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  1. #1
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    Default Timing on your Race BBB's

    Dyno'd.......Track results.........
    What do you guys run for advance?
    Gary Kubisch
    '70 Skylark STG 2
    9.40's at 141+ all motor at 3370lbs
    ALL IN GOOD TASTE

  2. #2
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    Mar 2002
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    Williamston MI
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    On my SE motor: 38 degrees total, pulling out 5 degrees at 6200. This ran the best for my combination.
    Jeff Hart
    1970 GS Stage2 GSE Car--retired
    1970 Buick GS Drag Radial/Outlaw 10.5 Car
    1970 GSX 4-Speed
    1970 Stage 1 4-Speed

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    230

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    37 deg up to 40 no diff dyno/track
    Dave

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    36 pulling back to 30 over 5000.

  5. #5
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    Bloomfield, NJ
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Track testing backed up dyno testing. My combo likes 32 degrees.
    Doug Hecker
    65 GranSport
    8.61@155.20
    1.20 60-ft.
    1996 Englishtown Buick Performance Weekend - Quick 16 Winner
    1999 Englishtown Buick Performance Weekend - B.O.P. Supercar Shootout Winner
    2004 Norwalk Buick Raceday - Quick 16 Winner
    2015 GS Nationals - Super 16 Winner

  6. #6
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    Mar 2003
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    Altamont, NY
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    564

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    40 degrees with none pulled out - track tested only.
    Paul Cassidy
    1970 Sportwagon
    Best ET: 10.58 @ 125.8 w/1.45 60ft.
    1969 GS350 4-speed
    1970 Skylark (new project)

  7. #7
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    Feb 2002
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    Miami, Fla.
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    2,580

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    35* with 1 pulled out above 5000
    wait for the beep and leave a message

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    West B.F.E. South Carolina
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    1,665

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    40 degrees,et didnt change from 38 degrees but mph went up...Fish
    72 GS 10 inch tire,stock suspension.
    Former NMCA NSCA EZ/S racer ,Car #5150.

  9. #9
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    Sep 2003
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    Charlton, MA
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    679

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    32 any more than that it would spin the tires....


    WHEELIE VIDEO
    Pinks ALLOUT 2010 Maple Grove Video
    69 GS stage2 best of 9.77 134 mph with the best of 1.34 short time at 3450lbs.
    05' GMC 2500HD 8.1L 15.4 89MPH

  10. #10
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    Columbia, TN
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    I'm with Doug, never gained anything running more than 32 degrees. I actually pull it back to 30 over 6000. It will mph a little more doing that. I don't know how you guys are running next to 40 degrees.
    JIm N.

  11. #11
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    North Babylon Long Island N.Y
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    Red face Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    36 degress for me
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/350b...rformancegroup
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    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STAGE 2 Head's Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

  12. #12
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    MI
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    909

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    My gse stuff peak torque was at 41 degrees and peak hp was at 36. on track launch at 42 at 6000 rpm pulled it back to 36 that netted me my best 60's and et. The blower deal is totally different.
    Bobb Makley
    70 Stage 2 Street eliminator 9.80's @136 R.I.P
    72 stage 2 3750 LBS
    Pro charged bulldog block
    8.80's @153+w/ 1.34 60
    85 pro Street regal
    10.40's @ 128

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Northern N.J
    Posts
    262

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    32 Degrees worked best for my combo also. I have run 36 on launch and pull 4 degrees at 5000 Rpm but that makes tire spin worse sometimes!! If it hooks it helps because I run a tight 10 inch converter!!
    Rob Chilenski GSCA member #200
    70 GS Stage 1 Racecar
    8.95 @ 148.32 2015 GS nats!
    1972 GS 455 Stage1
    (973) 839-4900
    www.Stage1Automotive.com

  14. #14
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    Nov 2003
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    Mosinee Wi.
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    2,568

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gymracer01 View Post
    I'm with Doug, never gained anything running more than 32 degrees. I actually pull it back to 30 over 6000. It will mph a little more doing that. I don't know how you guys are running next to 40 degrees.
    JIm N.
    About the same here....

    And the same question
    70 GSX clone race car 10.58@126
    70 stage 2 (real) KenneBell test car that Pop raced.
    70 Skylark 12,400 miles rust free
    70 stage 1 will be restored

  15. #15
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    Feb 2002
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    Merryland
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    38-40 will give seat of the pants feel of more power but it's gotta hurt top end and durability unless you run 116 octane. I run 110 CAM2.

    I tine tune to track and air:

    1)perfect track, good air......36 back to 30 above 5000

    2) perfect track, lousy air......36 back to 33

    3) slippery track, good air......26-28...no retard

    4) slippery track, lousy air.....32 ...no retard

    Aluminum heads seem to like 2-4 degrees more timing at least at my 12.2 compression......or what's left of it. 6th season on motor.......

