Thanks Tom! I called up the guys with the Torque Plate in Ca. 472.00 Plate 72.00 Shipping The Out of Round / Taper looks to be a little more "tolerable" when presented with that cost, up front :eek2: I doubt theres a big market for me to "rent" it to folks here on the site, either. Perhaps there is? .0025 Taper / Out of Round... MAY not even clean up with the Plate installed... Decisions, Decisions... I sent my guy an email asking if he'd consider, or if its even possible, to leave the heads on and clean the bores up from the bottom
I sort of recall laying a 455 head gasket on a 401 block a dozen years ago and the bolt holes were just a bit off. A 455 torque plate might be able to be modified by slotting holes? I think the nail has an extra row of bolts at the bottom.
That's correct, 14 bolts instead of 10. The extra 4 bolts can be drilled & tapped on the 455's I believe. Tom T.
Resurrecting the thread! 1-28-17 I know its been a few weeks it may have lost a little momentum especially with the holidays and all. However, since I last posted, I came to terms with the fact that I needed the expensive Deck Plate to proceed, and it is now on its way to Va from California, along with NOS .020 under Federal Mogul Main AND Rod bearings Deck plate plus shipping- 597 NOS Federal Mogul Mains/Rods and a new set of gaskets for final assy- 455 The easiest thing to do at this point was to just bite the bullet. Hopefully we can straighten out the cylinders in my '59 Block when the plate arrives, and then work on the main/rod clearances by RE-Grinding my crank for .020 Under Bearings (from .010 Under). In my mind, this does not call for re-balance. ALSO, I picked up a 1965 401 bare block just after Christmas Its an LT code (1965)- with a set of rods and a center sump oil pan for DIRT cheap in case I/we cannot clean up these bores in the '59... Not pitted from what I can tell on the bearing housings, just surface rust... Its pretty rusty but believe me, it was practically given to me, so it is my backup/worst case block, should I need it. Attached are some pictures of the Oil Galley Plugs on the '65 Block which I just tapped. I did that on this block to see how feasible it was, especially after being told/reading SO many times that its not recommended bc the internal passages will get blocked. I had to cut the 3/8 NPT plugs down to .300 tall, while leaving .100 under the Hex-Socket, leaving plenty of steel to retain the oil pressure. (.300 overall height/depth) The threads had to be tapped a little further down than I'd like into the galley- meaning threads had to pass over the internal oil passages to get the plugs DEEP enough. Kinda backwards from what I've read. Just went slow with the tap, and it came out perfect. With the right sealant, I dont see why the deep threads would be problematic (see pix). The last picture shows the plug bottomed out, as seen through a cam oil passage- NO BLOCKAGE. I plan to do this on the '59 block as well while waiting for the bearings and plate to arrive, and ill go from there! Thanks for still clicking on this link and reading along.
Thanks for the pics and the updates. I did something similar but cut the ends off a few taps collected (worn) over the years, so they wouldn't run into things down the holes aways.
The shop that did my last 401 used threaded plugs from a Ford they had laying around. Good to hear the build will be moving onward!
Are you considering a hot hone procedure or have you tried measuring a Nailhead bore in closer to operating condition? Thinner, more conformable rings maybe?
I have checked around here in and near Va, and I personally cannot find anyone who does the Hot-Hone procedure. The name Kevin Banks came up, but he won't answer the phone. In a perfect world, thats what id ideally like to have done~ but we see how things have gone so far haha. And no, I haven't measured my bore or any others to see what happens when they're warmed up from say 70* when I measure to the 180* operating. Fingers crossed that the Deck Plate without the block being pre-heated is good enough to get me in the ballpark Im comfortable with ( less than .0005 Out of Round ) Hot-Honing at 180* would be sweet though! I will be using 5/64th Rings which is about as thin as I feel comfortable running for longevity. Thats what my Pistons were made for as well. Again, fingers crossed! And if these bores dont straighten out, I still have the '65 block to work with. Id just have to get a pump for it and convert the oil-pump setup to a rear-sump with the custom pickup I see on Russ' website.
