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  1. #26
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    Oct 2002
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    Columbia, TN
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Larry, I think Jim is giving you some good advice there. I know back in by SBC days I thought it took a bunch of timing and sometimes it did go a little faster, but I think I had other problems that the added timing was just covering up. I have always been conservative with the timing on my Buicks. Think that has helped me not have bearing problems and kept the pistons out of the pan.
    JIm N.

  2. #27
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    Feb 2002
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    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
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    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gymracer01 View Post
    Larry, I think Jim is giving you some good advice there. I know back in by SBC days I thought it took a bunch of timing and sometimes it did go a little faster, but I think I had other problems that the added timing was just covering up. I have always been conservative with the timing on my Buicks. Think that has helped me not have bearing problems and kept the pistons out of the pan.
    JIm N.
    Well, the hardest part will be calibrating another governor to shift at 6000 RPM. I don't want to shift it myself, it's so much nicer to leave it in Drive and let the trans do it's thing. It's easy enough to set the retard on my MSD Digital 6.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    2,325

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    Larry, just looked at your video for the first time..

    My advice..


    2. Take the air cleaner off, and install a 1" spacer under the carb.. The SP-1 wants that too. Install the air cleaner in the trunk.. Best spacer is the HVM Super Sucker..

    Jim, would using no air cleaner with a sealed Stage 2 scoop cause too much turbulance for the carb to work properly?
    Bob

    '72 GS350 convertible, 455, "TORQUED" 10.91@121, 1.50, 3750 lbs race weight, street car, Qjet, full exhaust, etc.
    '70 GSX Tribute 9.51@140+, 1.33, 3650 lbs race weight, factory iron block, 1 carb, full exhaust, no power adders
    '87 GN 59K original owner

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyXRjiO-oFE

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    2,325

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by LARRY70GS View Post
    I don't want to shift it myself, it's so much nicer to leave it in Drive and let the trans do it's thing.
    What else do you have going on going down the track??
    Bob

    '72 GS350 convertible, 455, "TORQUED" 10.91@121, 1.50, 3750 lbs race weight, street car, Qjet, full exhaust, etc.
    '70 GSX Tribute 9.51@140+, 1.33, 3650 lbs race weight, factory iron block, 1 carb, full exhaust, no power adders
    '87 GN 59K original owner

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyXRjiO-oFE

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
    Posts
    27,196

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by TORQUED455 View Post
    What else do you have going on going down the track??
    I try to watch the gauges and the track. It's over before you know it
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ont. Canada
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Come on Wiz, tell the truth....you watching the air freshner
    Jim
    1971 GS/350 now 464
    New best 11.30 @ 119 1.69 60ft
    1987 Turbo T Limited
    New best 11.55 @ 116 1.66 60ft

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
    Posts
    27,196

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gusszgs View Post
    Come on Wiz, tell the truth....you watching the air freshner
    Not that Tree.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    1,221

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Larry,

    I have never seen any gain in ET when going over 32 degrees of timing. Right now I keep my timing at 31. I am a believer in tuning for MPH. The higher timing might help off the line but it will hurt on the big end. Higher timing also puts the engine closer to detonation which could cause some problems.

    Take Care
    John R. Zerucha
    70 Skylark @2800 lbs
    8.78 @ 153 mph 535 Stage 4 2850 lbs
    8.97 @ 149 mph 523 Stage 4
    9.36 @ 143 mph 464 Stage 2
    9.77 @ 135 mph 464 Stage 1
    88 Hawk @2350 lbs
    8.06 @ 167 mph 535 Stage 4
    7.90 @ 170.5 mph 572 Stage 4
    1973 Buick Apollo (In Process)

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ont. Canada
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    1,290

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Just to add here, when I was at the track this past weekend I made one timing change. I had the timing set at 32* and went 11.34@119 then bumped it to 36* and went 11.33@121. So, no et reduction but almost 2mph faster.
    I may have bumped too much and missed the sweet spot. I'll try 34*next time out.
    Jim
    1971 GS/350 now 464
    New best 11.30 @ 119 1.69 60ft
    1987 Turbo T Limited
    New best 11.55 @ 116 1.66 60ft

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    594

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    seems to be an awful big variation in timing numbers. is it possible the guys that need to run really high timing are too rich or have to much octane in the fuel?(or maybe its the other way around). projected plug nose or not = different timing numbers . just thinking out loud, what do you think?

