Barroom car trivia:

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by 1972Mach1, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    I am well aware that Ford also used the C and J codes for the 428 engine. You didn't need to be so condescending in responding.


    Thanks for being so polite in correcting my obvious errors [sarcasm intended]
    As a published writer, this sort of reply makes for a dreadful teacher or instructor. Had I used such mannerisms during my days in adult education, my employer at the time would've sent me packing in short order.

    I'm done here, have a nice day.
     
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  2. 442w30

    442w30 Well-Known Member

    I'm confounded why when you offer counterpoint to my initial post, it's plainspoken and factual, but when I respond, it's plainspoken and condescending?

    I'm happy to offer evidence to you if you wish to understand that both you and I are learning as we go along. Otherwise, my apologies that your sensibilities have been offended.
     
  3. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    In '73, the only way you could get the "RAM AIR" hood was with an H code 351-2V. Always heard and read is was due to Ford trying to sneak one by the feds but never confirmed it (I wasn't born until 6 years later), and they didn't call the Q code 351-4V a "Cobra Jet" that year, either. The 429 cars that were only available in 1971 (I know you guys know this, but maybe others don't) were a C-code non-RAM AIR 429 Cobra Jet and a J-code RAM AIR 429 Cobra Jet. They were the same except one had RAM AIR and one didn't. When you ordered your 429 car with the Drag Pack option, it automatically turned the car into a 429 Super Cobra Jet with 3.91 or 4.11s, a solid lifter cam, 780 Holley, and forged pistons. Either a C code or a J code could be a Super Cobra Jet/Drag Pack car. The 429 engine codes in 1971 really are only concerned with whether the car had RAM AIR or not.
     
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  4. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    One of the proposed names for the Edsel was ‘Utopian Turtletop’.
     
  5. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    I knew the Ram Air option was only available for 1973 with the H code 351, as you stated. It's entirely possible I misconstrued my info for 1972 and 1971.

    Diego, the best way to piss someone off is to tell them they're wrong. Far better to suggest your information is different so as to open a conversation.

    Let's see how our interaction might have occurred in an alternate universe using that method. :)

    Mister T posts:

    Here's another Ford trivia item. On 1971 Mustangs, the VIN's 5th character didn't specifically designate between the 429 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet engines. It only told you if the car had Ram Air or not. If you had a "J" code, that was Ram Air, "C" code was not. Many people believe the J code was the SCJ engine.

    Ford did a similar thing with the 351 4V engine that year, "Q" code was Ram Air, while "M" code wasn't. The Boss 351 was an "R"


    442w30 responds:

    That is essentially true, although there's a couple of differences:

    Ford never considered a SCJ an engine. Hence, in 1969-70, when the 428 CJ was at its peak, there still was only Q (no ram air) and R (with ram air). The Drag Pack, which turned a CJ into a SCJ, had no bearing on the VIN code.

    This was also true for the 1970 429 CJ that was introduced for the Fairlane series: C (no ram air) and J (with ram air), which was carried into 1971 for the Mustang.

    However, only in 1970, Mercury did something different:

    Q = 428 CJ whether it had ram air or not
    C = 429 CJ whether it had ram air or not

    That being said, yes, many people think R = SCJ and J = SCJ.

    Quoted from Mister T: Ford did a similar thing with the 351 4V engine that year, "Q" code was Ram Air, while "M" code wasn't. The Boss 351 was an "R" code.

    442w30 answer - *This isn't entirely correct. My research has uncovered the following:* Note my rephrasing of your initial reply

    Q = 351 CJ, which was introduced mid-year 1971 and continued into 1974 (1973 for the Mustang).

    M = basic 351 4v that was discontinued after 1971.

    Mister T replies to 442w30:


    I find it difficult to believe Ford didn't consider the 429 SCJ an engine, especially since I once owned a 429 SCJ Mach 1. Two main differences between the CJ and SCJ were carburetor and camshaft. The CJ used a Quadrajet carb while the SCJ used a Holley. The CJ used a hydraulic cam while the SCJ used a solid cam.

    Have you ever visited this site? http://429mustangcougarinfo.50megs.com/

    I used to frequent it years ago when searching for my old Mach 1. Its members are very knowledgeable.

    As for the 351 engine code variations, it's completely possible my memory has failed me. My Cleveland engine knowledge isn't as solid as it could be. Thanks for attempting to rectify that.

    442w30 responds:

    If Ford considered it a different engine, why didn't the company give it its own engine code?

    Likewise, it's strange that Ford gave it a different engine code whether it had ram air or not. I'm sure they had their reasons.

    But Ford was not the only company to add heavy-duty equipment to cars equipped with digger gears--Mopar did the same with the Super Track Packs, although most of the HD equipment was added supporting the engine, like bigger radiator, Dana axle, etc.

    My initial response to you was to show that the thing with the different engine codes, and the Drag Pack, were true for the 428 as well.

    Ram air was an accessory option and did not change the engine designation of the 351.

    The H-code 351-2 was available with ram air from 1971-73.

    The M-code 351-4 was available with ram air in 1971, its last year.

    The Q-code 351-4 was available with ram air in 1972 for part of the year, and that was that. This is the only one I'm not 100% sure on because the 1971 version is very very rare, and I think the 2bbl. was the only one available with ram air in 1973.

    Mister T responds:

    I am well aware that Ford also used the C and J codes for the 428 engine in 1970. I was also certain the Ram Air was only available with specific 351 C engines, and not the entire lineup as stated. Hmm, another tidbit to file away into my cranium.

    I have no idea why Ford didn't give the CJ and SCJ engines their own code for 1971. Perhaps the answer lies in one of our esteemed members signature line of "If you can't clear up the confusion, at least make the confusion clear". :D

    End of discussion......for now.

    So in this alternate world,we've managed to discuss this issue without rancor.

    It's one thing to be direct and to the point, it's quite another to do so with respect for the other person's lack of knowledge. I spent almost ten years in adult education where saying "you're wrong" to a student is virtually guaranteed to lose their interest.. I learned plenty about how to correct behavior and actions without having the student lose respect for their instructor(s).

    Learning is a wonderful endeavor, provided the environment is conducive to doing so. I'm always open to that.

    Let's move on.....
     
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  6. 442w30

    442w30 Well-Known Member

    Sorry, we're talking cars, not whose mom is prettier. My ego is not involved in this, and when I have an opposing objective opinion, I'll present it and explain why, generally in a plainspoken manner.

    It's beyond my control whether you'll like my response or not. It's no judgment on you or your character or abilities. It's all about the facts the way I perceive them, the same way you stated the facts the way you perceived.
     
  7. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

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  8. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    I installed an NOS set-up on a '59 Impala Conv. It came in the original GM packaging with instructions. I believe it was dated 1960. The car eventually went to Japan.
     

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