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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Engine simply dies like turning the key off, it'll cut the fuel and ignition. The ECU see's no rpm then it won't fire the injectors or command spark. It'd be less dramatic than when my alternator belt snapped and took out the power feed to the HEI, cause it still had a tach signal the injectors continued to fire throwing raw fuel in the hot headers at WOT at 6,000rpm, D'oh!
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Framingham, Ma
    Posts
    2,784

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    So it's more annoying than anything if the sensor loses its signal. That's a little more reassuring. I wasn't sure if it was using a crank sensor in tandem with a cam sensor or if it was using them seperately to control fuel and spark independant of each other. I've seen efi systems set up in many ways depending on the programming requirements. It's amazing the stuff you can do with junkyard parts and enough knowledge to be dangerous

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I don't have a cam sensor, no need with out sequential EFI, though I may use a GN sensor/oil pump drive at some point in the future, just not have it plugged in.

    The big "fear" is if the sensor comes loose the clearance between the sensor and the trigger wheel is close, so if it rotates the trigger wheel will likely tag and destroy the sensor, and this sensor isn't an off the shelf part (one reason I may find something else...). But if that failure does occur I can plug the tach signal wire back into my distributor pickup coil and with a few key strokes on the key board be on the road again. I don't leave town with out my laptop so no worry there (or ten minutes on the internet on a borrowed laptop then out to the car).

    I know just enough to be dangerous haha.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Made up my semi-permanent crank trigger mount. This is a newly made one not the other one riveted together. I'll use this one until I make another one up to be welded together. Hopefully tomorrow I get the engine running off the crank trigger.





    Last edited by TheSilverBuick; 02-08-2015 at 12:58 PM.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Looking better!

    Who's sensor are you using?

    Paul

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I'm going to make up another bracket and mail it off to a friend of mine that'll tig it together and mail it back, should be about $10 round trip

    My EFI guy gave it to me at Drag Week, the brand name is Cherry, I'd have to look up the part number, and don't really know where to buy one. I am a little leery about using it since it's not an off the auto parts store shelf part, but I do prefer a hall sensor over the stock Ford Escort VR sensor (matches the trigger wheel) I was going to use. Worse case, for as long as I have the distributor in there if something happens to the sensor I can plug the tach wire back into the pickup coil in the distributor.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    It is a Cherry GS100502.
    http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/se...s1005_1009.htm

    Make sure the MegaSquirt circuitry is supplying the correct pull-up resistor between the brown and black sensor leads (as shown in the sensor block diagram).

    You can buy the sensor from any of the online electronic suppliers but Digikey is one of the cheapest.
    I make most of my electronic purchases from Digikey.

    http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/948...-gs100502.html

    Paul

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Cheap and functional, that sounds about right, LOL. I'm going to be using a switched positive 12V (probably the same power feed as the MS) and a local ground, then just the signal wire will go to the MS input.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilverBuick View Post
    Cheap and functional, that sounds about right, LOL. I'm going to be using a switched positive 12V (probably the same power feed as the MS) and a local ground, then just the signal wire will go to the MS input.
    Easy is good. I recommend using a 2.7K pull-up resistor since the actually voltage can be over 14 volts.

    It would be best if you used a shielded cable and ran the 3 sensor wires back to the MegaSqiurt box.
    This way the sensor can ground at the same point as the MS box along with the cable shield

    Use a 3 pin weatherpack connector at the sensor to connect it to the shielded cable.

    Paul

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    11,472

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Quote Originally Posted by pmuller9 View Post
    Easy is good. I recommend using a 2.7K pull-up resistor since the actually voltage can be over 14 volts.

    Paul
    Would not this be a upgrade that would sell. Why not have water-jet or CNC made brackets and build kits to sell. Its a great idea to update our ignition systems.
    John & Terry Kemper
    GSCA #4322
    BPG #1373


    70 Sportwagon

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Since the spec's say it can run off of 5v-24v, I've done at least a first pass tied it right into the TPS ref 5v and ground on the relay board. If I find this causes issues with the TPS (only used for accel shot and flood clearing) then I'll rewire accordingly. The sensor wires actually reached my firewall without adding wire So for the moment it's running unshielded, but I do have the shielded tach wire still running to the pickup coil in the HEI, it'll be an easy switch over if I do have electrical issues. I expect less issue out of a Hall sensor than a VR, but I could just be naive.

