Need advise about upper control arm shaft (offset or no offset)

Glad, that I was able to pull my car out of the storage in time before the curfew went in effect. However, I cannot get it to an alignment shop to get the actual numbers for camber and caster.
I want to use the time to redo the front suspension. I already have all parts at hand including regular and offset control arm shafts. I cannot measure caster, but measured camber with 1° negative on both sides. Here are some pics showing the "shim-situation" on both sides.

It looks to me like there was not much sagging of the frame, as I have just 1° negative and still shims in front and rear. As there are on both sides more shims in the front, I would assume, that caster was set to factory specs (Negative). My conclusion would be to use regular non offset shafts, as I could just swap the shims from front to back in order to get more positive caster. Am I missing something?

 

Spent some more time today, to try to become more accurate.
Camber on both sides is 0.4° to 0.5° negative.
Don't know what was wrong with my eyes yesterday, but here is how the shims are:
LEFT: Front 3 shims 0.1 each, Rear 1 shim 0.1
RIGHT: Front 3 shims 0.1 each, Rear 3 shims 0.1 each
The Offset of the new shafts is 0.09" which equals 0.5° camber
I feel like I will not have any issues to set positive caster, but I am afraid to get to much positive camber while going with the offset shafts.
Your thoughts?

 

Generally, I would think you could move a shim from front to back without changing camber and giving you more positive caster. I would double-check toe though. I'm not sure about the offset shafts. I've never used them.

 

You can use a piece of steel or pipe to set against the nubs of the ball joints stick out over the nut then use your angle finder to roughly measure caster.........just against the rotor or flat ofvthe brake drum will show camber............just make sure to have full weight on the control arms

 

I will bring the car to an alignment shop once I am done with everything, to get caster, camber and toe set accurately.
Still, I am undecided which shafts to use. I am afraid of making the wrong choice and ending up pulling the upper arms again to change to the shaft needed to get the front end set appropriately.
So what you guys think? One vote will be enough to tilt me one way or the other

 

If you have an old car, odds are you can use the offset shafts without too much of a problem but I'd bet it will align without them. Too bad they don't make those offset shafts with extra caster, offset out in the front and offset in at the back. That would give you good caster for sure.

Be sure to ask for positive caster, as much as they can give you and a no more than 0 camber. Personally, I like -1/2° camber. With radials, these old cars can handle pretty good.

 

I went standard. The manual say 3/4" shim pack max. And I had 0.4" or so all around. You have lots of adjustment based on my 69 gs. Imo

 

Agree.... there are not a lot of shims on Ralf's car. I don't feel offset shafts are necessary. However that could change once new bushings are installed, but I would use the standard shafts.

 

That confuses me. I understood that Offset shafts are used when you have a sagging frame, resulting in to much negative Camber (and there are no more shims left to be removed). Aren't Offset shafts made to adjust Camber towards positive?
Anyway, I appreciate all your input, which confirmed my own tendency towards standard, non Offset shafts.

I agree, but guess, that those guys rather sell tubular control arms which are designed for more positve caster in the first place. Those however are not an option for me, as I want the look to stay "original"

 

Yes - they are marked, usually one side has "wheel side". But they can be installed either way.

 

I thought about that, too. Black painted one is stock:

Mechanically it will work. Have not done an accurate measurement, but my visual judgement says that you would get the same amount of offset, just towards negative camber.
I watched a video of a guy from global west, stating that they would use the offset shaft for every stock rebuilt of A-bodies they do.

 

So its basically 0.25" or so 'built in shim"?

 

Actually, if installed they way intended, it is a 0.09" removed shim

 

Got a question: How in the world am I supposed to get the rubber both stay seated properly on the lower ball joint? The lower section is always sliding back up. I have the kit from P-S-T.

 

You don't sweat it. The arm is fully extended and once you are at ride height it will settle in. It isn't a seal as in a tight seal. It is a seal as an umbrella. It is going to move around as the suspension travels. The only ones I've seen that really seal are on 4x4s and have crimped bands that fit into a groove on the ball joint.

 

Thanks Greg! I will follow your recommendation.
I changed my mind in regards to offset vs stock upper control arm shaft and installed the offset shafts. I measured the geometry and did some "paper investigations" with sketches. It looks like the offset shafts gives you slightly more caster at only half amount of negative camber with the same shims in the rear, compared to stock.


Doing the bushings was not as bad as I expected. Doing a little pushing with the help of my friend, the 20to press and some pulling with some threaded rod did the trick.

For compressing the spring I bought a relatively inexpensive tool to be used inside the spring. Works very well, I upgraded it with an axial needle bearing for less friction. As I am full of respect of the huge potential energy stored in a compressed spring, I go with belt and suspenders, securing the spring for the time it is waiting for re-installation.

I got the kit from PST and looking at the tie rods, they seem to be much more beefier, compared to what was installed. Do not know which brand was installed, but assume MOOG, as all ball joints where marked as MOOG problem solver.

 

Finished installation yesterday and was able to get a spot on a hoist in a friends workshop and access to the proper equipment for front end alignment.
It took me almost 4 hours, as I needed several rounds of adding/removing shims in order to get the alignment right.
I knew beforehand that in order to get positive caster I would need to max out shim thickness at the rear bolts. In order to minimize the number of shims I had some shims water-cut out of different thickness of stainless steel.

On the passenger side I used 19mm and on the driver side I even had to go slightly beyond the recommended max of 3/4" and used 23mm. That gave me about 3/4° positive caster on both sides.
In regards to camber I needed 1mm shim on the passenger side and 12mm on the driver side, resulting in negative camber of 24' left and 42' right side.
Toe in was set to 6' each.


At least on the passenger side the offset shaft turned out to be necessary in order to not have to much negative camber. On the driver side I probably would have been better off w/o, as with stock shafts I would not have needed so many shims.
I am not 100% happy with the result and the big difference in necessary shim thickness driver- vs. passenger side to set camber.

Driving experience however improved quite a bit, which is not singular a result of the alignment. I switched to PST polygraphite bushings for lower and upper control arm and also the stabilizer bar. Also went with Bilstein shocks front and rear (the shocks installed had no dampening in rebound left at all ).

What I do not understand is, that now the car is lower on the left side, compared to the right side. It is visually obvious and is about 1" in difference.

Any ideas / advice from you guys?

 

Are you 100% sure the springs are in the correct clock position? Are they seated correctly at the top and bottom?

 

I generally wouldn't get too concerned for at least a month. New springs sometimes take a little while to settle in. If it is still skewed in a month, I have usually used a twist-in spring booster to get the droopy side up to the same level. If it is the rear, they make bigger ones for those. You could claim the high side down to match the lower side. Either way, don't panic just yet.

Good job on the alignment, too!