Nitrous + Converter [Archive]

Buicks4Speed

10-31-2002, 08:07 PM

:puzzled: I Just got back from running in the Wild Street Race at Rockingham and my nitrous is still blowing right through my converter. I trans brake at 3400 and the Nitrous is set to come on at 3600. My 9" competition converter flashes to 5800-6000 before tightening up and only drops to 6200 from 6800 when shifting my glide to high gear. Even when short shifted the rpms won't drop below 6000. I'm not using all the torque the nitrous is making. I figure anything much past 5000 and I'll be giving up e.t.
I run a Art Carr 9" with a "F" stator and 45 degrees of fin angle. A "C" stator is the tightest stater Art Carr makes next to a steel stater, and 50 degrees is as tight as they will go on the fin angle. I was told if I had a "P" stator they would have alot of room to work but its an "F" so it doesn't look good. I have already sent the converter off once and they adjusted the fin angle to 45 degrees. The converter is rated at a 3200-3500 stall. I can't hold it on the brakes past 3000rpm. Anyone setting up a converter for nitrous and want to get full benefits make sure its REAL TIGHT! Buicks make LOTS:blast: of torque, don't waste it.
I talked to Coan who makes a good competition converters told me they could make a 9" so tight that it would stall my car out when I put it in gear. Of course it runs $979 on sale w/ a steel stator. It could just be you get what you pay for. I still paid $700 for the Art Carr unit but its wasted money if it doesn't work how I need it.
I ran 5.70 at 123 this weekend on a 210 hp shot. With the converter right I hope to run 5.50's at 126.
I don't have enough money to spend it twice so I figure neither does anyone else not to mention the hasle of taking out converters on shipping them off.
This is not the same converter that I stood the car up with and being that its in a 11 second street car there's no getting it back so I'm trying to get this one to work at least as good if not better than my last one :gt: That's why you change things to make them better, right?
I'll be taking the converter back out to have it set up as tight as it will go and I will keep the board posted. I Have been real happy with Art Carr's 9" converters and I still have hope It just didn't work out of the box like it was suppose to. Thats just racing I guess.:TU:

SRRAY iT aND LET iT FLY!!!:stmad: :stmad: :stmad:

GS Kubisch

10-31-2002, 08:24 PM

Rick
My buddy is going through the same deal('87 Firebird w/ 572 and glide)
He went 8.7's in the spring,changed the plate in favor of the fogger.......
now the car won't move w/o smoking the tires.....he's hitting it w/ 325 on the starting and thinks the converter is too loose.
I think he should start w/ 150/200 and work up to it,or make some suspension adjustments.
He frustrates me because he won't back off the nitrous just to get started.

Anyway...keep after it,you can pave the way for me when/if I get the nerve to spray my clunker.
Good luck and keep us posted.

Buick

10-31-2002, 08:55 PM

Hi Rick.

Coan is about a 45 minute drive from the house. I had my trans and convertor done by them and I'm very pleased, though I run a much milder combo than your beast. I feel I spent my money well with them.

I dealt with Art at Coan and recommend talking with him. I asked a bunch of questions on the phone and in person and he dealt with me as if I were as important as their regular NHRA customers. He knew what had let go inside my trans even before I brought it to him. He was also able to describe the internal components and construction of my 10 year old convertor from another manufacturer before they even cut it open. That impressed me.

It would suck a big one if you dropped a grand and still had 6000 stall though! Maybe others here can also help you decide.

Good luck.

Ramin

cray1801

10-31-2002, 11:12 PM

Rick, I did get your call last week, sorry I could not make the race. I was in LA at a wedding :rolleyes: . I did speak with a guy in Fuquay-Varina that said he saw you run.

My project is coming along however. I need to find a engine dyno within a couple of weeks, got any suggestions? I've got one possibility, a guy I met in Rockingham on the 19th. He's located in Concord, close to Charlotte. I also met a couple of Buick racers Tom Rix and another guy named Jay both Buick racers (nice guys).

Looking forward to you getting that converter situation resolved. I've got to see that thing run, any more races before it gets too cold?

alan

11-01-2002, 12:50 AM

I bought a "tight" 9" converter from Coan for my turbocharged 455. I haven't spent much time sorting things out but on the shifts the engine RPM didn't drop much at all and stayed above 5000. I also tried short-shifting to no avail. I have a 10" that I'm trying for now, but if you find something that works well with a lot of torque I'd like to know!

Brewers in Sharpsburg has a little test and tune day (we call it the Christmas Nationals!) that coinsides with our Christmas brunch at work. It will be on 12-13-02 this year. (Friday the 13th!)

Stage Zero

11-03-2002, 01:12 PM

Anyone used the converters from Earick Racing? http://www.wsx.net/ere/

OUTRAGEOUS

11-03-2002, 08:25 PM

I have an Earick racing conv. in my street '71. it is a 9''. I compared it to a "off the shelf 10'' My results: 2.5 tenths quicker + 2mph quicker. my short times were the same between the two converters. The Earick converters do not have that "looseness" you typically feel while driving on the street. it's a VERY heavy duty well- built piece. Gary Paine (GREAT SCAT) runs one & had similar results as well. Brian Earick would be happy to help you! Hope this helps!:beer Randy

Buicks4Speed

11-04-2002, 09:01 AM

Earick Only rates there 9" at 600+ ft lbs of torque and I figure I'm making closer to 900+ at 5500 rpm. I don't think it will be much better than the Art Carr unit I have. I'm sure both Art Carr and Earick converters are excellent pieces but I think I've exceeded there operation range. :spank:
I will be talking to Art himself today and I will let you know what he has to say. I want to know if they changed they design of converters when they went to the billet housing. I feel my old style converter was much tighter than my new one that was suppose to be matched to it.:Do No:

Coan guarentees me they can make a 9" that will be plenty tight enough. They also recommended a steel stator for the torque level I say I'm at.

Alan, If the weathers right and I've got my converter back from Art Carr I'll try to be there. Have you sent back your converter to have it adjusted at all? Where exactly is your Coan unit on the TIGHT scale? What stator are you running? Do you know what you conveter flash stalls to? If you short shift what do your rpms drop to, Ball park figures? :Smarty: How fast have you been so far?

alan

11-04-2002, 12:49 PM

I'm running a different one for now so I haven't sent it back yet.

