A discussion of engine superiority

Discussion in 'The "Other" Bench' started by Donuts & Peelouts, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    Let's try to have a logical un biased discussion of GM engines. Let's only speak on Buick, Oldsmobile, Chevy and Pontiac, and ONLY the 350 and the 455 or 454 for Chevys sake. Now lets forget about even the 400, nailheads and everything else.

    Ok.

    From your EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE.
    Which is superior in both sb and bb?
    And what matters here in this discussion is relaiablity, least flaws out the factory, design, and fill in the blank.

    I know we are Buick guys here, but let's talk real.



    .....backstory....
    A while back I was drunk with the displacement juice and went for a cad 472 if some might remember. It was junk, and come to find out most fail the same way mine did. ...I went down the Cadillac maze and befriended a Cadillac guru. He told me if I was to ever build an engine it better be an olds or a Chevy. Though not in those words, the old mans advice stuck with me. I would like to hear your opinions and experiences on this topic.
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  2. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    o_O
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    ....................
     
  3. johnriv67

    johnriv67 Well-Known Member

    Chevy is cheap, and every one of these engine brands can be built to be reliable if you have small pockets, just don't push too much power.
     
  4. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    I'm not talking building or even price. I'm talking about design out the factory. And the direct result of that design.
     
  5. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    I want to here the bad and good about all above engines.
     
  6. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    After all these years the good, bad and ugly have came out on these...
     
  7. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Never!!:p
    Buick had a great engine and killed it to make a cheaper-to-produce replacement with a crappy oiling system. If only they had made some good heads for the Nail!!....
    The replacement 400/430 was primarily an insider company political and cost-cutting measure, as well as a product of the high-horsepower sales frenzy of the mid 60's.
     
  8. johnriv67

    johnriv67 Well-Known Member

    Then why do medium-built nails still have trouble hitting 400 hp? This will become an argumentative thread, it just takes a little while
     
    PGSS likes this.
  9. flynbuick

    flynbuick Guest

    Simply put—because the nailhead was designed to fit within the narrow frame of a straight eight engine compartment, the head design and flow was limited.
     
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  10. Golden Oldie 65

    Golden Oldie 65 Well-Known Member

    Chevrolet produced the small block, which, granted, didn't start out as a 350 but rather a 265 in 1955, evolving into a 283, 327, then 350 by 1967. That small block 350 design continued through 1999. That's 45 years of the same engine which pretty much speaks for itself. And it was used it essentially everything from passenger cars to performance cars to 1 ton trucks. Just my opinion but my vote goes to Chevy.
     
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  11. BUICKRAT

    BUICKRAT Got any treats?

    For what they were, I think the sbc was a hit because of it's dimensions. They could fit in about anything and had decent reliability. However, I think Buick and Olds were better design, significantly more torque, but a larger package.
     
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  12. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Problem with Pontiac was cast rods....

    If oil was changed regularly the timing cover Buick oil pump lasted and if it needed service you didn't need to drop pan. Hey you can change relief springs all you want in 30 seconds. Try that with a sump oil pump.
    I've run stock oil system for thousands of 1/4 passes with no issues that I know of......in everyday use and abuse (not changing oil, overheating) a cast iron pump in the pan is better I'd say....
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  13. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    I love poking the Hornets nest so much I drew what looks to be a stick figure doing that same thing. Thanks for your post, it was very insightful.
     
  14. Donuts & Peelouts

    Donuts & Peelouts Life's 2 Short. Live like it.

    Thanks guys keep it flowing.
     
  15. GraySky

    GraySky Well-Known Member

    Big block Buick had some superior design features. The nickel content of the block. Shaft mount rockers. The heads were pretty good- much closer to the design of a more modern engine than the other big blocks. It was all of the oiling system faults that really made it never live up to its potential when taken much beyond stock. The small diameter camshaft and valve train stability issues didn't help either. The huge crank journals to stabilize the lightweight casting, along with the quirky oiling system requiring tight clearances is a recipe for disaster. It's easy to see why maintenance would be critical. It's so aggravating, because they put together a solid package to make power, yet without the ability to survive the power it could make.
    It's really difficult to judge this 40+ years later because certain engines got so much more aftermarket support. I believe the small chevy is a great motor in many ways, but it sure doesn't hurt that you can buy parts for them literally everywhere for cheap. They sure seem to be much more tolerant of sloppy machine work than any Buick, which indicates a good design for production tolerances, in my opinion. We all know what happens if the tolerances are off in a Buick.
    Stock motors aside, you really have to be a Buick loyalist to spend the time and money fixing all of the issues to go fast with one.
     
  16. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Twice a season oil change on the race car.
    Sorry about your bad luck.....I have 2 430 engines one with 155K and other 115K....quiet as a mouse. Have a 70 455 that had 90K put it in drag car in 1988 still in there with thousands of passes....I did put a 5/8 pickup in it to improve the oil system that "sucks". Motor never rebuilt ....built by BUICK.
    I started racing Buicks since motors were cheap and driven by old ladies....:D
     
  17. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    Anybody that says a 425/472/500 Caddy isn't reliable must have a glass belly button to be able to see with their head that far up their anus and is most certainly no guru on them.....By far the most reliable engine for a stock GM of that era, the only reason you don't hear guys bragging about hitting 150,000 miles on them without a rebuild is because it's so commonplace it'd be like bragging about that with a Honda. Very, very few failures of any sort unless severely neglected or grandpa lent it to their the grandson/granddaughter who beat the hell out of it and brought it back shiny and clean after baja'ing it so gramps would give it to them the next weekend, too. They're also extremely light for their cubic inch size: with an aluminum intake alone, you are down to within a gnat's azz of the weight of a small block Chevy.

    Main BBC advantage over the rest: Canted valves.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
    Waterboy likes this.
  18. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    I am most certainly not prejudiced. Hopefully I have proven that on here many, many times over: I have no brand loyalty whatsoever. I will state what I believe is best, no matter if it's any of the GM products, Mopar, Ford, AMC or otherwise. And as far as not being one for modifications: I suggest you do a little more research. Here's a good place to start: https://www.cad500parts.com/engines.htm
     
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  19. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    If I show you a 514 HP and 575 Ft-Lbs built 500 for $4000, would that make you feel better? (Done by the same company that I provided the link to, coincidentally)

    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-9809-500ci-cadillac-big-block-engine-build/

    Holy cow, man, who pissed in your Wheaties this morning? Besides, as Ronnie said, he's asking for the good and bad of the engines out of the factory. Not what's good for modifying, which you obviously know not a whole lot about.
     
  20. bostoncat68

    bostoncat68 Platinum Level Contributor

    ok let me stir the pot because I like the question -- the olds 350 was sturdy enough to be turned into a diesel...albeit a bad diesel....
     

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