I am going to pull the engine and trans from my Cat and have them rebuilt by a good Buick rebuilder. The deal is in the works, but not yet finalized. Here is my laundry list of items for a little bit better than stock rebuild. Thanks Rebuild engine: Disassemble engine replace all soft parts throughout, like gaskets and seals replace rings and all bearings replace timing chain and gears replace timing cover with TA Performance new cover replace water pump check cylinder roundness, rods and pistons grind crankshaft replace head gaskets replace camshaft complete valve job, updating to Stage 1 specs or better new valves and springs rebuild NM carb and reinstall any other items required for a complete rebuild shop supplies run engine to break in the new cam and adjust for best operation strip, sandblast and paint engine to original specs in original colors Rebuild transmission: Disassemble replace all soft parts, seals and gaskets inspect for wear replace internal parts as indicated install shift improvement kit install adjustable vacuum modulator check trans modulator clean and paint as needed any other items required for a complete rebuild Did I leave anything out?
Most likely will need bored . Use a torque plate. Big valves are not important choosing the right cam is.
It only has 66000 miles and runs fine. I think we are planning to reuse the pistons if we can. Mistake?
Frank Never use old pistons. Period. There is no way the cylinders aren't out of round, and the only way to correct this condition, and maintain the proper cast piston piston to bore clearance is to bore and hone the cylinders, and install oversize pistons. Your thread title is correct in calling what your asking about an "overhaul", but later your refer to this as a "rebuild". But a rebuild requires that the iron be machined.. an overhaul simply replaces gaskets, seals and soft parts. That's a very common misconception. I am no fan of the "inexpensive overhaul". Or "cheap parts" rebuild for that matter.. Simply put, if you have an engine that is running fine, good oil pressure, no noise or oil usage, then your more likely to create a problem by trying to replace a few parts here and there, without re-machining the critical dimensions and fits. New rings rarely seat well in old bores, new bearings don't like holes that are no longer round, new gaskets don't like warped surfaces. Lower quality parts, than what the factory put in... All potential problems. You have to understand that bearings "run in" and develop a surface hardness, and they will compensate slowly as the housings go out of round, to a point, and be just fine. Until you put a new bearing in that distorted hole, and then your asking for problems... Run fast and far from anyone who tells you that you don't have to align hone the mains, or use a torque plate on the cylinders. Your engine has 38 years of heat cycles, and that is what makes the housings and bores go out of round. A good quality rebuild should cost you about 6 K, you start adding things like Stage 1 conversions, carb and distrib rebuilds, and TA timing covers, your more in the 7-8K territory. Get a detailed, line by line estimate for your engine rebuild, listing every part, manufacturer of the part, the part number, decription of the machining proceedures, and then the price of each item and service, so you know exactly what you are getting. Get it from 3 or 4 vendors, who know Buick engines, and then you can compare what your actually getting. If your builder won't sit down and take the time to put that together, then he doesn't want your business that bad. He wants you to "trust him"--- Do not do that! There is a wide gap between price and value sometimes. Cheap parts keep the price down, but also reduce the actual value of what you are doing. And can lead you to a place where you had a good running 60K Motor, now you have one that uses oil, and performs poorly. Example- I can sell you rings for your motor for $65 or for $160... and you better believe the latter ones are worth the extra $100. But even those rings won't seal in an out of round bore. There is just no shortcut in the bottom end. My advice to you in particular, with your 60K engine, is that if it shows no signs of wear, then take the intake, oil pan, heads and timing cover off it, replace the cam and lifters and timing chain, put a new TA cover on it if your so inclined, rebuild the heads, paint it up,and call it a day.. pay attention to the rockers, they wear out the aluminum shafts- if they are worn, put a set of the later steel ones on it. But don't take apart the shortblock, and disturb the ring seal and bearings, unless your going to re-machine the iron. If the rear main is leaking, then you don't have any option but to rebuild the motor, which includes a line hone, bore and hone, complete cleaning, rod resize with ARP bolts ----------- As far as the trans goes, - well, transmission cases are painted (any other color than a little