Who's Building What or Racing What in '08?

Discussion in 'The "Pure" Stockers' started by Mark Weymouth, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

    Pace car HO's didn't have anywhere near the HP of a 68 or 69 Hurst, or the gear, but do have the weight and then some. The 70 Indy cars like Noel's weren't an HO, and the 72's were really lame (low compression). Some of the 70 Indy Pace Cars were 350's even.....and not a W31 spec 350.

    Wait until someone sets a 68 non A/C car right. I think there's a coupla of them on the way. They were all automatics (except for a prototype or two, and some home grown ones like mine) and came from the factory with a 3.90 gear and the W30 top end on a 455 high compression short block. They're lighter than the 69's.
     
  2. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    GO HO's. Can I say that?

    Mark
     
  3. Chevy454

    Chevy454 Well-Known Member

    A couple of quick thoughts before I have to go bail the water out of one of our offices...

    Re rockers: cryo treating does wonders...it's cheap, and it works. You're kidding yourself if you think roller tips are *NOT* a performance gain...we may not get that fancy book learnin' down here in the sticks, but that's one sow I ain't buying.

    Secondly, I think we're to the point where everyone needs to be running a blueprint cam...no more of these personal "signature" or "home brew" cams...us Chevy guys were told that exact thing in not so many words, but then I read where folks are stretching specs (playing with the lobes, lift, LSA, IVC, etc, etc.), and it puts a whole new spin on this Pure Stock thing. Several companies offer blueprint cams across a broad range of makes/models (I believe Crane alone offers 17 or so different blueprint version)...if a company offers a blueprint camshaft for your car, then guess what, THAT is the cam you'll be running. If you have a make/model not covered, *then* you can work with Bob/Dan to get a cam done that is a representative of the original...but I put more faith in a generic "blueprint" marked cam off the shelf that some dude at Comp or Crane or where ever couldn't care less what it goes in versus one that was scienced out on a dyno, stamped with his initials, and called an original.

    Mark it down, put a stamp on it, and mail it...that's my opinion. If I'm gonna run NHRA, then I ain't gonna do it on skinny tires...
     
  4. BlackGold

    BlackGold Well-Known Member

    While part of me really wants to agree with that argument (that cams must be completely stock), another part of me wonders if tweaking the LSA or IVC is really all that different from tweaking the compression ratio or timing curve -- both of which are legal. :Do No:
     
  5. Jeff Mann

    Jeff Mann Well-Known Member

    Here's a nice, younger HO that would be a great PS candidate and something different (and non-A/C 'ta boot):

    http://detroit.craigslist.org/car/635293837.html

    Yes, a low compression 455, but aren't CRs allowed to balloon way past what was offered off the showroom floor if you "NHRA" the motor?

    Dave H, this one is a close neighbor, do you know of it?
     
  6. junior supercar

    junior supercar Well-Known Member

    what if you are outside the norm on the other end? ie, slow :laugh: ok, I'll go crawl back into my hole now. :grin:
     
  7. Donny Brass

    Donny Brass 12 Second Club Member

    you get a free book:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. scatpacktom

    scatpacktom Well-Known Member

    Problem is "You cant go home again" Rules aren't gonna change now.It doesn't say your cam has to be a factory spec cam, it says lift and duration need to be right and provide 16 inches of vacuum.

    Most guys that see me at the pure stock drags know I'm a FAST racer(cheater if you will)They know I am out of my arena. I can't believe some of the things people have told me or I have seen.There is nothing pure stock about the pure stock drags.They seem alot like FAST cars with stock stroke cranks to me.

    Some guys are closer to pure stock than others I guess.Regardless it's too late now,damage is done.Try to remember to have a good time.
     
  9. JLerum

    JLerum 1970 LS-6 Chevelle

    It reminds me of "Muscle Car Confidential". When is the next step where people confess to their cheating ways?.............:spank: :puzzled: :Brow:

    Jim
     
  10. Donny Brass

    Donny Brass 12 Second Club Member

    Sure you can, Tom, they went home in 2000..........
     
  11. scatpacktom

    scatpacktom Well-Known Member

    I don't follow:Do No:
     
  12. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

    Drop Top,

    Yes, that's Jeff Schaeffer's car. He had it shipped in from somewhere out in the Northwest (Oregon?) about 5 years ago. It is a really gorgeous car.

    He's taken it to Norwalk a few times to the Dick Miller meet and I've been after him to take it to Stanton or Martin. Just never happened. Pure numbers match, none nicer.