Will, By my notes the rings that were supplied with the pistons are 1/16th. There's NO downside to using them instead of the 5/64ths.
Longer life with OEM's has been seen with thinner rings, and of course less oil contamination. I was bringing attention to the overly picky procedures of hot honing to bring up a point about not quite perfect bores. Some blocks are intentionally honed with taper or reverse taper. It's kind of a controversial 'fix' for an overly abused and distorted cylinder under pressure and heat. When honing without boring (.030 to .040" ) I usually have to use some short stones to take more out near the bottom, even a bit more than the top to get them to turn out right.
Tom, my apologies. With all the numbers of the rebuild floating around in my head, I was mistaken. 1/16th Rings are most definitely what I'm running!
Are you saying you think Hot-Honing is "overkill" or non-sensible in most, if not all cases? In my position, with either of these blocks, it appears you're saying hot-honing EVEN if I COULD source someone to provide that service, is just over-complicating/ over thinking things even further? My end-goal is to bolt the heads on, and stick the bore-gage in there and see that they're as straight as they were when they were honed with the plate. However, my understanding is that Hot-Honing "should" equate to straight bores under actual running conditions. Just trying to understand your rationale, as the plate is on its way! Thank you
Also, I know not to use plumbers teflon tape on the plugs, but what sealant should I use...? MANY options from Loc-tite, etc... I have some GM anaerobic sealer, but i dont think it has enough body to seal these properly.
Yes, and yes. It could never hurt, and I wondered where you were at with your expectations. Even though I get them pretty close (tenths), I wonder how much the engine notices a deviation of a thou or so over a 3-4" span, esp. when it could be really different at temp and pressure. I couldn't remember if you'd torqued up a head and checked already (from below?) The first concern I'd had doing hot honing was that it supposedly smokes the oil into the shop, although I'm not certain quite how. Maybe it just gets that much warmer at the cutting surface? The second is recalling the article I'd read showing the total deviation and where in the bore it was. I seem to recall that the deviations measured hot were near or possibly worse what yours are cold. Makes me wonder how far and in what directions a hot bore warps when compared to a cold measurement. Just something to think about
1st. make sure they are in deep enough, but NOT TOO DEEP. You could use red or green Loc-Tite. I've even use JB Weld in some instances. I only use the Anaerobic sealer on the rear main & intake gaskets. I use Hylomar for the head gaskets.I DON'T use a gasket on the valley pan, Only the grey import silicone. A smear of silicone on the ther. housing gasket. Permatex 300 for the timing case cover. Silicone around the oil pan bolts to keep them from seeping.
Thanks for the sealant recommendations, Tom. And thank you 8ad-f85 for your insight as well- It seems the more Im told and the more experiences I encounter, the art of honing appears ever closer to Voodoo! I kid... at the end of the day its just differences and discrepancies, all accountable and scientific, however, varied on a person to person/shop to shop basis/ preference! I think "traditional" honing with my plate will get me where I'm shooting for, or so I hope! The '59 block is now tapped for oil galley plugs too. I received my set of Federal Mogul .020 Under bearings in the mail today. I was excited until I realized both the Mains and Rod bearings seem or feel "rough".. The bearing surface feels like 320-400 grit sandpaper, and the backs all appear to have been wire-wheeled clean of rust!!! Not too happy with these, original/NOS or not, they just don't FEEL right. They're not smooth or slick/coated like the Rebuilders Choice I have already ( the old .010 under ) Thinking about sending them back for a set of Rebuilders Choice. Damnit. Id post pictures tonight, but Ive already shut the doors on the shop. Tomorrow ill try to upload a coupe pix for what its worth.
Heres the NOS Bearings. I truly think ill be better off with the "Offshore" stuff, aka the Rebuilders Choice. These crappy NOS bearings, and my replacement ones are in the mail now. I wish I couldve used them, but time/shelf wear had its way with them a little more than Id like.