clear maybe) for one reason- they aren't clean. This is a shortcut that a lot of builders use these days, but if he's not going to bother to spend the time to clean the case, they do you really think your builder is going to worry if the direct clutch clearance is .045 or .065?... Is he going to bother to use the $85 Trans go 400-1/2 kit, with it's unique spacer plate the eliminates the real problem with the TH 400 (direct clutch durability)? Is he upgrading the torrington bearings in the planetary to the later ones, with twice as many rollers? Or is he really just solvent washing and painting the case silver (or black), throwing in some new seals, gaskets and clutches and presenting it as "rebuilt". And yet doing it for nearly the same price as you can get a quality, performance rebuild for? On the trans, I would want a complete list, with part numbers, of what is going in my trans, and what proceedures would be followed. JW
:TU: Hey Jim...How about a ballpark for a pure stock motor and trans that will put my car in the 12's :laugh: I don't want to be an embrassment to the Buick Brothers. Jim (Stage1 auto)
Jim - that was an awesome response! You say: "A good quality rebuild should cost you about 6 K" My first question is: How does that break down between parts and labor? My second question is clearly out of place since this is the Street/strip 400/430/455 section, but: How does the pricing compare to rebuilding a 300, and are "good" parts available for the 300? This board is well worth my contribution due to threads like this! Thanks again Jim! Best Wishes,
It was a good response. I am planning to go over those points with my guy here and see what he says. Thanks
Hey Jim, I happen to be building such a creature right now, for a fellow board member. With your cores, about $8700 for the motor ( complete, fully assembled and dyno tested, including concourse carb rebuild.) This is the motor for the PSMCDR guys. Built to NHRA specs. (13-1 compression :idea2: ) I would recommend my Level 2 trans assembly, that's $895 from your core. Stage 1- Legal PSMCDR converter - $275.00 In the next post I list out componets and the price breakdowns to answer another question. JW
PSMCDR engine breakdown- 300 Buick info Jim asked about the PSMCDR engine (Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race), and since I have that 5 page estimate right here at my fingertips, let's talk about some realistic numbers for quality block machine work, mods and assembly, including all the good parts that it takes to get there. I have always stayed away from overt advertsing in the tech sections of this board, but there is no way to talk parts and proceedures inteligently, without listing prices.. so please excuse the post if you see this as "advertising". I think it's important to discuss this issue, in detail, with some numbers, so we can get a fix on what a real rebuild should be costing. Engines more stock that this will be somewhat less (a couple grand maybe) engines more exotic will be more (most expensive engine I have built was $21K) but you should consider about $7500-8K the baseline cost of a fully rebuilt 455 hot rod motor, from your cores, with some of your good parts (ignition and carb), with a STG 1 conversion a steet/strip port and a few goodies. __________ So let's look at this PSMCDR engine- It's 13-1 compression, uses all the best parts, has no porting, and appears to be completely stock. Keep in mind, this is a complete engine, not a long block, without a timing cover, intake, carb, ignition ect.. The only thing not on this engine are the exhaust manifolds. ------------- Shortblock machine work to build that PSMCDR engine $1800 This includes my block cleanup work that you can literally eat off when it done. Buick 455 designer Cliff Studaker saw one in the shop here, and asked me where I was getting "new blocks".. :TU: I thought that was a great compliment, and then I explained to him our 4 step cleanup process. That also gets you: Squared and decked block with BHJ Fixture- .010 deck height per NHRA rules Sonic checked block with sheet Bored and Honed with BHJ deck plate Align honed mains to my spec size Magnufluxed the Rods and Crank Very picky selection of Rod cores to use- rarely can I use all the customers, due to mis location of both the big and small end by the factory- Rods are selected and resized to be within .002 in length of each other when finished Mock up assembly to set bearing clearances precisely Spec ground and polished crankshaft- unless otherwise requested, I will use only a virgin crank on my engines, and turn it to the correct .010 under size- Crank throws are indexed for precision stoke adjustments Pin Fit the new pistons Assemble new pistons and rods Completely and precisely balance the rotating assembly This is a .010 deck block, with heavily milled cylinder heads per NHRA specs, so the end rails of the block are milled, with mock up assemblies, to precisely fit the original