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  1. #1
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    Default Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    Dear V-8 Buick fans,

    I'm trying to nail down the specs for a 430 V-8 that I will have rebuilt soon. It will have some nice enhancements like TA Performance Stage-1 aluminum heads, beefed up cooling and stuff like that. These changes should reduce the risk of pinging. The cam planned for the rebuild is the TA Performance 212.

    However, the goal is a mild-mannered workhorse engine for a station wagon. So I want it work reliably on available gasoline (although I'm willing to burn premium).

    The current configuration will give the engine a static compression ratio of about 10:1 and a dynamic compression ratio of 8:1. I've been getting conflicting opinions about what are the compression ratios are okay on today's fuels (i.e. no ping problems).

    So what are the compression ratios that folks are using in their cars? I've heard that some folks have problems with 10:1 (complaining about poor quality gas in their area). Others claim that they are running at 12:1 on premium without any problems at all.

    Could all the Buick faithful share with me their experiences on this question?

    Thanks in advance!

    Cheers, Edouard

  2. #2
    No Lift is offline Platinum Level Contributor
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    You should have no problem with the 212, aluminum heads, and 10:1. I ran the same cam, the same compression, steel heads, 455, and 4250 lbs with no knock. The TA 212 or something like it is probably the best all around cam especially for a heavier car.

    I stay away from full throttle blasts when the car is hot with the AC on hot days. If I have to go to full throttle I tend to downshift manually to get the revs up a bit before I floor it. Too much of a lag waiting for the auto downshift to kick in. No sense in tempting fate.

    You do have to run premium if you want to run full timing though.
    Mike Pesarchick
    BPG #1572
    NE GSGN #29
    GSCA #8
    USFRA "130 MPH Club" member

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    Save your money on the heads. Stock heads will work great with a pocket port. Build for more torque and gear accordingly. I would put the $2400 in your pocket and cam the car correctly. Scott Brown will help you custom grind a profile you will be so pleased with. Hundreds of thousands of dollars went into the design and testing of stock parts. Look at how strong many people run as all iron motors. See Trishield performance for diamond pistons with anti detonation grooves , use your stock rods, stock exhaust manifolds, open up the ends, mill the stock intake to resemble a B4B, rejet the q-jet accordingly.
    I think you will be pretty impressed.
    BIG BLOCK POWER HOUSES
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 pure stock 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 MT Headers 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1972 GS Stage 1 flame orange poly
    original rear 3.42 posi.
    (1) 1970 Stage 1, silver mist with black top.
    undergoing frame off resto.3.64 posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 C/SA race car restored(Bumungus)
    (1) 1972 Stage 1 stock appearing black on black
    For 2012 pure stocks. Hopefully 4 speed.
    (1) 1967 special with a 455
    (1) 1987 Turbo T grey with factory red pin stripe

  4. #4
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    Default Aluminum heads for other reasons (Re: compression ratios for street use?)

    Dear No Lift and C.Rob,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question. So far what I've heard suggests that I should stick to something close to the 10:1 compression ratio that I've come up with given the preliminary estimates of parameters.

    Quote Originally Posted by C.Rob View Post
    Save your money on the heads. Stock heads will work great with a pocket port. Build for more torque and gear accordingly. I would put the $2400 in your pocket and cam the car correctly.
    Unfortunately the "tale" of my car has been repeated a few times in various places (such as here: http://www.v8buick.com/showpost.php?...21&postcount=6) so I'm trying to spare folks the retelling. In summary, attempting to machine the stock iron heads properly would be risky and expensive. In the end, the cost of trying to stick with the stock heads would be almost as much and no guarantee I would end up with anything other than scrap iron.

    Quote Originally Posted by C.Rob View Post
    Scott Brown will help you custom grind a profile you will be so pleased with. Hundreds of thousands of dollars went into the design and testing of stock parts. Look at how strong many people run as all iron motors. See Trishield performance for diamond pistons with anti detonation grooves , use your stock rods, stock exhaust manifolds, open up the ends, mill the stock intake to resemble a B4B, rejet the q-jet accordingly. I think you will be pretty impressed.
    Actually, other kind folks have been nice enough to run some computer simulations of this proposed engine components and the TA Performance 212 cam looks like a very good match for the task I have intended for the car: a tow-vehicle and 60s area "SUV" (aka American station wagon.) I'm trying to use as much of the original parts as is practical - but. The engine is coming from a 67 Electric 225. The car is a 65 Buick Special wagon. It will take some "adjustments" to make everything fit!

