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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    East Northport Long Island N.Y
    Posts
    2,196

    Default Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Hey all, Looking for Guidance to build a 470 out of my 455. I dropped off my Engine at my engine builder the other day and after an inspection of parts found out I have wrecked another set of connecting rods. A few were egg shaped on the the Big end, Now I've looked around on the internet for a 455 H beam rod stock length they were way out of my price range, So i was thinking why not go with 6.80 BBC rods and another set of lighter pistons and still be cheaper in the long run. I do need to know if the pistons pins are in the stock location before i start buying parts I was thinking TA,Diamond,wiesco or JE as a good start for pistons.. Any other Input would be great..
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    84 regal 462 11.78@112 (pump gas) sold in 99
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally known as Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STG-2 TE Heads EZ-EFI Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    2001 Regal GS
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    long island n.y.
    Posts
    151

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by killrbuick66455 View Post
    Hey all, Looking for Guidance to build a 470 out of my 455. I dropped off my Engine at my engine builder the other day and after an inspection of parts found out I have wrecked another set of connecting rods. A few were egg shaped on the the Big end, Now I've looked around on the internet for a 455 H beam rod stock length they were way out of my price range, So i was thinking why not go with 6.80 BBC rods and another set of lighter pistons and still be cheaper in the long run. I do need to know if the pistons pins are in the stock location before i start buying parts I was thinking TA,Diamond,wiesco or JE as a good start for pistons.. Any other Input would be great..
    Who's building the motor??

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    long island ny
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    This is from Jim Weise

    As you mentioned, this spring I had a custom piston made up for me by Diamond racing. I have to thank Mike Phillips at AMP for getting me in contact with Diamond, as well as his input on the development of these new parts. It was something he had wanted to do for a while now, and luckily I had the projects in the hopper to order 5 sets of these, so they assigned a part number to them, and could sell them to me for the same price as a "shelf stock" piston. This allows me to retail them for the same price as other high quality Buick 455 pistons.

    The dilemma we have faced for many years is excessive decking to run a zero deck clearance, with the readily available pistons. It was not at all uncommon to have to cut .050 off the deck, to get that zero deck. And zero deck is very important, for engine efficiency and power, as well as detonation control.

    And when you do that, you have to cut the intake side of the heads to align the intake again.. it all adds up, as milling is not inexpensive. It ends up being lot of wasted motion, and although I will confess it might not be a big deal, but taking more material off an already weak block, simply can't be advantageous.

    The next thing to deal with is rods.. While stock rods are fine for up to about 500 HP in a street application, the advent and widespread use of Aluminum heads these days has made that once rather elusive mark, for a street engine, to be a rather easy goal. So we are now really working the stock rods, and after ARP bolts, re-size and an often tough balance job, you end up with around $300 in a set of stockers.. That's if you have a set of 8 that can be re-done and balanced.. That not being the case was so common, I typically bring in 10 stock rods to get 8 good ones, and that's after I have picked thru my cores to throw out the obviously poorly machined or cast ones.

    I would be remiss not to mention the TA Sportsman rod here.. That's really a great quality rod, no doubt, I have used many, many sets. It's certainly the easy rod for a "drop in" replacement, for you guys having machine work done at maybe a less than "savvy" machine shop. I will get to that later.

    But being a drop in replacement, it has to work with available Buick pistons, in both the pin diameter and compression distance, so we are now back to the massive decking issues.

    Recently, Wiseco came out with a new Buick piston. Several builders were going to Pontiac Rods from Cat, and modifying them for Buick use. Some were going to the H Beam BBC rod from Eagle Specialty products down in Miss.. That Eagle rod is a great value, plenty strong up to 700 HP, and it's a good quality piece.

    These builders were using a 6.635 long Cat Pont or Eagle BBC rod and turning the crank down to fit it, and/or narrowing the rods. Also on both rods, the pin end had to be opened up for the 1" Buick pin, that the Wiseco pistons have.

    The drawback here is twofold.. Extra machine work on the rods to fit the Buick crank for the pont stuff, or on the crank for the BBC stuff. As well as the pin end machining on both rods. More of a problem is that you really do have to surface the block at least .020 to clean it up completely. Most of the Wiseco/Cat/Eagle combos require a 10.560 deck height, which only gives you maybe .010 to clean up the decks. I have seen a few cases where that's not enough.

    Beyond that, that Wiseco piston is not a quite piece during cold engine operation. Trust me, if you put them in at the recommended .005 clearance, you will swear the thing has a rod knock when it's cold. Especially on the milder cam/iron exhaust manifold stuff. Been there, done that. One we did this last fall was so bad, I wouldn't let it leave the shop, and ended up replacing the shortblock, as it turned out, with the TA/SRP pistoned shortblock that we originally built for you John..

    I thought a better option was to have a new piston created.

    We use the Eagle rod, but having the ability to do it now with the custom piston, we went with a 6.800 length. The longer rod is easier on the cylinder walls, which is a big plus when your working with the rather thin wall thicknesses that most of our Buick blocks have.

    In addition to that, we had the piston designed for a 10.550 deck height, a .050 offset grind on the crank, and offset the pins for quiet cold operation, even with the superior 2618 material. And we specified them to be built with the .990 pin dia, so that eliminates any work required to the rods, beyond the normal pin fit.

    The key to the combo is having access to a good crank man, and I am blessed with having one of the best in the business at my disposal. The rod pins are offset ground .050 to fit the stock size BBC big end, and use the infinitely available BBC rod bearing. Want .001 under bearings.. no problem.. hard bearings, soft bearings, dowel end bearings.. you name it. Easy and cheap.. I chuckled at my cost for a set of ACL BBC rod bearings.. it was about $25 less than the Buick bearings..

    But back to the crank.. To fit the rods, beyond the offset grind down the the 2.200 inch size, the rod pin on the crank has to be widened to 1.995 to accommodate the wider BBC rod bearing, and allow for a nice .015 side clearance, and you can just get there with the stock Buick crank. But the key here in widening is having a good crank man that dresses his grinding wheel properly, to not burn the crap out of the cheeks, and produce a nice finish. Not every grinder is capable of this, or maybe more correctly stated that they will not take the time and effort to do it right.

    The advantages of this combo are:

    More cubes from the longer stroke
    Better rod ratio with the longer rods
    Easier on the cylinder walls
    Lighter pistons and pins
    Offset pins for quiet cold operation, even with the better 2618 piston alloy.
    Drop in fit for a $450 set of 700+HP H-beam rods
    No excessive decking or intake fit problems, but enough room for complete deck cleanup.
    Wider rod bearings to better handle the loads
    A huge choice of rod bearing types. Along with easy availabity and lower cost.
    And of course they have the performance oriented 1/16 compression rings.

    All this adds up to a stronger engine, for a very attractive price.

    I use a P bearing with a smaller rod journal radius on motors up to 650HP, as they work fine, and don't require surface hardening of the crankshaft. This keeps the costs down.

    On motors beyond 650 HP, we go to the H series bearings, which allow a bigger radius on the rod journals, and then we nitride the crank to harden it for the H type bearing.



    This is all done in preparation for the future. We are going to need a strong rod with wider bearings to handle the loads. Our BBB street/race motor future lies directly with that TA Tomahawk block. Power output on these street motors will be impressive, and I already have a development block on order, to build multiple combinations for killer street strip motors..

    I truly believe that 650-700+ Street friendly Naturally aspirated HP is on our near future.. and with forced induction.. well then your pocketbook is the limit, not the parts..

    Stay tuned..



    1971 SKYLARK
    Built to scare children and old ladies

    Chuck Hensel

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    MI.
    Posts
    1,178

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Jim Weise of Tri-Shield Performance can sell you everything you need,and tell you what your machine shop needs to do,he can machine and build it for you also if you want.You can get a 470 stroker balanced rotating assembly,ready to install from him. (he is the sponser of this website,and a link to Tri-Shield Performance is in the vendors section) GL
    64 Skylark,401 Nailhead,ST400,3.23:1Posi
    64 Skylark,305Vortec sbc,700R4,12blt Posi 3.73,low 14s. A sbb 300 stroker planned for it.
    72 Skylark Convert. in progress, Not yet assembled 455 .020 over,70 heads with stage1 valves,gasket matched and bowl blended,transmission to be determined.
    65 Chevy Impala,4,400lbs,383sbc,700R4,3.07posi,1.80 60' foot time low 13s @101mph,15mpg city,24mpg highway

    Edit Signature


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    893

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Option 1

    Jim Weise 470 rotating assembly or amp just google performance automotive machine in Kentucky.
    both of these rotating assemblies use a custom piston with a different pin height.
    I believe AMP sells the rotating assembly for around $3000

    Option 2

    Pontiac 6.625" H-Beam rods with stock piston pin location.
    Brian Novak

    70 Skylark Custom Seamist Green with Dark Green bucket seat interior. (GS clone in progress).
    The goal is a mid 11 second street car.

    Finally have the short block.
    All oil mods done, Zero deck, 4.35" bore wiseco reverse dome pistons, Stock rods, Scotty Brown Solid cam.
    Heads and Intake are being Ported now.
    Getting closer.

