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  1. #51
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    412

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Was any post failure autopsy performed by the builder, to identify the exact cause of the problem? I know if I built it, and it failed in that time period, I would certainly want to see it again, to see if I could recitify the problem, and work with you to make you happy.. I am sure Mike is the same way.
    Jim,

    We took what was left and inspected with Mike. He was the first to open it up. There was much discussion in the past on this, and the bottom line determined nothing conclusive other than bearing seize/failure. Nothing bad on Mike or quality of workmanship implied here. He did offer to take care of me as you would as well. I decided to throw in the towel until something better comes along. Distance being the factor on AM&P, I've stayed with Opel Engineering in Streamwood Illinois. Otherwise, I'd would with no hesitation use Mike and AM&P again.

    I understand your questions regarding fuel system etc. My entire combo and chassis was well overbuilt for the motor. That being said, when I went with the BBC I changed absolutely nothing with exception to a BOP tranny adapter plate and other basic swap mods. I've been very pleased having more time to race then wrench with two (reasonably) troublefree seasons.

    Since then I've also improved my chassis to 8:50 certification and someday hope to put an aftermarket BBB combo back in.

    What I'd like to see is something a little bit more conclusive on this thread. Like many others, it still seems circular with a ton of expert opinion. On the other hand -- maybe that's the best there is considering the circumstances and numerous flaws associated with pushing the limits on 32-38 year old blocks.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Columbia, TN
    Posts
    1,697

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    More good stuff here. I have experiment with the extended nose plugs even though a good engine builder told me to not run them, my car seems to like them and runs a little cleaner and faster with them. I agree with Rod and others, I just like to stay conservative on the timing. If I was running a class where I had to make every last hp like Tom Rix, then I might lean on it more. But an index class where the car can most of the time run .2 under, it makes no sense to get wild with timing and jetting. I like going rounds, not repairing engines all the time.
    Jim N.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    BRIGHTON,CO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gymracer01 View Post
    More good stuff here. I have experiment with the extended nose plugs even though a good engine builder told me to not run them, my car seems to like them and runs a little cleaner and faster with them. I agree with Rod and others, I just like to stay conservative on the timing. If I was running a class where I had to make every last hp like Tom Rix, then I might lean on it more. But an index class where the car can most of the time run .2 under, it makes no sense to get wild with timing and jetting. I like going rounds, not repairing engines all the time.
    Jim N.
    Jim witch Plugs are you Runing in your Stage2 heads.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Columbia, TN
    Posts
    1,697

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Jeff, I have been using the Autolite AR3911, I don't know what others use , but they seem to work for me. I have run AR3934, but I didn't like the way it ran as well. I have a set AR3910 but have not tried them. What is everyone else runnning?
    JIM

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    BRIGHTON,CO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gymracer01 View Post
    Jeff, I have been using the Autolite AR3911, I don't know what others use , but they seem to work for me. I have run AR3934, but I didn't like the way it ran as well. I have a set AR3910 but have not tried them. What is everyone else runnning?
    JIM
    My Dad and myself run Stage 3 High Ports
    We have run the Autolite 4055 and 4054's and the NGK BR8ES,BR9ES

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    BRIGHTON,CO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Does anyone have cross reference for heat Ranges on NGKs to Autolites.
    I would like to run the 5/8 Plug Socket size instead of the 13/16

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Columbia, TN
    Posts
    1,697

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    The Autolites I run are the 5/8" socket. Are the 40 series hotter or extended tip , what's the difference with the 39 series?
    JIM

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Miami, Fla.
    Posts
    2,580

