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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Hermiston,Oregon
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I have been using Bel-Ray motorcycle transmission 85 wt in my ST10 and has no problems have used it for years now i have to go read the label and check.
    Oh well it has saved a bunch of T-5s as well.
    Thanks for the info.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    2,121

    Question Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Royal Purple Syn has GL-5 & GL-4 on the bottle. Is it safe? There Coastal brand has GL-5, GL-4 & GL-3 on there bottle. How about this? These lubes are at Advance Auto part's.
    MrBuickGS GSCA #53

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    No Not Safe


    Gl-4 Only
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    2,121

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Herb i've been all over & even had several part's managers try to find GL-4 only & can only get it in 140 wt, Now What?????????????
    MrBuickGS GSCA #53

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Order redline mtl from summit, jegs, or you local speed shop
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cameron Park, CA
    Posts
    787

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    OK - I just called and spoke with a tech at Red Line. I asked specifically about the GL4 & GL5 ratings as related to older muscle cars and asked about MUNCIE transmissions and the rear differentials as well.

    I mentioned that I had read the GL5 would cause problems in the older muscle car equipment with corrosion and wear on synchros and clutch packs. He stated that most common brand GL5 fluids do contain certain chemical additives (phosphates and sulphurs) that will cause issues with synchros and clutch packs. Red Line DOES NOT contain these chemical additives and is SAFE for use in Muncies and Rear Diffs.

    I ordered 2 quarts of each fluid for my tranny and diff. Cost from Summit was $53 delivered.

    Hope this is helpful info!

    Rob
    ========================================

    I asked which specific fluids to use in a Muncie Transmission and was told to use :

    75W90 NS
    This GL-5-type geal oil doesn't contain the friction modifiers for limited-slip hypoid differentials. This makes the transmission synchronizers come to equal speeds more quickly, allowing faster shifting and much easier low-temperature shifting. Can also be used in racing limited-slip differentials where weak spring design causes too much wheel spin.


    ************************************************** ******
    I asked which specific fluids to use in a Rear Differential and was told to use :

    75W90
    Our most popular gear oil, this is the preferred product in nearly all car and light truck differentials, both conventional and limited-slip. 75W90 is preferred for most racing applications. It contains friction modifier which is recommended for limited-slip units. 75W90 Gear Oil can be used in many transmissions and transaxles; however, other Red Line lubricants have better frictional properties for rapid synchronization. Exceeds API GL-5.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Rob Sarlan
    -------------------------------------
    1970 GSX #425 * QQ * 4 Speed * Authentic Iron Head Stage 2 Engine
    1965 Corvette Roadster * L79 * 4 Speed
    2004 Honda S2000
    -------------------------------------

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,155

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    The only gear oil I found to be GL-4 was Amsoil.

    The bottle says made for Muncie, Top Loader, etc.

    DO NOT USE GL-5. The additive in it reacts with brass at evelvated tempretures, and corrodes them.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Joliet, IL
    Posts
    1,395

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Anyone try Penzoil Syncromesh fluid? Supposedly not GL rated, but has a viscosity near 80W. The only place I have seen it sold is Murry's / O'reillys. I have read its compatible with older transmissions but would like some opinions before I drain and fill my M-20.
    Mike Prybell
    __________________
    72 GS Clone
    455 Stage 1
    4 Speed
    SOLD
    __________________
    08 Tundra CM 5.7 4x4
    Fat Bob 3/1 level kit
    Airaid CAI
    __________________
    CCGSCA # 118

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    2,121

    Talking Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Hey Guy's, I drained my M-21 of Valvoline Gl-5 & ordered MT-75-90 Redline like Rob said from Jegs (but got 4 quart's) for 53.00 del. Put it in & as I shifted into reverse I could tell a diff. right away, went a couple of blocks & It felt like I just had the tranny & shifter rebuilt!!! WOW what a change!! Don't mess around guy's Get Redline!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank's Rob & don't forget to look close @ bolt # 5 close to the wachamagiggy next to the thingamaggy, I think it has the wrong anchor on it Had a Great time meeting you at BPG & You have a REALLY nice X, buddy-----Lee
    MrBuickGS GSCA #53

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cameron Park, CA
    Posts
    787

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bacon View Post
    Hey Guy's, I drained my M-21 of Valvoline Gl-5 & ordered MT-75-90 Redline like Rob said from Jegs (but got 4 quart's) for 53.00 del. Put it in & as I shifted into reverse I could tell a diff. right away, went a couple of blocks & It felt like I just had the tranny & shifter rebuilt!!! WOW what a change!! Don't mess around guy's Get Redline!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank's Rob & don't forget to look close @ bolt # 5 close to the wachamagiggy next to the thingamaggy, I think it has the wrong anchor on it Had a Great time meeting you at BPG & You have a REALLY nice X, buddy-----Lee
    Lee,

    Glad to hear the gear fluid change had good results.

    I am on the hunt for the correct doohickey whatchamacallit and #5 screw/bolt with captured castillated star washer.

    Good to have met you and looking forward to next time!

    Rob
    Rob Sarlan
    -------------------------------------
    1970 GSX #425 * QQ * 4 Speed * Authentic Iron Head Stage 2 Engine
    1965 Corvette Roadster * L79 * 4 Speed
    2004 Honda S2000
    -------------------------------------

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston,MA
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I am glad we found this out before it hurt our trannys
    HERB L.
    BOSTON, MA


    GNX #016
    GNX #132
    1986 WH1
    1984 Grand National
    1974 Apollo GSX
    1971 Stage 1 Auto
    1970 GSX Stage 1 Auto 10-10
    1969 Skylark Convertible
    1965 Riviera Custom
    1965 Riviera GS
    Finishline Built Stage 2 Iron Head Engine

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    2,121

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Keep looking Rob!!! it's under there somewhere See you next time!
    MrBuickGS GSCA #53

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    macomb township mi
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I am so glad I recently joined this forum, It's tips like this that save major Time and Money.
    thanks again

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Columbia Station, Ohio
    Posts
    1,019

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Just curious if anybody is familiar with 5speeds dot com? its says(post by Paul of Medatronic Corp):

    If I may shed some light on the war. After seeing thousands of Muncies this whole GL5 - GL4 thing is some marketing hype nonsense put on by the synth manufacturers to justify the overpriced crap they are selling. I've never seen any rings ever corroded. Nor have I seen thrust washers, and bushing fall apart because of the CORROSIVE EFFECT of the GL5!

    That being said, most people here will not push their transmissions to the extreme temps that synths offer better protection with.

    Consider this. Where extreme conditions exist, be it cold or high heat during a Nascar race, synths have some merit. However having dealt with every manufacturer that makes transmissions for Nascar, NONE use or recommend the common hyped up stuff you see advertized in your favorite mag. Synchros are not an issue, since these race transmissions don't have them. What is paramount, is protection (the gears) from heat checking and galling. Your Red Lines and Amsoils fail at that. Sorry, but the big boys may use these "popular oils" in engines but rarely in gear boxes. Please I know some guy is going to respond with the "my box runs XXXX, and it works great", good for you, bravo.

    However I have documented that the Royal Purple Max Gear and Mobil One gear lubes work quite well on the track and shifting is fine on fairly concentric synchro rings.

    Once a ring is egg shaped from being overheated, a thinner oil can help. So a tired worn synchro ring may come to life with the use of GM Synchromesh fluid. Yes, you can use it in a ST10 or Muncie, but the Muncie may leak more.

    If you're happy with what works for you, keep in mind it may not work for others because the most critical component that people base their oil wars on is how a unit shifts. Older transmissions with worn rings may react better to some oils or become problematic yet with others.

    I have seen more shifting issues decline rather than improve with the use of Synth oils and in fact have seen synchros crack in race application because the rings where skidding on the gear cones, vibrating and coming apart..... again racing.

    I think I see army tanks coming.... I'm outta here...

    Paul

    Any Thoughts?
    Gary
    1970 GS 350 4 Speed
    Looking for a vert

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    LI,NY
    Posts
    20,011

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    For those of you that are on the hunt for GL-4 gear oil and cant find it, my local NAPA stocks it in 1 gallon bottles. Made by Sta-Lube. It is GL-4 specific. So if anyone needs it, try your local NAPA.
    Jason Cook
    BPG #1675
    "Expert in obsolete technology"

    1968 Riviera GS- some assembly required
    1969 Riviera GS- my first car
    1969 GS-350
    1970 Stage 1 4 speed Aquamist
    1970 GS-455 Bamboo Cream beater
    1971 GS 455 11.93@113.36
    1972 GS-350
    1970 Stellar Industries vintage go kart

    Deo duce, ferro comitante

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    925

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buick64203 View Post
    For those of you that are on the hunt for GL-4 gear oil and cant find it, my local NAPA stocks it in 1 gallon bottles. Made by Sta-Lube. It is GL-4 specific. So if anyone needs it, try your local NAPA.
    Lason

    I have search on many forums on this matter. Jason is correct that Sta-lube is the only non synthetic GL-4 around and that is the what is need for these muncies. I will be installing it in my muncie tomorrow.

