Huh, I guess you can do that after all......

Ken, you have a lifetime membership to the FAST board.

This is probably a good time to post this so... The other day I used the "whistler" to check the compression on my Hemi, it come in exactly where it was suppose to 13.5 to 1. I was there with Dan and we decided to mock up Bob K's deal (oil running into the cylinder) so we put the spark plug tube and spark plug back on the head and tighten it all down, we then squirted the only oil we could find (trans fluid) onto the tube, let it settle and than pulled it out. There's no doubt in my mind if it were a hot engine with oil all over the place more oil would have entered the cylinder. Long story short my compression went from 13.5 to 14.1 to 1, it shot up .6 on the whistler. I'd bet money it was off even further on Bobs car, more oil.. 100% true story, ask Dan. I don't know where Bobs compressions at, I don't know if it's legal or not, I was not there when the engine was being assembled, I just thought this was good info.
I do have to say something about the Pontiac pistons. Everybody here does know that dome cost HP and a flat top will make more HP, right? I smile every time I see that brought up. At this level it's probably nothing to speak of but he's gonna make more HP with the correct piston. Isn't this stuff mechanics 101??

Tim, did the Vette have an air cleaner in place? Also I have heard for years Jimmy's Vette has an aftermarket trans. I like Jimmy and I'm not trying to start sh!t at all. Please do not take it that way. Is this another bullsh!t rumor or is it true? Are GM's allowed aftermarket transmissions?

 

Boy, am I glad I have the safety of the announcer's tower to avoid this crap . . .

I've been fortunate to become good friends with Bob and Dan through this event. To me, it's all about having fun and learning about your car and how to make it run. When things got competitive, a certain group of people formed FAST and took it to the level they wanted to go. Numerous other copycat races formed (please do not infer that as a derogatory term) to catch the excitement that PS was promoting through the magazines. These other races are not as purist as PS, and that's PS's downfall because it involves the pragmatic (your car must be stock) and the emotional (human beings are competitive by nature, and racing always involves someone trying to get the upper hand).

Bob and Dan have integrity, but since this is a grass roots event, they manpower to enforce the rules in the proper manner simply is not there. But, aside of the rules, the participants have a responsibility to respect the people running it. I travel out of my own pocket - like you guys - to work at the event so I can hang out with some friends, meet new ones, and view a car show where they go racing. To see the in-fighting just isn't in the spirit of what the race is about, and with all the work Bob and Dan put into it, it's also unfair.

If this was the NHRA or even FAST, it would be one thing. But think of this as the house that Bob and Dan built - you are their guests, so behave like good guests.

 

Well said by both Dave and Diego.

Dave, I am very happy you and Dan took the time to take a real life approach to tech an engine design that is not as common or easy as the technically challenged think it is. I work in a test lab environment and do that type of stuff everyday. This experiment was done on both yours and Dans own time which is where that "integrity" word Diego mentioned comes into play. :TU: I don't know what is inside Bob K's engine and I don't care. Thats the job of the organizers of the events we attend and should be no one elses business.

If it is decided to limit compression ratios at these events to advertised, I'm out. I have built my engines close to the NHRA specs with a little left on the table for service if need be. The metal has been removed and it can't be put back. I have talked this stuff over with the PSMCDR organizers before the builds took place and have abided by their rulings. Too expensive to start over.

I do agree that a true flat top piston will make more power (all other conditions being equal) than a domed piston.

Diego, all I can say is you are more eloquent than I. Must be all that education.:Smarty: Very well said.

 

Dave here is my reply to your questions -so it's not confused with starting crap .
Yes we knew of the oil test. Dan called Pete and told him- it raised it .5 almost .6 not the 1.2 points shown on the whistler that day. That you had some cool spark plug boots to seal it, was told to get them and would be tested again .
I still don't have a clue why he was fighting to say it was ok to run the Super stock 102cc piston or any deck height which would also raise compression though.
If these facts are wrong please let me know.