    So I'm certainly trying to take a reasonably conservative path. The car has been in the family since I was 7 years old and I intend to keep it for as long as I'm able!

    Cheers, Edouard

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    I would stay below 8.2:1 dynamic with aluminum heads and 93 octane and below 8:1 dynamic with iron heads and 93.
    Scott

  6. #6
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    Default Erson - who? (Re: compression ratios for street use?)

    Hello Mark!

    Quote Originally Posted by supremeefi View Post
    I'd recommend an Erson TQ40, 220/228 on a 110 or even a JB100, 228/235 on a 112. These cams were designed for stock or nearly stock headed American V-8's. If go with aluminum heads we can custom grind you something a bit different as well. Erson has decades of experience in this arena as well, that's why I do what I do.
    Okay, when information like this is provided . . . I'm always game to let Google loose on it and see what I come up with - but . . . . I can't seem to find anything on Erson. There appears to be a website URL: http://www.erson-cams.com/. However, this takes me to: The Prestolite Performance Group. This has all sorts of other goodies: Accel, Mallory, and so on, but no Erson. Has Erson been recently acquired and the "website boys" are a little behind? Is there any place to get a catalog of cam offers to see what they got?

    Cuz, as old-fashioned as I may be, in some things I'm positively geeky. If you can't find it in Google - it doesn't exist!

    Cheers, Edouard

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    I tend to agree with Scott on a DCR. I did an engine with a 10/1 SCR & 8.4 DCR (sbc) however it had exellent alum heads, exellent cooling system to never go above 190*, .036" quench and the timing was set for 32* max. & 3,000. 3.55's rear with a wide ratio muncie. The guy never had an issue for 2 years until one of his old buddies moved the timing ahead, then it detonated like a popcorn machine. All I could think about was the hyp pistons exploding. I reset the timing and it has been great ever since. If you are going to push the limit you need the timing/cooling and a good carb (a little rich if anything) set correctly, and good quench.
    Without FI and a knock sensor/computer to back the timing up I would go about 8.2 dcr but again only if you are set up for it.
    Ray

  8. #8
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    Default Thanks - I won't push it! (Re: compression ratios for street use?)

    Dear Scott and Ray,

    Thanks for your feedback that reassures me that this is in reasonable ballpark to be in.

    Quote Originally Posted by RG67BEAST View Post
    I tend to agree with Scott on a DCR. I did an engine with a 10/1 SCR & 8.4 DCR (sbc) however it had exellent alum heads, exellent cooling system to never go above 190*, .036" quench and the timing was set for 32* max. & 3,000. 3.55's rear with a wide ratio muncie.
    I intend to have a very good cooling system. The car is supposed to be a workhorse and tow vehicle rather than a racer. Still, that's even more reason to play it safe. I had an error in my calculations and the current Dynamic Compression Ratio is about 8.1. However, that's all preliminary. The goal is to keep it right about 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by RG67BEAST View Post
    If you are going to push the limit you need the timing/cooling and a good carb (a little rich if anything) set correctly, and good quench. Without FI and a knock sensor/computer to back the timing up I would go about 8.2 dcr but again only if you are set up for it.
    Thanks for tips on succeeding on the high end. I'll keep all this in mind as the engine finally starts coming together.

