Any petroleum engineers here?

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by John Codman, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    I remember seeing on a science show about natural gas, and how they burn off or just plain waste the excess to control prices:mad:
    They don't store ALL the gas for reserves:rolleyes:
     
  2. copperheadgs1

    copperheadgs1 copperheadgs1

    The million dollar question is why do they just burn the methane off at sewage treatment plants. I have seen it even in NYC near AOC’s district. Crap isn’t going anywhere and is only going to increase. Why not make use of all that fart gas?
     
    Mark Demko likes this.
  3. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Yeah you would think that in this "green" world we live in, companies would do ANYTHING to save, reuse, re-purpose.
    At work, once I use a towel for precleaning before painting, I throw it in a box to use to clean tar and wax of a slimy vehicle:rolleyes:
     
  4. 36racin

    36racin Platinum Level Contributor

    I completely disagree with this. Drivers DO NOT add anything at the stations!!! If they are they are doing so illegally I work in a major brand refinery and each and every gasoline blend is certified to ship before it is put on trucks Most tanker truck have 3-4 compartments. NOT just one. The deliveries are PER station. Not bulk loads to various stations. Unless one station can be added to a load that another didn't need. If whom ever is using octane boosters(ethanol is one) then they are buying the lower octane gasoline and attempting to boost the octane number. Higher octane gasoline doesn't have the components that cause gum.
     
  5. 36racin

    36racin Platinum Level Contributor

    And since you've grown up the federal government has changed regulations as much as you changed underwear. In my 25+ years in the refinery we've been thru 5 separate unit upgrades to be able to meet changing gasoline regulations. And that's just one unit All units have had upgrades!! Upgrades cost . So cost gets pushed to consumers.
     
  6. dynaflow

    dynaflow shiftless...

    ...there are powerful industries invested in "old" technology, and generally resist change until they become powerful in the new...
     
  7. dynaflow

    dynaflow shiftless...

    ...I go back to the "Clean Air Act of 1970" that effectively killed our hobby for 40 years. As much as I disliked that loss, its intent was to remove lead from environment. Like "space race," would we be where we are now with auto technology if regs hadn't occurred...
     
  8. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    The original clean air act hit the American auto industry when it hadn't put in the time and effort that was required to meet the new regulations that were definitely coming even though the auto execs didn't want them. The early, mechanical controls (with the exception of PCV) hurt both performance and fuel economy. Short-term damage for a long-term gain. On two separate occasions my '05 Magnum RT has on a section of highway in Virginia spent 2 1/2 consecutive hours at 79 mph (in VA they can get you for reckless driving at 80 and above) and the 340 HP V8 got 28.5 mpg on regular. As it happens, I replaced the front disc brake rotors with new, slotted and cross-drilled discs and then used the disc manufacturer's break-in procedure of 10 consecutive stops from 45 mph to 5 mph without any break in the procedure. The road that I picked was one mile long. Trust me, that old magnum can still get from 5 to 45 mph in one hell of a hurry!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  9. Gene Brink

    Gene Brink Active Member

    No kidding about multiple changes in regulations. I am in California and no place in the USA has had more, or more stringent, regulations on gasoline and diesel fuels. What I was attempting to state was that I thought energy companies have done a remarkable job of holding the price on gas. Perhaps a better way to look at the cost is in how much time one has to work to purchase a gallon of gas. My first job paid a whopping $1.78 per hour (that included a 18 cent premium for working swing-shift) so a gallon of gas @ $.35 per gallon took me 11.8 minutes of work to pay for it (taxes ignored). When I retired I earned a bit over $50 per hour so the same gallon of gas @ $3.80 took only 7.9 minutes of work. I do fondly remember the good old days when 3 buck of gas would let me and my friends cruise both Friday & Saturday nights in the '54 Super BUT the time spent earning the gas money was more in 1964 than today. Still does not make me any happier paying $80 bucks to fill my wife's Volvo S80...:mad:
     
  10. dynaflow

    dynaflow shiftless...

    ...you must be talking about that strip of I95 around Quantico...:eek::)
     
  11. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    No, it was the interstate that heads Northeast from Bristol. I can't think of the route number. I was not returning home from a Nascar race.
     
