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  1. #26
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    My interpretation of this diagram is that a person could put the entire chassis together and spray the whole thing the same semi-gloss (or some variation of it) black and be 100% correct for the restoration. I think we are all after the same thing here, to end up with as many show points as possible for originality and still end up with a beautiful car in spite of it Our restorations are a long, painstaking process in which we take a great deal of pride, much unlike the factory assembly line workers who for the most part couldn't have cared less what they looked like. I do not have any intention of duplicating any shoddy factory workmanship. What I am mainly interested in is what I would lose points for if it was the wrong color so I can avoid those mistakes. Basically what I can do to build that 400 point car and not have it turn out like it just rolled off the showroom floor. Please understand that I certainly don't intend to offend anyone with a low mile original untouched car, but I know of plenty of them and let's face it, they aren't all the pretty.

    Bill

  2. #27
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    To John Ayers, did you check the 70 olds assembly manual? The driveshaft page of the 71 Olds manual shows the stripe colors but I know the w-31 was not avail in 71. I would bet that the driveshaft was the same for all 350 olds transm. specific, and some of these stripe codes are shared between Buick and olds. I know my 71 Stage-1 had 1 green and 1 yellow stripe and I think Olds big blocks might be the same. Check out the manual as it even gives measurements for the stripes.
    Dave, Seeing Yellow
    71 GS Stage-1 Now Sold.

    Now have real 70 GSX 4 Speed QQ

  3. #28
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    Bill,
    Generally, for the Concours classes we DO judge the cars as if they "just rolled off the showroom floor", because that is the only standard we have to go against.

    That is one reason why we take points off for having "dealer" installed undercoating, and take points off for NOT having the factory body "schutz" undercoating in the wheelhouses and behind the rear wheels.

    Now we generally do not worry about "over restoration", because everybody has a tendency to do this, however there are no bonus points for this either. By this I mean if you decide not to paint the bottom part of your distributor red(for a 1970 car), where it goes into the block, and leave it natural that would be fine. But, if the car sitting next to you has it painted, with the overspray, then that would be fine also.

    Our cars were not all built at the same plant, like the Corvettes were, therefore we also need to allow for plant differences. This means that some parts may have one or more painting/plating options, as we would have no way of knowing if all the parts came from a single manufacturer or from a supplier for another plant. A good example of this would be your 70 disc brake master cylinder. as it could be either black or natural, because both have been documented as being used on 70 Buick A-bodies.

    Basically we do not want these classes to get to the point (like they have with other brands) of worring about all the oversprays, factory paint "flubs", etc. If you want your car to have a cleaner appearance, then that would be considered "over restoration" and would be acceptable, within reason.

    For an example, we would allow stainless steel exhaust, but if it was buffed out to the point where we could shave with it, that would not be acceptable, because it would no longer have the "look" of original exhaust. The same thing would also apply to exterior paint.

    If you want to build a "Show Car" with everything shiny and glowing, with perfect paint, that is so glossy it looks wet, then this class would not be for you. A car built to those specs would do well for a regular car show, because it would have the "wow" look, but would do miserably for this class.

    I will also say this, this is the way the cars have been judged at all the events where I have judged the cars. It is basically how the AACA and BCA judges them, and I helped incorporate the same systems into the GSCA and BPG events to keep everything uniform. That way the same car would do very well at all the above events. But, I cannot say how a car would do at shows where I am not involved. For those events you should ask those judges what they are looking for.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  4. #29
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    Alright, my question to some of you show judges is:
    What things on a rearend housing do you deduct points for? All semi gloss black, all gloss black, painted except for center housing, correct bolts in cover, painted or unpainted drums, black or cast sway bar and shock color/style come to mind. Years back, I never gave this stuff a second thought and never dreamed so many questions could arise from a simple rearend housing. But we change don't we?
    1971 GS455
    1971 Riviera GS
    John Ayers

  5. #30
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    John,
    Basically anything that deviates from the way the car looked when it left the factory is a possible point deduction. We look for authenticity, workmanship, and condition. (Basically part correctness, fit, and finish.)

    When a car is judged there are 4 judges that look at different areas of the car and we have a maximum of 15 minutes to look it over. That includes any questions the judges may want to ask the team captain. Once finished, we move on to the next car.

    There is no "book" you can use to reference what is correct. Much of this knowledge has been learned from assembly manuals, and through looking at cars over the years, especially low mileage original cars, and even then we check the date codes of the parts to verify they are correct and have not been replaced, before adding this to our knowledge base. Plus our knowledge of these cars grows each year, as we acquire more information.

