Ive been reading about water based automotive paint. Base coat and graphics with this stuff, then clear coat. Anyone ever do this?
I believe they were used in the 80's and they sucked maybe with new tech there the way of the future?
I know a guy who worked at the chebby engine plant out here near Buffalo. I remember him telling me that now GM is using water based paint on all it's engines and chassis parts due to the VOC's from traditional paints. Can anybody confirm this? o No:
GM tried it in the EARLY 80s, and had NOTHING but Problems. Remember ALL the GM Cars that the paint Peeled off of & they were repainting Cars & Trucks Like CRAZY. (My 82 Cavilier spent More time in the paint shop than in my Garage!!) Ford went through this as well, and possibly Chrysler. I DON'T know what they are using now so as to keep the Tree Huggers Happy. JR
Was reading somewhere about these Water-Borne paints . Seems BMW has used it for years . They left off with,"Ever see a bad paint job on a BMW ?" I'm stiil hesitant . I'll research until my eyes bleed then make a decision . Eastwood sells it (doesn't mean it's quality or junk ). I dunno . Check out SPI forums here : http://www.spi.forumup.org/ Steve
Check out Glasurit 90 Line. They have had great success with it for over 15 years. R-M also has one called Onyx, but it's only currently available in CA. I think most of the big name car builders like Foose and Trepanier are now using it on their high dollar cars.
bmw,mercedes,porsche,jag-if it was painted in europe since the mid 90s, it was painted with water based COLOR COAT 2 or 3 stage paint. In california, If you are a licensed autobody collision repair center, by 2010 you will shoot only water based or you will be fined and closed. We have been using the basf products since may of this year. It is an amazing and unique product, but the clear coats ARE THE SAME as they always were-thats right, the color coat is water based, the clear is still solvent based. The water coats take longer to dry but are easier to work with and use 60-80% LESS PRODUCT to cover the same area. its is an absolute epa driven change and once you are up to speed on how it works, and how to use it it is a bit easier, and cleaner, AND SAFER FOR THOSE HANDLING IT 8 HOURS A DAY than anything that came before it. as for hobbyists who are not getting the training and support we get from the paint company, it may be a little early to try and jump on that boat.
[QUOTE as for hobbyists who are not getting the training and support we get from the paint company, it may be a little early to try and jump on that boat.[/QUOTE] Scott , this is some great info here . Hope you don't mind all the questions here , but it's kind of nice having someone who's in the field that isn't trying to sell us some new "Snake Oil" . What more would you have time to share on this subject ? Spray Pressures (does the piant gun man. specs apply or are there some fine tuning allowances that have to be made for the Water Base ?), tip sizes , drying times ,optimum spraying temps. additives .How does humidity effect the drying times . With this system is it correct to call it drying or does the paint still cure ? How does the paint flow out ? I imagine even BMW ,Porche , Mercedes , Jag etc. are using automated spraying , how user friendly is it following directions ? Sounds as if it merits a bit of research on using it .I notice alot of high-end paint guns have stainless innards to accomodate the Water Based paint . I'm considering an Iwata LPH 400 . They're a bit steep in price and I don't or won't be painting on a regular basis but I believe in having the right gear for the job. There is a Custom Body Shop near me where the owner just bought the same Iwata and he almost wet himself after I mentioned the model to him . he said it was an amazing gun how it laid out the paint . Thanks , Steve
I will answer what I can-I'm a shop manager, not a painter so I do not actually handle a gun and never have. What more would you have time to share on this subject ? Spray Pressures (does the piant gun man. specs apply or are there some fine tuning allowances that have to be made for the Water Base ?), my painter tells me the technique is slightly different, but not that much-experience is required, as with any new unfamiliar product. tip sizes , drying times ,optimum spraying temps. additives--these are going to be SPECIFIC to the brand you try and you will need this input from that paint manufacturer. .How does humidity effect the drying times .