401 NailHead

[laylowcustoms]

I just bought a 63 buick electra with a 445 Wildcat in it. It was driven about 15 years ago and parked. An old lady bought it back in 1968 and had it until she died. The last time the car was plated was 1975. She died in 1989. A neighbor of her's bought the car and wanted to restore it. Needless to say he drove it for a week and parked it. Thats where I come into the picture. I saw it one day and decided to buy it.
I am no a mechanic but I know my fair share. I put a new battery in it and it turns over. I'm not able to get it to fire. I replaced the pugs, wires and switched to a electronic ignition. With still no luck.
Sence I'm having no such luck with this car I'm going to pull the engine and transmission and switch to a small block chevy.
The odometer as well as the title says 23,000 miles. It has the 2 speed powerglide transmission in it as well. I know they use this transmission for a lot dragsters.

Anybody interested?

[awake13]

Your swap will be interesting as the chev has a front oil sump and the buick a middle. Metal fabrication may be necessary for transmission and driveshaft lengths as well. I always like to see something fired up before writing it off.
If your sure you have spark. and your firing order is correct, Buick is not chev. 1843... I would start dumping the gas down her throat until you get it to
fire, and believe me it will.

[laylowcustoms]

I know I'm getting spark. I'm using the passenger side as #1 and my firing order is 12784563. Its on the valve cover. I used starting fluid and it puffed it back at me. :rant:

[55spcl]

Are you sure you put the distributor back in right. I wouldnt give up on the nailhead they are bad ass motors especialy dressed up. Torque monsters. The amount of money youll spend on all the issues when you swap to an sbc. You could get a local nailhead guy to look at it. But if you want to dump it I'm sure a ton of people on here would want it. I could probably find someone that would want it in your neigborhood on another chat board I go on in a couple minutes.

[awake13]

O.K. adjust the choke so its fully closed and dump about 4oz of gas in it. Nailheads take alot of fuel without a choke. When it fires pour more gas in.

[laylowcustoms]

I didn't remove the dist. when I changed the points to electronic ignition. I did it in the car. The points window is pointing toward the front of the car as it did when I took it off. When I matched the harmonic balancer to the line on the block the rotor was pointing toward drivers side. I tryed using that as #1. I also checked to see if the plugs were 180 out. I also tryed the drivers side as #1 and checked it 180 out as well. My last try I used what a lot of people were saying and used the plug insert to the left of the window. Didn't work either. :Do No: I tryed to turn the distributor but budge. :confused: (its loose enough to turn with your fingers)

Help?

[awake13]

Remove passenger side front plug. This is number 1. Turn crank till timing marks align. Insert screwdriver through spark plug hole. Is piston at top?
Yes . Note rotor position of distributor. Place cap on and place wires in firing order with number 1 aligned to rotor.
No. Turn crank 360 degrees and go to Yes above.
LOssen distributor hold down. get a buddy to pour gas in and rotate distributor back and forth an inch each way till firing and setting achieved.

[The Old Guy]

The 401 and the Dynaflow were both "bullet proof" by 63 , and I believe the "Nailhead" will make more HP then a small block ,unless you do some upgrading to the Chev.

[BuickLeSabre1960]

Hey, glad to see you got on here. I would try to get the nailhead going, they are really superior to chevys. You are using new gas right?

[laylowcustoms]

Ok. I'm pretty sure I'm going to rebuild the engine. Figure I'd probably end up with the same amount of money in either engine. Plus it would probably be worth it to save the frustration of making motor mounts.

I checked the compression in each cylinder and they were all different. Ranging from #2 at 55psi to #7 at 145 psi.

I'm in the process of pulling the engine. What do I need to do when I Rebuild it? I'm not really interested in a high performance engine but just a good running one. I was going to have the heads done by a Professional but I would be assembling it. Should I mess with the pistons or rings? I've never rebuilt an engine before. Should I attempt this myself?