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
    Posts
    365

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Larry I used all your mods on my distributor from your post invaluable information
    next step for me is programable box. My engine always liked a lot of initial timing and always pinged after 4000 until I modified my distributor's mechical advance to half it's travel all in quick one light spring one medium. I set the timing until it pings then dial it back until pinging goes away. I will put the light on it this week I'm curious to what it is actually! What are the specs on that 118 cam?
    1969 GS convertible 12.1990 @112 mph
    1969 GS hard top project WIP
    1978 19.5 ' Centurian Jet Boat 462 BBB

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Yorkville, IL
    Posts
    1,383

    Question Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    now i know why so many of you guys have bearing problems,,,,, unless you run alcohol anything over 34 degrees is stupid, a buick spark plug is not in a location that can tollerate that much timing,they also have large bore, detonation is the #1 killer of bearings , I have made 1400 plus horsepower for over 5 years and have NEVER hurt a bearing
    Rod & Danie'
    91 Regal 6.63 @ 209 mph, 1.01 60FT
    78 Skyhawk 8.54 154 mph =1](hand me down parts from Regal)[/SIZE]
    69 Riv 12.86 @106 on normal street tires.
    AESracing.net

  13. #38
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,991

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by LARRY70GS View Post
    I don't want to shift it myself, it's so much nicer to leave it in Drive and let the trans do it's thing.
    That's what I think of when I say "Fast with Class" to a non believer.That's how I want mine set up also .
    Lots of good info here .
    Hector
    '79 Electra Limited 350-4
    '95 Roadmaster Sedan 350-LT 1
    BCA 42718
    W.O.T. without a Cat

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Mosinee Wi.
    Posts
    2,506

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by 7 skylark 1 View Post
    projected plug nose or not = different timing numbers . just thinking out loud, what do you think?
    I'm a true believer in this, but more so in a hemi style head.
    A while back we dyno'd nothing but different spark plugs for two full days (about 20 hours of dyno time) on our race snowmobile engines...these were our stockers where one to two hp could make a difference in a win or loss.

    When we saw a difference in a plug change either way, we would retune the engine for that plug, which included carburetion and timing changes.

    Basically what we found;
    There were hp and tq differences in the long and short reach plugs, and we tried every thing out there including our own made clipped plugs, indexing, different metals, split fire (no difference) ect.

    Now, what we found like mentioned were differences between long and short reach plugs. But when we retuned the engine for that plug the hp/tq ended up being the same with a slight advantage over the long reach plug, about a half horse. Probably do to a slight comp increase from filling the chamber more.
    Anyways what we found with timing was the short reach plug likes more timing over the long reach.
    The engineers at SkiDoo which we worked closely with had a reason (they always did!) The long reach plugs advanced the timing bc it put the spark further down the cylinder there by lighting the mixture sooner.

    All that testing did help bc we now could make a timing change with plugs between rounds if the weather (air density) changed. just another tuning tool.
    Sorry for the long post but I thought it was all very interesting...
    70 GSX clone race car 10.58@126
    70 stage 2 (real) KenneBell test car that Pop raced.
    70 Skylark 12,400 miles rust free
    70 stage 1 will be restored

  15. #40
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    412

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Will a moderator please post this string as a "sticky".

    I'm one of those "stupid" people that wasted three Buick motors in my track efforts with all combos pushing 625HP or less.

    Pretty sure I ran 36 degrees + of timing. I'll have to go back to my old logs and dyno sheets to verify.

    This information would have been real helpful to me about 4 years ago.

    Thx.

    John

  16. #41
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    Feb 2002
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    26,422

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by john hixon View Post
    Will a moderator please post this string as a "sticky".

    I'm one of those "stupid" people that wasted three Buick motors in my track

    John
    OK
    Jim Lore
    BPG 1037
    "If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear."

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Pine City, MN
    Posts
    9,610

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by TORQUED455 View Post
    Jim, would using no air cleaner with a sealed Stage 2 scoop cause too much turbulance for the carb to work properly?
    No, a sealed hood scoop is developing air pressure, the amount of which is relative to vehicle speed..

    I have run open hood scoops, with tunnel rams with the carbs sticking up in the scoop, and the scoop sealed, as well as sealed scoops with single plane manifolds and single carbs.. never had any problems, and run everything from Dominators to Thermoquads to all types of Holleys and Q-jets..