    Cheers, Edouard

  9. #9
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    Angry Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    I don't understand. If it's a workhorse what's wrong with 370 hp and 510ftlbs of torque? If all your after is a little rumble just run 70 style pistons, .040 felpro blues, and a cam of 112 l/c. Keep your duration around 220/235 and lift around 470-490. You will still have some good low end power but it will really come alive under full throttle.
    BIG BLOCK POWER HOUSES
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 pure stock 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 MT Headers 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1972 GS Stage 1 flame orange poly
    original rear 3.42 posi.
    (1) 1970 Stage 1, silver mist with black top.
    undergoing frame off resto.3.64 posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 C/SA race car restored(Bumungus)
    (1) 1972 Stage 1 stock appearing black on black
    For 2012 pure stocks. Hopefully 4 speed.
    (1) 1967 special with a 455
    (1) 1987 Turbo T grey with factory red pin stripe

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    Quote Originally Posted by C.Rob View Post
    I don't understand. If it's a workhorse what's wrong with 370 hp and 510ftlbs of torque? If all your after is a little rumble just run 70 style pistons, .040 felpro blues, and a cam of 112 l/c. Keep your duration around 220/235 and lift around 470-490. You will still have some good low end power but it will really come alive under full throttle.
    It's easy to understand. The 212 cam's duration, lift and lobe center is in the range you describe, and the compression ratio's already been mentioned. There are no deep dish, low compression pistons off the shelf for a 430 unless you get them made.

    This is a 430 we're talking about...not a 455.

    Devon
    Fuel & Brake Systems Engineer
    "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Feynman
    "Good data is precious. The problem I have is when some damned fool fails to use it properly." - Slingerland

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    I sell complete piston sets for the 430 in any size they need. I even sell a complete kit with pistons, rings, floatings pins in the .927 size with bushings and wrist pin clips. From STD bore to any bore. I even have anti detonation rings and short skirts. Pistons weight is about 620 grams. Kit is about $999.00
    BIG BLOCK POWER HOUSES
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 pure stock 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 MT Headers 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1972 GS Stage 1 flame orange poly
    original rear 3.42 posi.
    (1) 1970 Stage 1, silver mist with black top.
    undergoing frame off resto.3.64 posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 C/SA race car restored(Bumungus)
    (1) 1972 Stage 1 stock appearing black on black
    For 2012 pure stocks. Hopefully 4 speed.
    (1) 1967 special with a 455
    (1) 1987 Turbo T grey with factory red pin stripe

  12. #12
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    Smile Only 370 HP? - not me! (Re: compression ratios for street use?)

    Dear C.Rob,

    I don't fully understand your proposed alternative engine configuration, but I've been working hard on this engine configuration for weeks. Even with generally available aftermarket components it is no sleeper. The overall description of the engine configuration can be found here: http://www.teambuick.com/forums/showthread.php?20059-The-quot-epic-quot-430-rebuild-caper!

    Quote Originally Posted by C.Rob View Post
    I don't understand. If it's a workhorse what's wrong with 370 hp and 510ftlbs of torque? If all your after is a little rumble just run 70 style pistons, .040 felpro blues, and a cam of 112 l/c. Keep your duration around 220/235 and lift around 470-490. You will still have some good low end power but it will really come alive under full throttle.
    Now I'm the one who doesn't understand. With the proposed components, this engine should give me 30 more horsepower (and essentially the same torque) as your proposal. This is shown on the following engine simulation (also part of the Team Buick thread and thanks to the good Dr. Frankenbuick)



    So I do thank you for your offer, and I'll take the time to understand exactly what sort of pistons you have available. However, I'm all very new to this, so all things being equal I do want to stick with a conservative choice of components. If that gets me 400 HP, what more could I want!

    Cheers, Edouard

    P.S. Nevermind the fact that I never drove the car when it was capable of much more than 200 HP. At this point, I'm not going to quibble!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    Edouard,

    It's OK to dismiss C.Rob's comments, I think it's obvious he didn't read your first post describing your engine and plans, he didn't even realize which engine you're working on, and not one to offer objective input.

    To me it seems you're well on your way and doing fine without worrying about that sort of uneducated feedback.

