Ram Air 4 low et.

Discussion in 'The "Pure" Stockers' started by ndrach, Aug 8, 2005.

  1. ndrach

    ndrach Well-Known Member

    Can anyone think of a faster (lower) et than 12.77 at 109 for a RA4 Pontiac. Either GTO or Trans Am I,m sure thats the number that John Glasgo ran back in 2003 at Stanton. I heard there is a 69 Judge on the east coast running 12,90 something. I was just wondering :Do No:
     
  2. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    Yeah thats me. I have run a best of a 12.86@107 mph at a car weight of 4070 with me in it. Factory Stock. John Glasgo is my hero.

    I have 3 other RAIV cars, all of them run 13.20 - 12.95's
    I actually got bored with all of them running around the same times, so I installed headers on one of them and went 12.48@109
    -----------------------------------------------------
    The new issue of Muscle Car Enthusiast magazine has a dyno shootout involving 2 Pontiac motors.
    RAM AIR 3 versus RAM AIR 4. These were assembled using all stock parts and no-porting. This was under the watchful eye of Dan Jensen, one of the organizers of the Pure Stock Drags. Dan is a good guy and knows his stuff.

    RAIII motor...... 380HP @ 4500 before tweaking

    RAIV motor........ 427HP @ 6000 before tweaking!

    These measurements are through the factory Ram Air exhausts!! No headers!! and No lightweight pistons or rods!!
    ------------------------------
    After jetting, timing,and other minor tweakes:

    The RAIII motor still produced about the same power
    The RAIV motor best was 446HP @ 5900 rpm!!
    ------------------------------
    I have always thought they were one of the strongest street motor combinations out there.

    http://www.stockappearingdrags.com
     
  3. rdl

    rdl ...stocker 'n stocker

    Is that in the September issue?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2005
  4. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    Yes thats right, New Camaro is on the cover
     
  5. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    RA IV ET's and Dyno Test

    I wrote the article in MCE. And that motor will be going into my '70 RA IV Judge with an updated exhuast also. It was going into my '70 RA IV T/A but we had a change of plans.

    The Judge currently runs consistant low 12.80's with a best at the Pure Stocks of a 12.802 @ 111.87. That motor is completely stock with just a +.030 bore. Stock cam, 72cc heads...

    So far it is the fastest RA IV ever at the Pure Stock/Factory Stock rounds. The new motor hopefully moves her down some more.

    Mark
     
  6. rdl

    rdl ...stocker 'n stocker

    The irony is that Tony Goodman's more modest R/A II has already set the benchmark @ 12.3x in an F-body. You've got some work ahead, but I'm pulling for ya' too. :TU:
     
  7. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    RA II Bird

    Unfortunately Tony sold his bird. It was a real HO car converted to a RA II. It was exceptionally good.

    Dan and I have kicked it around what would beat Tony's car/run with the Chevy's/Mopar's and we felt it could be my '70 RA IV bird or a '69 RA IV bird and not much else stood a chance.

    Dan is running consistant 12.40/50's in the new T-37 so he is getting close.

    Unfortunately my RA IV Judge gives up 500 lbs (3525 lbs to 4030 lbs) to Tony's bird so I am certian we can never go as fast as Tony has. The '68 birds are a great package of low weight and good chassis. The '70 T/A would split the difference in wt. b/t the Judge and RA II but as it is a real blue 4spd w/23,000 miles and I am the second owner we thought it may be best not to race the car due to the value. As the Judge has several seasons of racing I feel a bit less uptight on its use and I know have a race motor looking for a home. The Judge won the rights to the motor.

    I personally picked up a '68 RA II project for the future to race. If you can't beat them...

    Thanks for the good wishes. We will need them.

    Mark
     
  8. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    I think Mark Weymouth ,Tony Goodman, John Glasgo, Dan Jensen, Pat Wendling and quite a few others have shown that 400 cubes of Pontiac RAIV is a very strong combination.


    I may be wrong, but I don't think in Factory Stock configuration, you can expect to get much more that a 12.30- 12.50 out of these motors. I find that they MPH really well, and have a strong top end, but asking 400 cubes in a avg weight 60's muscle car to do 11's is tough. Especially if you haven't bumped the compression ratio up.
    -------------------------------------------------
    If Pontiac would have made a high compression 455 HO motor in 1970, with the right cam, that would have be a real street cleaner.