    We do allow some "slack" for different shades of black paint, but some guys fall into the trap of assuming the way an NOS part is painted/plated is the way it was when the car was built. I have seen some quote "Concours cars" where this got so carried away that the chassis looked like a patch work quilt.

    Generally, all the black underhood components were painted semi-gloss black, with the exception of the air cleaner, which has been proven to be a gloss black.

    Here are a few examples of common incorrect painting/plating that I have seen on "Concours" cars that would require point deductions;

    Black painted driveshafts (Some driveshafts used black stripes for ID purposes, so how could an assembly worker see a black stripe on a black driveshaft?)

    Gloss black radiator core supports, and upper radiator covers
    Gloss black inner fenders and bottom of hood
    Gloss black frames
    Gold Cad plated alternator pulleys
    Gold Cad plated hood hinges
    Gold Cad plated bolts, for the door latches
    Black Oxide plated trunk lid attaching bolts
    (Both the doors and trunk lids had the latches installed and the panels aligned on the shell before it was painted, therefore all should be painted body color)
    Body colored front fender attaching bolts (The fenders, and other front end components were installed by GM, after the shell was painted, and would all be black phosphate.)
    Non-painted drums/rotors for cars equipped with rallye wheels.
    Rear axles with the pumpkins painted cast color (Not to pick on George)
    Under body, floorpans/trunk floor painted body color

    The list goes on and on and on. And the really sad part is that often it costs less to do it correctly.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  6. #31
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    Duane

    I always thought( and I am not alone) that the alternator pulleys were plated silver zinc. What do you andf Brad say the finish should be?
    Last edited by flynbuick; 03-26-2006 at 02:16 PM.
    Jim Lore
    BPG 1037
    "If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear."

  7. #32
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    John,
    You changed your original question so I will answer it here.

    You asked, "What things on a rearend housing do you deduct points for? All semi gloss black, all gloss black, painted except for center housing, correct bolts in cover, painted or unpainted drums, black or cast sway bar and shock color/style come to mind. Years back, I never gave this stuff a second thought and never dreamed so many questions could arise from a simple rearend housing. But we change don't we?"

    Basically everything on a rear axle should be semi-gloss black, with the exception of the shocks, which were gray for most years. We have, in the past, accepted natural colored sway bars (for older restorations),but this may change in the future. Generally we try to be forgiving, so if we accepted something in years past, we generally note what is correct on the sheet and do not "spank" the guy the first year(no point deduction). Usually it is changed for the following year so the problem never arises again.

    We have also accepted rear axles that are natural colored on the front facing side, and semi-gloss black on the rearward facing side, for the guys that absolutely want to paint their rears as they "found" theirs to be painted.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  8. #33
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    Thanks Duane. I changed my original question because I decided it was too broad of a range. Since this was made a sticky, I thought being more specific would help myself and others in the future.
    There are so many versions of gloss black. It seems to me it would be hard to draw a line on which goes overboard. Guess it's a matter of experience of seeing the correct ones. I have known of some handing out shade charts to judges to make it less guess work.
    Again, I appreciate all the input from you experts. How good of a restoration ultimately hinges on the judges opinions, so you should be the ones handing out info.
    1971 GS455
    1971 Riviera GS
    John Ayers

  9. #34
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    Jim,
    I see you changed your question, but it was a good call. I made some inquiries and checked a few parts. It appears that the double grooved alternator pulleys had several different finishes available including gold Cad/zinc, silver Cad/zinc (basically looks like bare metal), and I even found one I took off a 70 GS that was gray phosphate.

    I also took the following picture from my original 71 Alternator that came with my 71 GSX. It had never been rebuilt, and still had the letter codes ink stamped on the housing. There is a gold Cad hood assembly at the top for comparison. This is the back side of my pulley and you can see that it basically looked like bare metal. The fan blades also were the same color.
    Duane
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  10. #35
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    Yes I said zinc di chromate originally but I should have said silver zinc. A silver zinc plated finish appears just like the pulley you show so we are on the same wavelength. I am also glad to see the latch does indeed bear the cad finish we assumed to be correct.


    There is nothing worse than thinking you are on the right track with a mammoth resto and learning at the last moment that you were mistaken about something not easily correctable. Keep the info tap turned on.
    Jim Lore
    BPG 1037
    "If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear."