    Would not this be a upgrade that would sell. Why not have water-jet or CNC made brackets and build kits to sell. Its a great idea to update our ignition systems.
    To do this again, I have $3 in 3ft aluminum box tubing, $3 in 3ft of aluminum angle stock, $35 in a junkyard '90 Escort trigger wheel and machine work to modify a pulley and trigger wheel, then apparently $20 in a sensor. There are misc. cost of the bolt, rivets and spring pins to hole the trigger wheel. So it's still a ~$61 mod after the EFI conversion.

    From a thread currently going on another forum about coil on plugging about any V8.

    You could run an EDIS ignition module which will control timing, fixed advance, without even needing a Megasquirt or other control unit. Add the $147 megasquirt-I to run any sort of timing advance or retard based on load and RPM (EDIS module supplies the RPM signal, and the megasquirt has a built-in MAP sensor so you can get load referenced timing control, very nice!). This setup is nice for cheap, but you're stuck with the 7500rpm limiter fixed in the EDIS module...

    My choice would be go with an MS1, nice and cheap (especialyl if you assemble it yourself) - configure it for 4 spark outputs, and drive a set of LS coilpacks in wasted spark mode (or any other with a built-in ignitor). An unassembled, v2.0pcb, Megasquirt I kit is a whopping $147. Let's say you paid $100 bucks for the LS coils. trigger wheel and pickup sensor, max $30. We're still well under $300 for a coil near plug setup that'll make some serious power.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Quote Originally Posted by pmuller9 View Post
    Easy is good. I recommend using a 2.7K pull-up resistor since the actually voltage can be over 14 volts.

    It would be best if you used a shielded cable and ran the 3 sensor wires back to the MegaSqiurt box.
    This way the sensor can ground at the same point as the MS box along with the cable shield

    Use a 3 pin weatherpack connector at the sensor to connect it to the shielded cable.

    Paul
    Thank you Paul! I tried running it with out a pull up circuit (I'm no electronic wiz), and didn't get a tach signal, so I bumped it up to a 12v feed and tightened the clearance up on the sensor to about 1mm, and still nothing. So I headed down to radio shack and picked up a pack of 3k resistors (they didn't have 2.7k), wired it into the harness in the engine bay and bingo, I had a tach signal! Flipped the fuel pump kill switch back on and the car fired right up! whoo hoo. The timing is a bit off, so I need to go and calibrate the trigger angle, but so far so good. Thanks again for those links and recommendation
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  13. #63
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    554

    Default Anyone gone Distributorless?

    The recommended shielding is good, keep it short and away from
    ignition wires. A stock magnetic pickup generates a signal with no pullup
    resistor. That Cherry sensor definitely must have a pullup to have any
    output signal. Remember 12V wiring can be subject to spikes, I have
    seen up to 300V when cranking. Under a microsecond, too short to hurt
    a light or coil, but can blow a transistor. To protect your sensor, use
    a filtered supply from your engine computer to the sensor and pullup.
    5V might be fine, check what voltage the computer wants. Bruce Roe

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I have it running off a 12v feed supplied by the MegaSquirt now, grounded similarly. I have the wires running as far below the sparkplug wires as possible as it goes under the cap. Eventually I'd like to go to LS coils mounted on the valve covers, but that presents a breather and oil fill issue, so still sorting that out in my head.

    I have the trigger angle dialed in now and the tach signal is rock solid across the rpm spread.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilverBuick View Post
    I have it running off a 12v feed supplied by the MegaSquirt now, grounded similarly. I have the wires running as far below the sparkplug wires as possible as it goes under the cap. Eventually I'd like to go to LS coils mounted on the valve covers, but that presents a breather and oil fill issue, so still sorting that out in my head.

    I have the trigger angle dialed in now and the tach signal is rock solid across the rpm spread.
    Great job! Having the engine fire up and run after all your work is definitely a feel good situation.

    Paul

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Thanks, it really is. It's times like this though that really show I'm not an electrical wiz that some people think you need to be to go EFI. I had someone on another forum explain to me what a pullup circuit does, lol. You'd think I'd know that by now? =P
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    1,614

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilverBuick View Post
    Thanks, it really is. It's times like this though that really show I'm not an electrical wiz that some people think you need to be to go EFI. I had someone on another forum explain to me what a pullup circuit does, lol. You'd think I'd know that by now? =P
    That's one of the reasons we are here, to combine all of our skills and knowledge to help each other succeed. It's really incredible if you think about it.

