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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    DO NOT RUN GL-5 Gear Oil in your tranny it kills the syncros. Read the info below.



    REDLINE Synthetic Manual Transmission Lubricants

    GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION
    Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and
    transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant.
    GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials
    are not used in most synchromesh transmissions
    because the chemicals used to provide the extreme
    pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers,
    which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically,
    the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh
    transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one
    half. The extreme pressure requirements of spur gears
    and helical gears found in transmissions are not nearly
    as great as found in rear-wheel drive differentials. A
    GL-4 lubricant provides adequate protection for most
    manual transmissions, unless a unique design
    consideration requires the extra protection of a GL-5.
    The reason that many manufacturers have made
    recommendations of motor oils or ATFs is that petroleum
    80W gear oils frequently do not shift well at low
    temperatures. Motor oils and ATFs are much more fluid
    at lower temperatures and they are not corrosive toward
    synchros, but they provide very poor gear protection.
    These lubricants provide almost no extreme-pressure
    protection. In addition, petroleum multigrade motor oils
    and ATFs have very poor shear stability. The shearing
    action by a manual transmission on thickeners is much
    worse than in an engine or automatic transmission.
    Within 5,000 miles the thickeners can be rendered
    ineffective and the transmission will be operating on a
    much reduced level of protection, as shown in the graph
    below. In hot weather these transmissions will whine
    and rattle because of poor vibration dampening and
    metal contact. Red Line MTL and MT-90 provide the
    excellent gear protection of a GL-4 gear oil in a synthetic
    lubricant which spans hot and cold temperatures and will
    not shear or oxidize with use.
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  2. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Interesting, thanks Herb.
    Deceptively Proficient.

    Ted Nagel
    64 LeSabre Wagon
    65 Wildcat 4-speed
    65 Gran Sport 4-speed
    67 Wildcat
    68 GS 400
    69 GS Stage 1 4-speed
    70 GS Stage 1 4-speed

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,155

    Thumbs up Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Great post Herb.

    I run Amsoil Sythetic gear Lube (75-90, GL4) in my rebuilt Muncie M21.

    Works and shifts perfectly.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I am glad I found out before I filled my tranny, just had it done over with the overdrive, it looks like amsoil or redline is the way to go.
    Thanks
    Herb
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I checked last night and the Valvoline Syn gear oil in my trans is GL-5.

    I wonder if that occasional rattle I hear is as described in the Redline article?

    Time to drain it out and make a change, luckily it doesnt have to many passes or street miles with this oil.

    Thanks for the heads up Herb.
    Davis

    1965 Riviera Gran Sport Super Wildcat
    1968 GS350 with 462, AL Stg 1SE, M20-- 12.23@114.5
    1987 Regal Turbo T LC2 Y56 W02

    BPG #1128, GSCA #2316,

    "I'm out of the Midwest. It was a good place to come from. It give you a sense of right or wrong and fairness, which I think is lacking in our society." ---Steve McQueen

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Copenhagen,Denmark
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    this should be a "sticky" post
    Skylark GS 66 convertible
    4speed
    XXX black
    Matching numbers.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Definitely a costly mistake for someone that doesn't have this information.
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Stuck it now is.
    Davis

    1965 Riviera Gran Sport Super Wildcat
    1968 GS350 with 462, AL Stg 1SE, M20-- 12.23@114.5
    1987 Regal Turbo T LC2 Y56 W02

    BPG #1128, GSCA #2316,

    "I'm out of the Midwest. It was a good place to come from. It give you a sense of right or wrong and fairness, which I think is lacking in our society." ---Steve McQueen

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    mpls, Mn
    Posts
    1,895

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I wonder if this is why my trans is acting up, I bought my 72GS455 4 speed used and rebuilt the motor rear end but did not touch the trans because everything seemed Ok when I bought it. I replaced the trans lube with Valvoline 85 weight gear lube. I have driven the car approximately 600 miles and this problem has occurred several times. I will be driving and all of a sudden the trans will come out of gear, it seems to happen more frequently when I am cruising in fourth gear and let off of the gas, it has not happened under acceleration. I checked the gear lube contents tonight and sure enough it is the GL-5. I will change the gear lube with the GL-4 before I drive it again. Is there something else that can be causing the trans to pop into nuetral???
    Thanks
    Tim
    Tim
    72 GS455 4 speed 1 of 84
    TSP built 455. .030 over forged pistons, 9.3-1 cr, TA113 cam, ported 430 heads, TA headers, Performer intake, MSD digital 6 ign. 3.42 gears
    Dyno'd at 455hp, 518lbs torque
    13.01 at 108mph with a 2.28 60'