[awake13]

Squirt oil in the low cylinder and recheck compression, If compression comes up it is a ring related problem if it stays down its valves.
There may be others that disagree but for my money engine rebuilding is best left to the pros.
For a start you should have the block and heads and rods tanked and magna fluxed for cracks. The bottom end should be checked for straight and line bored if necessary. Rods should be resized and new pistons installed. Bearing size checked on crank.
The rocker arm assembly is a piece of art in itself..maybe someone will chime in or you could search rebuilding it. Ian

[laylowcustoms]

I'm not trying to build a "Perfect" engine so I wouldn't think everything has to be identical. Like I said I did a compression test. I also Squirted oil into the cylnders and rechecked the compression. #s are as follows.
Before After
#1 115 135
#2 55 60
#3 110 110
#4 110 120
#5 50 65
#6 130 130
#7 145 125
#8 100 135

What is an aceptiable range. Obviously #2 and #5 are not acceptiable. All valves are working.

[Jim Cannon]

I agree these compression numbers are not the best, but they are good enough to run. You probably have a couple of sticky valves. They will clear up with time. Get the old girl running and give the time to clear up. You guys give up too easily. Check fuel pressure and volume, etc. Fuel filter? Put a timing light on it while you crank it. That will confirm spark and confirm you are getting it close to the correct timing.

You might have to rebuild the engine, but I would not be so quick to do that without running it a bit first.

[laylowcustoms]

I droped the heads off at a machine shop to get checked out. They'll let me know later on in the week how they are. Does anybody know where I can get specs on the engine? Mainly headbolts torque. Would hate to snap off a bolt in the newly finished heads.

When I bought it the guy said that he thought the timing was getting off the last time he drove it. (14+ years ago) I loosened the distributor hold down and can move it with my fingers. The distributor won't budge. Either way I rotate it or it wont evenlift out. I have the top of the engine cover off and I can see the cam shaft working and everything looks to be inorder. The distributor moves too. The rotor moves aswell. Someone said that you can help correct a jump in the timing chain by moving the dist. But it wont budge. :af:

[Jim Cannon]

If your timing chain has slipped, you can not correct for it with just the distributor. You need to get the cam back in time with the crank (if that's what really happened).

I don't think that's what the previous owner meant when he said the timing was off. But you can only tell for sure with the timing cover off.

For all the torque values, you really need a factory shop manual. You can get a paper copy for about $35 and a CD version for ??? ($60?). You are right, you don't want to mess that up.

The distributor body needs to turn in the block. That's the only way to get the ignition timing right. Soak the base of it with some P-B Blaster. Gently tap it loose.

What kind of electronic ignition dod you put it? Did you run full 12 volts to it?

[laylowcustoms]

Where would I find a shop manual?
I'm using Pertronix electron ignition kit and a flame thrower coil. Its what summitracing told me i needed. I also know that the airgap is right aswell.

[55spcl]

ebay, books4cars, do a serch on your computer you'll find a shop manual around.

[doc]

cyl heads 65-80
intake manifold25-35
rocker arm bracket 25-35
connecting rods 40-50
main brg.95-120
fly wheel to crank 50-65
harmonic balancer 200 min.

[doc]

If you have the heads off, no 1 is at the rt front of the eng. Bring no 1 piston up to top dead center, where the timing mark is lined up with the pointer. The rotor should be pointed at no one spark plug tower in the dist, or close to it. If it isnt it should be 180 deg out. [it takes 2 reveloutions of the crank to fire all 8 cyls] If the rotor is any where else it probably has jumped time at the crank shaft. Along at that time the factory used the plastic covered timing gears that would peel off and jump time . If the eng has 75000 miles on it figure on replacing the timing gears and chain. To check out the slack bring the gear up to tdc and watch the rotor. slowly move the crank back and forth with a wrench and see how much travel there is before the rotor starts to move in either direction. There should not be much slack there.
normal cycle should be, tdc with the rotor at no 1 , 2complete turns of the crank, tdc with the rotor pointed at no 1 again. remember the rotor should be either at no 1 spark plug tower or 180 deg from no 1 , any thing else wont work. The dist turns at half the speed of the crank and the same speed as the cam.
As far as compression, 90 pounds psi is the min. on a cyl if it is less it may be because the rings are dry. squirt about 2 tbs. no more into each cyl and then recheck the pressures. they may come up above 90.
Be sure you dont put more than 2 spoons of oil into the cyls. because more can cause hydro static lock and you will bend the rods. :Brow:

[Jim Cannon]

Though I'm not a big fan of Pertronix, I do know that they need a full 12 volts run to them with a new wire. You cannot use the stock wire to the coil. It only gives you about 9 volts. That won't keep it from starting, but it will run like crap.