factory intake manifold end seals. I like to leave the silicone in the tube.. :rant: Here's the parts for the shortblock. These are at, or below nationally advertised list prices from various vendors, (mostly TA Performance). I don't mark up parts past retail, like many shops do. Parts cost for the PSMCDR Engine Shortblock $1980.00 This includes: TA 1559 cam bearings Brass freeze plugs, steel pipe plug for the LH deck oil hole on a 455 Threaded front oil galley plugs- TA ACL Main bearing set ACL Rod bearing set TA rear main seal- neoprene JE Forged race pistons- proprietary specs for this engine combo Speed Pro Plasma molly rings- file fit ARP con rod bolts TA Perf cam- custom for this combo Delphi Hydraulic "check ball" lifters- TA/Rollmaster Billet timing chain- .006 undersize Reproduction TA Stock Harmonic balancer New Stock reproduction flexplate TA Perf Reproduction Stock oil pan Shortblock assembly/Modification labor $840 Includes: complete mock up to insure deck height, complete measurements to confirm bearing clearances, and piston to wall clearances Cam degreeing- on at least 4 cylinders- to insure correctly ground camshaft Complete 455 oil passage modifications Complete "dressing of the block"- Galley plugs and adapters, frost plugs, deck oil hole plug, cam bearing installation and camshaft test fit and spin tested with custom built proprietary tooling and techniques (I have never lost a cam bearing in an engine, since I built this tool 9 years (and 50+ motors) ago Complete Assembly with file fit rings, proprietary assembly tools, techniques and lubricants ----------------------------------- PSMCDR Cylinder heads- Stage 1 conversion 786 or 661 castings (depending on which core you have) - NHRA Legal Parts Cost: $437.00 Includes: K-line bronze valve guide liners TA Perf STG 1 Valve set (TA 1430A) TA STG 1 Plus Single valve springs with Damper TA 1450 Moly retainers TA 1434 Locks Viton valve seals- 16 Spring cups for precision location and height of springs Head Labor- PSMCDR engine- Stage 1 conversion-no porting or chamber work allowed (Per NHRA rules) $996.00 Includes: Complete cleanup to like new condition- pressure testing, all bolt holes chased Install and precision wet hone valve guide liners Rough in STG 1 valves, with throat and chamber radius cuts NHRA legal Hi Perf valve job Cut guides for .500 Viton seals Cut spring pads for spring cups Mill heads to CC spec- deck side Mill intake side of heads to re-fit intake manifold Mill exhaust side of heads to insure leak free seal Plug exhaust crossovers Check and set spring heights, and assemble cylinder heads Remainder of valve train parts: $475 Includes: custom length TA 1523 push rods Steel rocker arm kit TA Roller rocker shaft hold down stud kit and clamps Reproduction correct year Stamped Steel chrome "Stage 1" valve covers, oil cap, breather grommet ---------------------- Timing cover- Built from your Stock late model cover (if available) These are becoming scarce, that don't have a worn pump housing, or are not full of broken bolts or heavy corrosion damage- if we can't get a usable one, then I have to get a new TA cover at extra cost($440) $325 Includes: Full like new cleanup, inspection, re-tapping or heli-coil bolt holes are as required Precision oil pump assembly and modifications Parts- Stock, inspected and modified gear kit, booster plate, TA shim kit, Adjustable regulator if desired, or specially modified relief spring settings New water pump Intake and fuel system parts and labor $772.50 Includes: Like new cleanup on Iron intake manifold Valley pan Complete concours Q-jet rebuild - custom jetting/modification per application New STG 1 Fuel pump Reproduction pump to carb line Ignition system $275.00 Includes: Complete stock points distrib rebuild, conversion to Crane XR-1 electronic kit, custom advance curve, new stock appearing cap and rotor NGK V-power spark plugs Reproduction spark plug wires Stock appearing wire holders Final engine assembly- dyno prep $250.00 Includes: Install cylinder heads, timing cover/water pump Install push rods, rockers, valve covers Install intake manifold Install fuel pump, carb and misc Prep for dyno session Misc parts/dyno testing $625 Includes: Complete Fel-pro Gasket set Brad Penn Break-in oil- 30 wt AC oil filter Full 5 hour dyno session, with complete documentation dyno test fuel So that's the breakdown of the parts and procedures, to build that PSMCDR engine. That particular engine uses some fairly expensive parts, and requires extensive deck and head milling, and engine re-fitting. You guys can check me, but that comes to right around $8700. This does not include core charges, crating, shipping, shop supplies ect ect.. It also does not include new external engine fasteners- most hot rod motors are getting a complete compliment of the TA/ARP chrome Moly fasteners now, at a cost of approx $180. This is a PSMCDR engine so it must appear stock. You get back to that 6K motor, by