any of you good buick bodymen ever use featherfill/primer?i hear its great and i hear its junk.ive read that you have to use a 2.0 tip when spraying?
use FF. G2 its better, featherfill sprays on very thick yes i would use a 2.0 tip, its great for making a pannel real straight with minimal spraying, good for tight curves, basicly its sprayable bodyfiller
I know I wouldn't have that stuff on my car if somebody paid me to use it. There are so many newer technology primers that are way superior and very affordable. It's like comparing laquer to b/c. The best thing the paint manufacturers have done in recent years was to quit making refinish laquer. :TU:
Using that Feather Fill is like using sprayable filler but harder to sand. I'd stick to primer surfacer and today's fillers. I think you would be much better off. If you could glassbead the metal first so much the better. Metal prep. is NO.1. If any moisture is trapped the cancer starts. Even good mud jobs last 10 years. Ray
Yes, there are "newer technologies", however there is NOTHING that will do what polyster primer will do. What would be the difference from applying a skim coat of polyester putty over an entire panel? It is a LOT better than trying to apply enough urethane primer to repair a wavy panel. It is not a replacement for urethane, epoxy or other 2K products. It is however a great way to handle a particular problem, needing a LOT of fill. I have abused polyester primer in testing its use. I never saw it fail in anyway and it did some amazing things. How about filling 36 grit scratches with one application of two or three coats with no flash in between? Then applying a black base coat and clear right over it after blocking with 180, then 400. I saw this car eight months later and there was ZERO shrinkage! There was not one single 36 grit scratch seen. Yes, there was some of the 400 grit scratches seen, but that was not the polyesters fault. But even these had to be in the right light to be seen. Overall it looked perfectly fine. No, there are some uses for the product and it will kick butt in those uses. Brian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Basics of Basics" Paint technology. By Brian Martin There are many different types (or more correctly, technologies) of products you can use in the restoration or repair of your vehicle. Some have a variety of uses while others are very limited with only a few of specific uses. Proper choice of products can help you get the job done faster and/or help with the longevity of the repair. Lets start with some basic definitions. I couldnt possibly know every paint manufactures terminology or product use. These are generalities and should be used as a guide only to then read the tech sheets of the products you are choose for proper use. These tech sheets can be found at the jobber and are given away free. Or most manufactures have them on line, USE THEM. They are a wealth of information and can save you many headaches. You dont need to read every word in the mind numbing text, they usually have a product at a glance or something like that will cut to the chase and give you what you need. Basic terminologies; Solvent is a generic term and refers to any reducer, thinner that is used to reduce the viscosity (thickness) of a product to aid in spraying or applying. It could be acetone, lacquer thinner, urethane reducer, a special basecoat reducer, water, alcohol, etc. These solvents ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; each product MUST be used with the specific solvent recommended by the manufacture. Etch primer an acid containing primer. Primer a product that can be applied to bare metal Surfacer (or primer surfacer) A primer that has body or solids and is used to fill imperfections and provide a film thickness to sand or block a surface to a smooth base for paint. Sealer a non-sanding product that is applied prior to painting. Primer-sealer A sealer that can be applied over bare metal and then top coated without sanding. Flash time the time you allow the solvents to evaporate out of the film you have applied. Basic technologies; Single component or RTS (Ready To Spray). This is a product that uses no additional components. Just pour it from the can into your gun and shoot. Examples are: Some plastic adhesion promoters and primers and even some top coats like vinyl colors. 1K This is a product that uses no hardener, catalyst, activator, etc. It may have an added solvent, but no hardener or activating reducer. 