    George
    George

    1971 GS350 4 speed p/s (62k miles)

    1972 GS455 auto p/s p/b (233k miles)

    2004 GTO W40 6 speed (3k miles) SOLD! 12-1-2012

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    A couple years ago, I finished my project which has an M-20, it looks like I ignorantly filled it with GL-5. I had replaced the synchro rings myself during the rebuild, not too scary of a job if you are patient and have the exploded drawings. Anyway, my symptom is chronic need to adjust the clutch because the shifter will get very stiff in 1st & reverse, especially at high idle. I think there is also a Whine from the countergear assy in 1st. Could this switch to GL-4 be the cure? Also, I heard someone say that you should only use GL-3 which comes from the GM counter. Any thoughts? Thanks, Ed

  18. #43
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Columbus, Georgia
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buick64203 View Post
    For those of you that are on the hunt for GL-4 gear oil and cant find it, my local NAPA stocks it in 1 gallon bottles. Made by Sta-Lube. It is GL-4 specific. So if anyone needs it, try your local NAPA.
    Ken Klazura, owner of U.S. Speed Research, is a well known transmission builder and re-builder. He is the inventer of the Twin Turbo 400 trans used in hot rods, pro street machines, monster trucks, mud dragsters, tractors, and more. Ken also builds street rods and has rebuilt thousands of transmissions. Recently, I had him rebuild my Super T-10 to go with the 496 big block Chevy stroker motor that is in my American Graffiti '55 Chevy two-door sedan clone car, and Ken also rebuilt my Muncie M-20 and an M-21 for my two 1969 Buick Gran Sport coupes. For the third '69 GS, a convertible, he rebuilt and customized the TurboHydraMatic 375 into a Turbo 400, and on and on.

    With that as background, as I was about to install the M-21 in one of the GS coupes, I had to run all over the place and talk to various experts, including the Valvoline technician hot line, to sort this GL-4 and GL-5 situation out before proceeding.

    Ken Klazura is adamant about the additives that most commonly available GL-5 lubes have; they will eat the brass synchros and cause other types of mayhem. But, as we know, it is very difficult to find the right lube, or to find GL-4 in the 85W-140 consistency.

    Below is the response from the Valvoline tech on-line, and, moreover, I recommend the use of the Sta-Lube GL-4, available at NAPA and at Amazon.com, as well as try to voice our needs to the major lube manufauturers to PLEASE provide us with what we need.

    The GL-5 with no additives, etc., is also ok from what I know, but I would rather use an appropriate GL-4. I did install the Valvoline GL-5 in the M-22 but have not driven the car yet.

    Has anyone used the Valvoline GL-5 -- what have the results been for you so far? THANKS!

    > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:56:55 -0400
    > From: ValvTechLine@ashland.com
    > To: 1969buickGS
    > Subject: Re: GL-4 and GL-5 manual transmission lubricants

    The Valvoline Gear Oils can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers and differentials without causing any type of corrosion to yellow metals.
    ----------------------------
    From: 1969buickGS
    Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:52:35 PM
    To: valvtechline@ashland.com
    CC:
    > Subject: Re: GL-4 and GL-5 manual transmission lubricants

    Feedback type: I have a question/comment about a product

    Comments:
    Please comment on the corrosive properties of your GL-5 gear lube now sitting in my 1969 Buick Gran Sport four-speed transmission, pursuant to the following Internet findings:
    GL4 versus GL5
    from: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=120197&page=3
    GL5 is a different spec, and is not 'backwards compatible' with GL4. GL5 gear oil is a lubricant with very high extreme pressure performance needed for Hypoid gears where sliding and rolling contacts operate under very high loadings. This is achieved by incorporating high concentration of sulfur-based additives. The downside to such high sulfur in oil is it tends to corrode yellow metals, so can ruinparts like brass synchronizers and some bushings. So any equipment needing GL5 performance is designed taking this limitation of the lubricant into account.

    GL4 oils are much more friendly to yellow metals, and so are used in equipment where such high load sliding-rolling contacts aren't present. The designers of such equipment aren't as limited in the use of brass parts. So the bottom line is that if your equipment calls for GL4 it probably doesn't need GL5 performance, and you may be asking for trouble down the line if you use a lube it wasn't designed for.

    From: http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic33390.htm
    [Quoted from www.pennzoil.com]
    What happens if API GL-5 gear oil is used in an API GL-4 gear oil application?
    API GL-4 and API GL-5 products typically use the same extreme pressure (EP) additive system, with the API GL-5 having about twice the concentration of a API GL-4. In service, these additives become active under extreme load and temperature when the protective oil film can be squeezed away. EP additives work by forming wear-resistant compounds with the metal of the gear tooth surface. As the gears mesh, these compounds shield the gear teeth from direct metal-to-metal contact that would cause wear and damage to the gears. If too little of the active additive is present, proper protection would be compromised.