    Devon
    Fuel & Brake Systems Engineer
    "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Feynman
    "Good data is precious. The problem I have is when some damned fool fails to use it properly." - Slingerland

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    I followed what his plans were. I am not sure what a ta 212 cam is. I know what would work for him to achieve his goal. Who said nobody has pistons for a 430? I have them produced in different compression heights for people. I can run the .999 pin if he would like. I don't feel he needs to go to aftermarket heads to run cool and a cam selection for his intended use should be chosen. I think a KB MK2 would be pleasant.
    BIG BLOCK POWER HOUSES
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 pure stock 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 MT Headers 3.64 Posi
    (1) 1972 GS Stage 1 flame orange poly
    original rear 3.42 posi.
    (1) 1970 Stage 1, silver mist with black top.
    undergoing frame off resto.3.64 posi
    (1) 1970 Stage 1 C/SA race car restored(Bumungus)
    (1) 1972 Stage 1 stock appearing black on black
    For 2012 pure stocks. Hopefully 4 speed.
    (1) 1967 special with a 455
    (1) 1987 Turbo T grey with factory red pin stripe

  15. #15
    No Lift is offline Platinum Level Contributor
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    KB MK2H 214°I 228°E 113°LSA .478"I .494"E(w/1.60 rockers)

    TA 212 218°I 230°E 112°LSA .473"I .485"E

    For all intents and purposes a 212 is a very slightly bigger MK2H.

    He has explained that his iron heads are pretty much shot and he doesn't want to waste money on them.

    You're effectively building the engine minus a few cubes that Car Craft said they would build as a sleeper when they tested aluminum heads and cams on a 455 a few years back. The good flowing heads will stretch the power band of the 212 cam right out to 5500 rpm. I wouldn't agonize over your planned combo one bit. Build it and you'll be happy.

    I'd use a bigger oversized piston.(minimum +.060" = 442") A 430 block will easily take it.
    Mike Pesarchick
    BPG #1572
    NE GSGN #29
    GSCA #8
    USFRA "130 MPH Club" member

  16. #16
    No Lift is offline Platinum Level Contributor
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    Car Craft articles that are from June/July 2009. I don't know why they mention Part 3 but there was never any that I remember. There's a thread around here that talks about these articles.

    Good reading. Check out what it says on page 3 of Part 2.

    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ons/index.html

    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ads/index.html
    Mike Pesarchick
    BPG #1572
    NE GSGN #29
    GSCA #8
    USFRA "130 MPH Club" member

  17. #17
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    Default Thanks to all for helping out a newbie! (Re: Static and dynamic)

    Dear V-8 Buick members,

    I'm sorry I'm really in a "chore squeeze" so this will have to be a super quick reply. To do greatly appreciate all the replies and even if some are a little off target, I do try to learn all I can.

    If I'm getting a little "defensive" it's because - someday I actually want to build an engine - not just think about it!!

    So when folks suggest alternative pistons or cams or whatever, I'm going to play a little hard to get. The selections I've made have been reasonably well documented to be good all-around choices. If I could really get a better cam or piston or whatever, I'm willing to consider it. Still I need more than reputation or raw cam specs. If there is something that I am genuinely frustrated about is that comparing possible engine arrangements is really very, very difficult. It is an obvious place where computer simulations could be very helpful. However, I couldn't locate any engine simulation software for amateurs (and a price that matched,) and I don't know how much effort I would want to invest in learning how to do it.

    So, hope folks can understand my point of view - I want my car running! (not that this is going to happen anytime soon anyway. )

    Quote Originally Posted by No Lift View Post
    Car Craft articles that are from June/July 2009. I don't know why they mention Part 3 but there was never any that I remember. There's a thread around here that talks about these articles.

    Good reading. Check out what it says on page 3 of Part 2.

    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ons/index.html

    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ads/index.html
    Mike, thank very much for these article references. I think I found the missing third article:

    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ild/index.html

    Not only does Car Craft end up choosing an engine arrangement very close to the one I've finally settled on, but they took their 455 and put it in: a 1965 Buick Special Wagon! Exactly the same car model I have. Is that a good fit or what!

    Okay, back to the next chore!

    Thanks again to everyone!!

    Cheers, Edouard

  18. #18
    No Lift is offline Platinum Level Contributor
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    Default Re: Static and dynamic compression ratios for street use?

    That '65 wagon article is a rehash of the origiinal article. It was originally installed many years ago. I couldn't locate the original article on the internet. That engine was just a cosmetic cleanup of a stocker from the yard not the buildup they have in the newer article. Still a nice coincidence.

    PS: I have a '65 GS with a 455.
    Mike Pesarchick
    BPG #1572
    NE GSGN #29
    GSCA #8
    USFRA "130 MPH Club" member

 

 

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