  12. 64 wildcat conv

    64 wildcat conv Silver Level contributor

    John, you're thinking of I-81
     
  13. Hawken

    Hawken Hawken

    I'll add that the modern formula for determining octane levels is different than it was "back in the day" (before my time). I believe the old method when our cars were new generally gave octane figures a point or two higher.

    In the early 90's, I used to go to the local airfield and buy 5 gallons of aviation fuel and keep it ready and add some on Friday and Saturday nights on the main drag. That '70 Stage 1 loved the av-gas mixture.

    Info on octane rating:
    Measurement methods

    A US gas station pump offering five different (R+M)/2 octane ratings
    Research Octane Number (RON)
    The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane. The Compression ratio is varied during the test in order to challenge the fuel's antiknocking tendency as an increase in the compression ratio will increase the chances of knocking.

    Motor Octane Number (MON)
    Another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), is determined at 900 rpm engine speed instead of the 600 rpm for RON.[1] MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern pump gasoline will be about 8 to 12 octane lower than the RON, but there is no direct link between RON and MON. Pump gasoline specifications typically require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.[citation needed]

    Anti-Knock Index (AKI) or (R+M)/2
    In most countries in Europe (also in Australia, Pakistan and New Zealand) the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States, Brazil, and some other countries, the headline number is the simple mean or average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), and often written on pumps as (R+M)/2. It may also sometimes be called the Posted Octane Number (PON).

    Difference between RON, MON, and AKI
    Because of the 8 to 12 octane number difference between RON and MON noted above, the AKI shown in Canada and the United States is 4 to 6 octane numbers lower than elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. This difference between RON and MON is known as the fuel's Sensitivity,[5] and is not typically published for those countries that use the Anti-Knock Index labeling system.

    See the table in the following section for a comparison.

    Observed Road Octane Number (RdON)
    Another type of octane rating, called Observed Road Octane Number (RdON), is derived from testing gasolines in real world multi-cylinder engines, normally at wide open throttle. It was developed in the 1920s and is still reliable today. The original testing was done in cars on the road but as technology developed the testing was moved to chassis dynamometers with environmental controls to improve consistency.[6]

    Octane Index
    The evaluation of the octane number by the two laboratory methods requires a standard engine, and the test procedure can be both expensive and time-consuming. The standard engine required for the test may not always be available, especially in out-of-the-way places or in small or mobile laboratories. These and other considerations led to the search for a rapid method for the evaluation of the anti-knock quality of gasoline. Such methods include FTIR, near infrared on-line analyzers and others. Deriving an equation that can be used for calculating the octane quality would also serve the same purpose with added advantages. The term Octane Index is often used to refer to the calculated octane quality in contradistinction to the (measured) research or motor octane numbers. The octane index can be of great service in the blending of gasoline. Motor gasoline, as marketed, is usually a blend of several types of refinery grades that are derived from different processes such as straight-run gasoline, reformate, cracked gasoline etc. These different grades are considered as one group when blending to meet final product specifications. Most refiners produce and market more than one grade of motor gasoline, differing principally in their anti-knock quality. The ability to predict the octane quality of the blends prior to blending is essential, something for which the calculated octane index is specially suited.[7]

    Aviation gasoline octane ratings
    Aviation gasolines used in piston aircraft engines common in general aviation have a slightly different method of measuring the octane of the fuel. Similar to an AKI, it has two different ratings, although it is referred to only by the lower of the two. One is referred to as the "aviation lean" rating and is the same as the MON of the fuel up to 100.[8] The second is the "aviation rich" rating and corresponds to the octane rating of a test engine under forced induction operation common in high-performance and military piston aircraft. This utilizes a supercharger, and uses a significantly richer fuel/air ratio for improved detonation resistance.[5][unreliable source?]

    The most commonly used current fuel, 100LL, has an aviation lean rating of 100 octane, and an aviation rich rating of 130.[9]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  14. Junkman

    Junkman Well-Known Member

    I would like to know what the difference in gasoline in the south (Florida/Georgia) vs. the north east. I bought an '03 Silverado 15 years ago with a 5.3 LS engine and 4L65E trans. Well, it has almost 700k miles on the original engine. It still runs great. In Florida , gas mileage is about 12-14 mpg not towing anything. Anywhere from Virginia and north the gas mileage jumps to 18-22 and the performance is much better.
     

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