[laylowcustoms]

When I checked the coil voltage. It was 12volts when I turn it on and droped to 7 after about 2 seconds. So I need to run a new switched wire to the coil? Or constant? If switched what is your opinion of using the factory wire to operate a relay to power an aftermarket wire. What kind of amperage does this pull? Sudjested wire gauge?
I'm an installer at a local stereo Proshop. I install remote starts daily so there isn't much I dont understand when it comes to electral systems.

[laylowcustoms]

I've never had to replace the timing chain before. How hard is it to do? The whole top half of the engine is torn apart. Just Block, pistons, and waterpump. What do I have to do to change the timing. Do I have to replace the gears as well or just the chain? Have they fixed the problems with the factory ones? Is it hard to find the new chain?

[laylowcustoms]

By the way my Dist. cap is held on by screw clips. I hate this design. :af: It moves a rotates a little each way. Will this mess with the timing?

[Jim Cannon]

If you want, you can use the factory wire to operate a relay, and have the relay supply the full 12 volts. Use a 10 A inline fuse on that direct wire. Size the wire for that max load. Make all of the connections very secure because if you lose any of it, the engine stops.

There is a resistor in the factory wire. That's why the volts go down. you need the full 12 volts, no resistor.

[laylowcustoms]

There is a resistor in the factory wire. That's why the volts go down. you need the full 12 volts, no resistor.


Is the resistor low enough in value so that it will not mess with the operation of relay?

[Jim Cannon]

As long as the relay will latch with 7 or 8 volts, you are OK. Get as low a draw relay you can get. By that I mean the relay coil not drawing much. And the contacts should be rated for at least 10 amps.

Oh, and about the distributor cap fitting a bit loose: don't worry about it. That is not what controls timing. Movement of the distributor body does.

[BuickLeSabre1960]

On my brothers Catalina we just replace that resistance wire.

[Jim Cannon]

Yup, you can do that, too.

But when the Pertronix dies and you want to put regular points back in, you will need the resistor wire. ;-)

[laylowcustoms]

so the Protronix ignition module needs the resistance wire but the new coil needs the full 12volts?

The relays I use are made by Directed Electronics Inc. (DEI) Makes viper, clifford, etc. They are 30/40s

[Jim Cannon]

No, it all needs the full 12 volts.

[laylowcustoms]

If I have to replace the timing chain, do I have to pull the engine? How hard is it to change the timing? If the timing chain has jumped, how do I get the camshaft back inline with the crank? :Do No:

[Jim Cannon]

You do not need to pull the engine, just the radiator.

If you don't have a factory shop manual already, you really should get one. It tells you all you need to know about stuff like timing the cam to the crank, torque, other little details that will mess you up.

In general, there is an "O" mark on the crank gear that you position at the top and an "O" mark on the cam gear that you get pointing down when the chain is on. In fact, just by pulling the cover you can check these marks and see if the chain has jumped. Turn crank until mark on lower gear is at top. If timing has not jumped, and if the chain is not too loose, you can replace the cover with a new gasket and be done with it.

[laylowcustoms]

I checked the timing. The harmonic balancer lines up with the crank when Piston #1 is at tdc. So I dont think it has jumped timing. The rotor isn't pointed at the plug directly next to the window but the one after. One directly to the pass. side.
The dist. body now turns. The hold down is no longer in place. should the gear that goes to the cam turn? or just the body? all that turns is the body.

[Jim Cannon]

You are confusing "valve timing" with "ignition timing". They are two separate, but related, things.

The only way to confirm you have correct *valve timing* (to confirm that the timing chain has not slipped) is to pull the timing cover and look at the marks on the gears. I don't know if it has slipped or not. Based on the compression numbers you gave a long time ago, I don't think it has, but the only way to know for sure is to look.

The ignition timing is what you can adjust by turning the body of the distributor, now that you have it loose. The rotor (you can see it with the cap off) does not move, but the distributor body does. This is separate from the valve cam timing.

HOWEVER, the distributor rotor is DRIVEN BY the camshaft. So, if your timing chain has slipped, and your valves are wrong (you do not have correct valve timing), your ignition timing would also be affected. Read that again.