  11. #36
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    Duane,
    I want to thank you for all your help on this topic. This thread has turned out to be far above my expectations and I hope it continues to do so. I learn something new everytime I visit this sight. I have another question after reading something you posted. You stated that the drums and rotors are to be painted on cars with rallye wheels. In another post I read that the front(outward facing side) of the drums/rotors were to be painted. Should the backside of the rotors be cast gray and the fronts be black, or should the rotors be completely black?

    Bill

  12. #37
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    Bill,
    No problem with helping here, this is how we learn, and we are all doing that, including me. Plus, I would much rather have the guys change something before the show, then have to knock points off, and make them change it once the car is completed. Another thing to remember is that we have 4 judges looking at the car at the same time, and we do bounce questions off each other. We also get paid real well for doing this , sometimes we even get a free water.

    Anyway, back to the drums, the assembly manual states the outer facing areas were painted black, so again it would be a judgement call as to how much black paint was actually sprayed on them. I imagine the inside surfaces would be natural cast, and again we would allow ranges "of coverage" for this item, as we do for the rear axles.

    I think George Steele posted a picture of this from a low mileage 72 car, but that is only one example and I would not want to "ass-ume" they were all painted the same way.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  13. #38
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    This is one of the many reasons I enjoy this board, is knowledable people sharing and helping those of us trying to make our cars right and not learning after we are finished that a small part is wrong and easily fixed during assembly. I am building a 71 X and many times do not even have to ask a question about how something should be done, just sit back and read. I do have a question about the aluminum brackets for the engine accessories. After I clean them up what is the best way to keep them looking correct, as in what finish to put on them? Thanks guys for all the help. Many questions have been answered in this thread.
    Mike


    Mike Williamson
    71 GSX Stage1
    67 GS 400

    BPG #1996

  14. #39
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    I see GSXstasy is back on ebay again. I also noticed that the rear sway bar is painted cast gray and it states that it was the #1 scoring GSX in the concours class at BG for the past 4 years. Hmmm.... This is an absolutely gorgeous car. I believe the last time it went $180,100. I can't believe this car hasn't sold. Anyone know the reserve?

    Bill

  15. #40
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    Bill:

    I aasume that cast color may be the basis for one of his deductions.


    Duane

    As you know I am getting an X ready for concours". Do we assume that even with some debate based on how some contend their original cars looked (without tailpipe paint) that the concours' Gardner exhaust package as delivered will result in a deduction unless the tail pipes are painted black from the rear axles housing to the outlet tip?
    Jim Lore
    BPG 1037
    "If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear."

  16. #41
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    Bill and Jim,

    "I aasume that cast color may be the basis for one of his deductions."

    "Do we assume that even with some debate based on how some contend their original cars looked (without tailpipe paint) that the concours' Gardner exhaust package as delivered will result in a deduction unless the tail pipes are painted black from the rear axles housing to the outlet tip?"

    The answers are No and No.

    As stated previously, we have no knowledge that the rear swaybars, or tailpipes were all painted black from the factory. That is why we ALLOW ranges of colors/gloss for specific parts, AND why we do not take any points deductions off of parts that could have come with different finishes.
    Duane

    PS. Guys, this is not a game to see who's car is better then the other guys. It is a study to see how close we can make our cars look like the way they were when they rolled out of the showroom. That's it, nothing more.

    A Gold Concours winner means that the car has earned between 400-385 points, and in my eyes they are all the same. Period.
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane
    Bill and Jim,

    "
    PS. Guys, this is not a game to see who's car is better then the other guys. It is a study to see how close we can make our cars look like the way they were when they rolled out of the showroom. That's it, nothing more.

    A Gold Concours winner means that the car has earned between 400-385 points, and in my eyes they are all the same. Period.

    Duane

    You cannot unring the bell with the GS Xtacy car plastering all over the internet that he has the best X in the world. Some of the rest of us are calling him out but in a friendly kind of way.
    Jim Lore
    BPG 1037
    "If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear."

  18. #43
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    Jim,
    I could care less who says they have the “best” GSX in the world, and to be honest, the one that many consider “the most correctly restored example” is only put on display, because the owner doesn’t feel the need to compete, and is more interested in quote, “sharing the wealth” and helping others. But, beyond that, this type of discussion has nothing to do with answering questions about the correctness of a restoration or how cars are judged at the Concours level.

    One of the main reasons this Class was put together in the first place, was to have cars of this caliber judged against a standard and not each other. The idea was to build a sense of camaraderie and friendship, and it works. It’s really cool to see how owners of these cars welcome new people to the ranks and help each other, including myself.