    Former cars:
    65 Lark with 430-4, TH400 13.85/101mph
    70 GS455 12.50/113.50mph
    68 Riviera
    72 Stage 1-4 speed Sloan Documented

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lawrenceburg TN
    Posts
    1,239

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I wonder if this is why my trans is acting up, I bought my 72GS455 4 speed used and rebuilt the motor rear end but did not touch the trans because everything seemed Ok when I bought it. I replaced the trans lube with Valvoline 85 weight gear lube. I have driven the car approximately 600 miles and this problem has occurred several times. I will be driving and all of a sudden the trans will come out of gear, it seems to happen more frequently when I am cruising in fourth gear and let off of the gas, it has not happened under acceleration. I checked the gear lube contents tonight and sure enough it is the GL-5. I will change the gear lube with the GL-4 before I drive it again. Is there something else that can be causing the trans to pop into nuetral???
    Thanks
    Tim
    My m-21 does the exact same thing. Upon deceleration in 4th it occasionally, actually more often than not, pops into neutral. I always thought I just had a syncro that was getting a little feeble. May have to check into this lube issue as I can't recall which type I changed it with when I had the motor out for rebuild. Great sticky Herb.
    Eddie Culp
    70 GSX 455 Stg. 1 4sp. (clone)
    71 GSX 350 auto (clone)
    66 skylark 340 4bbl. (sold )
    72 skylark (in cloning process)
    67 Evinrude Sportsman 225 odd-fire v6
    95 Riviera SC
    GSCA #1729

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Brownstown, MI
    Posts
    1,420

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    This is good info. I just went through this a few weeks ago when I bought parts to convert my M21 to an M20. The guy that rebuilds and sells Muncie parts locally told me the same thing. Stay away from anything that is GL5 rated or mentions that it is safe for hypoid gears. It will literally eat the synchros. He also had the opinion that synthetic should never be used in a Muncie. Too slippery for the synchros and can cause shifting problems down the road. Maybe an old school opinion but he's rebuilt probably thousands of Muncies so I will take his word.
    Problem is finding the stuff thats only rated GL4. What I have seen is some of the GL5 stuff will say it's safe for GL4 apps but on the description on the bottle it will say for use with hypoid gears. So be careful.
    The only GL4 I could find around here was the cheap no brand stuff.
    69 GS400 convertible 4-speed
    69 GS STG 2 10.04@130
    68/69 STEPCHILD NATION
    [IMG][/IMG]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    3,002

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    This comes up allot on TGO as factory GM said to use ATF in the T5, some still use 80-90 but its suppose to be to thick, some like me run straight 30w oil, not a multi oil. Some use a mix of both ATF and oil.

    Now some may know the T5 was or is considered a bit weak but in my searches into the subject. I found the folks who had a normal T5 behind some power and were able to make it last changed the trans fluids with every oil change.

    There were guy with stock 305s who could blow them out daily.
    And guys with built 400 with several race seasons with no problems.

    The ones that had the fewest problems changed it with the oil.

    Id say regardless of what you use, change your tranny fluid in your stick more often then ever 10-20 years like folks do for automatics and you will be cool.

  13. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    GL-4 is obsolete isn't it?
    MarkO
    "There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."-Raoul Duke
    Street Sleeper~'70 Skylark Holiday Coupe
    Build-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...ge-Find/page10
    N2O-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-Nitrous-facts
    Hydraulic Clutch &T/O Bearing-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-chime-in-here

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Brownstown, MI
    Posts
    1,420

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by moleary View Post
    GL-4 is obsolete isn't it?
    No you can still find it around although it is hard to find. Pennzoil still has it. Valvoline, Castrol and Quakerstate only show GL5 on their website.
    http://www.pennzoil.com/products/gea...ml#GearplusGL4
    69 GS400 convertible 4-speed
    69 GS STG 2 10.04@130
    68/69 STEPCHILD NATION
    [IMG][/IMG]

  15. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    So, If I plan to run AMSOIL Severe Gear SAE 75W-90 SYNTHETIC EXTREME PRESSURE LUBRICANT bar code ----97012 25601 should I be prepared to rebuild the trans in a year?.
    MarkO
    "There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."-Raoul Duke
    Street Sleeper~'70 Skylark Holiday Coupe
    Build-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...ge-Find/page10
    N2O-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-Nitrous-facts
    Hydraulic Clutch &T/O Bearing-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-chime-in-here

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Long Beach Indiana
    Posts
    915

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Over 15 years ago, we were driving the GSX to the Nationals in Bowling Green from Northern Illinois. Near Indy on I-65 we smelled smoke coming up through the shifter boot. It turns out that the bearing in the tail shaft extension housing must have been slightly out of round and our 70+ mph cruising for 250 miles was the final straw for that bearing and it popped out, leaking trans fluid on the exhaust. In effect, we drove the car for miles with no fluid in that trans until we could find a place to get help.