    Too much of this additive could cause excessive chemical corrosion of the gear surface. If an API GL-5 gear oil is used in a application where API GL-4 gear oil is called for, chemical corrosion of "yellow metal" components may occur, such as bronze synchronizers, brass bushings, etc. This may lead to shifting difficulties or shortened equipment life.
    [End Quote]
    1969buickGS

  19. #44
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Columbus, Georgia
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Also, one other important factor for our Oldie manual trannies, is the slippery lube properties and additives in most of the synthetic gear lubricants available.

    Again, transmission expert Ken Klazura mandates that no GL-5 be used, and that no synthetic trans lube be used either.

    The slippery stuff does not allow the synchros to work properly is what he told me.
    1969buickGS

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Thanks to you guys, I got wise to this fluid issue. I finished my '73 Cutlass (M-20) a couple seasons ago and after rebuilding it myself filled it with GL-5. VERY sticky, especially if RPM's were not just right. After hunting around for the GL-4, I found an NOS bottle of GL-3 I bought in 1980! What a difference, much smoother. BTW, GL-4 is only $30/ gallon at NAPA. Thanks Again, Ed BTW, I will change it again next spring be sure it is all new.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Columbus, Georgia
    Posts
    90

    Wink Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    OK, great -- congratulations!

    Now, please share the NAPA product description and Part Number so everyone can get some GL-4 and help spread the wealth around a little bit, thank you!
    1969buickGS

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    LI,NY
    Posts
    20,011

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1969buickGS View Post
    OK, great -- congratulations!

    Now, please share the NAPA product description and Part Number so everyone can get some GL-4 and help spread the wealth around a little bit, thank you!

    Its made by Sta Lube. The 1 gallon bottle is Sta Lube pt # SL24239. I just put it in my GS last weekend. Big difference in the shift quality. Seems to shift much smoother.
    Jason Cook
    BPG #1675
    "Expert in obsolete technology"

    1968 Riviera GS- some assembly required
    1969 Riviera GS- my first car
    1969 GS-350
    1970 Stage 1 4 speed Aquamist
    1970 GS-455 Bamboo Cream beater
    1971 GS 455 11.93@113.36
    1972 GS-350
    1970 Stellar Industries vintage go kart

    Deo duce, ferro comitante

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Canton Michigan
    Posts
    724

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buick64203 View Post
    Its made by Sta Lube. The 1 gallon bottle is Sta Lube pt # SL24239. I just put it in my GS last weekend. Big difference in the shift quality. Seems to shift much smoother.
    Just added the Sta-Lube from NAPA 2 weeks ago and as everyone else says, It does make a difference in shift feel!
    I did a 150 mile + cruise to the Back to the Bricks yesterday and the trans never shifted better!
    Scott Palmer
    1970 GS455 4speed
    12.60 @ 111
    1974 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400 4 speed
    Resto in progress! Future PS wanna be

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,867

    Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    I put an M22 Super Case Muncie from Auto Gear in my GS in 2007. Filled it with GL-5 like Auto Gear said to do. I found a GL-5 that was also MT-1 compatible per the label. The trans would hang up between 2nd and 3rd a LOT, and sometimes would hang up in reverse. BIG pain in the rear, and many burned hands and arms reaching under the car and across the headers "unsticking" the shifter.

    After MANY attempts adjusting the linkage I pulled the shifter and sent it out to Shifter Pete for rebuild. Came back like new and guess what, still hanging up like always.

    Basically parked the car in 08 tired of messing with it.

    Then lo and behold I come across this thread a few days ago! I dash out to Summitt and pick up some Red Line, come home and drop the plug on the M22. Once the silver and copper colored GL-5 is finished dripping into the pan I fill the M22 with the Red Line. Take the car out, and after putting more miles on it than I have since the tranny went in in 07 it has only hung up between 2nd and 3rd twice. Some of these miles were speed shifting and otherwise banging thru the gears just to see if I could get it to hang up.

    I think I will put a few more outings on it and then drop the plug again and give it another dose of Red Line in hopes of getting all of the contaminants out.

    While I'm glad I found out about the proper fluid for this transmission, I'm still pissed at Auto Gear and the oil mfg's for recommending a faulty product.

  25. Default Re: 4 Speed Owners Must Read!!!!!

    This is the combo for your Muncie or AutoGear tansmissions if anyone is wondering Combine equal parts.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    MarkO
    "There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."-Raoul Duke
    Street Sleeper~'70 Skylark Holiday Coupe
    Build-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...ge-Find/page10
    N2O-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-Nitrous-facts
    Hydraulic Clutch &T/O Bearing-> http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...-chime-in-here

 

 
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