slip n slide

Discussion in 'Got gears?' started by BubbaJ, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    IMG_0773.JPG I searched a couple times with no luck in finding this particular answer so I hope I didn't miss it somewhere else.
    I have the Buick 8.2 rear with Set9 bearings in my 69. While painfully doing a disc brake conversion, I've had to remove and replace the bearing set. I noticed that the race in the axle tube became loose when fully seated. It didn't take much to get it started and I expected it to tighten or at least stay tight as I reached the seat. Not the case. Once in there, I could spin the race with my finger. The race will not slide completely out but can be pulled easily. Other forums have different suggestions like using locktite or nicking the housing with a punch. I don't think either is a good answer but asking the question. I know that Monzaz (Jim) and Brian have seen this in their world so hoping they will give me good news. Do I leave it like it is or am I looking for a new rear?
     
  2. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD"

    I don't believe you can remove and then re install those bearings. Once you remove them, you ruin them is what I understand. It is a bolt in axle so the bearing presses onto the axle, but the bearing with race doesn't press into the axle tube. From what I have read, once the retaing collar is on, you can't get the bearing off without damaging it. I've seen Monzaz advise people to install the retainer plate, bearing, and seal on the axle, then put the axle in and check end play. If end play is excessive, you can still get the bearing off intact. If everything is good, then put the retainer collar on. Once that collar is on, you can't get the bearing off without damage. There is an issue with seal thickness, 2146 and 712146. One is .460", the other is .490" Putting the wrong seal on causes extra end play.

    I might be all wrong on this, if I am, Jim will correct me.:)
     
  3. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    The races on a A9 TAPERED bearing are remove able and if you pull it out you can just put baCK IN YOU should keep the races with thier particular maTCHING BEARING THOUGH.
    I HATE THIS F'ING caps key!!!!!1
    every time I hit a 'A' i hit the caps at the same time. KEY S are too small........ :(

    Also the bearings are a SLIP fit not a press fit. so that is fine. NOT need to worry there.
    The trouble is getting your end play correct.
    being a 69 you might be using a 2146 not a 712146

    BUT as with the world of aftermarket parts EVERYTHING can be all off for sure. :(
    2146 .460 -.465 thickness
    712146 .490 - .495

    Timkin has NOW started to manufacture their seals in Taiwan and they are .470 :( crapper....!!!

    If you find ones made in Mexico they could be the correct width at .490

    Jim
    JD RACE
     
    300sbb_overkill likes this.
  4. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    Thanks Jim, I am using the Timken bearings and seals (712146). My concern was the race moving around like that. So if that is all good, I'll be putting this thing back together on the weekend. I'll double check the seal. I thought it said .490.. I wonder if there is a way to add .020 to the retainer if it is the .470, HMMM. You would think Timken would insist on the dimensions to be correct.

    And Larry, no doubt- when you remove these bearings, you will never want to trust them again. Most folks cut them to get them off quicker. The collar has to be cut and chiseled off so that is trash anyway. Once assembled, you can test end play and the axle will remove easily. The newer set9 bearings are now a "cartridge" bearing but the ring that keeps the cone against the race can easily be removed. This allows the race to separate from the cone.

    Thanks for the good news!

    Jim, just pop the key top off that caps lock, will be harder to hit that way :cool:
     
    Darron72Skylark likes this.
  5. BrianTrick

    BrianTrick Brian Trick

    So far,still getting the Mexico seals. I also get the National Mexico seals. I know what you mean though. I have seen some very questionable seals lately.
     
  6. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    PROBLEM here is THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE THICKNESS IS OR CARES... I called them and they will do NOTHING... I asked WHY switch the dimensions? He could not giove an answer...This was suppose to be someone who know what was going on at Timkin...LOL... What a JOKE


    I can only tell you all to keep calling them and bugging them to change it back to the Mexico plant specs of .490....MAYBE the squeaky wheel will get the oil??? Maybe not. :(
     
  7. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    I just ordered another complete set with seals for both sides. RockAuto had the best deal so I should know about the thickness later this week. According to the shop manual, the end play should be less than .018" so that's a tight fit. I'll put pics in the members rides once I get this figured out..
     
  8. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    NOT ROCK... I sent back all 50 seal timkin I got from there. They were all wrong thickness.... .470 Made in Taiwan. If you see one from Mexico open that one and see if it is black with silver rim ...probably will be good.
     
  9. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    CRAP!!! TAIWAN! :mad:
    now I'm on the hunt again
     
  10. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    So, the Timken (National) seal is not the correct size to start with? This .pdf says .470 so I guess they are making them to spec..
    I'll do some measuring and see if I can make them work.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Yah .020 difference from original GM .490
     
  12. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    OK. So does anyone have the original seal part number or know where I could find it? I want to see all the specs on that original seal.
    I just pulled one off the donor car and it has a part number of 16735. It also has a CR but I assume that is a manufacturer.
    And by the way.. I believe I can make up the difference of .020" by making the spacer (that replaces the original brake backing plate) thinner by that amount. At this point with the 712146 seal, I have too much end play. This is a frustrating and expensive way to learn by trial and error. I hope my findings will help someone else.
    Jim, you have been a great help and I appreciate it!
     
  13. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD"

    Maybe the way to go is to contact the seal manufacturer and see if there is another seal that they manufacture that will be the correct dimensions?
     
  14. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    YAh well I do this for a living.... So good luck with all that. I have given up and it has already cost me more money than you will spend I am sure. I Just do not build them anymore. Too much liability in the bolt in axle 8.5 rears.
    Until someone makes the OLD strait barrel type bearing again Like old Bower this will be a constant headache. :(
    Jim
     
  15. Rocket Racer

    Rocket Racer Well-Known Member

    CR is Chicago Rawhide. I have a seal cabinet with some nos axle seals; I'll see if i have that # and check the dimensions.
     
  16. So if correct thickness seals are not available why can't a correct thickness shim be placed between the seal and retainer plate to give proper tension on seal when axle is installed??
     
  17. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    That is my objective at this point. I have found sheet metal that is very close to the thickness needed and will fabricate a replacement for the original backing plate. This will cause the retaining plate to be ~about~ .020" closer to the seal and hopefully result in end play less than .018" ... If all goes well, I should be able to mock it up next weekend. Once done, I'll post some pictures.
     
    GranSportSedan likes this.
  18. I don't think there's any reason to abandon the original backing plate and make a new one. just a shim between that and the seal would be adequate.
     
  19. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    Just to be clear on the project-- I am swapping to disc brakes. The original backing plate for the drum is gone for good. Tobin at Kore3 has been great working with me. He even built a one-off mounting bracket for this Buick 8.2. Clearance for the calipers required more than one adjustment on this rear. I know most folks would just trash it and buy a 9" or something. I'm making changes but subtle. This car will look like the original from a distance but have several upgrades.
    OH, and a shim between the original backing plate and the seal would not work anyway. It is not made in a way that would support a shim. Even if it was, it would move the entire brake bracket/mount further out which also changes clearances. It might be possible to shim between the retainer and the seal. In this pic, part #22 replaces the original backing plate. Part #11 replaces the retainer in this setup but not on the Buick 8.2. It was machined to allow the original retainer to fit inside it on the 8.2 so the dimensions would remain correct for brakes.
     

    Attached Files:

    • disc.pdf
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    GranSportSedan likes this.
  20. BubbaJ

    BubbaJ Well-Known Member

    It worked!! See latest entry in Member's Rides.
     

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