    As far as I am concerned air cleaners are for street cars.. unless your racing in a sandstorm..

    Most cars pick up a little on the strip without an air cleaner, some may not, but it's always worth a try.

    JW
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    297

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Ran 36*for a while but in good air it would detonate a little on the big end.After some experimenting I left it set at 34* w/o any retard and the car picked up solid w/o any detonation (to my knoledge) on 93 octane.I dont know how larry's getting away w 39* ,did you try another timing lite?Maybe it's that 118 cam(late intake valve closing,short overlap,wide Lsa.Every car-combo is and always will like somethig a little different.AS far as air cleaners go for my street car with stock hight hood iv'e tried alot of different combos of air cleaners over the years (it's the eisiest thing to change).Stock ram air,stock ram air w flipped lid,stock ram air w flpped lid and 4" k-n,morosso drop base w 3" k-n (4" wouldn't fit),morosso drop base w 3" k-n and k-n filter lid and open carb.car seems to run the worst w stock ram air and best w morosso drop base w k-n 3" filter not w the open carb. I was thinking of trying a k-n stub stack on the open carb to see if that helps w the turbulence,or rob c told me to try just the base of the air cleaner w the open carb.I guess i'll try those 2 next season but so far no luck w open carb just the thought of sucking a rock into the carb.O and dont waste your money on the k-n filter lid it didn't do a damn thing for me unless your looking for a used one in that case iv'e got one for sale
    1970 GS Stage1 triple brown iron headed 464 pump gas street car 10.600@127.02 through the muffs

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
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    27,196

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by street rep View Post
    Ran 36*for a while but in good air it would detonate a little on the big end.After some experimenting I left it set at 34* w/o any retard and the car picked up solid w/o any detonation (to my knoledge) on 93 octane.I dont know how larry's getting away w 39* ,did you try another timing lite?Maybe it's that 118 cam(late intake valve closing,short overlap,wide Lsa.Every car-combo is and always will like somethig a little different.AS far as air cleaners go for my street car with stock hight hood iv'e tried alot of different combos of air cleaners over the years (it's the eisiest thing to change).Stock ram air,stock ram air w flipped lid,stock ram air w flpped lid and 4" k-n,morosso drop base w 3" k-n (4" wouldn't fit),morosso drop base w 3" k-n and k-n filter lid and open carb.car seems to run the worst w stock ram air and best w morosso drop base w k-n 3" filter not w the open carb. I was thinking of trying a k-n stub stack on the open carb to see if that helps w the turbulence,or rob c told me to try just the base of the air cleaner w the open carb.I guess i'll try those 2 next season but so far no luck w open carb just the thought of sucking a rock into the carb.O and dont waste your money on the k-n filter lid it didn't do a damn thing for me unless your looking for a used one in that case iv'e got one for sale
    Chris,
    I could always hear my engine detonate, even at full throttle. My exhaust is not that loud. I haven't heard it detonate since going to the aluminum heads. It runs happily on 93. At Cecil, I added 2 gallons of 110 to about 6 gallons of pump 93. I eventually bumped the timing up to 38 or 39* It didn't detonate as far as I could tell. I realize that just because I didn't hear it doesn't mean there was no abnormal combustion at that timing. I don't intend to run that timing on my engine routinely. I just wanted to see what would happen at the track. The car definitely picked up. Knowing what I know now, I would have dialed in some retard at 5000 RPM plus. Maybe it is the engine combination that allows me to get away with that kind of timing. You guys with alot more compression 12-14:1, I'm not surprised that more than 32* makes no difference. I have 10.4:1 and a late closing intake valve.

    Landshark1969, the KB118 cam is 228*/246* at .050, 118* LSA, .490/.490 lift. It was a cam made to crutch stock iron heads(18* more exhaust duration). It no longer fits the rest of my combination. I would like to try the 288-92H cam. That is the one JW recommended to me. That is 231*/234*, 110* LSA, .525/.525 lift. It would increase my DCR from 7.51 to 7.95
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  20. #45
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    412

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Found my last BBB blueprint and dyno sheet. AM&P did the work.

    CI = 464 / Heads = worked over iron 1967 430s
    Power band 4500-6500 RPM
    Max Recommended RPM 6500
    Compression Ratio 13.01 - 1.
    Max HP 605 @ 6400
    Mx Tq 567 @ 5000
    Timing 36 degrees. Locked down.