Pontiac pistons-yes domes inhibit flame propagation.Wether the increase in cc to raise compression (which make power about 25hp per 1 point compression after 9.5) or flame travel losses o No: -My guess the dome would have to be significant to hurt it. It was a low profile dome. I'll leave this to debat.

air cleaner- which one?

Jimmy trans. Didn't inspect that. Was told to check spring pressure,converter or for alumn flywheel ,piston configuration,any signs of porting(last 2 with bore scope) and Dan preformed compression testing.
He did have -125lbs spring seat pressure- no Kilgore but had a steel flywheel,Dome pistons, and no signs of porting.( all casting bumps and risers in place on intale and heads).

Gm vs aftermarket trans- I believe that was taken care of at my house 2 years ago(driver meeting) the answer would be yes.Only the Borg warner T-10 version from richmond ,which is an exact duplicate. It was given as a consulation to Gm people for the use of aftermarket blocks. We said we would dump them- but no aftermarket hemi blocks. At the time Bob K. decided there was no performance advantage then, that he would rather have the hemi block allowed. So to answer -YES. only the t-10 though.

I do wonder where all the people are that where willing to discuss their problems on the phone and in private are in these discussions. Not to give credit for as far as this went( because I do think it went to far)There where far more than 2 that offered distaste for the last few years.

Let me know if I can help you out anymore Dave.:TU:

 

:shock: Wow! Isn't this ugly! Like Mr Glasgo says, you have to admire Donny and Tim's passion for this event. They have got wrapped up in this whole deal because of me. Last year I asked Donny to get the NHRA specs and do a nice 3 ring binder with a lot of car specs on it and have the math done so I knew what the allowable number was for compression. I also asked Tim to help as he owned the bore scope and as he knew how to run it.
I have run tech for a few years at Martin, as Dan and Bob need a break from there own event, but last year they wanted to help at Martin to see what was going on and use the findings for there own event.
There is a lot of talk about who is legal and who is not.
It is very expensive to certify and time consumming, so we thought we would try and tech the quick 8 as best we could. Dan now owns the "whistler", so compression is easy to check without a teardown.
That week almost gave me a heart attack, as my phone rang off the wall and I was receiving hate mail. People were mad cause I was checking cars and thought I was on a personal witch hunt of certain cars. It is suppose to be a formality
NHRA specs are here to stay. Love or hate em (and I hate them) that is the way it is.
Tech makes a tough day. I made maybe 4 runs at Martin in my car, as tech took my whole day. We got 4 cars done and that killed over 5 hours.
Tech is good. You do have to keep a handle on it. Some of the cars had some "issues" that need to be addressed and clarified and totally understood.
When you trying to be fair, it is very time consumming, and discussions are still on going. We purposely tried to keep it off the net and deal with it on a personal basis.
Dan and Bobs jobs suck. Luckly, most of the time we can smile and laugh about it. The worst thing about this event is rumours, and there are a ton of them. (like..." I heard that_________ is running a bogus tranny. I like him, and dont want to start $hit........")
This event is strong and will continue to be so. Organizers want to be fair and we all want to same rule book.
I want to rules to be enforeced enough to keep people away from the roll bar rule.
So Tim and Donny, I'm sorry I dragged you guys into helping me with tech. I too, love your passion, and I know your getting a lot of help from behind the scenes with your posts. Most intentions are good.
Maybe it's time we got Jim Wiese to lock this thread or maybe better.... delete it, as it is not doing the hobby any favours.
Peter:shock:

 

Before it gets locked, I made a shirt for Rich; :grin:

 

Yea... a Pro-Tree :moonu: :3gears:

Rich C.

 

Maybe a good time to start a "what`s your favorite car color" post?:idea2:

 

Sorry Steve ,But Rich won this one. That was good!:laugh:

 

I still have the same thoughts as I did in December 2008.
So I just cut and pasted the post (with some changes)...

This issue is not what constitutes pure or factory stock.
The issue is human nature.
It is human nature to always strive to do better than before (cheat?).
We are a country of immigrants for this very reason.
Our ancestors yearned for a better life.

What keeps things in check are laws, rules, guidelines, etc...

I am having a difficult time grasping what the "problem" actually is.
We go to the track, we meet great people, we share food, tools, drinks, parts, stories, etc...
And we get to race on a dragstrip all by ourselves.

Just who are we trying to satisfy?
1.Is it the media (I am sure we are not).
2.Is it the participants who find PSMCDR laughable (Maybe they should not participate).
3.Is it every loser in a 2 out of 3 match race.
4.Is it combination that doesn't make the top ten.
5. ...


That being said...
With difficult economic times with a media system that showers us only with negative news, it seems to be difficult to focus on the positive.

Lets try (again).
Every year the participant count increases (I have no proof of this).
Every year the specator count increases (weather permitting).
Every year friendships are made because of common interests.
Every year friends meet at one location from all over the country.
Every year ...
:grin:

 

Man, I was one of the guy's that got kicked out in '01 for not playing by the rules after running an et of 12.15 I was asked not to come back with that car, now you hear rumors and even know what some guy's are running and its not even within the spirit of the rules and still nothing happens. At Martin every year we go above and beyond the call to tear cars apart and then just see the ball dropped at the next race. Ken if you want someone to talk to about this at Martin come see me, I really don't understand why they kick out some and let some GO! The F.A.S.T guy's were told NO NO NO your not welcome at Staton, now you have et's in the mid 11's and it's all good. Believe me I can read the rules with the best of them and see the gray areas, so if no one is really going to tech for anything and even if you get caught nothing will happen (UNLESS IT'S ONE OF MY CARS) that's all I need to know, LET'S RACE. Like a wise man once told me, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."

 

So who made you and someone who does not even come to the race anymore the Judge and Jury of whom is a participant or organizer :gp: ? I have some issues with your statements and replies . You realize you're calling the 10th fastest smalblock of about 75 technically challenged. You realize he ran the number that makes him the 10th fastest at Stanton and at Martin! Let's get this car sorted out eh? Call him a procrastinator when it comes to spending time weeks before the race with his car tuning, call him unprepared sure but Donny wears allot of hats in his life technically challenged is not one of them your just plain wrong with that statement. Speaking of wrong, when are you planning on stepping up with a retraction or an apology for your inaccurate assessment of Donny not being involved with the Organizers and Tech people regarding this issues ? Is he guilty of screaming from the highest mountain? Sure he is passionate and tenacious when you tell him his breakdown is incorrect when he knows it is not . You wanna stick your head in the sand like an ostrich for the sake of harmony at the track then stop floating around the boards and reading all the posts on this subject.

We are all friends here you have a problem with him and his rants on other boards or here talk to him in PM or call him on the phone. I feel your response and Paul R background support was out of line and uncalled for in the way you posted it . Funny Dave and Tom jump right on the bandwagon with lifetime membership to FAST. Go for it .

Attack his math or technical response to what he has found if it is incorrect but there is no room for public personal flaming. You want Donny to shut up about this I invite you to do the math yourself and prove him wrong . Your a perfectionist and an engine master Ken I knew that the first time I visited your garage. I would be very interested in what you come up with .

I call you and your dad friend and I am just very disappointed about everything you have posted on here. And I will be honest if it was someone going after you personally like this I would be writing the same stuff..

Paul

 

AMEN Paul!!!!!!

 

Ok, one thing at a time.

For Paul. I'll ask the question again. Since when did this become the Donny Brass Drags?

Are these races a publicly traded venue? Can we buy stock in them? Meaning the more stock you buy, the more say you have? I think not! We all pay the same entry fee as PARTICIPANTS not organizers. Want all the say? Organize you own race.

As for someone who doesn't even come to the race anymore. He is perfectly capable to speak on his own. I have seen Terry and Donny both miss some races due to other obligations or any other reason they want to have. I know both of them love it so their reason for not attending must be pretty important. What makes you think Paul is gone forever?

Donny is technically challenged and so are you as am I when it comes to buiding a Hemi. I really don't care nor is it my business how many other hats he wears. I have never built a Hemi and I am willing to bet neither of you have either. Until we have real documentation on Hemi engined Impalas or Corvettes, or we are running our own race that we organized, the technical prowess of the Hemi engine is not ours. I becomes the responsibility of the organizers and the owner of the car.