    I don’t think this “My dog is better then your dog” way of thinking belongs on this thread.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  19. #44
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    At age 62 and climbing, it is refreshing to see that Judges try to devote the time to a class of cars that deserve consideration as concours cars and measured against a standard of correctness and excellence in attempts to reach perfection -- which will never happen unless you have a time capsule with a car from Flint in it preserved. It is the attempt that deserves the credit not necessarily the result. Keep up the good work. This is my goal as an Olds Judge and I will keep trying each year and hoping to do a job that will someday get me free water. Thanks Duane. PS I am printing this info so I can Judge my own car. John
    John

  20. #45
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    Thanks John.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane
    Jim,
    I could care less who says they have the “best” GSX in the world, and to be honest, the one that many consider “the most correctly restored example” is only put on display, because the owner doesn’t feel the need to compete, and is more interested in quote, “sharing the wealth” and helping others. But, beyond that, this type of discussion has nothing to do with answering questions about the correctness of a restoration or how cars are judged at the Concours level.

    One of the main reasons this Class was put together in the first place, was to have cars of this caliber judged against a standard and not each other. The idea was to build a sense of camaraderie and friendship, and it works. It’s really cool to see how owners of these cars welcome new people to the ranks and help each other, including myself.

    I don’t think this “My dog is better then your dog” way of thinking belongs on this thread.
    Duane
    You are absolutely right, Duane, it doesn't belong here. I apologize. But the standards that we must use for a guideline for the restorations do, which is why I started the thread in the first place. I am restoring this car for a guy who lives 1,000 miles away from me so it is very important that I get it right the first time. Although I cannot guarantee that he win a gold everytime, I feel it is my job to do everything I can to make it happen. Traveling that far to paint a sway bar a different color could get expensive

    Bill

  22. #47
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    Bill,
    Not a problem. There are two things that everyone needs to keep in mind;

    1. Is that as we learn more, the restorations get better and better. Case in point, we did not know when the heavy duty shocks changed over until I did my research last year and published it in the BPG newsletter "The Buildsheet". So how could older restorations have included this info when it was not known at the time when they were built. Restorations are and always have been a "work in progress", especially at this level.

    2. The idea that you will get everything right the first time is an un-attainable goal, and that point should be "explained" to the owners if you are building a car for someone. There are something like 50,000 pieces needed to assemble one of these cars, and we don't always catch everything that is incorrect the first time through. With only 15 minutes to look at a car there is no way that is possible.

    Case in point, and I will use a current example for this one. When John Arangio first brought out his car, he had me pre-judge it a few days before the show. Now I do this for anyone that asks, so there is nothing special about that request. We looked the car over quickly and found about 15 small things that were incorrect. (This number of deductions would have clearly knocked him out of the Gold spot.) John spent the next 3 days picking through parts bins and cleaning/painting/installing everything before the show. The car did win a Gold the first time out, but boy was he tired. In later shows a few more items were discovered to be incorrect, and John changed them. But, the car got better each year, because the owner was interested in learning and took the time to correct things.

    Again, these are works in progress, and we are still learning.
    Duane
    Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors

  23. #48
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    Just to add to Duane's comments, we as judges do NOT try to kill a car. I look at it as a means to help the owner correct minor flaws and as such, have a better car in the end.

    It is not possible to list every single item that may be wrong on a car when judging, especially in just 15 minutes. For that reason, the judging team may find other items wrong on a car the next time it is showed and list them for the owner to correct. This gives the owner a workable list to go from and correct instead of seeing 1000 entries that appear as Mt. Everest to him/her. I would much rather give an owner a list of "A, B and C" to correct and then the next time out "D, E and F" than to list the entire alphabet in one fell swoop.
    Brad Conley. 70 GSX Prototype, 71 Black GSX, 87 GNX Prototype, 75 Skyhawk, 2 86 GN's, 72 Centurion Convert and a host of other Buicks!

  24. #49
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    Judges laying it on the line! I love it!! Thanks guys. You are right in all instances. Now, I hope we can get this Sticky thread headed back in the proper direction.

    Now what color was that front sway bar again?
    1971 GS455
    1971 Riviera GS
    John Ayers

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooods
    Judges laying it on the line! I love it!! Thanks guys. You are right in all instances. Now, I hope we can get this Sticky thread headed back in the proper direction.

    Now what color was that front sway bar again?
    In the case of the car I am working on, the front one was clearly black but I found no paint on the rear one.

    Bill

 

 
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