    He has a really nice 72 4 speed Cutlass S hardtop (saddle bronze with a desert beige vinyl roof) that was a 350, now a 455. I'm sure he'd race that except it has headers OMIGOD, STONE HIM!:shock: :shock: :shock:

    Oh, the humanity..........[​IMG]

    And he put them on it when he converted it to a 455! We don't want anyone like that around us! :rant: :rant: :rant:
     
  13. junior supercar

    junior supercar Well-Known Member

    wow. ouch. :grin: Does this mean you are done with the book Donny? :laugh:

    umm, BBQ tips???? so stacking the briquets in a pile isn't good enough? :Do No: :Do No:
     
  14. Donny Brass

    Donny Brass 12 Second Club Member


    you have a lot to learn before you leave the temple, young grasshopper.........

    I suggest pitting near Benoint or Bruno.......
     
  15. Donny Brass

    Donny Brass 12 Second Club Member


    The origin of the FAST class was a tightened up tech process at the 2000 PSMCDR .........
     
  16. scatpacktom

    scatpacktom Well-Known Member

    So are legal cars running slower now than cheating cars were back then? Over the last 7 years all the cars got a little stocker right?

    What I like about Pure stock is that you can build a nice "Pure Stocker" and when you are done slipping and sliding you are a set of headers and a pair of 9-30s away from the national record and a nice Oscar for the mantel.:3gears:
     
  17. Mark Weymouth

    Mark Weymouth Well-Known Member

    Chris you are on the tech list and we will try to find what is slowing you down...

    I kind of like the blueprint cam idea when available and certianly if you are running at the head of your combination. I have the Melling 041 cam in the Judge and Melling ground the factory cams for Pontiac. That cam is fantastic and I have it in three of my RA IV motors.

    Unfortunately AMC and Boss 302/351 have no support anymore. Anyone else not able to find a correct replacement for their combo?

    John may not be so far off on the rollor rocker item. As Dan and I were interested in the issue when the rocker arm thing for RA IV's was becoming an issue a few years ago with me breaking several aftermarket rockers and a few other guys we did double tests to see what would happen. One on the next RA IV we dyno'd (motor that is now in the Judge) we pulled it in to its best results then changed to brand new crower full roller rockers. The stamped ones actually made a touch more power but within the realm of variation that we would see between runs anyhow. Two I did a track test day starting with the stamped rockers. I made several passes in the Judge and then we swapped the rollers on. My best pass of the day was with the stamped rockers but all were on the same tenth of a second top to bottom.

    All we can figure is that Pontiac's have very very good valvetrain geometry that requires very little valve spring pressure, pretty light factory valves compared to other big block motors and with the stock cams mild lobe profiles (Melling 041) and lack of heat build up in drag racing we were not recognizing the advantages. Also should be noted is the 1.65 Pontiac rockers seems to be pretty true to their intended ratio. Pontiac's factory 1.5 rockers tend to run well below the 1.5 ratio being closer to 1.42-45 when I have measured them. In that case I bet a Pontiac with accurately ratio'd 1.5 rollers (1.52 for many companies) would show more advantage as lift and duration would be maximized.

    Now with that said having seen and worked on Hemi's, big block Chevy's and Boss/Cleveland style Ford's I would not think for a moment that they would not greatly benifit. With the rpm's my Boss 302 turned on the dyno, the very heavy valves, big spring pressures and much more aggressive lobe profiles that they run I would bet the farm that it would have hugely benefited from them.

    Even with the trouble I experienced and having to hunt down NOS RA IV rockers I never have believed that rollers belonged on my cars. They may not help Pontiac's in the same manner as canted valve motors but they still do not fit my (meaning solely my opinion for myself) idea of PS racing. But I tend towards being one of those crusty play it straight up guys.

    And so no one gets wound up about me having rollers around I sold them to another Pontiac enthusiast. Leaving no temptations.

    Mark
     
  18. realdealHurst

    realdealHurst Well-Known Member

    If you want to play with the big dogs........:cool: Otherwise just bring your best stuff and have a good time.....:3gears: :3gears: :3gears: I have a long way to go to be certified stock, So in the mean time I am just going to work on having some fun. The car will run respectable in time.....:bglasses: :dollar:
     
  19. Chris Jones

    Chris Jones Pit bicycles rule!

    I agree. I'm bringing my best stuff and I'm gonna have a good time. I hope everyone else is with me.
     
  20. Tim Clary

    Tim Clary Well-Known Member

    Tom at the time NHRA specs where started was the first certified inspection - due to BOB K. (i beleive that night in the hospitality sweet DAN UTTERED) this car has been a racer all its life and was at the extreme limits of NHRA specs. but legal. Then everyone else started specing up on there cars.
    I personally would of rather stopped at ADVERTISED compression. But NHRA was adopted - In the imortal words of Celebrity death match from then on.
    LET's Get it oooNNNNNN!!
    Chevys started running- Buicks were always cheating :)laugh: )- and a SLEW of six packs cars were Born!!!:3gears: :Do No:
     

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