I would say you have a 98% chance that your valve timing is OK, but you will drive yourself crazy if you don't know for sure. Pull the timing cover and convince youreself. Then put it all back together with new gaskets (and gasket spray, and goop on the bolt threads) and put the heads on, and set the ignition timing and fire that mother up!!!

I don't understand how you could convert the distributor to Pertronix if it was stuck in the engine and you could not turn the dist body... You never took it out of the engine? :confused:

[GOSFAST]

Ask your machinist to set heads up for "unleaded, while they're bein' worked on. Now's the time. Or you'll go thru exhaust valves/seats and exh. guides. More so if you use the car for cruising rather than daily weekend driver. Torque (head) on the all nailheads 401 is 65/75#. If you put 70# you'll be OK.
Mains=105# - Rods=40/45# - Intake=25# -
Am in process of building 2 nailheads. One will be a fancy 426 C.I. stroker with aluminum heads(?), aluminum connecting rods, and Ross lite-weight slugs, chasing 500+ H.P. on 93 octane, but don't know yet. Will be about 3 to 4 more weeks before I get to bolt it up to the dyno. The other will be a weekend driver. The fancy one is going in a tubbed '53 Henry J with Hillborn.

[laylowcustoms]

when I did the electronic igniton swap, I installed everything while it was still in the car. I do have another question about "ignition timing" I know if the timing is too far out it will not fire. Is there anyspecific place I should start the dist. at?

[laylowcustoms]

Ok. I got my heads back yesterday and installed them as well as the top half of the engine. I havn't tryed to start it yet but I will soon. :TU:

I went ahead and did a compression test to compair the numbers again. Is it possible to loose compression with new heads??? :puzzled: My cylinder #6 & #7 have went down. They even did it when I added oil to them. I just rulled it out that I hadn't crancked it long enough. But they are even lower than they were to start with.

Base line Oiled New heads
#6 130 115 95
#7 145 125 135

My #2 & #5 are up but not in the optimal range. I only have a few guesses for them. Lifters or piston rings. Really hope its not the rings. I got the engine back together but I'd rather pull the intake again rather than the entire engine. :(

[Matts62LeSabre]

I just bought a 63 buick electra with a 445 Wildcat in it. It was driven about 15 years ago and parked. An old lady bought it back in 1968 and had it until she died. The last time the car was plated was 1975. She died in 1989. A neighbor of her's bought the car and wanted to restore it. Needless to say he drove it for a week and parked it. Thats where I come into the picture. I saw it one day and decided to buy it.
I am no a mechanic but I know my fair share. I put a new battery in it and it turns over. I'm not able to get it to fire. I replaced the pugs, wires and switched to a electronic ignition. With still no luck.
Sence I'm having no such luck with this car I'm going to pull the engine and transmission and switch to a small block chevy.
The odometer as well as the title says 23,000 miles. It has the 2 speed powerglide transmission in it as well. I know they use this transmission for a lot dragsters.

Anybody interested?
Dont Change to a chevy Motor, I tried it on another buick I had. NIGHTMARE. I ended up going back to the 401. Alot of fabrication is needed to do it right. The 401 is a killer motor.

Best,

Matt

[CameoInvicta]

Whoa, this is a WAY old thread. I'm assuming he gave up on the car seeing as how he hasn't posted in over two years.

[53 Super]

I tell ya what guys, if the ol lady drove it last, then he worked on the dist - you know what the old adage is, it's the last thing you touched.....
And, I bet, the timing was slightly retarded for its condition. I build engines for a living and dyno each one of them. I know if I set up the timing as the old books say, and as many have said here, without the engine being in a fresh enough condition I bet it would have started if he woulda just cranked that dist a little advanced.

As I was reading down the post I was looking forward to reccomending that, until I got to the post where he pulled the heads. Crap!

I'll give ya'll an update on firing my 322 after it's been sitting for 26 years.
It ran like a watch when parked. Fingers crossed but I think she'll huff and puff and slowly come to life again. Got to finish installing the master cylinder. Then I need a new battery. :Brow:

Good luck on your 401. You'll be very happy with it. People here will make sure you give it your best shot.

[CameoInvicta]

Does anybody even look at the dates stuff was posted? LOL :laugh: !