1K products like RTS dry with the evaporation of solvents and are soluble, meaning that they are could be wiped off with a rag soaked with lacquer thinner. They could in THEORY be scraped off and put in a can with solvent and stirred back to a sprayable condition. Of course ALL RTS products are 1K. Examples: All lacquer products, some synthetic enamel products, and some acrylic enamel products. Because of the low VOC regulations the 1K product options are getting scarce, with most limited to specialty products like adhesion promoters. 2K or Two component is any product that uses a hardener, activator, catalyst, etc. It may or may not use a third component in the form of a solvent. 2K products dont dry like a 1K. The 2K product cures by molecules linking together to form a whole new compound. Most high quality 2Ks are insoluble after a full cure and will not soften when exposed to solvents like thinners or gas. Examples are urethane under coats and top coats. Epoxies, ISO free products that use a hardener, etc. Basic tip, ALL 2K products should be mixed as accurately as possible. As a rule 2K products need a minimum of 55 degrees to cure with an ideal minimum of 65 degrees. MIX THEM AS DESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURE. They have spent hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars developing the product, they WANT it to work as BEST it can. Do as they say, dont become a Junior Chemist. Types of products and their uses; Etch primers (some are 2K) Wash or Vinyl wash are for bare metal applications for the ultimate in adhesion and corrosion protection. They are very low in solids with next to zero filling qualities. Some are even semi transparent. They are usually not to be top coated with paint. You apply them to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection under other undercoats such as epoxy or urethane primers. Benefits: - Very thin, keeps down film build - Cost effective - Fast application - Non-sanding - Super high corrosion protection. Disadvantages: - Some have a very small re-coat window Etch primer (some are 2K) Typical etch primers have much more solids and body than wash primers. They are more forgiving than wash primers, one thing being a much longer re-coat window. They are basically used to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection as with wash primer. You would choose typical etch over wash if you have some paint or plastic filler as a substrate along with the bare metal. Some brands have a recommendation to apply top coats over it also. This could be very useful in a money saving or time saving is important. Benefits: - Easy to apply, smooth, easy to sand - Some can be applied over plastic filler (not that you need it over the plastic filler, but if you have some, it is nice to not have to go around it) - Some can be top coated, which can be a big time and money saver. - VERY cost effective Disadvantages: - Added product to buy and apply. IMPORTANT basic! If you have used ANY metal treatment or conditioner read tech sheets carefully for compatibility . The acid in the metal treatment or conditioner can attack the acid in etch primers and it can LOOSE adhesion from the metal! Urethane primer (2K) Urethane primer is the most common primer used in auto body and restoration by far. It has good solids and fills well. It is easy to sand and can provide you with a perfect body when blocked properly. Care should be taken when applying it as to not use too much. It can shrink when applied too heavy. It is the best all around primer for applying over plastic body filler and for surfacing your work. If used properly it provides the proper film thickness under top coats and is the perfect substrate for bs/ss and SS. Benefits: - Easy to apply, and sand. - Applies smooth. - Fills well with minimum of shrinkage Disadvantages: - Contains Isocyanates. - Should always use an etch primer under it. Epoxy primer (2K) Epoxy is a good corrosion fighter. It is has a very sticky resin and will provide good adhesion to MOST substrates. It typically has poor filling and sanding qualities (that sticky resin makes sanding difficult) . It is ideal for use as a primer/sealer on bare metal that requires no surfacing. Perfect for frames and components, radiator supports, items that are sandblasted and you only need to prime and paint. You use it as a non-sanding primer/sealer and then paint right over it. Benefits: - Good chip resistance (it isnt