I've had the converter out of the car for a few years now, and I don't even remember which stator it has! If I can find the sales reciept I'll let you know (there may be numbers on the converter that will tell, I'll look and see.)

I told them what I was running and it was supposed to be set up tight, but I don't know if that's tight for the combo or tight for a 9"!

and stayed above 5000

I should have said stays around 5000 and as I remember the RPMS didn't drop on the shift (may have a little, but that was before I installed a datalogger)

Quickt

11-09-2002, 10:29 PM

Rick you might want to check out a Neil Chance Pro-Mod converter. You can get it in a bolt together so stall changes are a easy. They make converters for 2000 HP not a cookie cutter converter like a Coan or a Carr. We have a local guy running one has a 3450lb car and runs a 350 shot of the juice car runs 5.51@129 with a slip % of around 5%. They are popular in the Hi HP turbo cars as well. Check it out.

Lonnie

GS69350

11-13-2002, 01:47 PM

Quickt said:Rick you might want to check out a Neil Chance Pro-Mod converter. You can get it in a bolt together so stall changes are a easy. They make converters for 2000 HP not a cookie cutter converter like a Coan or a Carr. We have a local guy running one has a 3450lb car and runs a 350 shot of the juice car runs 5.51@129 with a slip % of around 5%. They are popular in the Hi HP turbo cars as well. Check it out.

Lonnie

5.51 @ 129? Thats 1/8 or 1/4?? I'd imagine a 5 second quarter being at 200 + ?

Dan (with a modest 250 hp 350 : ))

Quickt

11-13-2002, 03:26 PM

Yep thats an 1/8 mile time.

Buicks4Speed

11-13-2002, 04:03 PM

My converter is at Art Carr as we speak and I'm suppose to call them back in about 30 min. to see what the verdict is on my converter. If they can't tell me they can tighten it up 1200 or more rpm I'll be looking at other converters but I have to give them a chance since I already have my money in this converter.:Do No: :gt:

Dennis Halladay

11-14-2002, 06:58 AM

Neal Chance is the converter of choice for most of the very fast heads up cars arround here. Several mid to high 7 second cars in that class at over 180mph, I think they have aprox. 2800lb. minimum weight. I would definately give a call to Neal Chance to ask questions even on your current converter. There is a locking TH400 being made but I don't know how much power it will take and the price is pretty serious. I think it is precision, Jack Cotton handles them. I talked to Jack about one before I put a switch pitch in mine to save money. I did only break one switch pitch in three years and was serviced well when it did break. I am guessing you are 100-150 HP and torque more than I was, I dynoed 814hp 826 torque and found a bit more power later figuring aprox 900-900 at the end.

Buicks4Speed

11-19-2002, 02:53 AM

I'd LOVE to have a Neil Chance converter :Brow: but I've got to see what I can do with Art Carr since He's already got my money. It is a "full tight" 9" converter and it won't be going back in my car. Hopefully we can work something out to get a 10" in exchange. How come you try to go forward and buy something better and it turns into a big mess!:af: All I can say is they must have gone to a different core with the billet plate since my last 9" was at least 800 rpm tighter than this one. All well. :Do No: :af:

Buicks4Speed

11-25-2002, 07:24 AM

Art Carr is replacing my 9" with a 10". It was possibly going to be here Fri so I could make it to the track Sun and try it out but, Of Coarse, the weather was perfect so, of coarse, it didn't show up. :af: And I work next weekend.

Buick

12-04-2002, 10:29 PM

Here's an interesting question, and I'm sure there's a reasonable explaination. In general smaller diameter convertors are higher stall. If that's the case, why wouldn't or couldn't a convertor vendor build a larger diameter bullet-proof race convertor as an additional way to get lower stall for the customer???:puzzled:

Buicks4Speed

12-05-2002, 08:52 PM

An efficient small converter will flash stall easier and lock up just as tight at higher rpm plus its less rotational weight. There so many variables that change how a converter will stall, it is hard to determine exactly what you need in size or stall. A 1000 hp small block will not take the same converter a 1000hp big block. It all depends on what rpm you make your power at , plus weight, gearing, tire size, ect. In my case they just underestimated the the mass amount of low end torque of a Buick on nitrous. Sure my 9" converter eventually tightened up at 6500 but it was all about done by then. Hopefully this weekend I'll get to try out the new competetion 10" I got. I'm crossing my fingers.

StrokedBuick

12-06-2002, 05:04 PM

What backspacing and size rims do you run to have those 10.5's?

did you have to do any modifications to fit them inside the wheels wells?

Buicks4Speed

12-06-2002, 08:12 PM

I run a 10" rim with a 5.5" backspacing running a 29.5x10.5 M/T. The top wheel well lip is trimmed and the inner wheel well is pounded as needed for clearance. The 28x10.5 M/T fit really easy but I opted for the 29.5 (actually 30") instead of a gear change but the 28s' still cut a 1.32 60ft. I also had a 29.5x10.5W but that was pretty TIGHT being it was a 11.2" wide tire.:shock:

StrokedBuick

12-06-2002, 08:30 PM

Do you have a stock width rear?? or is it narrowed?

Buicks4Speed

12-06-2002, 10:35 PM

Its About 62" wide 9"Ford which is the same as stock or very close. I measured from axle to axle with the discs on. I was laying under my car by myself and thats why I say "about 62". I bought from Bob G. and it was set up to match a stock to work with the wheel setup he was running with a stock rear. :TU: Cool?

StrokedBuick

12-07-2002, 04:51 PM

Thanks for your help. :TU:

Earick Racing

12-14-2002, 11:10 PM

Rick, the advertised 9” converter that you mentioned is rated at 600+ ft-lbs. We have a billet race converter series that allows for 750+ ft-lbs. This converter is indestructible for the quick 8, and top sportsman classes. Our top dragster customers are very satisfied with our product also. We were the first to go 200 MPH with an automatic years ago. We were the innovators who developed the 9” converter for performance and all out racing applications successfully. I would be glad to help you attain your performance objectives.