  16. #16
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    May 2004
    Location
    Chardon,Ohio
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    1,781

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    I know on my 525 they have it set at 33 deg and they said they went up while dynoing and it made not noticable difference. so thats where its stays.
    Shawn
    1986 Ttype 60k miles, Matts car. MANY mods 10 sec ride
    2005 Chevy Z71
    2013 GHIG Mustang BOSS 302.. 12.56@115 BONE STOCK
    1972 GS455 69k miles original except paint, 470 BBB w Stage 2 TEs in the works,

  17. #17
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    Oct 2002
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    Geneseo IL
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    OK, not to hijack this thread, but I just gotta ask about what's going on (mechanically) with timing retard at higher RPMs. I guess what I don't understand is how retarding the timing at higher RPM allows for higher mph (and what effect does it have on ET?). It would seem that there'd be less time to get the fire lit at higher RPM, so even more advance would be needed, but I've got a feeling there's a lot more involved, like volumetric efficiency and a lot of other things I'm overlooking. Can somebody explain the concept?
    Jim Humphrey

    Anybody can drive a new car. Driving junk takes skill.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 68 Rivs View Post
    OK, not to hijack this thread, but I just gotta ask about what's going on (mechanically) with timing retard at higher RPMs. I guess what I don't understand is how retarding the timing at higher RPM allows for higher mph (and what effect does it have on ET?). It would seem that there'd be less time to get the fire lit at higher RPM, so even more advance would be needed, but I've got a feeling there's a lot more involved, like volumetric efficiency and a lot of other things I'm overlooking. Can somebody explain the concept?
    I use 32 on all my engines,even though the dyno may have shown slightly more hp at 35-36 I never found any gain on the drag strip,and to me thats the true dyno.
    Jim,regarding retarding,I don't know the reason why it works it just does.Thats why the old hayes set ups worked so well with our BBB's,run 36 then as the r's increase it retards to 28-30 on top end,only ignition I ever found to consistently pick up nearly a tenth in the 1/4.Aslo,Grumpy Jenkens used this trick many years ago to gain mph,he ran dual points then had a switch to short out one set on the top end,thereby effectively retarding the timing.Old technology still works.
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    412

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    What methods/techniques are you guys using to pull out timing?

    I've started playing with my MSD Digital 7 nitrous/high-speed retard.
    http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_20_7520.htm

    Right now I manually activated for third gear only. Did not see a major change, however have only a couple passes under my belt playing around with it. Have not considered activating for all shifts and any RPM over 6000 grand (or whatever is considered high RPMs)...

    I do really like this box over the MSD 6AL and all the associated add-ons I used to run.

  20. #20
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    Feb 2002
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    Pine City, MN
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    9,656

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 68 Rivs View Post
    OK, not to hijack this thread, but I just gotta ask about what's going on (mechanically) with timing retard at higher RPMs. I guess what I don't understand is how retarding the timing at higher RPM allows for higher mph (and what effect does it have on ET?). It would seem that there'd be less time to get the fire lit at higher RPM, so even more advance would be needed, but I've got a feeling there's a lot more involved, like volumetric efficiency and a lot of other things I'm overlooking. Can somebody explain the concept?

    Actually it's pretty simple..

    The purpose of ignition timing or "spark advance" is to fire the spark plug at the optimum time, so that the cylinder will complete the burn of the air fuel mixture, right when the piston reaches TDC, or just after it.

    The problem is that "complete burn" as it's called, is theoretical, as it never really happens in a combustion engine.

    At lower engine speeds, more timing can be used to attempt to increase that burn time, and to increase torque, but as the engine speed increases, and the physical time that the piston travels up the bore decreases, creating cylinder pressure too soon (by firing the spark plug early) can inhibit piston speed, and overall power production at higher rpm. This is because there is less time for that early cylinder pressure, to leak out of the cylinder, past the ring gaps and due to reduction in the actual time that the camshaft is in overlap (both valves open).

    From dynoing dozens of BBB's from highly modified race motors to stock restoration engines, there typically is a "sweet spot" for the timing, which is the best comprimise between lower rpm and higher rpm torque production. In a cast iron headed typical 455 engine, that is right around 32* of total timing. Aluminum headed engines, and highly modified engines often want more timing, but that need is greatly based on the position of the camshaft in relation to the crankshaft, as well as a host of other factors.

    While more timing increases low speed torque, it hurts power at the higher engine speeds, often resulting in a net overall reduction of engine power, in a given rpm range. To counteract this, ignition manufacturers have devised a way to reduce the total timing, based on either a switched input (3rd gear switch, N2O input) or by doing it based on engine rpm.