using much less expensive cast pistons, just thermal cleaning and steelabrating the block, stock replacement timing chain sets, squared by not zero decked block, no conours carb rebuild ect ect.. it does all add up. You lessen your costs more if you have a re-usable ignition system and components. But I can tell you, there isn't a whole lot here you can "skip" and actually "rebuild" a 455, with good quality parts. Core charges- I include this for your reference.. and so you can see that buying that complete 70 455 for $400 is a great deal these days.. if and I do mean if all the parts are usable.. In the past I have hauled trailer loads of 455 motors back to the shop, from all over the country, and I would estimate that about 1/4 of the cores I have bought, have had some amount of damaged, unusable parts in them. Cranks, rods, blocks.. and I don't keep junk, heavily rusted, corroded, or burnt up stuff goes right into the scrap heap. 70 455 block, (738) - $325 71-74 (861,735) 455 block- $200 75-76 (735) 455 block- $250 67-76 Virgin 455 crankshaft- $200 67-76 Already undersize crank- $100 67-76 455 stock rods- select- $10 each 67-8 Big port iron heads- $100 each 69-71 Iron heads, standard valve- $75 each 72-74 Iron heads, standard valve- $50 each 67 LH exhaust manifold- $100 68-74 LH exhaust manifold $25 67-76 RH exhaust manifold- $25 70-71 Intake manifold- $125 71-76 Timing cover- $150 Engines are shipped by truck freight, in a custom pallet/box on a custom engine cradle. Crating is $75. cradle is no charge, and truck freight ranges from $300 to $550, to the cont. US, depending on how far you are from 55303.. Now, if someone is telling you that can professionally rebuild any 455 engine, for $4K... then I can tell you, it's just not happening.(unless your related to him, and he owns a machine shop) It takes me, on average 30-45 hours in the shop here, to build and dyno these engines, after all the machine work is complete. Now your better informed as to what it takes to "rebuild" a performance and stock 455. ----------------- I am by no means a 300 expert, in fact never have had anyone ask.. so I don't have any hard numbers- it appears that most of the parts are available, and I would suspect that price would be similar to a stock rebuild on a 455 (6K) Thank you for your participation, and support of the board here. JW
Re: PSMCDR engine breakdown- 300 Buick info Hey Jim, Thank you again! You have just added a few years to my restoration while I wait for the stock market to add more than it subtracts from my pocket! I hope nobody considers your thorough discussion as "advertising". What you have done has given guys like myself (a novice at best) a much clearer understanding of the process and anticipated costs associated with restoring/rebuilding the key components of any car. The body can look great, but more embarrasing than a ripple in the paint is a pulled over "classic" with the hood up! Best Wishes,
Wow Jim, What a great post!!!!!!:beer Thanks for sharing all the hard work done on all your engines, it's eye opening:shock: . Also great job with this Board!!!!! Thanks, Denis
This thread turned into a lesson on how to do a perfect, high dollar rebuild, and I hope everyone learned something. Now the fun starts! I started removing the front components yesterday and finished up today. It is amazing what you can do in 2 hours or so! I will pull the motor and trans as a unit tomorrow afternoon. I love working on these cars... BTW the fluid is what happens when you let your PS reservoir tilt over...
Remember 2 hours of taking apart is equal to 6 hours putting back together. Seems to work kind of like dog years. Rick .....nice pink floor jack! :Brow:
I have to pick on you.....I don't have anything else to do ever since the Ags got booted out of the tournament. The rebuild looks like fun. Wish I was there to personally harass you.:laugh: Go Sips! Take the Texas flag to the final 4. Rick
Got the engine/trans out today-- piece of cake. 3 hours total, and it's the first time for my oldest son (19) to do any of this, so I had to explain everything. He is a fast learner, that's for sure! Lots of clean-up to do... lots of money to spend!ou:
Jim, What a great post on the build info. I hope every really appreciates this. I will have a good build for my street 430 but I know it will not equal this. My machinist is not related to me but is the Machine shop mgr for one of our stores (CARQUEST) and it one of our best in the country. Frank, nice to see your 19 year old "in the grease" with you. My son is 9 and has not quite taken to the car thing yet. He likes my 68 Wildcat because it was my first car and he is very nostalgic with everything. I am hoping he will become a car guy/gear head later. Nothing better for a young man to do IMO. Oh yea, and it is good to see your son working on a real car and not a ricer. I do have one other question, a pink floor jack? o No: Don't think I have ever seen one of these.