Buicks4Speed

12-15-2002, 04:14 PM

Thanks Earick Racing for your input, I'm keeping you in mind. I've got a tight 10" back from Art Carr in place of my old 9" and I wish I knew where I was at. I took it to the same track twice these past two weeks and nothing but JUNK! I didn't make one pass where it actually hooked.:af: I had a best of 5.98 and that was still smoking them off the line. There was a BIG tire Chevelle @2500 lbs running 5.70's that had a hard time hooking. The converter is definitely tighter but I won't know how tight until I get it to a half decent track. I'm worried because it "feels" like it hits pretty hard and the motor is definitely making awsome torque on nitrous between 4000-5000. With the converter more in the power instead of past it, the torque is going to be tuff to hook. We'll see. I can try retarding the cam to shift the power up but what to do without a good base line? :af: :Do No:

Buicks4Speed

12-25-2002, 08:30 PM

I took my 108 l/c cam and move it from a 108 intake c/l to a 112 intake c/l. It was already installed 4 degrees retarded and now its 8!:blast: Talk about Dumb and Dumber! Hopefully I've softened up the bottom end enough to get it to hook, but will it go faster?
When I first built the car, I can't say I ever imagined running a powerglide not to mention having too much that I couldn't even manage it. Is that good or bad? It is said "make all the power you can then worry about making it stick". I just need to compile a little more info before I grind another solid roller. Roller cams aren't cheap enough to just keep trying another grind. 455's don't last forever either so it all needs to start working soon!
The converter is tight but the torque is strong in this one! So may the "force be with me?" Now that the converter is not slipping past the power, I need to make the power in the right spot which means moving the power curve up. Can anyone rub there cystal ball and give me that magic formula?:puzzled:

Buicks4Speed

01-01-2003, 09:40 PM

That didn't work either.:af: the motor ran realy ruff-like crap! It didn't like 112 intake centerline. The nitrous didn't seem to care, it felt as strong as ever. Just for the fact of how the motor ran, I would never leave it at the 112 CL. The lobe seperation angle of the cam would have to be at 112 for me to go with the 112 again.

I'm now working on getting a Nitrous specific grind cam. Going to a 278/292 roller? Or something big on 114 L/C. To put the power in a more reasonable operating range that won't be so violent off the line.

Adam Whitman

01-02-2003, 07:09 AM

I'm still readin', so keep the updates coming. I think I'll get more serious about maaking the juice work on my car this year since the other gremlins seem to be getting handled (knock on wood).

Buicks4Speed

01-02-2003, 05:20 PM

You wouldn't believe how much I tried to kill the bottom end to make things work. I've got the MSD Digital 7 Programmable so I can change timing curves, launch rpm, nitrous rpm engagement, make a launch retard curve, and of course suspension adjustments.
It came down to where I got the nitrous mixture / timing dialed in and the midrange power went through the roof. I could have richened it up to KILL some of the power but I didn't have it in me. My best mph is 123 in the 1/8 mi so the horsepower isn't there to get a much better et than what I've been running. The cam is a "motor" cam and doesn't make the power WITH Nitrous in the right rpm range to use it. If I had a big tire car it would be different but I'm dealing with 10.5 tire car and the power has to be in the right spot to work with the rest of the combination.
My new roller blank showed up today, so now all I have to do is get it ground. Right now, I'm thinking of having Scotty Guadagno (PG Performance) getting it ground for me. He works at Pat Musi Racing and has lots of experience with nitrous and big HP Buick engines. He told me that he had plenty of huge roller cams that would work great with nitrous but they all started at .750 lift and went up from there. Thats more lift than I want since I don't want to deal with the valve spring maintence and lifter bore fatigue.

More to follow.................................... :stmad: :stmad: :stmad:

464CID

01-08-2003, 06:52 PM

Rick,

Just logged onto V8Buick for the first time and had to sign up. Went right to the nitrous converter page. I felt compelled to tell you about another little-known converter company that can help Buick racers who are making big power and torque. Pro Torque Custom Torque Converters (www.protorque.com) is building converters for the guys running the Englishtown Quick 8. The Ferrari Bros have a 3400 pound Chevelle that runs 7.52 @ 179 mph. Have run the same Pro Torque converter for two seasons and have won the championship in 2001 and 2002. Five of the top 8 cars run this same converter. Autometer dataloggers show that the converter has a 98 to 100 percent coupling efficiency down track. It's warranteed against breakage for one year and carries a 90-day money-back guarantee. I know that you don't want to buy another converter, but give Joe Rivera a call, 630 218-8700-- He might work with you. I hope this post saves other Buick racers some potential converter grief too.

Len Emanuelson

Buicks4Speed

01-08-2003, 09:23 PM

Thanks, I'll check them out. Its either them or a Neil Chance converter.

Buicks4Speed

01-15-2003, 09:49 PM

I get to go away to Kuwait for a year and work on aircraft to hopefully make some good Buick money. So I wont get to make any more updates on my GS until I get back. Wish me luck. :blast:

11SecondGS

01-15-2003, 10:06 PM

I have been reading your posts indepth, I am sure going to miss them.

Alright, make us proud!

Adam Whitman

01-16-2003, 06:19 AM

Salute!, Rick. Give a nice personal "Hi" to all those deserving one.

cray1801

01-16-2003, 10:20 AM

Awwh, man... have a good trip. I promice when you get back my ride and I will meet you at the Fayetteville track!