--I'm certain hmidity affects it, we are in socal near the ocean and have very little humidity to deal with so I have NO CLUE on this answer. With this system is it correct to call it drying or does the paint still cure ? with water based COLOR COAT, drying is the correct term-Don't forget, the clear is still solvent based so it is "curing". drying takes up to 3 times as long and we have special air fans (NO ELECTRICITY INVOLVOED) in the booth to aid in air movement-as it is water based, evaporation is part of the drying process, and these fans gently move air around, just enough to aid with evaportation. How does the paint flow out ? I imagine even BMW ,Porche , Mercedes , Jag etc. are using automated spraying , how user friendly is it following directions ? AGAIN, EXPERIENCE IS GOING TO BE YOUR BIGGEST FREIND HERE-AND SINCE IT TAKES 2/3 LESS PRODUCT TO COVER, THE PAINT CMPANIES ARE CHARGING 2/3 MORE FOR THIS PRODUCT!!! THEY NEVER LOSE YA KNOW Sounds as if it merits a bit of research on using it .I notice alot of high-end paint guns have stainless innards to accomodate the Water Based paint . WATER CORRODES! Thanks , Steve[/QUOTE]
Thanks very much Scott ! I think the humidity (I call it "Humility") is the biggest issue back here . We run an average of 70% up to 80% + in the summer . Fall is usually around 50%-70% . So the drying would be severly affected since the paint needs to loose moisture . I don't think I could paint in my shop since it doesn't have fans and I think I would need a real beefy dehumidifier . Lets' put it this way,,,, When it gets REAL humid the floors in my shop sweat, in the winter I actually have condensate on the the walls (8' cement walls on 3 sides ) that's where the wood stove comes in to play ,it dries it out in a hurry . Thanks for your help Scott this has been a great thread . Steve
I've been wondering about this too...up here they're talking summer 09 (or you get fined & closed) so it's a hot topic. It's funny how little info is available (even from the reps) on this stuff. I've been using a lot of water based stuff (Auto air, Createx, etc) for years with the airbrush & never had a problem, but the overall paint is a different animal. Questions: Will these products require more air movement in the booth due to an "evaporating" dry process? Will they still spray with a 1.3-1.4 tip? (HVLP) And will the current guns handle the product? Why in heck are they worried about basecoat (which flashes in a couple minutes) when the 2 part clearcoats (or primer/sealers) are where all the carcinogens are? :eek2: And why is the steel/manufacturing industry EXEMPT from these regs? (in Canada, anyway) They get to keep using solvent based product... My WD rep told me that by the time a gallon of paint makes it from manufacturer to shop, it may have frozen/thawed SEVEN times...how's a water based paint gonna handle this? uzzled: BTW,even with these new headaches on the horizon, no way am I nostalgic for the ol' acrylic enamel/laquer days...:Brow:
Will these products require more air movement in the booth due to an "evaporating" dry process? typically yes the more air movement the easier it is for the water to evaporte fromd the base coat ( put a fan on wet cement and see how quickly the water evaporates) Will they still spray with a 1.3-1.4 tip? (HVLP) And will the current guns handle the product? yes DeVilbis Binks Sharpe SATA Iwata all the current spary guns will be able to shoot the water based products Why in heck are they worried about basecoat (which flashes in a couple minutes) when the 2 part clearcoats (or primer/sealers) are where all the carcinogens are? :eek2: it is not the isocyanates they are worried about...paint companies recomend using supplied air resperator systems...even the charcoal masks do not protect from the iscocyanetes....the Govt are worried about VOC's volatile organic compounds...this is the solvent that evaporates into the atmospehere...old laquer was 80-85% solvent so a gal of paint once thinned 1 part paint to 1 part thiner would release 1.85 gals of solvent...by using water base basecoats they are cutting back the emmisions...most urethane based clears only contain about 35% solvents and only require 5-10% reduction..thus cutting back on the overall VOC's And why is the steel/manufacturing industry EXEMPT from these regs? (in Canada, anyway) They get to keep using solvent based product... because $$$ talks My WD rep told me that by the time a gallon of paint makes it from manufacturer to shop, it may have frozen/thawed SEVEN times...how's a water based paint gonna handle this? that has been an issue in the Northern climes....and so far noen of my paint companies I deal with are coming up with a sloutution yet...dont think i have ever seen a heated tractor trailer.... PPG also make a product called Envirobase which also has had great results...spie also make a WB base coat In NJ the law right now is if you are using products from within one paint company you are within VOC guidelines...it when you mix and match you can run into trouble...and Bodyshops are supposed to keep track and inspectors are supposed to check records and the tooth fairy is real...so you know how that goes