    But in reality, the 400 RAIV was doing just fine on its own.



    Oh yeah, Mark your my new hero :3gears:
     
  9. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    Mark it seems we are thinking the same thing.

    I am currently in the process of building/ restoring a 69' RAIV Trans Am.
    I have weighed the car and it looks to be 3400 lbs without me in it. Not a bad starting point. I am looking for mid 12's whenever it is completed, probably by next year.

    I believe this OR a 73 455 SD would be the best chance in these type of events. Although the 73 T/A's are heavy, a tweaked, high compression 455SD motor would be no slouch!
     
  10. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    Sd 455

    Gonzo, I missed the earlier hero comment... I am humbled.

    The SD is enticing but not going to work. A future dyno article I am currently writing (started at lunch) for MCE is a dual between a 455 SD and a 455 HO. Both pushed to NHRA limits with many cams tested with the two winners being my own design. Both motors could be cert'd at Dan's race.

    Dan built the twin to the HO tested. The one he is running currently in the mid 12's with. Paul's SD (driven by Dennis Jensen) which went well quicker than any before it this spring at the Martin FAST round in bad weather was still not enough for Dan. I do think that on the right day (this fall at Stanton?) Paul should be able to be the first into the 12's with an SD.

    I do not want to give anymore away than that. Change gears to a '71 455 HO Formula and you might hit a homer.

    In the end you will be very impressed with how these two motors stack up with the RA III/RA IV motors.

    I can not wait for your '69 RA IV T/A. If you need any help let me know. Dan and I have lots of days on the dyno with RA IV's. We have pulled enough cams to sink a battle ship. I would love to see her run deep 12's. I have no issues not being the fastest Pontiac as long as we can keep getting our Indian's to go faster and at least give the other brands a good run.

    I agree with you that the 11's are just not in the cards for our 400's. Shame but true. Still they stand pretty tall even giving up a lot of cubes to the competition.

    Mark
     
  11. Tom Miller

    Tom Miller Old car enthusiast

    Lot's of talk about 400's & 455's

    Anybody ever heard of a 350H.O. :Brow:

    I wonder what a radio/heater deleted 69 Firebird weigh's? I should know soon.
    :3gears:

    Mark, got any idea's on a replacement cam grind?

    If the Mopars use B.K. cams, I guess the Pontiacs can use a M.W. cam,huh?
     
  12. BlackGold

    BlackGold Well-Known Member

    Mark,

    Since you brought it up, could you please educate me (us) on how much latitude there is with cam design and how a cam is certified for Pure Stock. You obviously have a lot of experience in this area. I'm not looking for details on your own cams' timing events, just how exactly "stock" is defined. Thanks.
     
  13. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    "The SD is enticing but not going to work"

    Hmmmm...... I know the 73 T/A's are about 400 lbs heavier then the 69's
    But a High compression SD 455 should be a screamer. The heads are very similar to RAIV heads, infact a little better. However they do have big chambers. So unfortunately you have to use domes to get the compression up. The intake is made out of cast iron, a slight negative, however the exhaust is ever so slightly larger then the GTO style RAIV exhaust.

    Seems like its slightly better performance wise then a RAIV, but unfortunately its in a heavier car. I actually have a 455SD car as well. (I'm like a pack rat)
    120 K miles, and its never been rebuilt, the car needs a resto as well. One of those " I'll get around to it next year" projects.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes Tom there was a 350 HO Pontiac. I believe the notorious Rock & Roll Engineering built one for a Engine Masters Showdown, in a auto magazine.

    But that is kind of a one-off motor, and nobody builds them for strip machines.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Camshafts What is stock? well at the risk of being flamed......here goes...............

    Once upon a time their were stock OEM cams, then there were repro OEM cams, then there were manufacturers versions of Muscle car OEM cams....each time, slight improvements were made in design.