as hard as a urethane) - Perfect for a primer/sealer over bare metal. - Etch primers can skipped because of its excellent adhesion and corrosion properties. (although for maximum corrosion protection apply a wash etch under the epoxy) - Provides good base under plastic body fillers (skip the etch if you plan on using plastic filler over epoxy) - Epoxy has no isocyanates . Disadvantages: - Poor sanding qualities - Poor filling Polyester primer (2K) Polyester is a very specialized primer used in very small amount in most shops across the country. But when it is needed, it does a job like no other. Polyester has a huge solids content and will fill 80 grit scratches in one coat or 36 grit in two or three! Urethane for instance provides about or mils per coat while polyester can give you as much as 4 to 6! Because of its high solids, it shrinks very little. It is basically like spraying polyester putty. Look for a manufacture that has a recommendation to apply etch primer under it. I see NO reason to use polyester on a straight panel. It is for use only when you need some serious filling and surfacing. Benefits: - VERY high filling - Low cost Disadvantages: - Very high texture - Harder to sand than a urethane - Possible need to purchase a large gun to shoot it. ISO FREE (2K) ISO FREE is a urethane type primer but without the harmful isocyanates that a urethane contains. The problem is ALL refinish products should be used with the same care and concern for your health and others. ISO FREE is like low tar cigarettes, dont kid your self, it is still VARY harmful. Benefits: - Isocyanate free - Smooth, easy sanding - Good filling Disadvantages: - You need an etch over bare metal before it. Basic tips Etch primers can be skipped on spots of bare metal smaller than a dime or so when using all primers listed. Most quality 2K primers need NO sealer before top coating with bc/cc or SS when applied properly. Sealers All RTS or 1K sealers should be reserved to VERY low end jobs to save money. They do NOT offer the benefits of a 2k, PERIOD. Reasons to use a sealer: - Makes up for some poor preparation - Provides a uniform color for better coverage when you apply paint. - Helps with providing a uniform substrate for paint. - Helps provide a better substrate when painting over a 1K primer. - Can Help with covering poor prior repairs Under collision repair conditions a shop may use sealers on every job as an insurance protection against problems. In a restoration environment where complete panels are primed with a 2K there really is no need to use them. If you have chosen to use a sealer there now are a few more choices to make. First, you need to decide what kind of sealer to use. As I mentioned in the beginning, RTS or 1k could be used to save money. Why put a 1K sealer over your 2K primer (I hope you are using a 2K primer) then apply a 2K top coat? It is like the old saying, Its only as strong as its weakest link. If you use a 1K sealer in this fashion it is like replacing a link in your tow chain with a nylon tie! With 2K there are a few options, epoxy and urethane being the most popular. I dont feel that there is a huge difference in the two as far as how they apply or work. Epoxy is more forgiving with sensitive substrates. It really comes down to what you feel more comfortable with. The epoxy has no isos so that would be one reason to choose it. Now that you have decided what sealer to use you have to decide on what application. Most sealers give you the option of a wet on wet (or very close to it) or a full barrier coat application. The difference being with wet on wet the sealer is applied and then allowed a short flash time before the basecoat or SS is applied. A barrier coat is where the sealer is applied, then allowed to cure or at the very least to totally flash. This allows the sealer to become a barrier so the solvents from the color coat cant penetrate it and attack the substrate. The barrier coat procedure allows for he sealer to do MUCH more of what you choose to use a sealer for in the first place. The choice is made taking into account a few factors. How sensitive is the substrate? Or, how aggressive are the solvents in the color coat that you are applying? If it is very hot weather and you are using a slow solvent in the color coat to help it lay out, you may choose to use a sealer because you know that the substrate is sensitive and the slow solvent will attack it. Well, that is about it for the basics, have fun!