    I'm still willing to make a sensor bracket out of solid stock with a slotted hole for sensor adjustment. Just pay for shipping

    Paul

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Framingham, Ma
    Posts
    2,784

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I know it has nothing to do with your particular build, but you'd know better than anyone.

    Is it possible on a Buick motor to mount the sensor ring behind the balancer? I was checking out a setup that mounted a ring inside the timing cover of a chevy motor and could be used on other applications, but it has to be mounted behind the balancer and preferably inside a spaced out timing cover. I was thinking of maybe adding a small cover to the front of the timing cover, behind the balancer, as a sensor ring housing. I'm not sure if the balancer can be moved outward at all though. I imagine it'll cause issues with belt alignment at the very least.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    As you mentioned, it would need the balancer moved outwards as the clearance behind the balancer is very small due to the oil pan.

    I don't know what keeps the oil slinger from rubbing the timing cover, but a disc with windows (as opposed to teeth) could probably be welded to the slinger (to provide 2-point contact with the crank snout for stability) and a hole drilled in the timing cover with an o-ringed sensor put in it to read the windows in the disc.

    Thanks Paul, but I think I'll run with this locked down set up. I pulled the second washer out of the end of the mount (first picture) and it centered up the sensor perfectly with the trigger wheel.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Car is still running good. Starts up quick. On to chasing other computer controlled mysteries.

    The auto-idle rpm targeting doesn't seem to like below freezing conditions, so that's the next thing to sort out. I could always go back to a straight coolant temperature controlled IAC movement.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids
    Posts
    151

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Josh at Yoshiefab http://yoshifab.com/store/index.php?...uctId=45 built a unit for me for a buick 455. Long term project but slowly putting together the pieces.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'67 GS 4-sp: Richmond Overdrive, '65 2.73 12 Bolt, 255/50R16rear w/Baer 12" discs, 245/50R16front w/Baer 13" discs, Mild 455 Stage 1 by Gary Foster

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I didn't see any pictures of the mount. pmueller offered to make a nice sensor holder for me (and I bet it'd look awesome).

    Currently, I now have around 2,000 miles on this set up and it's working like a charm. The auto-idle rpm targeting is working pretty decently too, didn't have to reset the idle at sea level or back at 6500ft. Having a slight hiccup with some setting when I lift on the throttle quickly (like while shifting or sitting in traffic) causing the idle to rise to ~2,000rpm and taking 3-5 seconds to settle, but it's a setting I just need to sort out, minor annoyance.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids
    Posts
    151

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I'll additionally mention that yoshiefab also has a 24-1 wheel for the optical pick-up inside the CAS. I plan to try this approach for full sequential inj. and distributorless spark.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'67 GS 4-sp: Richmond Overdrive, '65 2.73 12 Bolt, 255/50R16rear w/Baer 12" discs, 245/50R16front w/Baer 13" discs, Mild 455 Stage 1 by Gary Foster

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ely, NV
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    I don't plan to ever go sequential on this engine, but a Grand National cam sensor with a 455 gear on it drops right in and gives a good enough reading for sequential injection. I want one just to drive the oil pump, but am now considering cutting down a 3.8 distributor and just run the oil pump.
    The Silver Buick- '77 Skylark coupe w/455, SPX, MegaSquirt 2 & TKO-600 (Drag Week 2011!), '72 Centurion Conv't - 455w/TH400, '67 T-bird 4Dr (suicide) w/428, MegaSquirt 1 & C6. '69 Firebird replaced, now building a Pontiac Turbo L6!

    My Skylark thread
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
    My Pontiac OHC Six thread.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219250

    I'm just a regular guy that fuel injected an old Buick and Thunderbird.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    1,311

    Default Re: Anyone gone Distributorless?

    Cool thread. Keep up the good work, if your looking for a cam sensor try looking in the parts for sale on turbobuick.com I saw quite a few in the $40 range a few days ago.
    Tyler Northcutt

    72 Buick GSX clone daily driver on a 100 shot

    6.83 @ 101.30 mph 1/8th
    10.71 @ 126.13

    1986 Chevy shortwide

    2006 Pontiac GTO PBM M6
    340 RWHP

 

 
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