Buicks4Speed

07-26-2003, 03:48 PM

Am I back? NO, unfortunately not. But I do have access to a computer so I'll be poking around and maybe stiring "the Pot" a bit here and there. :moonu: Its hard staying motivated at times, especially with a Buick so I'm here to help where I can and keep myself on track.
As for my Juice Motor? It is getting a cam to fit the application. The "small" 108 l/c cam is not good for large amounts of nitrous, say over 200hp in my case. It doesn't use it efficiently and makes power in the wrong areas of the power band and limits the amount the motor will take in. There is only a certain amount of power needed to launch the car and get a good 60 ft, the rest of the race is HP. Most guys running mid 9's go through the traps well past there shift points. SO...... using nitrous to get the car out of the hole and a good HP Cam to make power in the upper rpms = a faster combination. Plus I can take away a little gear in the rear and run a more efficient converter which will give more mph at the same rpm in the 1/4.
Right now My converter is "hitting" around 4500-4800 on nitrous. Which is about the best I can ask for. It would be better if it would stall at 3200 on Nitrous with the setup I have right now but the conveter would be to tight work on motor- at all. the motor would probably die when I put it in gear and the motor would never be able to stall the converter up against the trans brake. It would be like putting a stock converter in a race car.
I'm hoping a larger duration cam with wider/more efficient lobe centers will make everthing work! Plus I want to be able to use more Nitrous in high gear. Right now the motor wont run any faster on a 400hp than a 200hp shot. Theres 400hp worth of Nitrous there, its just either going out the exhaust pipe being over scavenged or bottling up in the intake substituting the air that should be coming through the carb. The bigger cam should keep the motor from hitting the converter SO HARD!
Nitrous key is in the mixture! THat became very obvious especially at lower rpms- where it became the biggest problem. And now i'm working at making use of that power, it was just more than I was set up to deal with so now I'm changing things. I could spend $1800 dollars on a Neil Chance converter which seems to one of the best out there, but I know the cam is still going to be wrong for what I'm doing. So first the cam then I'll go back to the converter if it is still a problem. As always more to follow...:Brow:

cray1801

07-26-2003, 09:59 PM

I thought I was seeing things when I looked under my user cp and the "subscribed threads" showed Buicks4Speed as the "thread starter" and Buicks4Speed as "last post"! Hope things are going well for you.

I need to get some tuning done on my ride now that the 455 is hiding inside (it does tell on itself while running :Brow: ). I've been so involved with getting the house ready for the market I've not spent any time with the car in the last month.

Maybe you notice the background in my avatar, this was my only trip to the strip so far. Third run was fun (sideways past the 1/8th mile mark and had to get out of it) for the spectators. Really need to work on the suspension, and get some soft tires. The only full runs were at a really low shift point (5000 rpm's) resulting in a 13.20 at 105 and change. It was good enough to beat the Z06 in the next lane that ran a 13.32 :beer. The first (only) run with the correct shift point (~6000 rpm) resulted in a broken rocker shaft :rolleyes:, still ran a 13.4 with a 92 mph trap (got out of it 3/4 track).

There was a Chevelle there that was running 12.8, I've got my eye on him this fall :Brow:

Buicks4Speed

07-27-2003, 03:03 PM

low 12's no problem! BUT THEN WHAT? Maybe that ATI ProCharger or JUICE? I used those replacement stamp steel rockers from TA on that skylark I built Rob and had it going 11.70's in the summer heat shifting at 5800. The rocker set has been holding up great!. Maybe you need a new lucky rabbits foot? The cam was a COMP 230/244 .501/.501 112 l/c in his car. I just got rid of a good set of 28x10.5 M/T for $150. They would have worked great for you. :Brow: If I was back I could have probably gotten you a pair of good used slicks cheep. 10.5 tire racers change there tires ever couple of races with good tread on them still. I went through 3 sets just keeping up with rules.

GSX

07-28-2003, 09:03 PM

464CID said:Rick,

Just logged onto V8Buick for the first time and had to sign up. Went right to the nitrous converter page. I felt compelled to tell you about another little-known converter company that can help Buick racers who are making big power and torque. Pro Torque Custom Torque Converters (www.protorque.com) is building converters for the guys running the Englishtown Quick 8. The Ferrari Bros have a 3400 pound Chevelle that runs 7.52 @ 179 mph. Have run the same Pro Torque converter for two seasons and have won the championship in 2001 and 2002. Five of the top 8 cars run this same converter. Autometer dataloggers show that the converter has a 98 to 100 percent coupling efficiency down track. It's warranteed against breakage for one year and carries a 90-day money-back guarantee. I know that you don't want to buy another converter, but give Joe Rivera a call, 630 218-8700-- He might work with you. I hope this post saves other Buick racers some potential converter grief too.

Len Emanuelson

Len , Area code is 631 218-8700 :)

Buicks4Speed

07-29-2003, 06:45 PM

I looked at there web site..... not much FOR ME there. It generally dealt with stock and entry level Racing stuff around 500-600 hp and that was under there race converter section. I guess I wiil have to call to get a better idea of what they have for high HP/Nitrous applications. Its not the HP thats giving me problems it the torque and the low rpm range. Most high HP Chevys turn up to 7500rpm+ which is a big difference when it comes to converter setup. But I am not a converter guy so I just keep calling collecting info. Thanks guys for all the input! :TU:

GS Kubisch

08-09-2003, 10:05 AM

Rick
Check out www.fbperformance.com
I just read an article about a variable stall valve body they're using in some Nitrous/Supercharged 7 sec cars.
This might be excactly what you need.

Buicks4Speed

08-10-2003, 06:18 AM

I've talked to some people that have used it and it seems to work pretty good. Just like the stall on a converter though, it varies according to application. I just need a converter tight enough to use it on. i might just go to a lock up or Neil Chance. A Neil Chance with a FB variable stall is what I'm looking at right now. I need to see how the car works with a nitrous cam first. More to follow.:stmad: :stmad: :stmad: How long before you try a little NITROUS????

Buicks4Speed

02-19-2004, 04:46 AM

OK heres a little something to add/think about. You tend to hear going up in cam size and going to wider lobe seperation with nitrous when dealing with race applications. along with aighter converter. A main reason for this is because how the math works out. Think about......What is Horsepower? it is torque multipled by rpm. Right? So what is a 200 hp shot of nitrous at 3000 rpm? 350 ft lbs of torque, and sometime more. Get the picture. In a curtain sense you can only make use of so much torque in the lower rpm ranges so you want to look at your combination and what your rpm range is down the track. You should try and change your converter, cam, and/or gearing to make a nitrous combination work to its potential if you want your fastest times to be on nitrous. THe cam and converter are the hardest thing to get to work correctly since its not an exact sience and there are alot of variables. Tire size, rpm range, vehicle weight, converter, amount of nitrous; all changes the combination. I hope this helps..... :TU:

texas ranger

02-21-2004, 09:08 PM

Rick, along the same lines I' ve been researching converters and everybody I've talk to BTE ,Protorque,PTC,Coan and Trans King.
tell me to go with a converter with a steel stator. looking back at your post on your converter It looks like yours doesn't have a steel stator. And if it does could I get by with a quality converter without one.
By the way how many 9 second mid to low 10 second buicks with trans brake or nitrous without a steel stator converter out there. please share your set ups and save me from making a costly mistake.

