Will 74-up "Muscle Cars" with carbs ever be allowed?

Yes, I guess you're right Dave. I was thinking about the up to '78 Trans Ams with the "real Pontiac" 6.6 T/A engines. I agree, watching a 307 Olds race a 301 Pontiac would be a wee bit boring. :laugh: Running them in P/S trim would not be much fun.

But with some F.A.S.T. style internal engine mods....... :Brow:

 

The more I think about it, a F.A.S.T thing would be better. I am just looking for a place to get some nice examples of these cars together, that still "look" 100% stock. Transplants would be fine as long as they look they were installed that way from the factory. For example a 350 in a 84 Z-28 with the 84 air-cleaner, exhaust manifolds, pulleys, carb ect.... same thing with a 442 with a olds 350. Just no aftermarket parts (heads, intake, carbs...)
I will conform to either the Pure Stock or the F.A.S.T depending on who is willing to allow a few cars show up and have some fun!

 

It sure would put this style of racing back within the budget of a lot more people. My brother Rick picked up his mint 86 Cutlass Supreme in Pa. and drove it home. With paint jobs running $5k on up, getting cars that still look good without painting frees up a lot of $$$ that could be put into drivetrains. Most of those cars already have disk brakes, etc.

Interesting concept!

 

If you adjust the stock wastegate for more boost, you're most of the way there! At 21 lbs (vs the stock 14 lbs), my car ran 11.6 @ 116, and the previous owner held IHRA stock national records from '90 through '95 with it. It did have 36-lb injectors, but the IHRA considered that the same as stepping up jets in a carburator.

I drove to the track and still ran 11s on street tires. Even at stock boost with stock injectors, the car would do better than mid-pack. Just as today's psmcdr times are way beyond what they ran from the showroom, a blueprinted and well-sorted GN is capable of much better than 14s.

I know this is all way off track, but the turbo Buicks were amazing cars.

Mike

 

62SS:

Wish GM hadn't pitted Buick, Pontiac, and Olds against one another back in the 80's and they could have worked together more on common things other than cost reductions and manufacturing sourcing of components. I think things may have been a lot different if Olds and Pontiac had offerred that package in the 83-84 Hurst Olds and equivalent Pontiacs during that time.

Looks like Buick and Pontiac will be joining Olds in the dumpster pretty soon (as soon as they figure out what to do with the dealer franchises- those guys are pretty powerful). Maybe down the road we could have a special class for only makes that have been axed over the years???? (Plymouth, Olds, Studebaker, DeSoto, AMC, and soon to uibe Bck and Pontiac). I'll bet good money Mercury will be next. Dodge should be OK with Plymouth gone at the low end.

 

Being a seven year convert to Pure Stock (I used to think it was the dumbest idea) I think the carbureted cars are an interesting idea.

A buddy of mine, when I worked at Hydramatic, had an '85 442. 307 engine 2004r trans. It was not a complete slug as I recall it running high 14's out of the box.

We can speculate it probably had 8.0 actual compression originally and NHRA specs allow 9.83 compression with the 'ol 307.

Properly set up within existing rules it might be surprising. o No:

I don't think the folks running P/S would go for it though.

 

Good point, Brian

Mike Delahante (Kaskarian's friend that drove the Hemi Cuda at PSMCDR a few years back), drove one of Dale Smith's back door factory race car 307's in NHRA Stock Eliminator in the 10's in an early 80's Cutlass.

I think though, it would be so expensive to set one up that way, (you'd be plowing new ground,) that it wouldn't be worth the trip. By the time you spend all that, you're out of the budget category and might as well go buy a real muscle car that's got your investment covered.

How about an 83-87 Tbird? I had an 83 5.0 liter and an 85 Turbo Coupe (with a lot of SVO upgrades). They're still pretty cheap and lord knows, there's lots of available technology and available stuff to make a 5.0 liter Ford run fast.

 

Dave, maybe not equivalent, but GM did put a few Buick 3.8 turbos in Pontiac's '87 Trans Am. Another one with 11-sec potential by turning the wick way up.