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    in my 14.5 comp 535" I used 111 Accel

    in my 10.6 comp 470" I use 114 Accel

    starts right up EVERYTIME, idles like a purring kitten, good power, I tried every thing under the sun and these have ALWAYS been the fastest and most reliable

    your choice may vary...
    wait for the beep and leave a message

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    BRIGHTON,CO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by gymracer01 View Post
    The Autolites I run are the 5/8" socket. Are the 40 series hotter or extended tip , what's the difference with the 39 series?
    JIM
    Jim I now on the A/C Plugs and Autolites the Lower the number the colder
    the heat Range like the 39's would be colder and the 40s would be a
    hotter heat range. On the NGK plugs they do things different they
    go up in Numbers My friend that Runs Nitrous uses a NGK 10s when
    running the Nitrous when he runs it on the motor he runs a NGK 8s.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Rt 1 Box 180 Puxico, MO 63960
    Posts
    1,429

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    If RACE engines should stay at 35 total timming or less after jetting and other factors are adjusted.....
    How about the STREET/STRIP engine with these common specs?
    9.0 to 10.5 compression
    .075-.095 deck height
    180-200 degrees engine temp
    224-235 duration on intake
    2800-3200 torque converter
    3200-5700 RPM range
    3.73-3.08 Gear ratio
    93 Octane fuel
    3800 LB. chassis
    100 plus temp. of under hood intake air

    I think most all RACE engines will have .040 deck height, polished chambers, cold air intake, etc, etc, and may have different timming needs..TRUE or FALSE??

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbus<GA
    Posts
    1,004

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    2. Take the air cleaner off, and install a 1" spacer under the carb.. The SP-1 wants that too. Install the air cleaner in the trunk.. Best spacer is the HVM Super Sucker..
    Jim, can you explain the install the air cleaner in the trunk? Are you just saying to leave it off during the pass? I also have a SP1. Mike Phillips recommended the spacer as well but there are hood clearance issues (as we all know).
    Scotty Mack
    68/69 Buick Stepchild Nation

    1969 GS400 Convertible
    3.42 posi < TH400 < Coan < AM&P 464
    551HP@5400 - 567 FT/LBS@4200
    Best time so far in the 1/8th: 7.68 @ 90.0

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    15,266

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Bohannon View Post
    If RACE engines should stay at 35 total timming or less after jetting and other factors are adjusted.....
    How about the STREET/STRIP engine with these common specs?
    9.0 to 10.5 compression
    .075-.095 deck height
    180-200 degrees engine temp
    224-235 duration on intake
    2800-3200 torque converter
    3200-5700 RPM range
    3.73-3.08 Gear ratio
    93 Octane fuel
    3800 LB. chassis
    100 plus temp. of under hood intake air

    I think most all RACE engines will have .040 deck height, polished chambers, cold air intake, etc, etc, and may have different timming needs..TRUE or FALSE??
    See Larry's thread here:

    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=63475

    Devon
    Fuel & Brake Systems Engineer
    "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Feynman
    "Good data is precious. The problem I have is when some damned fool fails to use it properly." - Slingerland

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    FLORIDA
    Posts
    197

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    When I set up my MSD dist. the manual said the blue bushing would produce 21* of crankshaft timing. So I set base at 14*, should be 35* total, but it only totals at 30*. The book says "approximate", are they that far off. Is 5* normal? I am going to put the silver bushing in that claims 25* so if all things remain I should be at about 35*. Make sence?
    Don Palumbo
    1965 GTO tri power, 4 speed, post car.
    1987 Grand National, Winner TSM GS Nationals Bowling Green 2006, 9.92 @ 136.88
    1964 Buick Skylark-Daily Driver.-SOLD-
    Last pass on V6 before it blew= 1.41 60' and 6.10 at 113.26 in the 1/8th... it was flying!!! Had to be heading for a 9.50ish pass...
    Same Grand National but now with 455, 10.66@123.69

    The devils greatest trick was to convince the world he didn't exist...(Roger Kint aka Verbal from the movie The Usual Suspects)
    a must see...