    Now there are interesting new cams, that are being used that will give perfect OEM lift numbers when read static, but when you kick up the RPM's the lifter through "controlled valve float" jumps the lobe ................meaning a .400 lift cam is now a .500 lift cam and so on.
    These cams will look absolutely factory stock when valve lift is measured.

    I do NOT believe these are being used by any Pontiac drivers. But I know they are being made for other more popular marques.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Pure/Factory cars are getting quicker every year.......hmmmmm
    Looks and Sounds alot like FAST class to me.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    At my own race www.stockappearingdrags.com I quit trying to certify and hard tech each and every car. Bottom line is no one wants to go slower, therefore racers will be racers and find a way to get around rules.
    I used to think that I would have strict Factory Stock Rules and conform to actual 60's specs...but I believe you are chasing a ghost. You can't bring back the actual 60's....so why not let everyone enjoy themselves and have a good event. How close are these cars to actual stock....some very close...some not even close. Ever seen any magazine articles in the 60's of cars running 11's on bias ply's in showroom condition....me neither.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2005
  14. ndrach

    ndrach Well-Known Member

    Gonzo, are you coming to Stanton? I would love to see your car(s). Judging from the above posts it looks like the et,s this year may drop. Also does anyone know if Tony Goodman is bring another car? Or is the new owner bringing Tony,s old car?.More info please. :Comp: Also it looks like John,s 12.77 in the quickest so far. I think the year he ran those times he raced Casey,s Olds w31 in the finals. This looks to be a GREAT year for fast RA4S, HO,S and SD,S And then there,s that guy who is a fan of all things Pontiac that is quitely planning and working on a 68 H/O (Hurst Olds) :TU: Now let me see there did I put that rule book. :laugh:
     
  15. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    I am trying to see if I can make Stanton. Its mom's 70 birthday that weekend, and the family is planning on a big surprise dinner thing, but I am trying to weasel out of it :eek2: But it looks like I might have to show :ball:

    ---------------------
    I don't care who's the quickest, I just love to see those round port Poncho's surprise everyone. They are always underestimated, because hardly anyone outside of Pontiac circles knows what a RAIV car is.
    ---------------------
    When I first got my first RAIV 69' GTO from South Carolina it had 88,000 miles on it, an original un-restored car. When it arrived I registered it at motor vehicle, and drove it from there 75 miles to westhampton dragway on Long Island that day! I ran a 13.62@99 right out of the gate first run!
    A guy comes over to me in the pits, and asks what cam I am running, I say this was an original car that I just bought, he looked at me, like I was telling him a tall story!! I tell him its a factory stocker, and he gives me an eye, and walks away in dis-belief!?!

    This is typical of the non-pontiac knowledgeable racing crowd.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
     
  16. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    Cam Rules

    Black Gold your cam question is a very good one. Plus Gonzo's answer is very true. Today it is very difficult to get a true original grind. Mopar Performance is using Chevy lobes, Pontiac has very little available anymore, and so on.

    With this in mind I have tried to do exactly what the Mopar camp has done and that is take original cams and replicate them as closely as humanly possible. No voodoo or non-sense like "controlled valve float". I argue, maybe wrongly, that we need to be more strict on certified cars. I have argued along with Brian S. that bore scopes are a good idea, checking auto trans's for light wt. parts... That would stop all the knife edge cranks, aluminum drums in autos and the like. I have a gut feel that some of those items have started making an appearance. NO PROOF mind you, just a gut feel. So no one go out there saying I said there is cheating PLEASE. Particularly as Dan and Bob do a magnificient job with thier race. And everyone enjoys it so much, so I do not want to start a firestorm when none is due. I just advocate for myself personally that staying as stock as possible by rules and intent is the best way to find the true pecking order for these cars. And there is one, so why get upset if your car is ultimately 0.2 off the best cars runnning. Did it go quick for your combo? Did you have fun? Those are really the only questions that need to be answered.

    Off the soap box and back to the cam. Dan's rules are +/- 1% on duration at .050 off on duration with NHRA lift specs as the maximum lift. No squared of NHRA cheater cams.

    Again if you go back to the RA IV/III article the best cam was not the RAIV blue print cam, or the modern lobe cam, but the original we used. I have seen this time and again. NHRA cheater cams just do not work on stock manifolded Pontiacs.

