The whole reason behind my original statement, is because I have a friend who owns a very nice 70 442, and he has received nothing but a load of crap from every Olds guy that has come to look at it(it's for sale) Car was wrecked when it was almost new, and guess what fenders it was repaired with?? You guessed it, the wrong ones. I had an Olds, and I had my share of bad experiences buying parts for mine,both from private individuals and from venders, the worst one is the guy who owns a very well known Olds website, still may meet him in person someday and when he wakes up staring at the sky, he will remember me:Smarty: I also had my dealings while trying to sell my Olds. All of these things have helped me to form my opinion. Uncle Dave, you know I have nothing but good to say about you, in fact I have nothing bad to say about any of the Olds guys that I know personally or in chatting on this board. I just had some bad run-in's when I owned mine. I know what you mean Dave about posting on an Olds site, I had my share of negative experience there too.:grin: I just want you all to have a good OLDS time!:TU: :3gears:
OOPS. Not sure how i did that. Reposted the same message 3 hours later? Sorry. Went to church in between the two. Maybe the spirit moved me.
Dave's repeating himself....oh, that's right, it's the weekend so he is resting up and must have had a rough week:laugh: I know that by opening my mouth (or keyboard) I may just be perpetuating the examples that Tom is talking about but yes, as you mentioned Tom, that kind of stuff does happen. Once again, part due to human nature (from my observations). Think about it...most everyone goes to an Olds, Buick, etc show because they love or like that particular brand. The stage has now been set. You (our theoretical show attendee) have been thrust into an environment of people, all or most of which, know quite a bit of info about the particular brand cars at the show. Now, the "competitive" environment is set by the fact that it's a judged show. Add in four additional factors: 1) People like to let people know that THEY know something 2) People like to help others..but in a twisted sort of way.... by telling the others something that the others may or may not know. After all, once the info has been told (ie "you have XYZ fenders and need ABC fenders"), no matter how it was presented (see #1 above), it is now possibly useful to the recipient. 3) People, once again by nature, generally want to feel "included" and one way to do that in a group of car nuts is to make "statements of knowledge" relating to the particular brand. 4) People love to argue sometimes (or in the case of certain people--none on this thread--- on ROP.com....all the time:rant: ) After all---the car, in its restored or shown state, could be said to be a representation of SOMEONE'S KNOWLEDGE about that particular car--if you take this to the extreme. So---by showing your car you have in effect "started the argument"-----at least that's what's going on in the mind of the guy nitpicking your car. He or she has to respond with a counterargument. People, by nature, want to think what they know is "right" and when it conflicts with what someone else presents as "right"...the "argument" starts. Don't tag all Olds people as being slimy when it comes to selling parts(I think I know who you must be talking about with the website brother).....every brand has those type people involved because, unfortunately, for the seller it's usually about the $$$ and $$$ brings out the worst in some people. Car shows, by this reasoning, are just one big argument:laugh: Racing is no different...the argument just gets expressed another way.
My father bought a very nice W-31. It was completed when we got it. So, a town in NC was having a rare Olds get-togehter. We loaded up the newly acquired 31 and drove 200 miles only to hear the first guru that looked at it say "its got the wrong fenders". No, he didn't mention that it had great paint or was correct in almost all ways. Rather he chose to degrade it. That's what I hate about showing or in this case just letting people observe a classic car. I may see something wrong but I don't have the internal need to voice my opinion to the owner. If he or she asks, yeah I will give my opinion, but I will follow it with positive comments about how good other things are on the car. No need to be negative all the time.
The rare Olds gatherings in N.C. generally have that kind of reputation. I believe if you can't say something nice to a guy about his car, just don't say anything. Some ask and then tell them if you are certain or can back it u
When I worked at the Framingham B-O-P plant in 1972, the only thing that mattered was OUTPUT. 60 car per hour, no matter what.o No: The line engineers used a process called a TMD (Temporary Manufacturing Deviation). This was a change to a bill of material or process step to allow a part substituition or a change to the manufacturing process. This allowed the line to KEEP MOVING. Quantity over quality was the norm, not the exception.:spank: Sometimes, the TMD became permanent, sometimes not. And, the factory documentation was not 100 accurate. Remember, no computers, CAD/CAM, MRP, ERP, or any other way to control configurations. So, the point here is: What is factory correct? My answers is "It depends....on the plant, the process, and the timing". Cars built in the beginning of the year will be different from cars built at the end. So, all the folks who say a car is restored to factory specs is wrong. The car is restored to how they think the factory did it. All I know is this is a hobby, so I do not get hung up on these arguements. I sit back and enjy them.....:laugh:
Paul, I decode build sheets all the time and often tell people that the cars were not always built like the build sheets say they were. Duane
You would be shocked to see how those cars were built. Shoddy would be a compliment. The line inspectors were pressured to sign off every car. The cars built on Mondays and Fridays are the worst. Some of the line workers were hard core party folks, and coming to work drunk and/or high was the norm, not the exception. When you started on the line, you got maybe 15 minutes of training. Then, you were on your own. Some of the jobs were really hard. Any of the body shop welding jobs were bad, but the lead seam grinders had it the worst. GM used molten lead on the roof seams and pillars. The grinders used air tools to smooth the seams. There was lead dust everywhere, and most of those folks ended up with lead poisoning. And, if you worked the line, you could not leave your post unless a utility man filled in. That meant that even if you had a major nature call, you had to wait. The line never stopped unless something bad happened. GM did not put an extra penny in any of those cars. Example: if you look at a set of original 4 speed pedals, they are only painted about 2/3 of the way up. The part you don't see is left bare. The same goes for under the dash and most of the brackets. The frames got a quick dusting of paint, and all the fasteners were black oxide with a coat of oil. Just enough protection to stop the rust until it got to the dealers. But the real problem was the union, especially during contract negotiations and conflicts in the plant. Cars were deliberately sabotaged to put pressure on management to force their side of the issue. If you did not follow what the union wanted, you may had had a problem in the parking lot after work. I saw dozens and dozens of cars go to the rework area during one of these disputes. The union really hardassed the management when it needed to. I was young, and $7.00 an hour was fantastic money when the minimum wage was $1.60. I had a new Camaro, a new motorcycle, and a winter car. And there was plenty of cash left over.:laugh:
Wow, it figures after spending a month trying to sort out this fender issue with 3 local Olds experts I'd find a plausible answer on V8Buick...:Brow: guess I oughta know by now...LOL...my car was sold new about 2 hrs south of me, it's been in the province it's entire life, and I still couldn't find 2 people that agreed on this issue. So I'm gonna go ahead and use the fenders off this 70 culass parts car...mine's an early 71 build from Lansing (09A) BTW, Dave H; good stories, always nice to get a picture of whats goin' on inside the line. These cars were built by human beings, and sometimes we (myself included) tend to forget that...Re: the inspection process, I once owned a 70 super bee that I purchased from the O/O in jan 78; in the glovebox (with the owner's manual and assorted paraphenelia) was a "paint inspection sheet", about 8" by 10", detailing every single flaw ("skips" "shys" "dry spray" "runs" etc.) that had made it thru the factory inspection, shipping & PDI process and was still with car...as the bee was still original paint, it was interesting to see what the inspector at Hammtrack thought was acceptable...or not!
I have judged many types of cars at shows but mostley oldsmobiles ... and I never degrade someones car.....becuase they probibly would find something wrong with mine any way.... I just want to have fun and help people out in the hobby (if possible) thats all Dave:TU:
