a conversion I did 4or5 years ago. Bench bleed the unit before you install it, air goes to the highest part of the master. The outlet to the slave is pointing down so if its mounted the air will get trapped up top. I modified the clutch pedal rod by cutting it, drilled and tapped a hole in it with a jamb nut. That way I still kept the off set in the rod to keep things lined up. Also the slave I used has a constant running release bearing so I had to build a adjustable stop to keep some press on the bearing at all times to keep it spinning. I will see if I can find more pics.....