    The attempt here is to get "the best of both" timing settings, thruout the engines rpm cycle.

    I have seen very few engines actually make a ton more power with advanced timing, but there certainly are gains to be had, and the more dialed in your race car is, the more you will notice playing with timing and retards.

    In all my work, I have seen the "sweet spot" for timing typically right around 32-34*, I can't recall an engine of any description, that wanted more than 35*, to achieve the best overall power output in a given range.

    Engines can be very timing sensative.. I know that we picked up about 11 HP and 10 ft lbs, with a 1 degree timing change when we last had Sweesy's 525 on the dyno.. but then again, when your making 850+ to begin with, that's actually not that big of an increase, but I have seen similar results on engines making more like 500 HP.

    I have also seen engines that don't care about another few degrees, either way.. My old 437 was a good example.. it made 540 HP, and 560 torque, with the timing set anywhere between 30 and 34*.

    As this relates to the car, there are very few race cars out there that can decrease their ET greatly with advanced low speed timing, simply because either the chassis setup, or the racetrack won't allow the extra power to be translated to the ground. What you typically will see is a change in MPH, once you get your timing set to maximize your launch capablities, and then pull it back a few degrees to allow for more high engine speed power production.
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
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    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  21. #21
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    Oct 2002
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    Geneseo IL
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Jim, Gary, thanks for the info on retarding the timing, I think I get the concept. Man, there are a lot of variables working together here. I'd bet the electronic engine controls for new vehicles probably have retard built into their timing curves. Be interesting to see how they compute the ideal timing. Thanks again!
    Jim Humphrey

    Anybody can drive a new car. Driving junk takes skill.

  22. #22
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    Oct 2002
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    Columbia, TN
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    1,698

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    This is a good discussion. I've figured this out mostly on my own with my car. I did try the Jenkins trick several years ago on a 250hp 283 fuel injection engine in a NHRA stocker. I run an ignition system that most have thrown away and determined as "no good". That's the Holley system that came out 8-10 years ago. I can program any timing curve at each 500 rpms.
    It also has a cranking retard and rpm switches and limiters. I guess some people had trouble with them and they stopped making them. I had them in two cars with no problems. I switched to aluminum heads over the winter but have not really worked the timing deal much since going with them. The car was fast as I needed (index) with the old iron head timing. I'm sure I could pickup it up a little if I tried.
    Jim N.

  23. #23
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    Feb 2002
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    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    All I know is that when I used the high speed retard at E-town, it hurt my performance. I had it adjusted for 4* to come out at 4400 RPM. I had 34* retarding back to 30*. My engine would fall back to around 4200 RPM after the 3rd gear shift. As it climbed through 4400, and the retard kicked in, I could hear the engine sort of go flat for half a second then the RPM's climbed all the way through the traps. Listen to the motor in this clip. My best was a 12.56@ 107.30

    http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w...LarryRun1A.flv

    At Cecil County, I eliminated the timing retard and ran 109 + first time down the track. Increased the timing to 36*, ran over 110 MPH. Went to 38-39*, it went just a shade under 112 MPH. This was my 12.20 @110.65 MPH pass

    http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w...nt=Cecil07.flv

    I'd like to try the retard again. Maybe at a higher RPM? The module selector I use allows adjustment from 3000-5200 RPM in 200 RPM increments. I am going through the traps at 5500 RPM. Should I take the timing out at 5200? Would do you guys think?
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Larry, just looked at your video for the first time..

    My advice..

    1. set your governor kit up to shift at 6000 1-2.. and 2-3.. The SP-1 wants that. You need to keep the motor up to around 4800 on the shift. If the rods let go from an extra 500 rpm, it was time for a fresh shortblock anyway.

    2. Take the air cleaner off, and install a 1" spacer under the carb.. The SP-1 wants that too. Install the air cleaner in the trunk.. Best spacer is the HVM Super Sucker..

    3. pull out timing back to 32-34* after 5000 rpm. It should pick up mph. I know it doesn't want 39* past 5000.. no question, I would never even go there on the dyno, cause it would have fallen on it's face back around 36* I think the timing is helping your MPH because your getting the mass moving faster, before wind resistance takes over, and slows your rate of acceleration-- remember how the speed trap works on the strip.. if you enter at a higher mph, you can actually be not accelerating as fast, yet see a higher mph on the slip.

    How's your 1/8 MPH with the different ignition timings.. and on the same track, the same day.. should be the same diff as it is at the end, I would bet..

    With good air and track, you just might get your 11 second run.

    Your type of car, and the times it's running, is the most likely on to see improvements from timing changes during the run.. as long as you can hook..
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Thanks Jim,
    Yes, 1/8 Mile improvents were the same as at the 1/4. So 38* pulling 4* out at 5000 RPM. I'll have to try that.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

 

 
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