I think the SM/shubeck lifter issue came from an engine that was run with a lifter that was made from solid ceramic, not the puck type. Why not let people run the shubeck style lifter with the 'puck'? I've seen several engines with camshaft lobe problems because of poor oil quality and crappy lifters that were(are) on the market for a while. My camshaft guy has recommended high dollar race lifters if shubecks aren't allowed. Neither are really stock or cheap, but the shubecks COULD save an engine. Scott Max Wedge Freak!!
I just happen to have a few sets of lifters here.Any of you purists wanna guess the weight differance between a SM lifter and a good old fasioned hydraulic Comp Cams lifter? Here is a hint for you....It is less than 2.5 dollars worth
rdl,how do you figure thats bracket racing,it would be bracket racing if i were paired with jj's vette and given a 3 sec head start,we run against the closest car [time wise]to ours.And be my guest to look at anything in my engine you want its 100% factory [1969]mopar,ive got nothing to hide im just tired of some of you guys knocking a good thing.
They aren't knocking a good thing.......they want to keep it a good thing. Don't think for a minute the excessive stretching and in some cases complete disregard for the P/S rules doesn't have an effect on it's future. I'll tell you first hand it does.
so if a never seen before car and driver show up, and run 10.90s. who do you think will be the first to protest? im geuessing its the low 11s group, same as the (closer) to stock 13 and 14 second cars do about the cars in the 11.s i think most read the the PSMCDR as pure stock meaning as it came from the factory, or with factory options available for the year and model. and replacemant parts being to the factory specs. so with this in mind how many cars came from the fatory running low 11s just a thought dont bash me to hard fellasray:
Please quantify your concerns. Is it: 1. The organizers? Making/ Letting it become too un-pure? 2. The cars? What % are OK and what % not OK? Can you give me a number? 3. The speeds? The ET's? Too fast/ quick will kill event because track(s) will say so? 4. NHRA rules/ specs? What is a better way that is easily/ universally accessed? 5. Event will die? Because racers/ fans will turn away? Hard to really pinpoint this because of these bad times. Disposable income drying up. Just trying to better understand. My concern is the extra burden potentially being placed on Dan and Bob. Who needs it? Cost of all the tech/ teardown could increase entry fees if alot more people are needed. Fellow racers can help, but may not be a reliable option. Will limit their own track time. Not a big deal, maybe, but if a guy is chasing problems he'll need track time. Weather may limit track time. Lots of variables that could complicate things. Not saying rules should not be taken seriously and enforced.
why is this so hard to police?? how many PS small block cars ran in the 13's in the 70's??? none how many big block cars ran in the 12's? none and you guys are worried about 11.50's and roll bars for PS ? gimme a break... if you run out of those above paramaters, your subject to review and quarantine very simple
Paul, it's difficult to isolate the concern(s) in the way you've tried to itemize them here (although I respect your effort to do so). The result of what is being recommended by the doves is not more tech time, rather it's consistent tech. The rules have been relaxed over the years as hawks discovered "cracks" to make these cars go faster. In a few specific instances, when tech was faced with an item that was questionable, tech turned a blind eye (probably meaning well in an effort to be inclusive). That's how X-pipes got introduced; that's how welded mufflers got to become common; that's how modern hollowed out exhaust systems started showing up; and, in at least one instance... that's how a glass lifter got through. Now there's plenty of opportunity for guys to legitimately argue that they need roller tip rockers and glass based lifters so they don't wipe out a cam! There doesn't need to be a slippery slope if tech simply enforced the rules. Where something is supposedly in doubt, the rules say you have the onus of establishing that the questionable tech item was available for the year, make and model of car. If that were really true, I'm telling you we wouldn't have this thread.
Now that you have that weight remember it's not static. We need, among other things, the lifter acceleration Mass X Acceleration = Force. Just for conversation, if you have a 25 gram weight (.05515lb) and accelerate it at 10g it has .5507819 pounds of force. Over 1/2 pound. Just an example of......everything doing nothing.
Pull 3 dollar bills out of your wallet.Tear one in half and that is the weight difference. SM 106.1 Comp108.5 I said a smidge, but it is actually only 2.4 grams or 2 and a half pieces of US currency. Some of you guys don't know what you don't know.
For a long time I always thought in the Pure Stock type class races the top runners were the racers with the patience to really fine tune every aspect of their car and had a lot of respect for those guys. Maybe at one point this was true, but now it seems its who can simply bend the rules enough without showing a huge advantage over the other top front runners. I'm sure their are a few guys who actually do follow the rules and they bust their asses trying to catch up to illegal cars. Why should someone receive any type of recognition as a top runner because their interpretation of "untouched ports" is different than someone elses? I don't know if it's a "I won't tell if you don't tell" or if its a "if your doing it then I can do it" type attitude. I really wanted to restore/build up a car to compete in some of these events. I just don't need to explain to people why someone else with the exact same combo could be more than a full second faster than me. Or why I'm racing heads up with something that should be slower. I could just put together a totally illegal yet much cheaper engine and just slightly sandbag at the events. If I don't run near any of the top runners for my combo no one would feel threatened so most likely no one would feel the need to closely check my setup.
Thanks for the info Tom:TU: But remember, I didn't say I knew what they weighed, I said per the rules a guy would have to prove they were factory available or a reasonable replacement. What is the plunger travel difference?
I may be wrong, but I have been told a ceramic puck lifter allows for more violent ramping because it prevents galling into the cam lobe.........
Yea but no one would use them for that. It's only so you can swap cams without buying lifters.:laugh: Of course you could wonder how many stock cams does a person need?
getting a little off track here but still a rule issue. i have a 68 SS396 4sp chevelle, however the 396 is long gone and replaced with a smogger 454 still looks the same, orignal manifolds, Qjet, stock cam, etc. probably a hundred horse less then the original 396 so the car is slower then it once was. im still looking for a period correct 68 date coded 396, not an easy find. i would love to run this car at the ps drags but, it doesnt meet the rules with the 454. it sure wouldnt offend anyone, if anything they would wonder why its so slow. are there any exceptions for this situation?
Valve Train: The complete valve train must be factory stock for the year, make, and horsepower claimed. Rocker arm ratio must be correct for the year and horsepower claimed. Roller tip rockers allowed as long as correct ratio is used. No full-roller rocker arms allowed. Random requests for valve cover removal WILL happen. Poly-lock type adjustable nuts, jam (crimp) nuts, and adjustable pushrods are allowed. Valve covers must be correct for the make, year, and horsepower claimed. How can anyone expect to know what the rules are when they contradict themselves? Must be stock,but blah,blah and blah is OK. Roller tips, MSDs,X pipes, big exhaust All that stuff is OK with you guys but don't dare cross the line with a NHRA building trick (whatever that is) Where does it say no SM lifters? They just drop in.Compare that to a MSD boxo No:
Brian, before I tell you how much plunger travel they have... tell me how much plunger travel they need to be considered a hydraulic lifter. You guys feed off each other.Tom Miller know they are lighter only because someone told him they are.That person may or may not be correct.It sure gives you guys alot to whine about though
The exceptions to stock are listed, S-M lifters are not part of the list. So to be accepted they should be factory available or a reasonable factory replacement.