UPDATE 2-20-17 BLOCK: Saturday, I had the block honed with the Deck Plate from BHJ. Still isn't "perfect" but its a lot better than it was. Following are the steps and snags in between. Keep in mind, block was originally honed with "short bolts w washers installed" as I didn't have the deck plate. I had ordered a set of Stainless head bolts long ago and planned to use them, but upon torquing the deck plate with them, and observing the differences from the STOCK Head Bolts, I DO NOT recommend them! They DO NOT torque... let me re-phrase... They DO NOT torque MY block evenly, WHATSOEVER as the kit is supplied with ONLY the visible bolts, leaving the stock bolts under the Valve Covers. VERY uneven torque values. The long STOCK bolts "stretch" the MOST from what I observed, distorting the bore the least. Doesn't help my case much, as I already had OOR bores. SS- PULLED IT WORSE than I even had before. SOLUTION...... With the thought in my mind that I could return ARP STUDS if they didn't pull the head evenly like I wanted, I ordered a set, along with some VERY nice ARP SS Acorn nuts and Washers.. I had to deliberate either cutting the studs to allow the Acorn nuts to seat fully, OR just double up on washers... Strictly cosmetic BUT, It pulled the Out of Round condition a tad more in check than I couldve imagined! This was a total shot in the dark, JUST to observe if it helped my case or not. Could get much worse than before! SO, Saturday 2-18-17, we honed the block with ARP STUDS, and got it "close" without taking a whole mile out of the bores. Attached are my observed numbers. Still SLIGHTLY OOR, and a little tapered. My friend with the Sunnen SV-10 Diamond hone says he can clean it up if I wish, but I'm undecided as even the FINISH on the bores now is nicer than before. 600 grit. MAINS: I said the same thing to myself with the Main Housing Bores "Lets just SEE what these studs do for my Mains..." Well, it got .0002 tighter Vertically, making the Housings .001 smaller than the low spec- on the "Y-Axis" BUT, brought 90% of the all the bores to the point that I think a few strokes of an Align Hone will clean this up. Too bad the align hone needs new stones at "The Shop" SO, Ill see if my friend who has the SV-10 Diamond Hone can also Align Hone the Mains and get that straight. BEARINGS: Dear GOD, Ive seen more Buick Bearings in the past few weeks than I care to see for awhile! Simply, being picky with the second set of NOS Johnson Bearings I received, I decided not to use them. If someone on here wants them, ill sell them for what I paid for them- pix are attached. SO, I ordered ONE "Sealed Power" bearing which is Federal Mogul, and one of the Clevite 77s for the rods. The Sealed Power didn't have an oil notch, so they were immediately not a candidate, plus the finish was a tad "less than" that of the Clevite. I wanted to stay with BI-METAL Aluminum Bearings, for long service life and great imbeddibility, but theres nothing but NOS ones out there. Trust me! Its all Tri-metal after that, and after getting my hands on the Clevite 77, its a great bearing, so I ordered the rest of the set in .020 under for the rods. Also purchased .020 Under Mains to get my clearances where I want them. CRANK: Was left with my guy, and is awaiting my numbers which will be provided AFTER I align hone the Mains, and measure the ID on the Main and Rod Bearings. PISTONS: Alright, so the bores are a "tad" bigger than they were supposed to be for the Pistons. Pistons- 4.230 Bore NOW : AVERAGE 4.2360 Rings: Are 4.233 +5 (file to fit, and was told by Total Seal are good up to 4.2375 bore) Obviously, that bore is too big for proper clearance. I checked into the place someone here, Tom, and even Racetec mentioned which is LINE2LINE Piston Coating. Check these guys out. Apparently, this coating is such a miracle material, there are guys building motors w clearance added to accommodate the coating. It self burnishes upon break-in, then stops wearing. NO METAL TO METAL CONTACT! The Material lessens Piston to Wall clearance, and is sold and marketed towards people even in my situation with bores that are simply too big. Sounds almost too good to be true...... I guess Ill find out. The thing is, I have to press the Forged Pistons OFF the Rods, which I'm VERY apprehensive about. You HAVE to do it, so they can prep the pistons properly. I did make a jig, and will attempt it with caution on my shop-press. SORRY if this was long winded, but a lot happened since I last updated. Let me know what you think! Im making SOME progress, not as much as I'd like, But CHIME IN! Thanks to all...