    Owned from 1984-1998
    72 GS 350
    Ran mid 13's

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    154

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    If your looking for a great condition, used set of eagle 6.800 rods I have a set for $300.00 PM me if interested

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    East Northport Long Island N.Y
    Posts
    2,196

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by dentboy View Post
    Who's building the motor??

    Hey dentboy,I've known my engine builder 25 plus years and knows buick's He's built my engine before and would not trust anyone else..

    ---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gsx678 View Post
    Option 1

    Jim Weise 470 rotating assembly or amp just google performance automotive machine in Kentucky.
    both of these rotating assemblies use a custom piston with a different pin height.
    I believe AMP sells the rotating assembly for around $3000

    Option 2

    Pontiac 6.625" H-Beam rods with stock piston pin location.

    Hey gsx678, I do have a set of those rods but may be to heavy and have to add more weight to the crank to properly balance the rotating assy and also it would slow down the engine..They are the last resort option..Yeah i know I'm sounding picky

    ---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Righter View Post
    If your looking for a great condition, used set of eagle 6.800 rods I have a set for $300.00 PM me if interested

    I may just take you up on that offer PM sent
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    84 regal 462 11.78@112 (pump gas) sold in 99
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally known as Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STG-2 TE Heads EZ-EFI Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    2001 Regal GS
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    darien Illinois
    Posts
    422

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    X2
    Option 1

    Jim Weise 470 rotating assembly or amp just google performance automotive machine in Kentucky.
    both of these rotating assemblies use a custom piston with a different pin height.
    I believe AMP sells the rotating assembly for around $3000



    You have your builder-
    purchase the rotating assembly from the guys who have the part numbers memorized, and know this stuff in their sleep.
    Have you builder do the final blueprinting and assembly.

    Allen

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    East Northport Long Island N.Y
    Posts
    2,196

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Hi ap1672, That definitely is a good Option...Thanks for the Imput

    ---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Righter View Post
    If your looking for a great condition, used set of eagle 6.800 rods I have a set for $300.00 PM me if interested

    What pistons were used with them ?
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    84 regal 462 11.78@112 (pump gas) sold in 99
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally known as Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STG-2 TE Heads EZ-EFI Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    2001 Regal GS
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    long island n.y.
    Posts
    151

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Maybe you didn't notice but I'm from long island also and was asking because wanted to see if I knew them, that's all. Engines are engines as long as your thorough and know what your clearances should be everything will turn out great. Good luck

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    East Northport Long Island N.Y
    Posts
    2,196

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Hey dentboy,Your right!! I didn't notice where your from do you go to the local car cruises Maybe we'll meet up some where I'm sure you know poppa Bruno.

    ---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

    Thank you!! RACK-ATTACK!! ,After reading your post I now understand what i need to do,I would like to check your car sometime at the next car Event...

    ---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

    Thank you all who posted and guided me to the right direction..
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    84 regal 462 11.78@112 (pump gas) sold in 99
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally known as Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STG-2 TE Heads EZ-EFI Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    2001 Regal GS
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    long island ny
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Don't thank me thank JW - he da man!

    now that I am on the road I would also like to meet up with the local buick guys. I am going to try to make the Yapank show tomorrow night. Droping car off at Tommy Baldwins shop in the AM for an inspection and alignment - If I get it back in time and there are no thunder storms I will go. Will also try to make the bald hill show next week. Car is not 100% done but its done enought to


    1971 SKYLARK
    Built to scare children and old ladies

    Chuck Hensel

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    East Northport Long Island N.Y
    Posts
    2,196

    Default Re: Looking For 470 build Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by rack-attack View Post
    Don't thank me thank JW - he da man!

    now that I am on the road I would also like to meet up with the local buick guys. I am going to try to make the Yapank show tomorrow night. Droping car off at Tommy Baldwins shop in the AM for an inspection and alignment - If I get it back in time and there are no thunder storms I will go. Will also try to make the bald hill show next week. Car is not 100% done but its done enought to

    That sounds like a plan!

    ---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

    Car is not 100% done but its done enought to


    Are they Ever 100% done lol
    Eric
    NYCTA
    Past Buick's
    84 regal 462 11.78@112 (pump gas) sold in 99
    66 SKYLARK
    70 SKYLARK 462
    71 SKYLARK 350
    72 SKYLARK 350 CUSTOM
    72 RIVIERA
    -------------------------
    70 Skylark 350 Formally known as Jessica Rabbit (Jessie)
    Someday a 464 BBB STG-2 TE Heads EZ-EFI Borg Warner T-10 Trans 3.73 gear...
    2001 Regal GS
    BPG Member 1232
    North Eastern Chapter Member 235

 

 

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