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
    Posts
    27,643

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Palumbo View Post
    When I set up my MSD dist. the manual said the blue bushing would produce 21* of crankshaft timing. So I set base at 14*, should be 35* total, but it only totals at 30*. The book says "approximate", are they that far off. Is 5* normal? I am going to put the silver bushing in that claims 25* so if all things remain I should be at about 35*. Make sence?
    Make sure that you are revving it high enough to see the total. Lot's of guys rev it to 2500 and think it's all in, and it's not. It is also possible that your idle speed is such that some of the mechanical advance is in and what you think is 14* is really 9*. Make the idle speed as low as possible without stalling the motor. Does it still look like 14* initial?
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BCA # 37548
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    FLORIDA
    Posts
    197

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    I am sure I am reving it high enough it come to a dead stop at 30* and will not go any higher.. Your point about the idle speed it a good one ( it does idle at 1100) I will check that tomorrow.
    Thanks, Don
    Don Palumbo
    1965 GTO tri power, 4 speed, post car.
    1987 Grand National, Winner TSM GS Nationals Bowling Green 2006, 9.92 @ 136.88
    1964 Buick Skylark-Daily Driver.-SOLD-
    Last pass on V6 before it blew= 1.41 60' and 6.10 at 113.26 in the 1/8th... it was flying!!! Had to be heading for a 9.50ish pass...
    Same Grand National but now with 455, 10.66@123.69

    The devils greatest trick was to convince the world he didn't exist...(Roger Kint aka Verbal from the movie The Usual Suspects)
    a must see...

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
    Posts
    27,643

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Palumbo View Post
    I am sure I am reving it high enough it come to a dead stop at 30* and will not go any higher.. Your point about the idle speed it a good one ( it does idle at 1100) I will check that tomorrow.
    Thanks, Don
    It may be easier to install some stiff springs(temporarily) so you are sure there is no mechanical advance in at idle speed, rather than try to lower the idle speed.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BCA # 37548
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    FLORIDA
    Posts
    197

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Yeah the stiffer springs is the thought pattern I had. I did it today and sure enough you were right. With the stiffer springs the timimg was only 8*. Reset timing with stiffer springs and bang total is now right where I wanted it to be at 36*. Reinstalled the lighter springs and now the car is ready for Bowling Green, we leave on Sunday
    Thanks again, Don
    Don Palumbo
    1965 GTO tri power, 4 speed, post car.
    1987 Grand National, Winner TSM GS Nationals Bowling Green 2006, 9.92 @ 136.88
    1964 Buick Skylark-Daily Driver.-SOLD-
    Last pass on V6 before it blew= 1.41 60' and 6.10 at 113.26 in the 1/8th... it was flying!!! Had to be heading for a 9.50ish pass...
    Same Grand National but now with 455, 10.66@123.69

    The devils greatest trick was to convince the world he didn't exist...(Roger Kint aka Verbal from the movie The Usual Suspects)
    a must see...

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Oakland Gardens, N.Y.
    Posts
    27,643

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Palumbo View Post
    Yeah the stiffer springs is the thought pattern I had. I did it today and sure enough you were right. With the stiffer springs the timimg was only 8*. Reset timing with stiffer springs and bang total is now right where I wanted it to be at 36*. Reinstalled the lighter springs and now the car is ready for Bowling Green, we leave on Sunday
    Thanks again, Don
    Great! See you at BG, I'll be there Wednesday-Sunday with some of the N.E. Gang at the Quality Inn.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BCA # 37548
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  19. #69
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville,N.C.
    Posts
    1,325

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Bohannon View Post
    If RACE engines should stay at 35 total timming or less after jetting and other factors are adjusted.....
    How about the STREET/STRIP engine with these common specs?
    9.0 to 10.5 compression
    .075-.095 deck height
    180-200 degrees engine temp
    224-235 duration on intake
    2800-3200 torque converter
    3200-5700 RPM range
    3.73-3.08 Gear ratio
    93 Octane fuel
    3800 LB. chassis
    100 plus temp. of under hood intake air

    I think most all RACE engines will have .040 deck height, polished chambers, cold air intake, etc, etc, and may have different timming needs..TRUE or FALSE??