At the last Martin race some infractions of the rules were found, or so I hear. COPO Pete said that the problems were discussed on a one to one basis with the owner of the car. I would expect that same consideration. My opinion is that is the way it should handled. They were allowed to run their cars which I also support. No need in wasting all their time and money to be shown the door. Just give them a chance to return with the necessary changes to the car for the next race or leave the car at home. This gives the owner a clear cut picture of what is required and gives them the choice to correct it if they chose to race the car in the future. Very Simple.

Now, I ask you, who started this thread on a PUBLIC message board about a certain Hemi (we all know whose car it is) having too much compression and beating this dead horse every day? Sound like a one to one basis to you? Sure doesn't to me. You state in your post that I should be doing this via PM or phone. Donny should practice what you preach but it is too late now, isn't it? This isn't a one way street. If any of this sounds like passion to you, you have alot to learn. No apology coming from me.

As far as where I am at during the race. I am always at the starting line when I need to be and I am certainitly not going to follow the tech crew around like some gawker at a traffic accident. Not going to waste my whole day doing that as you know how many runs COPO Pete got that day. I choose to hang at my trailer most of the time. Thats where the shade is. However, if you want to stir things up and get the ostrich to pull his head out of the sand, go for it. I am up for the challenge virtually over qualified in that venue.

Terry, I am not looking to come and talk to anybody. Go back and re-read the post. My post stated that if anyone has a problem with me, find me and we will talk about it. I'll be the ostrich at the red trailer.

If you want appoint Donny a official tech inspector, do so. I now feel that even though I race a Chevrolet, his inspection couldn't possibly be fair enough to tech any car but his own. I will require a more un-biased party.

And finally, COPO Pete. You are right Dan and Bobs jobs suck. The last thing they need is a busy body going from forum to forum punching alarms and digging for information.

 

I don't have time for a long post now, but, Mr. Vitale, I would ask you what mountaintop was Donny shouting from when you were running the big-inch motor in your car?....You see, he does have a big mouth.

As for friends... Mine wouldn't do this...

Do the math...

.

 

Ken,

I will answer your last question in a PM, And I am asking you to remove it from your post.

 

Ken, I removed your last question, and I PM'd you about it.

as far as the rest of this goes, Everybody seems to know everything about the private conversations.... Hmmmm.

Rumor mills and namecalling is OK, rumor phone calls are all cool, sending crappy anounomous emails is fine, trying to deface videos on the You Tube channel is fair game, just don't post it on an internet forum where it will bother people.

I considered the 7 foot header / Super Stock ZL1 banter an annual winter event to pass the time, Tommy said he gets a kick out of it and it would not stop us from having beers together, and I feel the same way....... all in fun for us. But this year, because of the rumors and the Martin event, my annual participation was greeted differently than in years past, and that is unfortunate.

Funny, several guys berating me in this thread have taken upon themselves to take shots at other drivers who may be outside the tech specs, and yet the message that no one should care remains.

 

ray:

 

Where to start ????

I have been a moderator on this board since it started. I have raced Supercar Showdowns, Musclecar Review sponsored drags, and the PSMCDR since 1987. The ORIGINAL PSMCDR was a mere track rental at Milan that ended with a get-to-gether at my house.

I read these posts and just shake my head. There is not a single one of us that isn't passionate about the form of racing that we have embraced for years. There's Mopar guys, there's Ford guys, and there's GM guys .... oh yea, and the Studes .......

Everyone of you needs to step back and smell the mushrooms ......

Do you realize that Dan and Bob are doing their level-headed best to make this event something that will go down in history ? They don't need this sh!t, believe me.

10 years ago-ish, I was a firm combatant with the FAST group. Today, I support them 110%. There is a lesson in there, and I am the first to admit that I was wrong back then.

"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." Benjamin Franklin

I will blow away this entire thread, regardless of a fellow moderator being a part of the discussion. It needs to make a drastic turn, and quick. Play nice.