If metal fabrication (welding patches) work is done properly Featherfill is not needed. Also once you spray Featherfill where a body line is you will have a hard time making a body line look original. BIG TIME. Been there done that. It sprays on to thick. Period. And to hard to sand. Also any 36 grit or whatever wheel or sand paper you use the gouges on the metal are not filled in with Featherfill, it sprays on to thick. Period. I have a rear sail panel that proves it. Body filler I have used lasted so far for 15 years and still looks mint today. If you send some pics of what you are working on I can help you out. Without being confusing. Ray
We'll have to agree and argee to disagree on a few things. First off, of course if you "properly" do any body repair you don't need it. Yes, it WILL fill 36 grit scratches, it isn't THAT thick. What brand polyester primer did you use? There are a number of different ones on market. I agree Featherfill is one of the thickest, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. PLC makes a very nice one that is not quite as thick. Your sail panel is only proof THAT application didn't work out, either by application or some other problem. The truth is, it works. There are a lot of restoration and street rod shops that use it on every car to block it out (including body lines) to PERFECTION. Brian
I agree with Brian---if you have a large wavy panel then it should be considered as an alternative to gobbing the panel up with mud (and thus increasing your odds of pinholing in the mud causing problems down the road) and trying to get enough urethane primer on there to serve the same purpose. I have seen absolute top notch shops use it and similar products (Herberts Alu-Spray and the Spies equivalent)and their final products are just fine....even years down the road. You can say it all you want but you can't spread mud as consistent as a spray gun can apply these high build fillers. Patton
Exactly, on a very large panel it is soooooo much better than a skim coat of polyester putty it isn't even funny. On something with lots of body lines or nooks and crannies it is a God send. The first time I ever used it was on my 48 Chevy pickup tailgate. On a firewall, it is worth it's wait in gold. No, there IS a place for it, it doesn't replace all other options, but there IS a place for it. Brian
Maybe Featherfill will work in a place like California without drastic temp. changes, just like laquer sprayed on 20 coats thick will. But try using those same techniques like here in Wyoming where we have extreme temperature changes in a very short time, sometimes just an hour or less. That brittle, thick stuff won't hold up too awful long. My dad used it in his bodyshop around here back in the 80's and to this day he despises that stuff and would never use it again. I know myself I would live with some waviness in the panels before hammering on all that material and knowing what's potentially there to come back and haunt later on.
So what you are saying is all the cars with polyester primer whos owners drive them to Cody rodeo week have primer cracking when they leave? What is the difference between a skim coat of polyester putty like Glaze Coat and polyster primer? Not much that I know of. So, if the polyester primer will fail, so would applying polyester putty. Brian
I was actually talking about over time, as undercoat problems don't always show up right away which you are well aware of I'm sure. I would say if there are people like you that have had success with it that's great, and they should just keep on using it.
I see you edited out what you really wanted to say. Strato, honestly, I am not looking to argue, I just want to make a point.And I am more than willing to listen to yours. I am sure that some products aren't going to work in all climates, some of the extremes like 120 deg in Death Valley CA to 100% humitity in Galviston TX something has got to give. But I have say, if the primer was applied and cured with no forseen problems but failed later, it is WAY more likely that it was an application problem. I know I had it fail big time once when I applied it over some sort of rust product like Rustmort or something like that. I did a peddle car that was VERY pitted from rust. Polyester primer was the perfect thing for that. But I applied this junk "Magic potion" style (read that POR, ZeroRust type product) product and then applied the polyester primer. I sanded and painted a stunning brandywine candy job on it. In one year out in the back yard the polyprimer was spliting and peeling off the metal! This was in good old CA without the severe temp changes. On another forum there is a guy who did a test on applying epoxy primer before plastic filler or applying the filler over bare metal, which is better? Well his test showed (or so he thought) that the epoxy over bare metal failed when pried up with a screw driver. While the body filler over bare metal bit like mad. Well, the fact was (as you know I pointed out to him) that he used "Picklex" metal conditioner on the bare metal prior to the epoxy. THAT is what caused the failure (at least that is something you would need to explore) not the epoxy. So, he is going around fully believing that the epoxy doesn't stick as good to bare metal as polyester body filler. That simply isn't true, at least this test didn't prove it. Thanks for putting up with me. Brian
Brian, I apologize for being so narrow minded and undermining the comments you and others had in support of Featherfill. I have personally never used it on anything so I didn't have justification to bad mouth the product. :error: You made some good points and I'm sure there are excellent uses for the product, otherwise why would it still be around all of these years ? As you mentioned, with nearly every paint product, failure is usually due to an application problem. Tim