Buicks4Speed

02-22-2004, 12:23 PM

I don't run a steel stator in My Buick and I never had a problem with any of my converters other than the stall being incorrect. I can't say where the limit is. I dont think you need a steel stator converter unless you plan on running 8's. Running 10's is easy on spray even on a street setup. 9's aren't too far out of reach but low 9's and 8's is where it starts getting interesting. What is the race weight of your car? That makes a big difference. I would definitely go with a 10" unless your under 3000 lbs. 10" are more affordable and will more likely stay within a Buicks rpm range without over stalling but they "hit" a little harder which can make it a bit tricky to launch on a small tire. You can get them set up to be a soft hit converter for nitrous which is the way to go. ATI and Coan are very knowledgable on setting up converters and would probably be a good place to start.

stagetwo65

02-22-2004, 01:48 PM

I've gotten three Coan convertors over the years, and they are top shelf. All three have been steel stator. Two were 8-inch versions and my latest one is a 9-inch. Nothing but good feedback from my end.

texas ranger

02-22-2004, 07:14 PM

Thanks, Rick I was thinking that I could get away without one I think all the companys are trying to get me to over build so that I wouldn't have to worry about it. But as Doug put it, The next step is top shelf also top shelf money.
I was thinking of going with a 9.5 billet converter shouldn't be much difference from the 10 inch just more efficient. My car is 3450
with me in it. will be knocking of another 150 to 200 lbs shortly.
Doug thanks for your input with your car you need that steel stator. I was looking back over some of my Torque tech, torque sheet articles I will be at the level you were some ten plus years ago.
If I'm lucky.

Buicks4Speed

02-23-2004, 06:32 AM

I can't see any down sides to a steel stator other than cost. But stall can be adjusted by a stator change and if you spend alot before you know the "perfect" set point on your converter I'm sure an aluminum stator is cheeper to change and you can go to a steel stator later. Talk it over with who ever you decide to have to build your converter and see what they have to say.

texas ranger

02-23-2004, 10:10 PM

Thanks Rick never looked at it from that angle. makes a lot of since.

Buicks4Speed

07-15-2004, 05:53 PM

Ok, It's someone else turn to do a little trial and error. I can't be the only one spraying a fast Buick around here?
I can't believe I'm the fastest 10.5 tire nitrous'd Buick around???:Brow: If I'm not, this is a forum and your suppose to post that stuff....Its too expensive to learn all this stuff by myself. It would be different if we were all running in a Buick Race class against each other then I would have to put out a bunch of B.S. to slow you guys down. :laugh:

For all you anti-nitrous guys I will have to say, I have not had one motor related failure from nitrous. Even when i ran it on a stock bottom end and fel pro's.
The Main Problems I've seen with nitrous motor failures:

#1 *Not accepting the limitations of how much a given combination will use/take. whether it be a 150HP shot or 300, street motor or race motor. If it stop's going faster with more, than THATS YOU SIGN-STOP! There is a given airflow limitation to each combination that will limit the amount of nitrous the motor will use effectively. A GENERAL RULE OF THUMB: naturally aspirated cams are only good for @125-200HP shot. If you want to go faster, more isn't the answer. You need to adjust your combination and cam to accept it. Unless you like fireballs and carnage. Its the imbalance of airflow that causes the problem not so much the HP.

* Not taking out any/enough timing. Biggest problem with over 10.0 comp on street motors and 12.5 on race motors. Lower comp on either is alot more forgiving. The more cranking compression a motor has the more attention you need to pay to timing requirements. Nitrous loves low compression motors!

* No fuel pressure safety switches. Good fuel system or not, things go wrong. Whether is not enough or pressure falls off from a jetting increase or you have a dedicated fuel system and the pump stops working for whatever reason.

Nitrous is good,........People are bad.:spank:

cray1801

07-15-2004, 06:55 PM

Rick, good to see you posting again, are you home? Anyway... since I've moved (late January) and now I've finally received the cash from the old house sale (2 weeks ago), I need to consider my next Skylark projects for my happy 4000 mile 462, before all the $$"s goes to furniture.

The last time I went to the track was last ~Nov. to Farmington with Jim L. When I saw you last, I was running the 350 at Fayetteville, I was running 14.2's now I'm in the 12.70/8.10 range on street radials with the 455.

Planned upgrades (next month or so), are MSD 6AL, poly bushings front and back, and a more accurate than stock tach., after that.... maybe some laughing (gas). I'm running the SP-1 and Q-jet on a 10.4:1 C.R., TA-413 motor with Hypers. The dynamic compression is lower than I expected due to the late IVC event with the 413 so detionation has not been a problem with ~25 initial and 34 max. timing.

As far as fuel system I've gone electric with an Aeromotive unit, 3/8" in with a 5/16 return line regulated to ~6.5 psi at the inner fender, I'm also using a high flow FRAM canister filter at the tank and stock filter at the re-worked 800 cfm Q-Jet. What would be a good next step?

bobc455

07-15-2004, 07:28 PM

Couldn't agree more, Rick.

I'm nowhere near your level of speed, but I do have a 2-stage system (presently at 100+150HP, jettable to 150+300HP). I'm probably about 450HP wihtout the bottle. I've been using it for about ten years.

You do have to build the engine to the HP level- if you are gonna make 750, then you have to have internal components strong enough for 750HP whether it from a big cam & heads, nitrous, a turbo or a blower (with slight variations).

In addition to the items you mention, you have to have quality components (solenoids, etc.) and they have to stay in good shape. A leaking solenoid can hurt a motor too.

Frankly, I don't understand why more people (street or strip) don't run it. Especially us street folks- you can build a fairly tame motor, and make "bananas" horsepower with the push of a button. Ever been at a stoplight next to a Mustang? After you blow him away so bad that he doesn't know what happened, you'll see why it's called laughing gas.