Mike

 

I agree for Stock Elimiator, but I meant set it up for P/S. The cars aren't that expensive and if it is complete doing the proper machine work on the correct castings isn't that expensive.

I'm pretty sure mandrel 2.5" exhaust are available, ring and pinions are, etc etc.

Actual 9.8 compression, 200r4 trans, 4.11 or 4.56 screw........

I'm not going to run out and buy one........but it is an interesting idea if a guy really likes those cars.

 

I know of several guys that have taken '83 and '84 H/O's, pulled the 307 and put in a built 403. Makes the car move with a little more authority! I know that this would be illegial for P/S, but it might be a neat sideline for the F.A.S.T. guys. They do have the exhaust and the necessary tranny crossmembers to help this transition. If my memory serves me correct, those cars ran on the same tires that my '84 Z/28 ran on. They were a 215/65 r15. Would make for some interseting launches since we would be talking street radials and not bias ply repops! Instead of opening the flood gates, I think that it would be fun to open the years to '78. That would cover all of the hotter (?) T/A's, Laguina, H/O, Monte Carlo, Thunderchickens, and whatever was the hot rides of the disco era! Leasure suits or bell bottoms and big gold chains would be necessary for driving these cars! p

 

I sold my 403 to "Prop Joe" in Chicago and he put it in his mint 86 442 along with all the smog equipment, computer controlled ignition and carb, and a good dual exhaust system. Runs high 12's and he drives it all over the country. Those 403's really run sweet when set up right. Gary Rubrich built this one with a 350 Nodular crank and #7Aheads.

The 307's are really limited byt the port size in the intakes and heads and also the exhaust manifolds. Keeping casting match would really hamper that and Pure Stock rules rather than FAST, I think would kill it.

That car your buddy had at Hyramatic must have been one of a kind, Brian. I've never heard of a stock 307 running anywhere near that fast. There's a girl that ran an 83 Hurst in Street/ET with Rob and Keith Seymour and, I believe was always in the 16's. Car was set up right as she was a killer on the lights and very consistent. Did real well there.

 

400 T/A's

Mike Pontiac made T/A's with 400's through '79. My dad, brother and I each have one. They made 5402 standard T/A's, 1107 SE's, and 1817 10th Anniv's. Plus almost 300 Formula's.

Mine ran 14.30's @ 101 mph back in the mid 80's with a functional hood scoop, rejetted carb, recurved distributor, and a test pipe replacing the cat. My dad's would run mid 14's with absolutely zero changes. And still has every original part from exhuast, plugs, tires... I would love to have one fully blueprinted with modern exhuast and tires. Hit 13's would be easy in a 78/79 L78 400 today.

If you get this class done maybe my 20K T/A and original motor is up for a bit of blueprinting and long overdue return to the track.

I have talked to Dan about this before. He has no interest at all. And he owns cars of this era.

I am with you I would love to see late 70/80's Z's and T/A's. Plus those aforementioned H/O's (still a favorite for me), SS Monte's and 5.0 Stangs. Carbs of course.

Donny you would be surprised how well some of these run when properly set up. I shocked many much more powerful musclecars on Friday night on Gratiot Ave. These guys payed for all my Sat. night dates in high school.

There are not many that have good potential but the ones that do run well.

Mark

 

Of course the ports aren't large.... they are feeding a 307.

In FAST the castings have to be correct for the year and horsepower claimed.

Why would you advocate upping the cubes with what you describe as limited heads and manifolds.

I thought you said building a 307 would be expensive......would porting the heads intake and exhaust manifolds to support 403 to 500 cubes be a cost savings?

It doesn't really matter, just trying to make sense of your comments o No:

Oh yea Dave you are probably right about the high 14's it was a long time ago and I was not too interested in the car....most likely 15's

 

Brian:

You know exactly what I'm talking about. FAST specs isn't my idea, I think somebody jumped from Pure Stock to FAST and that's a mighty leap. Both are very expensive if you're serious about it (as you and I know). FAST would be a total waste of money with therse cars other than the few that can run (400's, GN's, etc). Nobody said there weren't some fast cars in the 80's, just not very many of them. And NONE of them came out of Lansing. What was Mopar offering from 1980 on?