    When I returned home, I took the trans to a 4 speed expert for repair and we were amazed to discover that other than it needing a new tail shaft extension housing, all the gears all were in great shape thanks to the Red Line fluid we had in that trans. Paul
    70 GSX #645 QQ Stage 1 4 speed mostly original paint
    87 We4 Turbo T Original Owner 10.71@126

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I believe both redline and amsoil have a gl4 specific fluid.
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  18. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I have checked a couple sources who say that the AMSOIL doe snot make GL-4 anymore and most lube mfgr's just make products that meet multiple applications specifications. I talked to a roundy round racer pal that runs AMSOIL ATF in his MUNCIE and he does not have any issues.
    MarkO
    "There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."-Raoul Duke
    Street Sleeper~'70 Skylark Holiday Coupe
    Build-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...ge-Find/page10
    N2O-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-Nitrous-facts
    Hydraulic Clutch &T/O Bearing-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-chime-in-here

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    mpls, Mn
    Posts
    1,895

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Does anyone know what the cause of my trans slipping out of gear is, and how to fix it?
    Thanks
    Tim
    Tim
    72 GS455 4 speed 1 of 84
    TSP built 455. .030 over forged pistons, 9.3-1 cr, TA113 cam, ported 430 heads, TA headers, Performer intake, MSD digital 6 ign. 3.42 gears
    Dyno'd at 455hp, 518lbs torque
    13.01 at 108mph with a 2.28 60'

    Former cars:
    65 Lark with 430-4, TH400 13.85/101mph
    70 GS455 12.50/113.50mph
    68 Riviera
    72 Stage 1-4 speed Sloan Documented

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Here is the amsoil product
    Attached Images Attached Images
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Brownstown, MI
    Posts
    1,420

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Does anyone know what the cause of my trans slipping out of gear is, and how to fix it?
    Thanks
    Tim
    Couple things to check Tim. First check the adjustment on your shifter to be sure that fourth gear is engaging properly. If that seems ok then I would say that the synchro is worn and is not holding on anymore. Another possibility is the shift fork is severly worn down and is not pushing the slider up far enough. Often the shift fork will wear down when someone is driving with their hand resting on the shifter while it is in fourth gear. This can cause the fork to ride on the slider and wear out both the slider and the fork. Sounds like it may be time for a freshen up.
    69 GS400 convertible 4-speed
    69 GS STG 2 10.04@130
    68/69 STEPCHILD NATION
    [IMG][/IMG]

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,155

    Exclamation Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bostongsx View Post
    Here is the amsoil product
    I have used that for a few years. Works great.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cameron Park, CA
    Posts
    787

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Oh boy!!

    I recently changed fluids in both my Muncie and the rear-end with Valvoline gear oil. Bought it at the local AutoZone. I added the corect GM posi fluid to the rear-end and used it straight in the Muncie. I have about 150 miles on the car since changing fluids.

    I read this post and go out to check the Valvoline bottles and sure enough.....it says GL5 on the rear of the bottle. So, do I simply drain both and refill with a correct GL4 fluid, or do I need to flush each with something?

    I'm thankful for the board and people sharing info as I would have never even thought this could be a problem. I hope I haven't caused any harm with 150-200 miles with the GL5 fluids.

    So, flush or simply refill?

    Thanks!!

    Rob
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Rob Sarlan
    -------------------------------------
    1970 GSX #425 * QQ * 4 Speed * Authentic Iron Head Stage 2 Engine
    1965 Corvette Roadster * L79 * 4 Speed
    2004 Honda S2000
    -------------------------------------

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    2,121

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Good question Rob as I just did the same thing!!!!! CRAP
    MrBuickGS GSCA #53

  25. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    going Redline with my project
    MarkO
    "There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."-Raoul Duke
    Street Sleeper~'70 Skylark Holiday Coupe
    Build-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...ge-Find/page10
    N2O-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-Nitrous-facts
    Hydraulic Clutch &T/O Bearing-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-chime-in-here

 

 
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