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Thread: 464 to 470???

  1. #1
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    Default 464 to 470???

    necessary Parts?
    I share this feeling about our VETS so I borrowed it
    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in THIS country who no longer understand it.'

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaDrifter View Post
    necessary Parts?
    Custom rods,maybe pistons depending if you can get rods to accommodate the pin placement. Also machine work for the new rods, balancing the rotating assembly, new rod bearings.
    But I ask, if going to 470 why not 482, same parts same machine work. I build 482 when I have some one ask for a stroker.
    Gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
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    To grow old is mandatory,
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    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Pistons and Rods

    Existing crankshaft can be offset ground.

    My new rods allow the use of the original oil pan, if using BBC spec rods, you will have to widen rod throws and most aftermarket rods require an oil pan with a clearance dip in it up front. Use the TA 1511 series at least.

    JW
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by greatscat View Post
    Custom rods,maybe pistons depending if you can get rods to accommodate the pin placement. Also machine work for the new rods, balancing the rotating assembly, new rod bearings.
    But I ask, if going to 470 why not 482, same parts same machine work. I build 482 when I have some one ask for a stroker.
    Gary
    And your 482 Rods are still in the works Gary.. should have them this spring.

    JW
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    And your 482 Rods are still in the works Gary.. should have them this spring.

    JW
    I was expecting them to be delivered as a Christmas present from you Jim.

    Merry Christmas my friend.
    Gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Don't forget plug and play rods are available now also that require no special machining of the crank. For the 464
    70 stage 1 Back under construction
    540 Tomahawk, F1c-94 Procharger
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    Shooting for 1khp at the tire and 5.50s

    .

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by greatscat View Post
    I was expecting them to be delivered as a Christmas present from you Jim.

    Merry Christmas my friend.
    Gary
    Maybe Valentines day....




    JW
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    ^^

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    Maybe Valentines day....




    JW
    You make me blush you silver tongued devil.
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Gary or Jim,
    The TSP website shows what it takes to produce a 470 in detail.

    What does it take to produce a 480 displacement? Greater offset grind on the rod journals and rods with smaller big ends?
    Best Regards,
    Dan Gerber
    Anaheim, CA
    '72 Skylark Custom 350 Convertible

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Yes, the 482 is a 4.050 stroke. It takes the rod pin down to 2.100 or SBC large journal size. I do beleive every SBC ci combo that came after about 1967 had that journal size, so rod bearings are plentiful and cheap.

    The 494 goes farther, to a 2" rod pin, and a 4.150 stroke. That's the small journal SBC size (265,283 and some early 327 engines)

    Reducing journal diameter and offset grinding does two beneficial things.. it adds CI to the engine, and reduces bearings speed. There are plenty of opinions out there as to if this really makes much difference, my recent foray into the 470 was more about building a technically correct shortblock, for less money, than using available Buick parts. The landscape has changed since then, as vendors react to the success of the 470 as they should, and overall we have a lot better options available now, than we had when I started building Buick motors in the eighties.

    JW
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerber View Post
    Gary or Jim,
    The TSP website shows what it takes to produce a 470 in detail.

    What does it take to produce a 480 displacement? Greater offset grind on the rod journals and rods with smaller big ends?
    Jims narrative on whats necessary is correct, and if he puts together a 482 kit it would be easy and less expensive than it is now. I've done 470,482 and 494's, in my experience the 482 seems to be the best, little if any difference to the 494 and the crank is weakened more due to the more offset grind. The machine shop has to know what its doing though, the important aspect of offset grind is to get the new filet correct, seen several that were butcher jobs causing failure. Then the Buick crank was blamed, wrong, the machine shop should be blamed.
    Jim knows how to do these grinds,as does mine, and I don't think hes had any issues.Maybe he can do a 482 kit that includes the crank.
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Thank you, gentlemen.

    I have a couple questions related to the subject as it applies to my engine, but I'll ask them in another thread rather than continuing to hijack this one.
    Best Regards,
    Dan Gerber
    Anaheim, CA
    '72 Skylark Custom 350 Convertible

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 464 to 470

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    And your 482 Rods are still in the works Gary.. should have them this spring.

    JW
    Care to share any specs or details on this 482 rod?
    Scott

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Exactly the same as my new 470 Rod. Just a 2.100 BE.

    .990 pin
    6.800 C-C
    Buick bank offset
    Buick BE width
    ARP 2000 bolts standard

    My 470 rod weights in at 755 G. Compare that to 805G for a BBC eagle rod I was using.

    These 482 rods might be just a touch heavier.

    Have not seen a final price, but I expect them to be in the $600 range.

    JW
    Owner/operator

    Tri-Shield Performance
    Jim Weise
    Founder/Owner
    V-8 Buick.com
    320-629-8999

    Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
    Abraham Lincoln
    16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    Pistons and Rods

    Existing crankshaft can be offset ground.

    ....., if using BBC spec rods, you will have to widen rod throws and most aftermarket rods require an oil pan with a clearance dip in it up front. Use the TA 1511 series at least.

    JW
    So an offset ground crank with BBC rods will hit the stock oil pan in the front. I didn't know that, good to know.

    Thanks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike

    1967 GS400
    1973 Gran Sport Stage 1 (parts car, unfortunately)
    1997 883/1200 Sportster Hugger

    GSCA #949
    Michigan Buick Performance Club
    BPG #1402

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Weise View Post
    Exactly the same as my new 470 Rod. Just a 2.100 BE.

    .990 pin
    6.800 C-C
    Buick bank offset
    Buick BE width
    ARP 2000 bolts standard

    My 470 rod weights in at 755 G. Compare that to 805G for a BBC eagle rod I was using.

    These 482 rods might be just a touch heavier.

    Have not seen a final price, but I expect them to be in the $600 range.

    JW
    Ok I thought I had chosen my direction for my new build but this changes it all! When do you think these rods will be available to purchase? How much would a 482 stroker kit be?
    Mark Busher Jr.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by mbusher83 View Post
    Ok I thought I had chosen my direction for my new build but this changes it all! When do you think these rods will be available to purchase? How much would a 482 stroker kit be?
    See my post called "another 482". Would be a little less if we were doing 2 or more at the same time.
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  19. #19
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    321

    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by greatscat View Post
    See my post called "another 482". Would be a little less if we were doing 2 or more at the same time.
    gary
    Ok thanks Gary, so we'd be looking at about $800 for the pistons, $400-500 for the offset grind and hopefully around $600 for the molnar rods per Jim?
    Mark Busher Jr.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by mbusher83 View Post
    Ok thanks Gary, so we'd be looking at about $800 for the pistons, $400-500 for the offset grind and hopefully around $600 for the molnar rods per Jim?
    I can't speak for the cost of rods Jim is working on, but the pistons,rings, and pins we used were $1100.
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

  21. #21
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    Long Island, New York
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    237

    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Another great topic to learn for the future with. Thank you.
    1970 GS 350 . Family car since 1988, was moms.
    Now JA Racing Engines stocky ocky style 1973 rebuilt 455
    Drive to E Town, stock suspension, air down tires,
    1.70 60 ft. 12.40 108mph. Drive home.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: 464 to 470???

    Quote Originally Posted by mbusher83 View Post
    Ok thanks Gary, so we'd be looking at about $800 for the pistons, $400-500 for the offset grind and hopefully around $600 for the molnar rods per Jim?

    Mark
    Recent discussions with Jim indicate that these #'s look about right for parts he's working with the supplier on for multiple orders .
    gary
    gary
    Iron Stage 2
    GSCA #51
    BPG #1135
    To grow old is mandatory,
    To grow up is optional.
    "CARPE DIEM"

    69 GS400 4 speed documented Stage2,original owner,18k miles
    68 GS400 Stage2 race car "Great Scat" 9.94
    69 GS400 4 speed convertible
    70 Q-Q GSX ( actually Sandy's) pure stock trim,12.78 best et
    70 Race car, "Thumper"resurrected. 9.80
    71 GS 455 10 second street car, triple black
    71 GS 455 11 second grocery getter

 

 

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