I'm talking that middle "voodoo" land that you hate that's called, do I dare say the word again? (Modified?) Now don't go off on me for headers, blowers, slicks, etc. and that crap again. :laugh: :laugh:


I'm talking dropping in a complete 403 or a good Olds 350(not 77-79 ones) and putting the accessories back on that came with the car . Certainly not putting smog heads on anything bigger. I only talk Olds as that's what I know. It's a total bolt-in, paint the engine whatever color the original wheezer was that came in the car, and have fun.

I dropped a complete 68 #5 head 350 Olds 4 barrel in my 79 Cutlass Supreme including the stock 68 exhaust manifolds, certainly not the ones from the 260 that came out of there. (Even though they were cute little devils). That was one sweet car even with the Metric 200 2 speed and the 2.56 gear.

Get back to work. Save your job.

 

Dave I apologize for suggesting that "if" a 307 cube 442 were legal and set up in Pure Stock trim it could be interesting.

You are right, a junk 307 442 ran 16's and will always run 16's and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it unless they replace the 307 with a 403.

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You missed the point and put me on the defense again. Sorry not biting. I just think it would make a lot more sense to drop in another same make interchangeable engine and make it interesting for the other people to watch, too. Not just for the driver/owner of the car.

I'm fully convinced that someone of your talents could get a 307 Gbody Cutlass under 16.0 in Pure Stcock trim. But so what? Who cares? I think people would rather see a nice stock appearing 84 Hurst that runs 13's or 14's. I know I would, The 403 just happens to be the easiest bolt in to get there.

If Olds hadn't been run by a bunch of panty waste assholes in the 70's and 80's, they could have offerred that option. They sold them to Pontiac for the Auto trans Firebirds. Taking away Dale Smith's budget was really a dumb ass thing to do back then. Warren JOhnson in drag racing, Batten, the Nascar program (even Richard Petty drove a 77 Olds for a while). they had it all. But they couldn't control it, so had to snuff it.

Why not have a class that runs these cars the way they should have been built with parfts available in their own plants rather than spending oodles of $$$ to maybe get there another way using them the same way they buiult these wheezers?

Don't you have a Mercury or a Whippet to go work on? :bglasses:

 

Well, I think I figured out what would work best. For those interested we can get together on a Friday night Test&Tune at Martin and just park in a group and run up to the staging lanes in a group. That way we do not have to rent the track and have only 3 cars show up.
So if someone wants to take a 74-87ish American made, V8, factory 4 barrel carb, and dual exhaust car and make it "pure stock" legal. Or do a "swap" as long is looks 100% on the outside, just be honest and tell if it stock or just stock "appearing. We can try and do maybe 1 or 2 gatherings a year at Martin and 1 at Stanton on a test and tune night, and see how it goes. If it really does turn out well, then something more organized can get underway. I am thinking maybe the first time to be July 8 at Martin. Just be there when the gates open, pass tech, and park in group and go from there. Those interested please email me svo_thunder@yahoo.com I have done this before with a group of Ford 2.3 Turbo cars and had a great turn out. Thanks again for the interest.

 

I can't see why their keeping GMC. They should either kill the chevy trucks or kill GMC. Not that it matters much to me anymore. After they killed Olds they ensured that GM will never get a dime of my new car money. :rant:

 

I think GMC is there to give the GM dealers a truck line to sell without calling it Chevrolet. They're running out of other marques to offer when they kill one.

Personally I'm not a big fan of Chevy's new styling (Avalanche?) and like the more traditional GMC styling cues a little more.

That's not a bad idea, Mike. Trying to be everything to everybody doesn't seem to work in much of anything these days. No need to change what's already working well like Pure Stock.

 

Yep Dave, sorry again.......... I missed the point.

A guy makes a post asking about '74 up carbureted muscle cars running in Pure Stock trim.

I comment that "it could be interesting" and use the '85 442 as an example.

Yep......missed the point. :laugh: