Where To Spend the Rebuild Money?

I'm biting the bullet and rebuilding my 455 (76 block, 71 heads). We'd all like to pretend that we have tonnes of money, or that we all need 600hp.

I can admit I don't have the first, and don't need the second.

But I would be lying if I said the idea of the latest and greatest in all aspects of the motor is exciting.

So my question is where is the best place to spend the money? For instance. I'd LOVE aluminium heads. However, if I went aluminium heads, I'd have to slap the old iron exhaust manifolds on, and cheap out in other places. The cost differential is immense.

I could just get the iron heads rebuilt, and then I could afford, headers, and/or (as an example) fuel injection.

Or I could forego all of that, and put the money into the rotating assembly and valve train. Snazzy lightweight this that and the other thing.

Or a straight no frills rebuild, and then I could put a built 200r-4 in.

I know I'll get a lot of different opinions, but let's say you could afford stock rebuild+ 2k in upgrade. Where would you spend the cash?

 

I would use your heads, crank and rods. New pistons and have the heads rebuilt to meet the specs for a new cam (if you want a little more out of it). Maybe have the heads ported. New timing set and oil pump and timing cover (if needed).

 

Compression.

 

Hmm... perhaps more background.

I'm less interested in raw power than I am in street manners, efficiency and reliability. If I can build power through efficiency, then that's what I'm most interested in. Gas is in the $4-5 a gallon range for even 87 octane here in Canada.

So building a motor, the order would go: 1. Efficiency/Fuel economy, 2. Reliability, 3. Power.

I'm a firm believer in "Someday never comes." In so much I'll never get around to taking the next performance step. If for no other reason that I don't really want to. I haven't done it in the last 18 years, no reason to fool myself into thinking I'm going to in the next 18 years.

 

We do all need 600HP. It’s almost 2018,and if you build something with ancient technology,to gets specs of the past,you are building a dud.
400HP was exciting in 1970,but not now.
You can build a nice,street-friendly,pump gas engine,with worked iron heads,9:5:1 compression,a nice hydraulic roller cam,B4B or Performer intake,and a tuned Q-jet.
A stroker would be even better,if your budget allows,or just wait,and save more pennies.

 

Can't wait. Detonation ruined a piston. Wouldn't matter, my budget wouldn't change. Don't need, don't want anything beyond stock-ish. Even if the budget was unlimited, I'd build a brand new motor and tranny combo with the aim of 30mpg on 87 octane and whatever power I managed to build as a result.

 

I don't see anything wrong with some ta heads and exhaust manifolds. I got enough swapping header gaskets and having loose bolts when i was young. That is the way I'm leaning. Also plan for a roller cam setup. I thought I wanted to do a 470, but as time goes by, a .038 over 464 is more likely the longer I think about it. Jim W posted he could get me a custom ground roller cam for my setup. 600hp? Like you, I don't see me making that much but who knows. A good tune and possibly a 2004r so I can drive it, I'm sure it will suit my needs.

 

I am doing a 113A cam,B4B, M/T Super Scavengers,distributor recurve,quad carb mods,3:64 gears out back,M-20 4 speed, 70 short block and put any money I can beg borrow or steal into really nice ported and polished iron 70 heads or T/A's if somehow I ever have a decent chunk of money. If mine burns rubber,bangs gears, thumps like a baseball bat on a trash can I will be happy. Hopefully can get guidance from there to tweak it

 

30mpg won't happen. Maybe with a sbb. For mileage I would do it this way. Tight 0.035" quench, custom pistons contoured properly to the chamber to maximize it, small wide lsa cam combined with that dca calculator to determine your compression needed. That 87 octane is not so great so err on the low side. Small ports that means stock heads. Just bowl work and short side. Small valves and chamber work will help. Anything to do with efficiency and a good low rpm intake charge. Your not moving alot of air when the carb is barely out of its idle circuit. An OD trans with a lockup converter for sure. Of course a qjet or efi$$. A small tube header would help over the 1 7/8" available.
Ray

 

Honestly, I would do some new pistons, different cam that allows the use of the stock pushrods and springs, and add an aluminum intake. It would bump up power just little, help with fuel mileage moving that Riv, should be reliable with no problems. With the money left over might be able to do a 200R4 trans to help with the fuel economy even more.

 

Your engine detonated and damaged a piston because the parts combination and tuning created those conditions.
Avoiding that is fully within your realm of control.
Educate yourself further, forums can be a good starting point.
455's can't see 30 mpg??
I beg to differ. I've seen that with bigger and better for 25 years. You can do it without OD trans.
Will the OP see it? Probably not.
Will he likely find any detailed advice helping him there from the 'Net?
No, and certainly not with his budget (no offense).
Pretty sure an OD trans or an LS swap would each blow his budget individually.

That said...a stock type build with better pistons, more cam, porting work, and the basic oil mods a guy can do at home will meet the goals.
The mileage gains at highway speeds will be concentrated in aerodynamics and weight, less on the engine and gears.
Truthfully... if you are concerned with mileage and fuel budget, this isn't the hobby for you.
Daily drive a small import and use it as a weekend car.
Make efforts to double or triple wage (not being condescending, set high goals. You can do it)

 

So here's the pertinent question.. What is your budget?

That will dictate what parts you can use, because there are specific engine cleaning and machining requirements that CANNOT be skipped in the name of cost savings.That's like playing Russian Roulette. For every guy that "just bored and honed the block, I will show you 10 that tried that, and it failed. Then they get to do it... and it's always more expensive to do it twice.

The very basic, cast piston, iron head stock type 455 build here at TSP is around $6500... I get $995 to assemble it, so you can subtract that if your building it yourself, and machining costs vary.. generally higher on the coasts, and lower near the middle of the country or for guys way out in the sticks..

This is for an engine that has the best available parts for that application. An example of what I mean is this...

Rollmaster timing chain set, with 9 keyways. This is the most durable, and adjustable set on the market, and to attain anywhere near your goals here "close" is not going to cut it. So that chain at $140 is about $100 more than your stock replacment, but don't confuse the two.. Only the name is the same..

Now if your looking to spend considerably less 6-8K on the project, your options are finding a used, previously rebuilt 455 that fits your needs, or going with a salvage yard engine that you can adapt to your car.

Good luck with the project,

JW

 

The best my 71 riv was able to achieve was a solid 20 mpg with 4 people and luggage. Gearing was 2.93 I kept my speed to around 64 mph.

 

Larry I misread that sentence on budget, I was thinking $2k total.
From my standpoint, I fail to see how the trans build and subsequent cost adds any value back, let alone the LS/OD swap into a Rivi starting off with better economy than a well tuned 455.

I'm pretty sure you have read about a 28 mpg 455 (similar to Eduardo's ? in that thread) right here, so I'll take that as a compliment.
The catch 22 on reading about it is whether or not anyone is willing to give up their info to be published for free or if
you are paying for one to be done for you, IF one was being offered.
You are more than welcome to hone your tuning skills developing something, I am certain you can do it too.
There's a reason Smokey Y and partner was stonewalled on their hot vapor project.
The fact that it can and has been done (for a long time) has nothing to do with what is currently offered on the marketplace.

My comments are only here to assert that the OP or anyone else COULD strive for that and see it, not IF it is feasible, reasonable or if the consumers that buy products see it happening as a trend without putting concentrated effort into that precise result.
He's saying that [semiquote] "he would like to see... , (that result).
I did suggest he'd be better off in the big picture to double wage instead.
Tangent over, for now.

 

Hi Jim, Larry, et al.

I appreciate all of the input. I'll try to fill in the blanks. Provide some context.

First: Background. My Riviera is not a trailer queen. It's actually a workhorse. It's a go to the beach with kids, drive it to work, the heat doesn't work, the windows sorta line up, the engine has always been a little wheezy, sort of thing. A sunny day daily driver from May 1st to Oct 30th.

It's not my only toy. We have this Riviera, a 1938 Chevy Master. A 1949 Allis Chalmers tractor, and two motorcycles and our two daily drivers.

With these sorts of constraints, I have to be honest with myself. If I want to keep everything (and I do), nothing will ever be perfect. But everything can be "good enough". Get in. Turn the key, and it runs.

I have a young family with two kids, 9,7. My son already knows that when he turns 25, this car is his. As I limped it into the garage, he asked me, "Is it ever going to run again?" I told him it would.

The budget is... fluid. Or more accurately: Whatever bone stock + a little is. That said, I'm kind of in the 5-6k U.S. range to get it to turn key.

I'm looking to save where possible (ie, reuse rods, springs, rockers, valve covers, where possible) without cutting corners. Machine work will be done locally, so I'd be interested in knowing what the "specific engine cleaning and machining requirements that CANNOT be skipped" is.

LS is out. Actually any swap is. I want a 455. It's what makes a Buick, a Buick.

I'm in rural Ontario up here in Canada and you American gents may find it hard to believe, but the availability of solid used engines here north of the border kind of eliminates that as a possibility. I suppose I could drive 4 hours to find a questionable engine, running in a questionable car, and that'll set me back about 2k. Not really my style.

So, I suppose my quandary is thus: Scope Creep.

As Jim pointed out, a rollermaster timing chain set is "just" $100 more than stock. Seems like a good investment. OR do I save the 100 there, and put it porting the heads. OR do I skip both those, and put that to headers? Everything is "just a couple hundred dollars more". OR Since I'm not looking to make wild power, maybe I skip all of that and go OD tranny or efi. I gotta rebuild the carb anyway, so why not go that little further? New pistons is a guarantee. In fact, a lot of new parts are. But do I go with stock pistons, or upgrade to the next step? Is that the place to spend the exta money?

My goal is to get the car running with a 455. Full stop. I'd be happy at bone stock. But, (I think) I've got a little bit to play with. So where is the best place to push the cash? Keeping in mind I'm more interested in fuel economy than power.

As to why the fuel economy? Gas today in my town is $4.42 a gallon for 87 octane and $5 for 91. (which is why I ran 87 octane for 18 years and 60k miles and detonated my motor)

My personal record (which I could hit with regularity) was 20mpg on the highway. Just once I hit 22mpg. I don't expect to make 30mpg. But that's the direction of the goal.

I hope that fills in some of the blanks.

So, where do I spend the extra quid?

 

It’s better to wait,save your money,and do it right. Get good,quality parts,and do not cut corners. If you ever ge a block done with a cnc bore,you’ll never have another one done without it. The machinist that try and talk it down,either don’t have the equipment or resources to do it. Can you live without it? Yes,but if you have a shop capable,great. Leave as much material in the notes as possible. This helps with ring seal and cooling. Do not buy a kit. There are plenty of kits on eBay,and that is where they need to stay. Hand-pick all of your parts for your application. A good,aftermarket steel rod,and a modern,lightweight forged piston,with a modern ring pack. A Rollmaster chain is one of the best chains out there. I use those in all my builds. Check around for for a nice set of ported iron heads,that are done right and not messed-up. Do the popular and necessary oiling mods. Knowledge is priceless.

 

The questions and answers kind of shift around depending on how you look at things.
Basically, "What is an exact combo to follow with mileage/power results and costs?"

"Is there an opportunity to have mileage savings pay for major changes such as the cost of a transmission and it's CERTAIN contribution to the overall package amortize itself into the budget?"

"What would be done first and then upgraded later as the future budget allows?"