    Cam -
    int lift .600 adv dur / deg dur at.050 265 deg
    exh lift .607 adv dur / deg dur at .050 274 deg
    in lobe center 106 deg / ex lobe center 110 deg
    installed - degreed in at 107 degrees.

    Carb / Intake
    1050 Dom - jetted 92sq. / SPX

    This combo took my 3750lb (with me) ladder bar GS to a best of 10.52

    I think I got 30 passes out of it before I blew up the motor.

    From what I learned -- If I wanted to be "safe" I would have been better with an under 12:1 compression motor. With less than 34 degrees of timing. Shifting and through the traps at under 6000 RPM.

    Not looking to re-hash any ill will. -- Just saying if I were to do it all over again in a very similiar manner I'd feel real confident taking the "safe" route. IMHO Would have still easily been in the high 10's on a "budget" no girdle, non aluminum headed motor. -- And probably still BBB powered today.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Pine City, MN
    Posts
    9,610

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    John,

    Motors get hurt for a lot of reasons.. now that we have the build, what exactly failed on it?..

    While detonation can certainly be a factor, there are plenty of BBB with a similar description to yours in race cars, that live a long and healthy life, and while 36* is maybe higher than I would anticipate it would require, obviously Mike down at AMP dynoed it, and it apparently wanted that much timing, which is certainly possible.

    What type of fuel were you running? What kind of fuel system?.. Detonation most often is caused by either inadaquate fuel for the combo, or a lean condition with the engine or some combination of both. I would be hesitant to say that if you had the timing set at 32* that it would still be around, certainly without seeing the engine and the failure points.

    Was any post failure autopsy performed by the builder, to identify the exact cause of the problem? I know if I built it, and it failed in that time period, I would certainly want to see it again, to see if I could recitify the problem, and work with you to make you happy.. I am sure Mike is the same way.

    That motor's power output is nearly identical to the alum head Level 2A motor I build here, and have had very good luck with several examples. No doubt due to the aluminum heads, that motor makes more torque, the same HP, and does it at 10.6 to 1 on pump gas with a much smaller cam. While it's a solid buildup, it's hardley exotic when it comes to Buick race engines.. no girdle, hydraulic cam, just good rods and pistons, our standard upgraded TA SE STG 1 heads ect ect..

    When you get into the 800 HP range, with the big roller cams and such, then the Buick block issues rear their ugly head, and while I would recommend to anyone that is going to build a race motor with 600+ HP and is going to pound it consistantly at the track, that a girdle is a good insurance policy, I don't at all believe that power level is beyond the capability of our stock blocks, so I am curious as to the exact point and cause of the failure.
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Yorkville, IL
    Posts
    1,383

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    In most cases more timing will show more power on a dyno but it does not mean it will go faster on the track and it also does not mean the motor will live, I wasn't trying to make anyone mad by saying stupid, if you know me that is just how i talk. and i hate it when people blame the engine for blowing up.. it didnt blow itself up, 9 times out of 10 the reason the engine blows up is how its tuned


    Rod
    Rod & Danie'
    91 Regal 6.63 @ 209 mph, 1.01 60FT
    78 Skyhawk 8.54 154 mph =1](hand me down parts from Regal)[/SIZE]
    69 Riv 12.86 @106 on normal street tires.
    AESracing.net

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Merryland
    Posts
    5,194

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Rod, totally agree with you.

    36 degrees on a dyno in a controlled environment is one thing. But at the track on a hot day with heat soak, high barometer, etc is another.

    When Larry ran that much timing (39) it was after a rain, cool and breezy and the barometer had not started coming up much.

    All this has to be taken into account.

    I'd always want to have LESS timing than more....just not worth the risk.

    Another point is that two motors can run the same ETs. One set up on the lean side and less timing or another rich with lots of timing.

    EGT's is where you can see it and tune it.........my car runs best at 1410-1430 but is safer around 1350.

    A motor will run the fastest at leanout....like when a motor runs out of gas.....speeds up right before it shuts off. But it's risky to run at lean max power.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Houston, TX
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    3,235

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by TORQUED455 View Post
    Jim, would using no air cleaner with a sealed Stage 2 scoop cause too much turbulance for the carb to work properly?

    Good reading

    http://www.buickperformance.com/ronstory.htm

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    We have 3 different timing lights, Actron, snap on , and craftsman, all new, and they vary 2 degrees when checking the same engine.So we just use the craftsman on everything.

 

 
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