Same for a serious racecar- you can certainly get plenty of HP out of a motor, but your cam can only get so big and your heads can only flow so much. Eventually you will need a power booster (blower, turbo, nitrous, whatever) (yes, I realize that we may be exceeding the capability of the block at this point). And nitrous is certainly the one I would recommend. (Not to mention, it can be done really stealthy).

Unlike you, I admit I have ruined motors- twice. But, like you said, it was utter carelessness on my part- none of the components failed, but the user did. Pure stupidity. As long as you use half of your brain, you will have no problems.

-Bob Cunningham

Adam Whitman

07-15-2004, 08:36 PM

hey guys,
I'm having a problem with my low pressure cut-out switch. When I hit the juice, the initial pressure drop creates a momentary cut-out of the engine. It creates an on-off cycle that sounds like I have a progressive controller running the system.

I switched to a return-style regulator with no or only slightly better results. The rest of the system has it's own tank and a holley red pump.

Also, it appears I'm getting air from the fuel pump someplace; I can see it bubbling up from the return line in the fuel cell.. Anybody ever have this happen? The best explanation I can think of is the pump seal is allowing the pump to suck air? It seems worse as I turn the fuel pressure up.

Also, How far below the fule pressure of 5 psi should I set the cut-out?

Buicks4Speed

07-16-2004, 04:00 AM

Craig,
Not back yet. Electric fan, 950HP Holley. Ignition, buy the MSD multi function box. It plugs right into any MSD 6 series box. Going to a muti function box will save you alot of money in the future and you can tune your timing curve to match. Its everything you need in one box.
What was your cranking compression when you checked it? If it was low thats a good thing if your looking at nitrous. That cam your running is a little small for a BBB and builds cylinder pressure fast at a low rpm with nitrous which is hard on head gaskets. If you have close or over 200 you need to be careful. YOu can keep your street manners and still go bigger on the cam. Or with the multifunction box you can just take out a little extra timing between 3000-4500 to fix it.

Adam,
You cut off switch should be fine if its adjusted to 5 psi. The Holley red pump is preset a 7 psi which I feel is your problem, it needs to be at least 9 depending where the pump and fuel cell are. I know they make a replacement high pressure spring for the Holley Blue but I'm not sure about the Red. Its cheep and they sell it in the Summit catalog. The Red pump may have the volume but it doesn't have the pressure to overcome the initial surge when the solenoid opens.
Where do you have your dedicated system at? Up front or in the rear. It makes a big difference how much fuel pressure you need.
Where do you have the safety switch mounted? IT should be mounted on the regulator or "T" 'd off the line going to the solenoid. It can give you surging problems if you mount it directly at the sloenoid. Your safety switch is doing its job. :TU:
Let me know.....

bobc455

07-16-2004, 04:50 AM

Adam,

The blue pump will fit right in place of the red pump. That should be able to hold pressure much better than the red pump.

The pressure of your fuel system depends on your manufacturer- different nitrous suppliers want different pressures to go with their system. It is very important, since when you open the solenoid there is an instantaenous pressure drop, which drops further than it will be under steady-state conditions.

Do you know what "water hammer" is in your house (when you turn off a faucet and the pipes bang because of the pressure pulse)? You are seeing the opposite affect. That is why I don't ever purge my nitrous line- I like the nitrous flow to be a bit low at first, so the fuel pressure stabilizes and I don't have a quick lean condition (it only takes a single lean combustion cycle to break a piston).

Also remember that placement of your regulator should be as far forward in the car as possible- during hard acceleration, the pressure at the rear of the car is higher than the pressure at the front. The pressure difference is small, but not insignificant. Therefore the 7PSI from the red pump might not be enough to be able to sustain good pressure when you blast the solenoid open.

Also, consider a progressive controller (but use solenoids designed to be pulsed, not these crap ones that are standard on most systems).

On a return-style regulator, remember that the gasoline is flowing through the regulator and being heated. Some components of gasoline (which is a mixture of about 175 different ingredients) start to boil about 120 - 140 degrees, so if the fuel is being heated during it's journey to the engine and back, some components might start to boil. That's no problem, though, because once it goes back in the "cool" fuel cell, it will all recondense and re-equillibrate to normal gasoline.

If you think that this is a problem, Summit sells a fuel line cooler that can help reduce the fuel temp on the way back from the engine to the fuel cell. Look up Flex-a-lite's P/N 4136 (I think this will work- http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FLX-4136&N=120304043)

I'm not promising these are all the correct answers, just food for thought.

-Bob Cunningham

Buicks4Speed

07-16-2004, 10:43 AM

A red Holley pump only flows 23 gph at 6 psi. There's no upgrade spring for it to boost the pressure. A Blue or black pump would work. A blue pump flows almost 100 gph at 6 psi. Big difference for only $10. You should have went BLUE.:spank: THere are other pumps to choose from but this is just for quick reference.

Adam Whitman

07-16-2004, 11:30 AM

I think maybe Rick got the answer right out of the chute. The hobbs switch is mounted just before the solenoid. Should I move it to one of the spare ports in the regulator?

The system is a Nitrous Works and the recommended pressure is 5 PSI. The regulator is a Mallory.

The fuel cell is mounted up front, fed with 1/2" line to the pump and 3/8 for everything else. The pressure regulating spring in the pump has been shimmed tight. I have a Mallory pump I might rebuild and install, although that means building new brackets and all that again.

I had/have a progressive controller. It crapped out on me about the 3rd time I used it. The programming side went goofy (I didn't wire it wrong and burn up the amplifier). Because I've had it a couple years, Holley so far doesn't seem to interested in doing anything about it, even though it's only been used a couple times. I sent it to them, and will report to the BB and anyone else I know how they deal with it. I have a feeling I have bought my last Holley product, but maybe they'll work with me on it.

As for fuel temp, I don't think it's a problem. The same problem exists hot or cold.

Adam Whitman

07-16-2004, 11:31 AM

I had the red, so that's why I went with it. I didn't cheap out this time, honest!

bobc455

07-16-2004, 11:56 AM

Adam Whitman said:
As for fuel temp, I don't think it's a problem. The same problem exists hot or cold.