    I flowed my heads and they maxed out at .520 inch of lift on the exhuast. The NHRA lift limit is .538. The problem is they were tumbling and reverting flow after .520. If we had maxed the lift out we would have lost power. Just so happens the original cam is at .516 lift. So it worked out perfect for this particular set of heads.

    I hope this helps. When Dan and I work together on cams we are looking to replicate the origianl not reinvent the wheel.

    The SD cam came in 1 degree high on the exhuast duration with correct original lift. As no one makes a SD cam we had to make one for this application. It was 1 degree off the original when we measured it. So atleast as accurate as Pontiac was making. The HO cam also cam in 1 degree off on exhuast with lift being higher on the intake than exhuast just like the original. Nothing special. Just with careful set up these Pontiacs make good power.

    We ended up with 9.2 to 1 compression on the SD. Which stays legal for certing. As I would not exceed the correct blueprint compression the cam is very large on duration for the compression. I feel this is what hurts the SD's. So your idea of a truely high compression SD would likely make it more potent than a RA IV just like you felt.

    I think John went 12.87 @ 109+ in the T/A. I will have to look as I have all the race results saved. He was the first into the twelves as I remember also. He beat me by one round. I loved his T/A. Wish it was still around, becuase by now I bet he could have had it really running some numbers to make us Pontiac guys proud. Let's hope all these Pontiac's have a good fall. Here's to hoping we have a large group in the 12's.

    Mark
     
  17. BlackGold

    BlackGold Well-Known Member

    Very well put, Mark. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. And I certainly wasn't looking to start a firestorm, either. Just trying to figure out what "stock" is, you know? Unless some cam manufacturer convinces me they're still using the same master as back in the 60s, I'll always be skeptical that any cam sold today is stock.

    You say the duration is measured at .050". Has Dan made measurements on original OEM cams to set the rules? I know at least for Oldsmobile the .050" numbers were not published by the factory. I suspect that's true for most makes. And are any other points on teh curve checked? You can draw a lot of different shaped curves through the three critical points of .050 openning, max lift at centerline, and .050 closing.

    By the way, thanks for the article in Musclecar Enthusiast. Well-writen and informative.
     
  18. rdl

    rdl ...stocker 'n stocker

    Right. ... but I'll continue to anchor us squarely in the 14's just for the sake of modesty. I know, I know: the sacrifices I have to make to keep the peace around here. :grin:
     
  19. GONZO

    GONZO Well-Known Member

    No firestorm, not saying anyone is cheating.
    However the means to cheat is available. It will be a continuing battle, that I don't believe can be ultimately won, That is "what is legal and what isn't."

    The Pure Stock Drags is a great series, and lets hope ot forever continues and guys always go out and drive em' like they were meant to.
     
  20. JLerum

    JLerum 1970 LS-6 Chevelle

    cams

    The only way you're going to really keep the cams in check is to use a cam doctor at certification. The contraption can measure a lobe start to finish while hooked up to a computer. It can draw the lobe and you could even place one lobe over the other to see the difference in shapes.

    It costs money, time, and research on behalf of the organizers. To make it even more difficult lobes would have to be negociated to set what the master lobe would be for comparison. At what point do Dan and Bob say we're out because of the hastles involved. In a perfect world it needs to be done. We're not in that perfect world so we can only dream and discuss.

    Things will probably get worse as different groups feel that rules aren't being followed by the compatition and vise versa. A line will need to be drawn in the sand. The easiest way to solve the tenson would be a valve spring rule. Since valve spring preasures are listed from the manufacture they could be instituted as part of the rules. This is an easier way to curb the use of lobe technology.

    An alternative would be to let a .050 rule stock lobe height and designated stock lifter be the only rule of a cam. It would result in high dollar and quick cars. It would be a NASCAR team thing as the the brand loyal guys would need to share info with each other to (try) make it affordable to try to dominate.

    Reality kind of sucks at times.

    JIM

    EDIT: It kind of reminds me when Wayne ran an 11.99 in his Corvette 2 years ago. You should of heard all the screaming going on about that cam card that was just a little off on the duration. If I remember that cam was short 6 degrees durations. The rest is history!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2005

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