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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEE
    I'm not sure I get it 100%.
    Kimson, I just got tired of taking the distributor in and out and welding and filing. You won't need to do any of that. Just make the screw head into a cam shape on the grinder or with a file so you can adjust the limit. I used two screws because I didn't want to get anything out of balance but if Nick says his works with one then I guess the second one is optional! Don't forget the clearance the rotor for the screw(s).
    Andy, 1970 Skylark Custom

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  2. #52
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    I put the screws in there.. Depending on how much I file the heads, I can get different values. Right now it's about half. I've since tried to go down Larry's list, and I'm alreay stuck. This is what has happened, and what is not happening..??

    1. I set the sliding plate as seen in the above posts to half of the pin travel in comparison to stock. This done with the screws I put in.

    2. I installed the new crane vacuum canister, fully screwed it in as said in cran manual. There's a little blac plate left over, I'm not sure what to do with this?

    3. I installed the yellow springs as recommended by Larry, so I wouldn't have to rev the engine so high to see where my total advance was located.

    4. I filed the rotor cap so it wouldn't interfear with the screws I just put in to block the pin sliding.

    5. I plugged the vaccum line from the carb for setting the timing.

    6. I checked the timing when the engine was just idling, it read 12???, so I set that down to 4.

    7. I chalked a mark 1 3/4 clockwise from original mark on pulley, for setting total.

    8. Now the progress stops.. I had my gf slowly increase the engine speed so I could see at what rpm the new timing mark would stop moving. The thing was that it never moved??? We went up to 2000 rpm, and nothing happened, we we're always at 4 with the original one..?

    So now it's time for chicken, and I need to get this thing set up for Saturday, when we're due back at the track. Since none of you want to see a buick do no good at the track, I need your help here... ???
    Kimson
    1966 Wildcat


    - 1972 Centurion (R.I.P.)
    - 1973 Riviera (sold)



  3. #53
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    Take the distributor cap off and try to twist the rotor by hand. It should easily rotate about 15 degrees clockwise against the slight tension of the yellow springs. If it will not move, you probably have binding between the bottom of your rotor and the new advance limit screw.

  4. #54
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    I tried that before I put the cap on it. It moves fine, with a bit of spring tension in it. I filed the rotor enough to make sure it had clearence too..

    ?
    Kimson
    1966 Wildcat


    - 1972 Centurion (R.I.P.)
    - 1973 Riviera (sold)



  5. #55
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    Try switching springs and trying again. The light springs may already be at full advance.
    I always run it with my stiffest springs first after any curve work, and do that to ball park the initial setting. Then I try it with my lightest springs (or sometimes even no springs) to set the total. Then, finally, I play with springs to get the total coming in at the rpm of choice.

  6. #56
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    Good idea, when the lightest (yellow) are on it, it has very little resistance, and the rotor doesn't go back all the way when you check it for tension. I thought I'd give it a try behind the house, and it happily squeeled a tire as soon as you touched the pedal, I guess that's good. I'll have to wait for my gf to come back home so she can do the pedaling, while I check for changes...

    Many thanks
    Kimson
    1966 Wildcat


    - 1972 Centurion (R.I.P.)
    - 1973 Riviera (sold)



  7. #57
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    Well, if the vacuum line is connected it's at 4, id it's plugged it's 6 at idle. I changed the springs to the stiffest, and we reved it to 2000. It didn't move at all, it was stuck at 6 the whole time. Is there anything else I can try here? I've listed everything I've done, and I need to get this thing sorted tonight so it's ready for the track tomorow.

    Any help is much appreciated.
    Kimson
    1966 Wildcat


    - 1972 Centurion (R.I.P.)
    - 1973 Riviera (sold)



  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEE
    Well, if the vacuum line is connected it's at 4, id it's plugged it's 6 at idle. I changed the springs to the stiffest, and we reved it to 2000. It didn't move at all, it was stuck at 6 the whole time. Is there anything else I can try here? I've listed everything I've done, and I need to get this thing sorted tonight so it's ready for the track tomorow.

    Any help is much appreciated.
    Kimson,
    I've been in Florida all week visiting the folks, or I would have seen this. The advance mechanism is binding somewhere. It isn't allowing the mechanical advance to operate. Either the screws you used are too big, or they are somehow binding up the rotor. The rotor should move in relation to the advance plate. It isn't. Try removing the rotor, then pull the weights out to full travel. There should be some movement(limited by your installed screws). The yellow springs will allow most of your advance in at idle. You should still see some additional advance(30* mark moving up), as you rev the motor to 2000 RPM.

    The vacuum advance must be limited to 8-10* Use the black metal cam to limit the amount the pull pin can travel.(.086" = 8*, .104 = 10*) This involves drilling and tapping an additional hole. (like in the picture). This is different than the way Crane recommends, it's a much better way. All the allen key does is control the spring pressure opposing the vacuum advance, it DOESN'T LIMIT THE ADVANCE. The spring tension affects the rate of vacuum advance.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  9. #59
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    I kind of had it figured out last night, I had it set up and it was up and running. It didn't run perfect so this morning at 6:30 I put it back in stock condition and headed for the track. As I get more comfortable with understanding more how it works and just fiddling with it, I'm sure all pieces will fall into place. At least I managed to get my time down from 18:43@74.20 to 17:21@78.42, so that felt good. If I then can get the HEI dialed in, I'm sure we can shave off some more. I hate whe you get a really good start and you're ahead for the first hundred yards, cause the other peson has been sleeping at the light, and then they just motor past you...

    Many thanks for the help, I'll be back in on this thread in a day or two.
    Kimson
    1966 Wildcat


    - 1972 Centurion (R.I.P.)
    - 1973 Riviera (sold)



  10. #60
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    I read this thread and just wanted to make sure before i get to carried away that the total timing of 30 t0 36 is also good for a 364. thanks.

  11. #61
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    never mind i found an old chat i had with you larry thanks anyway

  12. #62
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    I see a lot about how to better modify the Crane vacuum canister but how about the Mr. Gasket vacuum canister? Does the adjustment give you a wide enough range of controllability to avoid knock at light and medium throttle?


    Craig Ray

    `72 Skylark 455
    Ice cream getter / track toy.
    11.6 @ 117 mph with 1.71 60'
    10.8 @ 124 mph w/100 shot (on delay), traction limited of course...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/cray1801.../0/t8GLCth-fkM

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cray1801
    I see a lot about how to better modify the Crane vacuum canister but how about the Mr. Gasket vacuum canister? Does the adjustment give you a wide enough range of controllability to avoid knock at light and medium throttle?
    Not sure about the Mr. Gasket cannister. The Crane unit alows ajustment for amount of advance as well as the rate. I'd limit it to no more than 8*
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  14. #64
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    I noticed with the vacuum pump that the Mr. Gasket canister (when adjusted ccw for minimum advance) requires more vacuum to start advancing. It takes around 8psi to initiate movement of the pin and does not move to its maximum range until you have ~18psi vacuum. Since I only have ~12psi it will never make this full sweep. I'm thinking I may still need a positive stop modification.

    I'll check it out at least by this weekend and give an update. Thanks Larry.


    Craig Ray

    `72 Skylark 455
    Ice cream getter / track toy.
    11.6 @ 117 mph with 1.71 60'
    10.8 @ 124 mph w/100 shot (on delay), traction limited of course...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/cray1801.../0/t8GLCth-fkM

  15. #65
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    This thread has really been a good reference for me, thanks Larry!

    Thought I'd share what I did.

    I use the Mr. Gasket adjustable vacuum advance kit (#6011), and made my own adjustable stop to limit vacuum advance. For my street/strip set-up I run 34* total mechanical advance, and limit the vacuum advance to 9*. The advance at idle with the vacuum canister connected is 43*. I also have the canister adjusted 6 turns counter-clockwise. Have not heard any engine knock yet. My mechanical advance starts at 1300 and is all in by 1900.

    The dimensions given below in the picture is the distance between the rod and the end of the stop (right side).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cray1801; 09-03-2005 at 01:33 PM.


    Craig Ray

    `72 Skylark 455
    Ice cream getter / track toy.
    11.6 @ 117 mph with 1.71 60'
    10.8 @ 124 mph w/100 shot (on delay), traction limited of course...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/cray1801.../0/t8GLCth-fkM

  16. #66
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    I also took some readings with my vacuum gauge connected directly to the vacuum canister (before I installed it in the distributor). With the adjustable stop installed and adjusted to the "Gap 1" position here are the vacuum readings at various canister adjustments (hex key turns). The first reading is with the hex wrench turned all the way clock-wise, the last reading is the hex wrench turned to the maximum counter-clock-wise position (7 3/4 turns).

    Vaccum (psig.) @ Initial rod movement / Vaccum (psig.) w/Rod @ stop position.
    max. cw = 3.2 / 5.2 psi (more knock potential @ part throttle)
    1 turn ccw = 3.7 / 5.6
    2 turns ccw = 4.1 /6
    3 turns ccw = 4.7 / 6.3
    4 turns ccw = 5 / 6.8
    5 turns ccw = 5.5 / 7.1
    6 turns ccw = 5.9 / 8
    7 turns ccw = 6.2 / 8.2
    7 3/4 turns ccw = 6.8 / 9.5 (less knock potential @ part throttle)

    Here's the installed canister, notice the position of the mounting screws, for the positive stop I made, they are far enough away from the rod to allow hex wrench access without removing the rotor.

    Of course I had to use the mill to create the slot in the adjustable stop. As mentioned before make sure any mounting screws do not protrude on the bottom and limit rod movement. This was my first mistake
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cray1801; 09-03-2005 at 01:26 PM.


    Craig Ray

    `72 Skylark 455
    Ice cream getter / track toy.
    11.6 @ 117 mph with 1.71 60'
    10.8 @ 124 mph w/100 shot (on delay), traction limited of course...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/cray1801.../0/t8GLCth-fkM

  17. #67
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    Sep 2004
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    bellmore new york
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    Default marco

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco
    Very cool Larry

    Maybe one day, I'll get you to do the springs in my distributor
    THEN U CAN DO MINE MARCO

  18. #68
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    Default Excellent thread!

    I was going to post "What advance should I use" but hit search first. Bingo!

    Followed the basic instructions of having 31 degrees advance when the mechanical advance is maxed. First I cut a piece of tape to 1 3/4" length and put it to the right of the TDC slot on the flywheel. Then scribed a line with a sharp drill bit. Fired it up and set the advance to "1" degree at the scribed line. That's with the vacuum advance disconnected so a total of 31 degrees without the vaccum advance.

    I've got an HEI unit off some sort of '74 Buick (I think a Riv.) and the idle timing w/o vacuum advance was roughly 14 BTDC which is about aligned with the end of the timing tab.

    It needed a bit less throttle opening at idle with that much advance. Previously it was set for 10 BTDC at idle. Idles smooth in and out of gear.

    Took it for a quick drive and it really ran well. Might get back for more playing with it but a good result. I want to get a weight kit now.

    Thanks Larry and all!
    73 Riviera - Black hardtop

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlenL
    I was going to post "What advance should I use" but hit search first. Bingo!

    Followed the basic instructions of having 31 degrees advance when the mechanical advance is maxed. First I cut a piece of tape to 1 3/4" length and put it to the right of the TDC slot on the flywheel. Then scribed a line with a sharp drill bit. Fired it up and set the advance to "1" degree at the scribed line. That's with the vacuum advance disconnected so a total of 31 degrees without the vaccum advance.

    I've got an HEI unit off some sort of '74 Buick (I think a Riv.) and the idle timing w/o vacuum advance was roughly 14 BTDC which is about aligned with the end of the timing tab.

    It needed a bit less throttle opening at idle with that much advance. Previously it was set for 10 BTDC at idle. Idles smooth in and out of gear.

    Took it for a quick drive and it really ran well. Might get back for more playing with it but a good result. I want to get a weight kit now.

    Thanks Larry and all!
    Glad it worked for you Glen,
    Just make sure the mechanical advance was truly maxed out when you set the total to 31*. The stock springs will not let the mechanical max out until upwards of 4000 RPM typically.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  20. #70
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    Jun 2003
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    Minneapolis, Minnesota
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    Larry,

    Should have said that the timing was done when holding the RPMs up. Some throttle blips showed the mechanical advance was maxed.

    Thanks again!
    73 Riviera - Black hardtop

  21. #71
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    May 2005
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    North Carolina
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    Default Factory total timing for HEI

    I'm going over my distributor now and on the Crane adj.vacuum advance kit's instructions it reads that "The GM HEI distributor has a centrifugal advance of 20 crank degrees with stock weights.Using advance weights other than stock may change the centrifugal advance curve and total advance.".Is this information accurate?Are all HEIs about the same and can total advance be affected by the weights? The way I see it is unless the weights are binding with the center plate somehow they will only affect the rate at which the advance comes in not the amount.
    Hector
    '79 Electra Limited 350-4
    '95 Roadmaster Sedan 350-LT 1
    BCA 42718
    W.O.T. without a Cat

  22. #72
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hectic
    I'm going over my distributor now and on the Crane adj.vacuum advance kit's instructions it reads that "The GM HEI distributor has a centrifugal advance of 20 crank degrees with stock weights.Using advance weights other than stock may change the centrifugal advance curve and total advance.".Is this information accurate?Are all HEIs about the same and can total advance be affected by the weights? The way I see it is unless the weights are binding with the center plate somehow they will only affect the rate at which the advance comes in not the amount.
    No, that is not accurate at all. Most HEI's have quite a bit more than 20*. They are all different. No, changing the weights will do little if anything to the total. Heavier weights will swing out quicker with the same spring tension. To change the total, the distributor must come apart (To do it right anyway)
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

  23. #73
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    May 2005
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    Thanks,Larry,that's what I tought.On your original post you mention on Dave's stop that .086"=8* and .104"=10*, is this the norm for the Crane canister?I'm planning on making a gauge to those dimenssions to set the stop in my unit.Also on my canister there is a second thickness of sheetmetal so thread engagement will be plenty.I will elongate the holes on mine so it can be adjusted,if need be.Great thread.
    Hector
    '79 Electra Limited 350-4
    '95 Roadmaster Sedan 350-LT 1
    BCA 42718
    W.O.T. without a Cat

  24. #74
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    Sep 2002
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    atlanta
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    Default one thing that hasn't been covered

    The heaviest (blue) springs that came with my crane kit have the mechanical advance coming in at 800 rpms. If I go with the silver or yellow they have the advance coming in at 500 rpms.

    Larry, how are you keeping the advance out until 1300 rpms?

    Also just a curious question. If you put a bushing on the pin to limit the total advance won't it also limit the travel of the pin at the other end thereby keeping the advance from going all the way out at idle?
    Mike C.
    '66 Skylark Conv. w/455
    1/4 mile - 12.49@107.40 w/1.77 60'
    1/8 mile - 7.97 @ 89.3 w/1.76 60'
    '66 Sportwagon, You mean I still have this thing?

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by msc66
    The heaviest (blue) springs that came with my crane kit have the mechanical advance coming in at 800 rpms. If I go with the silver or yellow they have the advance coming in at 500 rpms.

    Larry, how are you keeping the advance out until 1300 rpms?
    Those RPM numbers will vary with the different weights out there. Have you actually observed this with your engine? Sometimes, you can bend the hooked ends of the springs to modify things somewhat. I use the 2 silver springs. My engine will idle at 750 in gear in low stall. There is a small amount of advance, but it is not a problem in my application.

    Quote Originally Posted by msc66
    Also just a curious question. If you put a bushing on the pin to limit the total advance won't it also limit the travel of the pin at the other end thereby keeping the advance from going all the way out at idle?
    There is some space at the end, even with the weights pulled all the way in. The pin doesn't touch that end of the slot, so no, putting a bushing on does not change how far the weights pull in, but even if it did, it would accomplish what you were looking to do anyway, which is shorten the mechanical advance.
    Larry
    1998 "Fully Optioned" SC3800 Riviera
    70 GS 455 Stage1, TSP 470, 602 HP@ 5900, 589 TQ @ 4900
    TA Hyd Roller Cam, 230*/238*, 112, .544"/.577" lift, 4-7 swap
    MSD Digital 6+, Ignitionman Distributor w/MSD trigger
    THM400 with Ultimate 258mm converter, Gear Vendors OD
    AED 1000 HO Carb, 800 CFM 7042240 Quadrajet
    8.5 10 bolt, 3.73's Race weight 4025lbs.
    Best E.T. 11.54 Best MPH, 116.06
    Larrymta@verizon.net, GSCA #291
    BPG # 1063
    N.E. GS/GN Club Assistant Director

 

 
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