Well since the pressure in the fuel line is higher than atmospheric pressure, if there is a leak then the fuel will flow out (on to the ground or something). Air won't flow from a low pressure to a higher pressure.

I still suspect you are seeing something else, not air.

Also, in theory, remember that if you are supposed to run 5 PSI and your switch is set to 5 PSI, then as soon as you hit 4.999 PSI it will shut off and wreak havok. I might try setting that for 4.75 PSI or something- it should still have sufficient fuel delivery to prevent damage, but won't go on-off-on-off. Just a thought.

My preference is to have the switch in the same line as the fuel going to the solenoid- that way you know the pressure is being measured where the fuel is going to the engine, and there is no chance of an incorrect reading. If you "T" off the line to the solenoid, like Rick suggests, that is probably ideal.

-Bob C.

Adam Whitman

07-16-2004, 12:08 PM

Bob,

I've set the switch as low as 4 PSI.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I have one of those ford-type screw-in filters (1/8" NPT x 5/16" inverted flare) right before the solenoid. Maybe it is too restrictive, although one would think if it would supply a 302 then it would be enough for at least the 75 HP shot I'm giving it now.

As for air in the pump, a pump (at least an industrial water pump) can suck air while pumping. remember there is a low pressure created on the suction side of the pump. I've never seen this with a fuel pump, but then again I've never looked. The other thing that gave me this idea is that it appears to be leaking fuel around the shaft at some, but not other pressure settings.

Also, the switch is teed off of the solenoid feed, currently after the fuel filter mentioned above, right before the solenoid. My thinking being exactly what you mentioned.

Buicks4Speed

07-16-2004, 02:01 PM

Ok, I'll forgive you on the Red pump thing. I'm sure you meant well but I wouldn't recommend droppin the pressure switch down to 4. On the 75 shot it pretty hard to hurt things but I would make a habit of trouble-shooting things that way.

With your fuel cell up front, that helps things alot. That is the best way to configure it. Mounting the safety switch to the open port will work fine and should keep it from surging. If you need 5 psi, set the switch for 4 3/4.

Get that filter away from the solenoid! Put a larger filter just before or after the pump. You don't want any restrictions between the regulator and the plate. The fuel wont respond fast enough.

Shimming the pressure spring and going to a bypass regulator was a good idea. It might just work. Start with a better filter in a different spot and moving the switch.

That 75 shot won't keep you happy for long. THe first car to beat you by a fender will fix that. :rant: :TU:

Adam Whitman

07-17-2004, 10:41 AM

I had up to 275 Hp jets but then had some back-firing as you might remember. This was before I bought that compucar plate from you that wouldn't allow things to fit under my hood :mad: It'll have plenty of room under the Olds hood though :) .

The bigger jets are much more rewarding...

Anyway, OK on the filter. I blew through it and it seemed a bit restrictive. I have already installed a 3/8 filter before the regulator. The diagram that came with the regulator recommended both filters, so that's what I went with, but I'll take your word over theirs and ditch the little one. It helps explain the problem.

I'll also re-set the hobbs switch.

Bob and Rick, thanks for the help, and I'll update you when I get the changes made.

bobc455

07-17-2004, 12:24 PM

I'm glad you are relocating that filter- if you have 5 PSI from the regulator, that will be lower after you go through a filter. The regulator should be the last thing before the solenoid (except the "T", which will be in parallel and won't cause a pressure drop).

I think as long you have a filter on the outlet of the pump, that will be sufficient.

Let us know what happens.

By the way, I have recently acquired a 350-2 in a Sportwagon, I am considering putting a small nitrous shot (50-75 HP?) on that. The nitrous should be able to compensate for the small carb, especially at higher RPM.

-Bob C.

Buicks4Speed

07-18-2004, 05:30 AM

Don't count on not needing more carb with nitrous. Nitrous tends to increase the volumetric efficiency of a motor putting a high cfm demand on the carb. I've seen dynos and runs at the track where a smaller carb slowed down a nitrous car. Nitrous will definitely pick it up but don't expect more rpm. :Smarty:

Adam Whitman

08-15-2004, 05:05 PM

Update on my setup. I moved the hobbs switch and trashed the ford filter from my solenoid. The system works great. I dusted off a friend's 740 hp blown dualie (don't ask me why, but he bugged me to race) and really gave him a show when I hit the juice at the top of second while in front of him. Hoosier quick-times won't hold even a 125 hp shot at ~60 mph. He now says "wait until I get my other pulley and nitrous hooked up." I think I'll be seeing what a 454 looks like spread all over the pavement when it happens.

I've got the right fuel pressure and it's just clean hard-pulling power. I'm almost afraid to try the 175 hp jets. Looks like it's about time for some ET streets too. hee hee, what a rush! You don't have to inhale the stuff to make you giggle, that's for sure.

Oh yeah, the oil turned black right after. I can think of 2-things; too much blow-by, and blowing all the carbon off of the pistons, or both.

Thanks again Rick & Bob!

myriviera

08-15-2004, 08:08 PM

Man I have loved this thread.....Its an education....Good luck with your ride Adam....

Adam Whitman

08-15-2004, 10:01 PM

Forgot to mention, I'm running a 9x11 converter (YANK Converters) which stalls at about 3800. I think it may need tightened if I start to use the juice regularly.

Buicks4Speed

08-16-2004, 08:44 AM

I found this page that deals with reading plugs and it has pictures to go by. It saves me alot of typing. :TU:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428/Readplugs.html
I would post it if I didn't think it was good S%@#!

Adam Whitman

08-16-2004, 03:01 PM

Plugs are clean, however it has a bit of a sloppy idle with the hemi killer cam. I assume the overlap contributes to carbon buildup as well as being a little rich to help smooth out the idle...

using that great link, I'd say my UR-6's are very close for daily use and I might be able to lean it out a bit (I haven't shut down correctly to do a proper plug reading.)