    Mine won't get out of it's own way with 35 degrees timing. Thats about what I run spraying about 200HP of Nitrous.........
    I run about .070 deck height.......
    Every time I tried the "recommended-Buick-timing", it slowed down. Timing is combination dependent, not Buick dependent. Compression, quench, and cylinder pressure(cranking compression) are your biggest variables that will affect you timing requirements.
    Nitrous is just a "poor-man's blower" on a payment plan.
    Rick Crawford
    72 GS w/Nitrous'd 466
    8.96 @133
    5.50 @129.5 1/8mi, 1.36 60ft
    2009 Pontiac G8 GT 9.91 @138 -75 dryshot, 10.38@131 -N/A Fastest N/A G8 in the Country!
    2014 CTS-v 9.16@152 Fastest Blower-Only CTS-v and Title Champ! 4220 lbs

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    We lock our timing out of the distributor and do it all with the box. All Mallory stuff and we have never had a problem. I set the timing @ 36* total but we are @ 5000' of elevation.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    491

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    I have been reading this thread and learning a bunch.

    With 36* advance my Stock 71 stage 1 4 speed with mild cam stock heads, stock manifolds was turning 97 Mph in the 1/4 with a G Meter. I droped the timming back to 32* and MPH went up to 101 and gained about 4 tenths.

    Went from a 14.65 @ 97 on a 2.3 60' to a
    14.01 @ 101 on a 2.2 60'

    Now this was just easing it out of the hole on the street and not trying to launch. Was only looking to tune for a MPH indicator.

    My initial advance without any vacume is at 6*

    I may try droping it some more to 30* just to see what happens.

    Den
    70 GSX QQ, 4 Speed
    70 GS Stage 2 Sport Wagon full weight 11.60 @113
    87 GN, DBB GT67 turbo, 75# inj, Alky inj.
    87 Turbo T, Stock
    87 Grand National stock 11k miles
    1974 SD455 Trans am 4 sp, 18k miles
    70 Electra 2 dr 455, ported hds, 9" Ford posi/3.90's 13.4 @101 on white walls.

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Merryland
    Posts
    5,222

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    What octane? Sounds like it must have been detonating or at least pinging with the 36 deg.......

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    491

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by BQUICK View Post
    What octane? Sounds like it must have been detonating or at least pinging with the 36 deg.......
    90 octane is all we can get at the pump.

    I could not hear any pinging? I never seem to have audible pinging problem?
    I can hear a little if a lug it, but not under acceleration.

    We have good air here, that may help? 50-60 degrees at the time.

    I think I may put some 100 octane in her and see what happens? Play with the timming a little more.

    Den
    70 GSX QQ, 4 Speed
    70 GS Stage 2 Sport Wagon full weight 11.60 @113
    87 GN, DBB GT67 turbo, 75# inj, Alky inj.
    87 Turbo T, Stock
    87 Grand National stock 11k miles
    1974 SD455 Trans am 4 sp, 18k miles
    70 Electra 2 dr 455, ported hds, 9" Ford posi/3.90's 13.4 @101 on white walls.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Merryland
    Posts
    5,222

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    90 octane....ouch. Even if you don't hear detonation it can slow you up. One teltale is smoke on the top end from the pistons/rings rattling around and not sealing as well.
    I'd run 28 deg with less than 93 octane.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    491

    Default Re: Timing on your Race BBB's

    Quote Originally Posted by BQUICK View Post
    90 octane....ouch. Even if you don't hear detonation it can slow you up. One teltale is smoke on the top end from the pistons/rings rattling around and not sealing as well.
    I'd run 28 deg with less than 93 octane.

    Ill try dropping it back some more and find the right number for the low octane.

    Den
    70 GSX QQ, 4 Speed
    70 GS Stage 2 Sport Wagon full weight 11.60 @113
    87 GN, DBB GT67 turbo, 75# inj, Alky inj.
    87 Turbo T, Stock
    87 Grand National stock 11k miles
    1974 SD455 Trans am 4 sp, 18k miles
    70 Electra 2 dr 455, ported hds, 9" Ford posi/3.90's 13.4 @101 on white walls.

 

 
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