Buicks4Speed

02-18-2005, 05:13 PM

Here are the specs of my "Nitrous" cam.
256/278 .773"/.714" (w/1.7 rockers)112 LC. :shock: Power band 4800/5200-7000/7200-shift point. installed at a 107 ICL. Recommended stall @5000 on the nitrous. This cam will get the bolt-in TA lifter girdle instead of the bonded in plates. Plus the NEW Schubeck Roller-X lifters.

Not what I would have picked for a cam but after talking to Jay Allan of Cam Innovation he changed my mind. He's not your everyday "Cam Guy", he's more of a cam design engineer. I initially told him if it wasn't bigger(more duration) than what I was currently running, I didn't even want him to touch my cam blank. He is extremely intelligent and runs a lot of numbers to get the cam figures he wanted me to run. After he expained to me the things I needed to know I had him grind my cam. Not that the "Big" Azz Nitrous cam wouldn't have worked but just not as good as this one should. I wont say YET that this is the way to go but I wouldn't have spent the money I did if i didn't believe it will. It cost a good bit more to have a cam designed for your motor over just picking some numbers and having them ground to a stick.

If you think my cam has "stupid" fast ramp rates, I have seen #'s to a turbo Ford SB with 248degrees w/ .785" lift(.462" lift at the lobe) 1.7 rockers. :jd: Ford's do have a much bigger base circle to work off of.

I actually have 2 cams that were ground for my motor. The other is a low lift cam: 262/278, .714/.678" 112LC. This was a small core that didn't have enough material on it to grind what I initially was suppose to get so Jay had to redesign a new cam profile. I ended up buying another "soft" blank to get the core I needed/wanted. I did have to pay extra to get it heat treated.-Twice!After it was ground to get it to the Rockwell hardness needed to keep it from failing or twisting. I was told my cam was one hard Moe-Fo.... TA doesn't sell the "soft" blanks any cheeper than a heat treated one. Go Figure..... :Do No: :af: But it is heat treated After it is ground which is better than a cam that is heat treated Before it is ground which makes mine much stronger. Also, my old cam obviously wasn't heat treated good enough/deep enough since the back lobe on my old cam started "flaking"-"Breaking up" on the top of the lobe. I had noticed the roller was "tracking" on the lift portion of the lobe on the last take down of the motor. I chose to run it anyways and now it is broke thru the top hard layer of the cam. At least I didn't sell it before it failed.

If all goes as well, I will have my 55mm cam for the new block ground on the same concept except a little more insane since it will be based on a 55mm core. :Brow:

D-Con

02-18-2005, 11:20 PM

How did you arrive at the 107 intake centerline?

I dialed my 308s in at 112 based on my dynomation software, (not that it is necessarily right). I thought maybe it would like being retarded more than the average 455 because of the 494 cubes and relatively small heads. :Do No:

But that's just a guess...

Buicks4Speed

02-19-2005, 12:12 AM

Jay Allan had the information all on the cam card/build sheet. It also had a cam doctor run on prior to it being shipped giving me .006, .050, .200" duration numbers. The 107 ICL is the cam recommend installed ICL. Most "nitrous" and some "boost" cams use excessive exhaust duration to help evacuate the cylinder better. Nitrous specifically has a faster burn rate due to the increased oxygen content in the chamber. As a result of the faster combustion burn, you have to retard the ignition timing, but also complete the burn process sooner which allows you to open the exhaust valve sooner without a power penilty. So by taking a cam that is ideal on motor and using it as a baseline, you add most of the duration to the opening side of the exhaust. What this does is, with everything staying the same, is shift the exhaust centerline giving you a wider lobe seperation angle. Let say you add 10 degrees to the opening side of the exhaust on a 108 LC cam. This now makes the cam a 110.5 LC cam. So to keep the same ICL as before you would have to advance the cam 2.5 degrees. For example Take a 260/260 @.050 with 108 LC install straight up with a 108 ICL Add 10 degrees to the open side of the exhaust to make the Cam a 260/270. Now since 10 was added to the opening it only shift the exhaust centerline half the amount which would be 5 degrees so the exhaust now has a 113 centerline. Now take the 108 ICL with the 113 ECL, this gives you a cam with a 110.5 LC advance 2.5 degrees. Get it? This is just a baseline "rule of thumb".

To get the added power in the range your looking to use it in, some add duration to the cam ,some add lift, some widen the LC, some you a combination of all or some. It depends on the motor combination, its limits, and air limitation.

I don't think retarding your cam beyond 108 is a good way to go. If you want to keep the same duration then widen the LC to get more rpm out of it. Retarding the cam just causes it to loose power across the board.

nitrousfish

02-19-2005, 12:29 AM

Its nutty but the 210S Ive got in mine now runs way better on n2o than my 308s ever did..only did it cuz I killed the 308s at Reynolds when I ate the motor burpin it with the gas after the burnout..didnt have the timing taken out and it was set on kill (125s in bigshot with super bigshot noid)...call me crazy ..go ahead :beer fish

D-Con

02-19-2005, 10:29 AM

Aw geez, another question I should have asked earlier. Now I have to decide whether to pull the front cover off again or not! :rant: JW told me he pretty much sticks to a 108 ICL, I shoulda listened...

Nitrousfish: I wonder if the 308s was too much for your heads?

Buicks4Speed

02-19-2005, 09:55 PM

Nitrousfish: I wonder if the 308s was too much for your heads?

No, it's was from try to stuff 15lbs. of crap in a 5lb. bag. :Dou:
I believe the 125jet is for 400HP shot of nitrous.
Yes the 308 is very wrong for a 400hp shot w/iron heads. To get away with a 400Hp shot of nitrous with iron heads, in my opinion, you would need 9.0-8.5 comp, 230/255 or 235/265 cam, 114 LC advanced 6-8degrees. Everything staying together, this would put a 350hp motor in the 700+ Hp range on nitrous. At minimum, you would need a TA single plane and headers plus a fuel system to keep up. The best way would be to put a 1 gal fuel cell up front for the nitrous and run a Holley Blue pump and regulator.

Don't plan on much rpm past 5200-5500. An 11" nitrous converter or even a very tight 10" would be plenty. A window switch would also be a must as a big shot at low rpm would tear the ring lands off the pistons. I wouldn't engage the system below 2000-2500. A two stage would be best. :blast: :eek2: .